"Tauric" Template question

[relytdan]

ok so the Tauric says take a humanoid top, and an animal bottom
using the savage species pg. 133 version of this template..

“Half-dragon” <mm 146> is an inherited template that can be added to any
living, corporeal creature -type change to dragon

then change the humanoid top to monstrous humanoid < feral template > to re-qualify
to change the animal bottom to magical beast <Shadow template> to re-qualify after the dragon is applied...

would it be legal by RAW
- no need to care about the dragon parent alignment conflict
as Tauric does not seem to care.
the question is because of how tauric benefits from the special abilities/qualities would it get the benefit of both dragons...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No.

Refer to Savage Species pages 142-143, The Type Pyramid. A creature of a given type cannot be switched to a creature of a type lower on the pyramid.

Edit: You can still apply Half-Dragon and Shadow Creature after Tauric has been applied and it will work just fine.

[Segev]

I suggest simply applying Half-Dragon to the combined Tauric creature, if you want it that way.


My issue is that Tauric doesn't seem to have its LA explained well. Neither the Hippogriff nor the Hobgoblin have LA+2, and yet that's what's listed for the sample one. Am I missing something?

[relytdan]

in this case we are building a 3.5 monster and under 3.5 its going to somewhat ignore the pyramid scheme -
however, even in the MM2 216 and mm2 3.5 update p36 LA Base humanoid +3 - short of the various other updates - it does not care what each half goes through as long as its the appropriate type when going into tauric..

so in theory if I took the animal and made it draconinc - type change magical beast - then half dragon type change dragon then shadow type change back to magical beast... that's the theory

in the end yes could just wait until tauric was done then add half dragon to it...
so IF one does get the dragon within the animal portion and then takes it as the add on to tauric after the fact - this presents 2 half dragon bits that should impart their effects...

[Immabozo]

in this case we are building a 3.5 monster and under 3.5 its going to somewhat ignore the pyramid scheme -
however, even in the MM2 216 and mm2 3.5 update p36 LA Base humanoid +3 - short of the various other updates - it does not care what each half goes through as long as its the appropriate type when going into tauric..

so in theory if I took the animal and made it draconinc - type change magical beast - then half dragon type change dragon then shadow type change back to magical beast... that's the theory

in the end yes could just wait until tauric was done then add half dragon to it...
so IF one does get the dragon within the animal portion and then takes it as the add on to tauric after the fact - this presents 2 half dragon bits that should impart their effects...

Incorrect. As non-updated 3.0 material is legal in 3.5 and ESPECIALLY because you are using the very book the type pyramid is from, for the template, the type pyramid is gonna be hard to get around. However, there are templates that get you BACK to humanoid type, but this takes template stacking shenanigans. And that is fun in theory, but it stops there.

[karkus]

OP is obviously designing a TPK... :smalltongue:

[Darrin]

Another issue: shadow creature was updated in Lords of Madness. It no longer switches every type to magical beast.

[Segev]

Again, I suggest applying the Tauric template to the base creatures first, THEN applying "Half Dragon" to the whole creature.

[Vaz]

I'm honestly finding it hard work to follow the train of thought in this thread.

So-

Provided at the time of applying the Tauric template your Base humanoid part is of either the Monstrous Humanoid or Humanoid types and the Base Creature is either an Animal, Magical Beast or Vermin with 4 or more legs, you are fine.

Applying Half Dragon before Tauric to the base creature renders it unavailable for selection, as you are no longer animal, magical beast or vermin. The Shadow Template, which was updated in Lords of Madness, does not set all to Magical Beast. Even if you could, aside from the gross physical qualities like Wings and physical stat ups, you miss out on the whole Breath Weapon thing.

[relytdan]

so I have an Animal - which should become a magical beast
here is my counter to the previous thoughts...
Half-Troll (FF 93)
Applied to any outsider
type changes to giant

THE TYPE PYRAMID (ss 142)
1: Construct, Outsider, Undead
2: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
3: Aberration
4: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
5: Fey, Giant
6: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
7: Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

If the above template can "Force" the change from Outsider to Giant, then the others that state changes to "X" should also -


Example:
Type: Animal

Draconic (RotD 74)
Applied to any living, corporeal creature
Type not changed -gains dragonblood subtype

Spellwarped (MM3 162)
Applied to any corporeal animal
type changes to aberration

HALF-CELESTIAL (MM 144)
Applied any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or higher
type changes to outsider

Half-Troll (FF 93)
Applied to any outsider
type changes to giant

Half-dragon (mm 146)
Applied to any living, corporeal creature
type changes to dragon

Shadow (MoP 190), (LoM 167)
Applied to any corporeal creature
type changes to “magical beast.”

Applied to any dragon
Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts
but otherwise the creature type is unchanged.

