Good Star Wars Media? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

snoopy13a

2013-09-01, 08:35 PM

I'll try and go from chronological order of production:

Really Old School

Marvel Comic Books--Not really familiar with these, was too young at the time.

Splinter of the Mind's Eye--really old-school novel involving Luke and Vader, not too familiar with it.

The early 80s Han Solo and Lando stories--these are basically old school science fiction stories with Han or Lando as the protagonists. Because the entire "EU" wasn't fleshed out, the feel is much different than the later novels.

The Ewok made-for-TV movies--worth checking out if you liked the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi. The second movie starts out pretty hardcore for a special aimed at little kids, was a shock to me back in 2nd grade.

The Ewok and Droids comics and cartoon shows--spin-offs in the mid-80s with Saturday morning cartoons and comics for little kids (at the time Marvel had a kid-orientated print called Star Comics, probably to build a base to sell comics later). Again, worth checking out if (1) you can actually find them and (2) you liked the Ewoks and/or C3P0 and R2D2

Early 90s and beyond

X-Wing and TIE Fighter Video Games -- in my opinion the best Star Wars video games. Not sure if you can get them to run on modern systems, however.

Dark Horse Star Wars comics -- I'm not a huge fan. Some, like Dark Empire and Empire's End really laid the foundation for Force cheesiness. The Knights of the Old Republic adventures, on the other hand, are kinda cool. They have more of a fantasy feel than sci-fi.

The Thawn Trilogy by Zahn -- considered the highlight of the EU (expanded universe). I think they are a bit overrated, but Zahn is the best of the Star Wars novelists. This trilogy may have saved the Star Wars franchise.

X-Wing series -- lots of space battles, little force. Little screen time for main characters. Writing isn't bad. A good change of pace from the usual novels

Non-Zahn Star Wars novels -- really, really vary in quality

Other Zahn Star Wars novels--worth checking out, simply because he's the best of the bunch

The New Jedi Order novels--I've avoided these, ask someone else.

Knights of the Old Republic video games-- Star Wars RPG, good if you like RPGs. Set in the distant past. There's also a MMO set during this period which has a good story but nothing else.

warty goblin

2013-09-01, 08:57 PM

Things I like about the original trilogy ...

An aesthetic that combines swords & sorcery with retro science fiction.
Tight pacing and snappy dialogue.
Cool villains.
Decent stories that are not intellectually challenging.
A feeling of epicness and scale.
Intense action scenes.

The aesthetic you're looking for is Sword & Planet, also sometimes named Planetary Romance. It's a far better source for such things than Star Wars, particularly recent Star Wars. Recent Star Wars is a perfect example of what terrible things may happen when a truly dedicated fanbase exists.

For actual Sword and Planet, I recommend reading Leigh Brackett. Her Book of Skaith trilogy has about three thousand times more excellently weird stuff than Star Wars, the writing's snappy, and it has some smart post-colonial narrative undertones. Plus Eric John Stark is a vastly more fun protagonist than Luke 'whitebread' Skywalker. Burroughs is a solid choice as well, and I think Moorcock did some Sword & Planet stuff at one point, though I've not been able to find copies.

Gadora

2013-09-04, 04:40 PM

Outside of Zahn, Stackpole, and Allston, I'm pretty much uninterested in the EU these days.

That said, I really enjoyed the MedStar duology, by Michael Reeves and Steve Perry. My quick and dirty one sentence explanation is that it's more or less Clone Wars M*A*S*H. In fact, I think I'm due for a reread after I finish the the two books I've currently got lined up.

HamHam

2013-09-04, 05:02 PM

What are some good things to come out of the Star Wars universe other than the Original Trilogy? I'm looking for books, comics, games, and everything else.

Both Clone Wars cartoons.

KOTOR, KOTOR2, TOR mmo (free 2 play now, I recommend the Jedi Knight, Scoundrel, and Imperial Agent storylines in particular. Sith Warrior is pretty much what you would expect if that's your thing (although a lightside Sith Warrior can be pretty funny)).

The KOTOR comics aren't bad. A lot of the older comics are decent as well, you can get the big ass omnibus editions for pretty cheap. Tales of the Jedi is one of my favorites.

Star Wars SAGA if you want an RPG.

BWR

2013-09-04, 05:33 PM

I'm something of a SW fan so I'm a bit biased.

Games: Kotor 1, but especially 2. One was more polished but 2, despite being slightly unfinished, had way better story and characters.
The old X-wing and TIE Fighter games
Jedi Knight III: Jedi Academy. Ignore the stupid story, it's the most fun you will ever have playing a Jedi and slicing enemies with lightsabers, zapping them with lightning, force choking, etc. (unlike **** like Force Unleashed, most mooks like Stormtroopers die almost instantly with lightsaber or lightning attacks)

Books:
Aaron Allston's X-wing: Wraith stories are good.
All of Matthew Stover's stuff. "Revenge of the Sith" details a bit more about Anakin's thoughts and reasons for doing what he did, adding some much needed depth. "Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor" was excellent. "Shatterpoint" is a bloody, dirty, nasty "Heart of Darkness in SW" story featuring Mace Windu, who is a bigger badass here than he has been shown anywhere else. And "Traitor" from the New Jedi Order series. The rest of the NJO is mostly crap, but this one is excellent. Read it. If you are unfamiliar with the NJO, read a quick wiki summary and read this one book because it is probably the best thing ever written for SW.

