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View Full Version : Saurian Shamans: Dinos and Reptiles are OP? Oh My!



Rej_D
2013-09-01, 01:56 PM
After playing a dozen or so Pathfinder sessions, my seasoned gaming buddies have asked me to GM a campaign for them. Probably do Legacy of Fire.
An experienced Pathfinder player asked me to pre-approve his planned character build -- a Saurian Shaman Druid. He plans to take the Shaping Focus feat, as well.
This player is an excellent role player but, like me, has many power-gaming tendencies...so when he began describing the archetype, my EXPLOIT alarms started going off in my head. Use ANY dino or reptile form...flyer, tank, sneaker, swimmer, DPS? Why on earth would anyone take any other shaman archetype, other than for flavor? Did the developers think this through? I started researching.
My reservations grew. My dino rules research left me doubting how dinos could have become extinct IRL. Per the rules, dinos are very powerful compared to their mammal equivalents, for instance. I ascribe to the "dinos were cold blooded" theory, so I plan to treat them that way... but I see no rules that ascribe penalties to cold-blooded creatures under cold environmental conditions. As a stickler for detail, that seems like a bad oversight to me. On a side note, my player indicated he could simply overcome the limits of an endothermic metabolism by casting Endure Elements. I'm not convinced that the spell would have such an effect, but I could be convinced.
I like to reward my players for thinking through their builds, so I am very hesitant to interfere with a Paizo build. I am also about game balance. I understand the game balance issue can always be addressed by "upping the competition". However, this may not help the other players who could feel underpowered after focusing less on power builds and more on role playing.
Thus, my questions:
-Are Saurian Shamans overpowered and in need of some nerfing? I'm considering requiring the player to pick from reptiles/pterasaurs, or land/sea dinos by splitting Saurian into two builds.
-I plan to create house rules for cold blooded creatures that would invoke some type of STR and DEX penalty, depending on how cold it is (up to -4, I suppose). Should such effects be nullified, or perhaps reduced, by Endure Elements?

prototype00
2013-09-01, 05:10 PM
Okay 2 things here:

1. Druids in general are objectively better than a lot of classes. See here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/E4IVQ7hQwmd9fuZnPsj.gif

So basically, if you are designing a combat to challenge the druid, the rogue and the bard are going to gripe. Not much you can do about that.

2. As far as internal balance in the class goes, the other Shaman types are pretty poor yardsticks for how a good druid should look (in that, Saurian shaman excepted, they are all terrible.)

I know people are big into flavour and stuff (lookit me! I am a bat-fanboy, whee! I've got two shapes that I can access early and both of them are terrible!), but seriously, don't even look at the other Shaman types when measuring balance.

When compared to most other archetypes, they come in as pretty good but not overpowered (man, I should tell you about the trick you can pull as a Cave Druid, that is some optimized stuff right there).

What are the other players playing, if I may ask?

prototype00

Greenish
2013-09-01, 05:21 PM
-I plan to create house rules for cold blooded creatures that would invoke some type of STR and DEX penalty, depending on how cold it is (up to -4, I suppose). Should such effects be nullified, or perhaps reduced, by Endure Elements?3.5 has rules for cold-blooded creatures, or, well, for cold-blooded kobolds (in Races of the Dragon). They don't make any sense, and relate mostly to the amount of stuff they have to eat, though.

Accepting the premise that dinosaurs are cold-blooded (in your world), maybe you could treat them as Fatigued/Exhausted (I mean, with the same mechanical penalties) for the first few rounds if they haven't been particularly active before the combat. Endure Elements should probably remove the penalties, since "being stiff to the point of penalized stats" doesn't sound like "existing comfortably" to me.

Rej_D
2013-09-02, 11:00 AM
What are the other players playing, if I may ask?



Thanks for your thoughts. There are two other players. One is doing some type of dervish. The other will likely be a ranger for ranged dps.

Rej_D
2013-09-02, 11:04 AM
Endure Elements should probably remove the penalties, since "being stiff to the point of penalized stats" doesn't sound like "existing comfortably" to me.

Yeah, I've come to the realization that the other shamans are kind of cruddy, rather than dino shamans being ridiculous (compared to other druids). So I think I will allow the Endure Elements to remove any cold-blooded penalties I may use.

Thanks!

Big Fau
2013-09-02, 11:09 AM
Yeah, I've come to the realization that the other shamans are kind of cruddy, rather than dino shamans being ridiculous (compared to other druids). So I think I will allow the Endure Elements to remove any cold-blooded penalties I may use.

Thanks!

Just a note, most paleontologists are currently agreed that a lot of dinosaurs were avian and not reptilian. Some may have been reptilian, but things like the various raptors and relatives of the T-Rex are currently considered to be related to birds.

Gwendol
2013-09-02, 01:22 PM
Saurians are peculiar in that they offer the only Large form for alter self accessible to humanoids that I'm aware of.

Crustypeanut
2013-09-02, 02:21 PM
I'm personally in the camp of "If he powergames, powergame back in a way that doesn't hurt the other players". In this case, look at what he can transform into - the different types of dinos. Design scenarios that would make him have to think strategically, but also let him have his fun sometimes.

I'm -very- likely to have a Sauran Shaman in my own upcoming campaign - I'm allowing it because the player made an absolutely beautiful background story - not to mention the region in Golarion where dinosaurs exist is not far from where my campaign is being ran (Not far from Legacy of Fire, in fact!)

You also need to remember that wild shape /shape shifting in general has been nerfed in pathfinder - and Sauran Shamans get it TWO levels late, at level 6. Though at level 6 they can turn into a Huge Dino/Reptile, as per Beast Shape III..

So lets look at that spell.

Huge = Easy to Touch with spells, but brutal in melee.
Diminutive - Opposite.

But then again.. thats a lot of abilities they have access to.. Burrow.. Fly.. Poison.. etc.. Ok well, nevermind. That is pretty strong. XD

Anyways, I wanted to bring up the Shaping Focus Feat:


Benefit: If you are a multiclassed druid, your wild shape ability is calculated as though your druid level were four higher, to a maximum level equal to your character level.

Special: This feat has no effect if you are not a multiclassed druid.

So, at level 6, he won't be acting as a 12th level Druid when shapeshifting into dinos - does he plan on taking fighter/barbarian levels?

Rej_D
2013-09-10, 06:05 PM
Oops, sorry for delay, Crustypeanut. Been offline a while. He has no plan to take fighter or barbarian levels. Thanks for your comments!