Now with the shadow creature - having the a slight variation in words from 1 book to another and book - one could argue it maintains the animal and gains the other types in addition to -either way. it should become a magical beast

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

From the 3.5 Shadow Creature template in Lords of Madness:

Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this template
become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is
unchanged. Shadow creatures encountered on the Material
Plane have the extraplanar subtype and are native to the Plane
of Shadow.
If the creature's type is Animal or Vermin at the time this template is applied then it changes to Magical Beast. If the creature the template is applied to is already any other type besides those, then its type is unchanged.

If you're trying to cheese Tauric, just use Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and call it a day.

[relytdan]

From the 3.5 Shadow Creature template in Lords of Madness:

If the creature's type is Animal or Vermin at the time this template is applied then it changes to Magical Beast. If the creature the template is applied to is already any other type besides those, then its type is unchanged.

If you're trying to cheese Tauric, just use Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and call it a day.

the point was not if I was trying to cheese Tauric - but rather the Template Application whether using 3.0 rules of the Pyramid or 3.5 which ignores the pyramid -" Paragon creature" = EPIC - this is an animal - non epic.

So unless there is valid argument as to why the following template can not by RAW either 3.0 / 3.5 change type from Outsider (1) to Giant (5) I will go with if the template says " changes to x" then the type will become X

Half-Troll (FF 93)
Applied to any outsider
type changes to giant

THE TYPE PYRAMID (ss 142)
1: Construct, Outsider, Undead
2: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
3: Aberration
4: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
5: Fey, Giant
6: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
7: Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

If the above template can "Force" the change from Outsider to Giant, then the others that state changes to "X" should also -

[Vaz]

The type pyramid never even comes into play. It is 3.0, in a 3.5 game. ThebTauric template is 3.5 as of the MM2 update.

There is no need to bring it into play.

It doesn't help that its hard to understand your question.

A Half Troll template explicitly makes you Giant as an outsider. Even if the type pyramid is in use, then the worsing of half troll explicitly overrides the pyramids general ruling.

That does not mean it works with other templates though unless it explictly changes Type Y to type Z.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

the point was not if I was trying to cheese Tauric - but rather the Template Application whether using 3.0 rules of the Pyramid or 3.5 which ignores the pyramid -" Paragon creature" = EPIC - this is an animal - non epic.

So unless there is valid argument as to why the following template can not by RAW either 3.0 / 3.5 change type from Outsider (1) to Giant (5) I will go with if the template says " changes to x" then the type will become X

Half-Troll (FF 93)
Applied to any outsider
type changes to giant

THE TYPE PYRAMID (ss 142)
1: Construct, Outsider, Undead
2: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
3: Aberration
4: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
5: Fey, Giant
6: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
7: Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

If the above template can "Force" the change from Outsider to Giant, then the others that state changes to "X" should also -

Every book is written under the assumption that you only have that book plus the Core three, and the type pyramid does not appear in the core rules. Additionally, Fiend Folio and Savage Species were published within two months of each other. Savage Species had three primary authors, Fiend Folio had seven, and no person appears on both. This means that when development of Fiend Folio was completed and it went to editing (i.e. proofreading), Savage Species was not published yet so none of the Fiend Folio authors were aware of the Type Pyramid rules that it added to the game. Finally, you're using a template from Savage Species, this is the book that the template's most recent version can be found in, so you have to abide by all of the rules in that book, including the type pyramid.

[relytdan]

Every book is written under the assumption that you only have that book plus the Core three .
Not true.
and the type pyramid does not appear in the core rules. Additionally, Fiend Folio and Savage Species were published within two months of each other. Savage Species had three primary authors, Fiend Folio had seven, and no person appears on both..

Monster Manual II - September 1, 2002 - Tauric introduced
Savage Species -February 1, 2003 -Type Pyramid -Tauric reprinted
Monster Manual 2 update -02/16/2006 - Tauric updated
D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update booklet - Tauric updated
Fiend Folio -April 1, 2003 -half troll template introduced
Fiend Folio update -02/16/2006 -no update to half troll


This means that when development of Fiend Folio was completed and it went to editing (i.e. proofreading), Savage Species was not published yet so none of the Fiend Folio

That's not true for any company that does any sort of product.
A employee is working on savage, and they know B employee working on feind - you know what they sure as heck knew and probly dicussed it many times.


Finally, you're using a template from Savage Species, this is the book that the template's most recent version can be found in, so you have to abide by all of the rules in that book, including the type pyramid.

I think you should check your resources before making a bold statement on what version is what - yes it was stated in the original post, savage was used - and in the MM2 and later updates its not changed on how it works just a few minor fixes on their part - so TECHNICALLY I used the latest release of the template- especially in my earlier post where I stated
..
"however, even in the MM2 216 and mm2 3.5 update p36 LA Base humanoid +3"

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're looking for an excuse to ignore the rules (i.e. cheat), you'll find no support here. Justify it to yourself any way you want, but cheating is cheating.