Comics:
Haven't read all of it but The Clone Wars comics had some good stories. Lots of it is now contradicted by the animated series, which is sad because the comics were generally better written and made more sense.
"Knights of the Old Republic". The first story arc was great, mostly good art. Got a bit worse towards the end.
"Dark Times", sadly hiatused and now, IIRC, cancelled, was the best. Darker, grimmer, and excellent art (by someone who actually seems to have studied how bodies move and how sword fights look).

Stay well away from
Anything by Kevin J. Anderson. His Young Jedi Knights stories weren't too bad in a Teen Titans kind of way. But he is responsible for the Sun Crusher, a ship with invincible armor, sun-blowing-up torpedoes in the size of a small shuttlecraft. And Kyp Durron, the even-more-powerful-than-Luke-brooding-fall-to-the-Dark-but-amazingly-recover Force user.
Among other atrocities.

The Legacy Comics.
A sort of reboot of the original concept, even if it is set nearly 200 years after the original movies. Cade Skywalker is is a grim, edy gritty bounty hunter with a narc problem, super powerful with the Force, wants to be both Light and Dark and for some reason is allowed too. The bad guys are stupid, the good guys are stupid, there are miraculously a bunch more Clone War survivors which didn't bother to make themselves known before now. the reborn Jedi are exterminated yet again, you have a 'gray' Force-using faction that serve the Empire, which is totally not as evil as the last empire because empires are cooler than republics and evil stupid new Sith. Mostly terrible stories and annoying characters. And you have Darth Fanservice (http://www.comicvine.com/darth-talon/4005-45363/). Yes, she really does (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Talon?file=Darth_Talon_LECG.jpg)dress like that.

Karen Travis. her Republic Commandp books and the drek she wrote for Legacy of the Force. The first one, "Republic Commando: Hard Contact" is pretty decent. The rest get increasingly enamored with Clones and Mandalorians, especially Commandos. I love the RC game and think they look awesome, but you can practically hear Travis' screaming orgasms as she furiously wanks them. Also, Jedi are evil, immoral, stupid, indistinguishable from Sith, incompetant, inhuman, cheaters and plain bad. Mandalorians (and clones, which are just Mandalorians in another form) are awesome, perfect, cool, honest, great and only the truly evil would think that a culture that revolves around combat and conquest is anything but the best environment for raising kids in, their armor is suddenly immune to lightsabers, they are teh awesumest warriors and no one can beat them in honorable comabat and nothing they can do is dishonorable and cheating, lying, treason, assassination, murder, torture, whatever is ok because they're Mandalorians.

/rant.

Gadora

2013-09-04, 05:46 PM

Oh, HamHam's post reminded me of something. d6 Star Wars really does a good job capturing the feel of the movies, if you want an RPG. If you do some digging online, you can even find a large fan project that was undertaken to convert all the stats of ships, items, weapons, droids, etc. from d20 Star Wars and SAGA books into d6.

Asmodai

2013-09-04, 05:58 PM

I'd recommend most of the stuff by Zahn or Stackpole. I especially enjoyed Stackpole's run on the X-wing novels and comics, the Allston series left me cold.

In addition to that, i'd try Crimson Empire from the Dark Horse line. I've found it rather swanky, while the sequel was a tad underwhelming.

As far as games go, most of the older Lucasarts stuff was great - especially the X-Wing series where special points go to Tie Fighter (where you play the Empire Ace) and the final game X-Wing Alliance that sucesfully melds your own storyline of a smuggler with being a pilot for the Alliance, culminating with the Second Death Star run into its belly.

Outside Lucasarts the later Jedi Knight games and KOTOR were pretty good. KOTOR will probably be the best experience as far as exploration and interaction with the setting go.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-04, 05:59 PM

I can personally recommend Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, the two Knights of the Old Republic games (get the Restored Content Mod for 2), and maybe the X-Wing novels if you don't mind hilariously stilted dialog with your excellent dogfighting.

That's honestly about it. The video games are of a significantly higher average quality than the novels, I've noticed.

Oh, and pick one Rogue Squadron video game and play that.

Zaydos

2013-09-04, 06:34 PM

I'll just say Stackpole is the best I've seen. Zahn was alright (but the more I think about the Thrawn Trilogy the more I realize it started things that didn't feel in line with Star Wars's story). Zahn might be a bit better for what you're looking for, but as Stackpole's big thing (the X-Wing series books) tended to focus more on space battles than sword and sorcery but managed to get some of the same feel.

And I'll second the suggestion of looking into Planetary Romances too.

PairO'Dice Lost

2013-09-04, 06:43 PM

Stay well away from

The Legacy Comics.

Those, and pretty much anything else set or published after the New Jedi Order series. That's the point at which they decided to Grimdark-ify the EU (the New Jedi Order series is all about killing off old characters, making the good guys look bad, and just generally not being all that fun), blatantly screw with the canon (what happened to the Sith, what's possible with the Force, the role of the Celestials, etc.), and just throw random stuff into the EU to see what sticks (Dark Nest trilogy? Star Wars + Zerg. Fate of the Jedi series? Star Wars + Lovecraftian horror. Death Troopers and its sequel? Star Wars + Zombies.).

Even as a self-avowed Star Wars fanatic who can name very obscure characters and quote you hyperspace travel times off the top of his head, I can't say I've actually liked any books or comics published in the last year or two. :smallannoyed:

snoopy13a

2013-09-04, 06:48 PM

Oh, and best of all:

The holiday special!

Not only is it beyond awesome, it, among other things, introduces Boba Fett.

Dienekes

2013-09-04, 06:51 PM

Thrawn Trilogy was the only EU book series I ever thought was worth caring about. I've picked up a few others but nothing else were as interesting to me.

Gadora

2013-09-04, 07:26 PM

Those, and pretty much anything else set or published after the New Jedi Order series. That's the point at which they decided to Grimdark-ify the EU (the New Jedi Order series is all about killing off old characters, making the good guys look bad, and just generally not being all that fun), blatantly screw with the canon (what happened to the Sith, what's possible with the Force, the role of the Celestials, etc.), and just throw random stuff into the EU to see what sticks (Dark Nest trilogy? Star Wars + Zerg. Fate of the Jedi series? Star Wars + Lovecraftian horror. Death Troopers and its sequel? Star Wars + Zombies.).

Even as a self-avowed Star Wars fanatic who can name very obscure characters and quote you hyperspace travel times off the top of his head, I can't say I've actually liked any books or comics published in the last year or two. :smallannoyed:

May I borrow the thread for just a moment? How is X-wing: Mercy Kill? I mean, it's an X-Wing book, but it's also set in the Legacy era. On the one hand, I really want to read it, but on the other... I have no experience with the Legacy era.

Also, you didn't like Zahn's Scoundrels (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Scoundrels) that came out earlier this year? That book was kind of fantastic and actually kicked me off on a bit of a reread through quite a few older Star Wars books.

snoopy13a

2013-09-04, 07:29 PM

Also, you didn't like Zahn's Scoundrels (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Scoundrels) that came out earlier this year? That book was kind of fantastic and actually kicked me off on a bit of a reread through quite a few older Star Wars books.

I really liked that book. Zahn's recent books, set during the OT, are very good.

McStabbington

2013-09-04, 08:11 PM

Timothy Zahn's trilogy (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command) are very, very good. So good, in fact, that I think Zahn had more to do with the revival of Star Wars than anything George Lucas ever did, and while the prequels have rendered large parts of them AU, I look with far more fondness on the AU than I do Lucas' official work.

With respect to games, X-Wing and TIE Fighter are masterpieces of gaming. I've heard very good things about KOTOR and KOTOR II as well, but I can't personally vouch for them. But yeah, forget being a Jedi. When I was a kid, I wanted to be an X-Wing pilot, and those games let you play that out to your heart's content. Many nerdgasms were had by all, and LucasArts saw that it was good.

Chainsaw Hobbit

2013-09-04, 08:13 PM

I'm going to try reading the Thrawn trilogy. Should I read the original versions, or are the abridged ones better?

GloatingSwine

2013-09-04, 08:14 PM

There were these three films once. They were pretty cool....

The rest of it? Probably not.

snoopy13a

2013-09-04, 08:14 PM

I'm going to try reading the Thrawn trilogy. Should I read the original versions, or are the abridged ones better?

There's an abridged version? I suppose it might be some minor ret-coning to make it fit with the prequels.

PairO'Dice Lost

2013-09-04, 09:33 PM

May I borrow the thread for just a moment? How is X-wing: Mercy Kill? I mean, it's an X-Wing book, but it's also set in the Legacy era. On the one hand, I really want to read it, but on the other... I have no experience with the Legacy era.

The book is...eh. It's nice to see some familiar faces again and see Wraith Squadron pull off their usual entertaining shenanigans, but otherwise it's a paint-by-numbers "old agents are brought out of retirement for one last mission, they complain about how they're too old for this while the hip new people (who the oldsters don't get a long with) tell them to get with the program, some oldsters bond with some new people while others hate other new people, and there's a predictable twist at the end" story.

If you want to read it to see more of Face's and Piggy's crazy plans, go for it, but don't expect any great or new additions to the canon.

Also, you didn't like Zahn's Scoundrels (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Scoundrels) that came out earlier this year? That book was kind of fantastic and actually kicked me off on a bit of a reread through quite a few older Star Wars books.

Okay, correction, I've liked one recent Star Wars book. I'd forgotten about that one because I read that and Crucible back-to-back on the same day, and while the second half of Crucible wasn't the most out-of-character, out-of-canon, half-assed excuse for a Star Wars book I've read, it wasn't for lack of trying. :smallsigh:

I'm going to try reading the Thrawn trilogy. Should I read the original versions, or are the abridged ones better?

The only abridged versions I'm familiar with are the audiobooks, so I'm not sure what differences a hypothetical abridged Thrawn trilogy might have to the originals, but I'd go with the originals regardless.

turkishproverb

2013-09-04, 09:44 PM

What are some good things to come out of the Star Wars universe other than the Original Trilogy? I'm looking for books, comics, games, and everything else.

The Heir to the Empire Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Better than the O.T. in many ways.

The Thrawn duology that followed was also pretty good, as is most of Zahns work.

snoopy13a

2013-09-04, 09:55 PM

Stay well away from
Anything by Kevin J. Anderson. His Young Jedi Knights stories weren't too bad in a Teen Titans kind of way. But he is responsible for the Sun Crusher, a ship with invincible armor, sun-blowing-up torpedoes in the size of a small shuttlecraft. And Kyp Durron, the even-more-powerful-than-Luke-brooding-fall-to-the-Dark-but-amazingly-recover Force user.
Among other atrocities.

I don't think you'll find much argument there. As for atrocities, Kyp Durron does something extraordinarily horrid and gets away with a slap on the wrist.

The Jedi Academy trilogy (the aforementioned novels dealing with the Durron debacle) and the Dark Empire comics, among others, trivialize falling to the Dark Side. One of the core themes of Return of the Jedi is that Luke was willing to put his life on the line to redeem Vader. Some of the later EU make light of the impact of that choice.

Trickquestion

2013-09-04, 11:58 PM

I loved the KOTOR series, but a quick warning: KOTOR 2 will gut punch your perception of the Star Wars universe. The game's whole premise is "Wow, this universe is really messed up when you think about it." It's still a phenomenal game, but it will challenge your view of the Star Wars universe.

Oh, and get the restored content mod. A much more coherent experience it makes.

Prince Raven

2013-09-05, 12:05 AM

Definitely watch both the 2003 and 2008 Clone Wars cartoons.

Hopeless

2013-09-05, 03:08 AM

I admit i missed most of the first session of the Star Wars Legacy comics, but have been reading the second session this time introducing Ania Solo... so I was wondering how you rate that series?

Oh and Dark Times comic series cancelled?!:smalleek:

Picked up the last couple of issues and thought it pretty good, the crossover they did tying in their various Star Wars comic series I was less interested in even if I liked Zayne.

I still have the pre-revenge of the sith animated series that I occasionally rewatch now thats worth picking up couldn't help feeling whilst watching the later cg clone wars series that someone wasn't keeping tabs on how long those ships had to take going from one system to another... but maybe thats just me!

Or R2 has some serious timey whimeyness going on especially during the arc where Padme is infected by anotherwise lethal airborne virus whose only sure is located on a world with a droid run laser defence net preventing anyone leaving...:smalleek:

Yes i'm thinking too much about that!

Yora

2013-09-05, 03:19 AM

My Star Wars hit list is:

The Empire Strikes Back
Heir to the Empire series (3 novels)
X-Wing series (novels)
Jedi Knight (video games)
Knights of the Old Republic (video game)
Knights of the Old Republic (2006 comic series)
Tie Fighter (1994 video game)

I'm suprised there seems to be a general consensus here about this:
"Thrawn, X-Wing, Jedi Knight, KotOR" seems to be what pretty much everyone agrees on.

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-05, 04:03 AM

I concur with the concensus: Thrawn (and by extension, any SW Zhan books in general), X-Wing books (Stackpole and Allston; I would, however, skip the books by those authors that co-incide with the New Jedi Order or later period; even the second- and thrid-best authors cannot pull anything out of that drek, and Stackpole's I Jedi, while good, also happens concurrently with Kevin J Anderson's Jedi Academy trilog, so you either have to read that much inferior work (though it's now not among the worst of the EU...!) or be possibly slightly baffled as to what's going on).

TIE Fighter is among the best games of all time ever, right up there with Dungeon Keeper 1 and Planescape Torment and is more or less singularly responsible for making me an Imperial loyalist. KotR 1 and 2, as stated, are both very good (KotR 2 remains one the precious few RPGs I've actually played all the way through completely more than once). X-Wing Alliance isn't bad (but they nerfed the Imperial fighters, which for years I took as canon - regretfully - until I realised the in-universe stats were still working of TIE and not XWA...) Can't speak to the Jedi Knight games, since they are out of my interest bracket.

Ebon_Drake

2013-09-05, 12:55 PM

I loved the KOTOR series, but a quick warning: KOTOR 2 will gut punch your perception of the Star Wars universe.

This is precisely why I recommend KOTOR2 so hard. It's flawed, but the many good parts are oh-so-good. It's the Empire Strikes Back to KOTOR's New Hope. I'd also agree with getting the Restored Content Mod for it.

Beyond that, I'll echo what others have said: Zahn's books, the X-Wing books and games and the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight games are pretty much the best SW has to offer. I've not seen the Clone Wars cartoons, but I've heard good things. I remember quite liking Shadows Of The Empire and a couple of the Tales of... books (Jabba's Palace and the Mos Eisley cantina) when I was in school, but I'm not sure what the wider opinion of those is.

Emmerask

2013-09-05, 07:03 PM

PairO'Dice Lost

2013-09-05, 07:10 PM

I remember quite liking Shadows Of The Empire and a couple of the Tales of... books (Jabba's Palace and the Mos Eisley cantina) when I was in school, but I'm not sure what the wider opinion of those is.

I don't know about the general opinion on them is, but I like the Tales of X books because they expand on background characters without feeling the need to tie them into a dozen other parts of canon, they're just self-contained slice-of-life stories, and my friends who have read them like them as well.

I actually dont know why the clone wars series would be considered good? I watched a few episodes and it pretty much had the same flaws going on as the prequels imo ie shallow dialogue and plots, stupid jokes (seriously war robots programmed with joke subroutines?).
Though maybe I had the misfortune to always get the bad episodes (watched 10 overall I think)

Note that there are two Clone Wars cartoons, the series of animated shorts by Tartakovsky that came out between Episodes II and III that expands on a lot of EU material, introduces some fan favorite characters, etc. and was very well-regarded, and the series of pseudo-CGI full-length episodes that came out after Episode III based on the Clone Wars movie which was basically the story of Anakin and his padawan and was met with tepid reviews at best.

Most people talking about how awesome the Clone Wars cartoon is are talking about the first one, while if you caught any episodes on TV in the last few years you saw the second one, so that's probably the source of your confusion.

Emmerask

2013-09-05, 07:16 PM

Ah that makes sense, I was seriously doubting my sanity for a moment :smallbiggrin:

Raimun

2013-09-05, 07:16 PM

The Jedi Knight-series of games:

Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

You're a jedi. You slice up some bad guys and decide to follow either the light or the dark side of the force. What more can you want?

Knights of the Old Republic is good too. Haven't played the second one.

HamHam

2013-09-05, 07:24 PM

I actually dont know why the clone wars series would be considered good? I watched a few episodes and it pretty much had the same flaws going on as the prequels imo ie shallow dialogue and plots, stupid jokes (seriously war robots programmed with joke subroutines?).
Though maybe I had the misfortune to always get the bad episodes (watched 10 overall I think)

The affably evil, more than a little buffoonery battle droids are one of the best parts. Really makes you sympathize with the soulless killing machines.

If I had to name some good ones:

S2E5 Landing at Point Rahn
S2E10 The Deserter
S5E6 The Gathering

Also stuff like this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vtj5YxDcCk)

Most people talking about how awesome the Clone Wars cartoon is are talking about the first one, while if you caught any episodes on TV in the last few years you saw the second one, so that's probably the source of your confusion.

Nope I'm talking about both. There's some bad episodes, and some really stupid ideas for retcons, but the high points are amazing and overall it's damn good.

Prince Raven

2013-09-06, 12:05 AM

I actually really enjoyed the 2008 Clone Wars series, especially since they gave Anakin more personality traits than whiny teenager. Some episodes really stood out, like the Mortis ones.

Clertar

2013-09-06, 02:21 AM

I'm really excited about Dresden Codak author Aaron Diaz's project for a webcomic series presenting an alternative prequel story to the original trilogy, "Star Wars 1999".

BWR

2013-09-06, 02:49 AM

Hopeless

2013-09-06, 02:53 AM

Kotor is really good, the x wing books and thrawn trilogy.

I actually dont know why the clone wars series would be considered good? I watched a few episodes and it pretty much had the same flaws going on as the prequels imo ie shallow dialogue and plots, stupid jokes (seriously war robots programmed with joke subroutines?).
Though maybe I had the misfortune to always get the bad episodes (watched 10 overall I think)

Have you watched the series done by the man who did Samurai Jack?

Some of the Jedi bits are way over the top (I'm looking at you Mace Windu!:smallbiggrin:) but otherwise it was very good.

Ninjadeadbeard

2013-09-06, 02:57 AM

I'm really excited about Dresden Codak author Aaron Diaz's project for a webcomic series presenting an alternative prequel story to the original trilogy, "Star Wars 1999".

Agreed, but it'll never match up to the SW Prequels each and every one of us fantasized about before The Dark Times*.

But as to the Clone Wars...why would you ever watch the 2008 series? Why? Why not just huff a barrel of meth. It gets the same results, approximately.

Except the last season. That had a half dozen decent episodes, and the finale was phenomenal television.

*post-1997

Prince Raven

2013-09-06, 02:58 AM

The 2008 Clone Wars series had some good, some bad and a lot of meh.
They should have focused entirely on new or lesser known characters, rather than Obi-Wan and Anakin. Padawan Mosquito-bumps should never had existed, they should not have felt the need to retcon the comics in favor of stupid ideas, like Asajj Ventress' back story and fate.
They should not have introduced Savage Opress (really scraping the bottom of the barrely with that name) or brought Darth Maul back, or had those retarded Dathomiri witches, or done any number of things.

But they did occasionally have some decent action or fun stories (like that little Mon Cal Padawan who tried to take on Grievous).
While Ahsoka's existence messed with the canon, I think she's a likeable and well-developed character, and I'd argue that removing her from the series would have done a lot of harm to its quality.
That being said, I agree that more episodes based on obscure characters would have improved the series.

Yora

2013-09-06, 03:08 AM

They should have focused entirely on new or lesser known characters, rather than Obi-Wan and Anakin.
I think it's interesting to note that three of the most praised series here (X-Wing, Jedi Knight, KotOR) focus very heavily on new characters or relatively obscure background characters, and don't really have much of any connections to the movies.

turkishproverb

2013-09-06, 03:33 AM

I think it's interesting to note that three of the most praised series here (X-Wing, Jedi Knight, KotOR) focus very heavily on new characters or relatively obscure background characters, and don't really have much of any connections to the movies.

Then how do you account for the Zahn books?

Yora

2013-09-06, 03:40 AM

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-06, 04:09 AM

Not quite sure.

But who exactly remembers the cool exploits that Luke, Han, and Leia pull off in those books?
But I do however remember the coolness of Thrawn, Pallaeon, Rukh, Talon Karrde, and Mara Jade, and even that bastard Borsk Feylya, a man you love to hate. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, Luke, Han, and Leia do make appearances in those books. But they aren't what those books are about.

Related: Star Wars Fans hate Star Wars (http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/forum/1098125-post1.html)

Actually, I think Zhan's stories worked because even with the major characters - especially Luke - he kept them to believeably levels of power and didn't allow the story to be about the Force like most of the rest of the novels. (Stackpole and Allston did that too, just with the less nonEU major characters.) In the Hand of Thrawn duology, Zhan actually went as far as making Luke start to see Sith laughing at him when he spammed his Force powers in what was a clear attempt to drag the Jedi back to a sensible level of power, where the Force was not the driving force of the plot, nor the main solution.

And I think that is where most SW stories fall down. Far too much emphasis on the magic space samurai and not enough on the sci-fi. The OT had - ike Zhan did - the Force as important, possibly critical, to the plot; but it wasn't the WHOLE plot or characterisation, it was just something that happened to be wielded by some of the people in it. (You could have had 95% of the OT plot without any Force-users at all, doubly true, I think, for the Thrawn trilogy.)

As for the Clone Wars 2008... Ashoka Tano is the second Jedi ever (the first being Mace Windu) I actually liked (Luke, Mara and Corran don't count as they were the sensible part of the new Jedi (ditto maybe the Solo kids, but by the time they were up to a sensible age, the EU had got to crap.)). She was awesome.

And despite that, I still think they should have been gutsy enough to have her die fighting Anakin in the temple, because that could have been astoundingly powerful television (maybe evern more so than Obiwan and Anakin.)

On the other hand, an alive Ashoka is an Ashoka who could turn up in other non-sucky things and be awesome (like my headcanon, which ends shortly after Zhan's chronologial book and before hte NJO).

Prince Raven

2013-09-06, 06:30 AM

On the other hand, an alive Ashoka is an Ashoka who could turn up in other non-sucky things and be awesome (like my headcanon, which ends shortly after Zhan's chronologial book and before hte NJO).

All my yes.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-06, 10:15 AM

This is precisely why I recommend KOTOR2 so hard. It's flawed, but the many good parts are oh-so-good. It's the Empire Strikes Back to KOTOR's New Hope. I'd also agree with getting the Restored Content Mod for it.

So TOR is Return of the Jedi?

Yeah, that analogy fits perfectly.

Raimun

2013-09-06, 11:37 AM

Actually, I think Zhan's stories worked because even with the major characters - especially Luke - he kept them to believeably levels of power and didn't allow the story to be about the Force like most of the rest of the novels. (Stackpole and Allston did that too, just with the less nonEU major characters.) In the Hand of Thrawn duology, Zhan actually went as far as making Luke start to see Sith laughing at him when he spammed his Force powers in what was a clear attempt to drag the Jedi back to a sensible level of power, where the Force was not the driving force of the plot, nor the main solution.

And I think that is where most SW stories fall down. Far too much emphasis on the magic space samurai and not enough on the sci-fi. The OT had - ike Zhan did - the Force as important, possibly critical, to the plot; but it wasn't the WHOLE plot or characterisation, it was just something that happened to be wielded by some of the people in it. (You could have had 95% of the OT plot without any Force-users at all, doubly true, I think, for the Thrawn trilogy.)

Don't know about Thrawn trilogy but the Original Trilogy would be a completely different story without the force.

- Why would Obi-Wan not tell Luke who his dad is? There is no dark side to fall in.
- Why the Stormtroopers didn't capture the droids that were on their plain sight?
- Why did Obi-Wan sacrifice himself? It's not like he could help Luke after that.
- Why would they even fight with those swords? It's not like you can block blaster bolts with them and you would just chop your limbs off. Is that why Vader is more man than a machine?

- How did Luke know where Yoda was? Obi-Wan never told him anything useful when he was alive.
- Why did Luke decide to meet Yoda? He's just a tiny old guy who lives in a planet of endless swamps. It's not like Luke knows he would know something about his past.
- Can Yoda teach anything useful to Luke? I think not.
- How would Luke know his friends are in danger? He's stranded on the swamps with the useless little dude.
- Why Luke can't go to save his friends? It's not like any amount of extra training would help him against Imperial forces.
- How did they get the X-Wing out of the swamp?
- Why did Vader need to freeze Luke? Space-manacles work just as well.
- HOW did Vader block those blaster bolts Han shot at him? Will there be exposition about some new piece of technology?
- Why would Vader want to fight Luke mano-a-mano? There's no need to test his mettle.
- Why wouldn't Luke join Vader? Evil is subjective, you know.
- How did Leia know to turn back because Luke was hanging at the very bottom of the cloud city?

- How did Luke know Leia is his sister? Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't tell him that. That another Skywalker could be anywhere in the galaxy.
- How did Vader know Luke is in the shuttle?
- Why did the trilogy end with the heroes being eaten by ewoks? I mean, it was just too cruel for Leia to watch and then the Imperium shot all the rebel ships with the Deathstar. OR Why did the ewoks let them go and helped them in battle?
- Why did the Emperor put Luke's lightsaber where Luke could grab it?
- How did Vader know Leia is Luke's sister? Luke didn't tell him.

And the most important thing:

- Why would Vader and especially the Emperor have any interest in capturing Luke? Sure, he is Vader's son but it's not like he has any special abilities or skills that no one else has.

The force is essential to Star Wars. It's the very core of the story and is used as much as a major plot element as it is used to resolve many minor happenings that drive the plot forward. Also, it is used to explain the fantastic elements like cool swordfights in a setting that has rayguns and space travel.

Star Wars is more of a fantasy setting than a sci-fi setting. It's first and foremost a basic story about the battle between good and evil with mystical elements. Not a work that tries to explore the ramifications of space travel and other advanced technology on human society.

Take the magic space samurai away and the whole thing falls apart.

Edit: In a nutshell, the mental projection(/telepathy/precognition/force ghost) ascpet of the force is major driving force in the original trilogy.

This goes double for the two main villains who are strongly motivated by the power of the force.

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-06, 12:07 PM

Don't know about Thrawn trilogy but the Original Trilogy would be a completely different story without the force.

The force is essential to Star Wars. It's the very core of the story and is used as much as a major plot element as it is used to resolve many minor happenings that drive the plot forward. Also, it is used to explain the fantastic elements like cool swordfights in a setting that has rayguns and space travel.

I said 95% of the plot, meaning the basic plot, not 95% of the specifics. Yes, the heroes would have had to come up with a lot more work-arounds, but the villains would have less to work with. But let's not forget that the force didn't drive all the incidents: Hoth wouldn't have been much different with no Force users, and indeed, there is a fair chance that without Force users, Endor would have gone better for the rebel scum.

And THAT is largely what Star Wars is about, not necessarily the personalities involved, but the major events of the, y'know, actual wars. For me, the bits involving the magic space samurai were of a distant second to the starship and ground battles.

Not a work that tries to explore the ramifications of space travel and other advanced technology on human society.

The occasionally espoused opinion that sci-fi is solely a platform for social analysis I find to be largely complete cobblers. While there is a degree of that, more so than in fantasy, perhaps, it is no more and no less than an occasional tendancy.

And I find the best sci-fi DOESN'T do social analysis; indeed, the fastest way to get me to not care about sci-fi is to tell me it's an exploration of the human condition or something...

My favourite book of all time doesn't even have, strictly speaking any (human) characters at ALL - you can literally count the number of people even mentioned by name on the fingers of one hand.

Yora

2013-09-06, 12:30 PM

Well, there's nothing wrong with space-action and Fantasy IN SPACE! But that's a completely different thing when it comes to themes and dynamics of the stories.

Raimun

2013-09-06, 01:32 PM

HamHam

2013-09-06, 02:35 PM

And THAT is largely what Star Wars is about, not necessarily the personalities involved, but the major events of the, y'know, actual wars. For me, the bits involving the magic space samurai were of a distant second to the starship and ground battles.

The war is cool and all, but that's not the impact of the movie. That comes from Luke's personal struggle. Without that it's just faceless mooks killing other faceless mooks no matter how pretty you make it.

And I find the best sci-fi DOESN'T do social analysis; indeed, the fastest way to get me to not care about sci-fi is to tell me it's an exploration of the human condition or something...

So you don't like any actually good sci fi then?

-----------------------------

The strength of Star Wars as a setting is that it can be used for a wide range of stories: war, sword and sorcery, western, high adventure, swashbuckling, heist, etc.

Thrawn183

2013-09-06, 02:53 PM

Not quite sure.

But who exactly remembers the cool exploits that Luke, Han, and Leia pull off in those books?

I do. I never forget a skilled opponent, but I will not put on some puerile display sacrificing valuable troops to salve my own pride.

I will simply withdraw from battle with the rebels and reorganize while keeping everyone safe from the multitude of threats residing in the Unknown Regions.

And possibly enact a contingency plan or two. You'll never know.

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-06, 03:35 PM

Not that I didn't enjoy the space battles and ground battles. It's just that there are many other works with futuristic space and ground battles

There really isn't that much actually.

Starships, in particular, are a dying art. Hell, even Into Darkness couldn't manage a starship battle, and that is a reimage of something that was one of the highpoints of Star Trek's starship battles.

And I can think of even fewer things with sci-fi ground battles, aside from those using anthropathmophic giant robots (which basically equates to giant infantry, not vehicles) and heck even Star Wars runs slap into walker territory.

So you don't like any actually good sci fi then?

Good sci-fi isn't a social analysis.

Good ANYTHING isn't a social analysis.

Examples of good sci-fi: Babylon 5 (paragon example, does nearly everything right, and only very occasionally slips into being slightly arty (Sheridan's capture, for instance), near perfect balance of all types of interest; frankly the gold standard for everybody else), Stargate SG-1, Thrawn trilogy, TIE Fighter, Lost Fleet series, Spacecraft 2000-2100AD (best sci-fi book in existance), Doctor Who (when not on a bad day), Rip Foster Rides the Grey Planet (a book which I doubt any of you have ever heard of), Douglas Hill's Last Legionary series (etc etc).

hamishspence

2013-09-06, 03:47 PM

I liked the Last Legionary series- read the prequel to it at school- but only found the actual series fairly recently, a couple of years ago.

HamHam

2013-09-06, 04:09 PM

Examples of good sci-fi: Babylon 5

Babylon 5 is neck deep in social commentary, examination of human nature, speculative musings about pretty much everything... that's what makes it great.

Doctor Who isn't even science fiction (a lot of the time).

SG1 is competent and the occasional bit of something actually great comes from how fully realized and human the characters are.

The rest of that I have no idea.

But while the trappings of art are important, they are meaningless without substance.

I used to read Battletech books, and hey they are fun but the fact is they are utterly vapid compared to something like The Caves of Steel or Snow Crash or even The Reality Dysfunction, which is legitimately pulpy (compared to Snow Crash's ironic pulpiness) space opera but is also about something.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-06, 04:18 PM

Good sci-fi isn't a social analysis.

Good ANYTHING isn't a social analysis.

Examples of good sci-fi: Babylon 5

...what? That's the most transparently social sciences-based space opera in the history of television. It's so pretentious Star Trek started taking notes (and the resulting knockoff is generally considered the best non-ironic Star Trek series on average).

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-06, 04:44 PM

...what? That's the most transparently social sciences-based space opera in the history of television. It's so pretentious Star Trek started taking notes (and the resulting knockoff is generally considered the best non-ironic Star Trek series on average).

And when anything else is even close to being as good as Babyon 5 at EVERYTHING like B5 was, then it can be allowed to have social commentary in among that everything.

However, it is excrutiatingly rare for something to be at that kind of level (in animation, it's like being Avatar the Last Airbender).

B5 worked because it wasn't just a vehicle for social commentary: it was, but it was a vehicle for everything else at the same time. B5's starship battles are some of the absolute best and most intense out there; the action sequences were good, the world building was polished, the characters were brilliant, the humour was great... It just did everything well.

I never said you can't have social analysis in anything good: but good anything isn't that to exclusion (or even primarily), same as it is for everything else.

(With the possible exception of starship battles, of which there cannot be to much, obviously.)

But while the trappings of art are important, they are meaningless without substance.

"Art" for the sake of "art" is even more meaningless and frequently far more pretentious.

Anyway, to bring this back to my original point, by the thread's own general consensus, some of the best Star Wars stuff is fairly light on the Jedi, at least compared to much of the rest of the EU where they are placed so centrally. Which I think is kind of the point. While it wouldn't be Star Wars without magic space samurai, Star Wars is not exclusively about magic space samurai, and when it is, it tends to be at it's lowest point1. (I refer you to the Jedi-heavy prequel trilogy which creates so much ire (I don't mind it myself, as an Imperial loyalist).)

1Notable exceptions include KotR 1/2 on the positive but Force-heavy side, anything by Karen Traviss on the negative and anti-force side.

HamHam

2013-09-06, 06:06 PM

B5 worked because it wasn't just a vehicle for social commentary: it was, but it was a vehicle for everything else at the same time. B5's starship battles are some of the absolute best and most intense out there; the action sequences were good, the world building was polished, the characters were brilliant, the humour was great... It just did everything well.

B5 could have all that, but if it wasn't about something it would be drivel. High quality drivel, sure, but still drivel. And many of these follow from it. Good characters have substance, they are about something. Good humor is usually about something.

Anyway, to bring this back to my original point, by the thread's own general consensus, some of the best Star Wars stuff is fairly light on the Jedi, at least compared to much of the rest of the EU where they are placed so centrally. Which I think is kind of the point. While it wouldn't be Star Wars without magic space samurai, Star Wars is not exclusively about magic space samurai, and when it is, it tends to be at it's lowest point1. (I refer you to the Jedi-heavy prequel trilogy which creates so much ire (I don't mind it myself, as an Imperial loyalist).)

The prequels are not bad because they have too many Jedi.

Notable exceptions include KotR 1/2 on the positive but Force-heavy side

That's not an exception. The Jedi Knight games, Force Unleashed, the KoToR comic, Tales of the Jedi, Clone Wars, etc

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-06, 06:23 PM

B5 could have all that, but if it wasn't about something it would be drivel. High quality drivel, sure, but still drivel. And many of these follow from it. Good characters have substance, they are about something. Good humor is usually about something.

So only things that are about human society are worth anything? If it doesn't involve some socio- or philosophical analysis/exploration, it's meaningless? Anything that doesn't focus on "the human condition" is inherently inferior?

Ninjadeadbeard

2013-09-06, 06:50 PM

Examples of good sci-fi: Babylon 5

But that's not how you spell Farscape. :smallsmile:

Gavinfoxx

2013-09-06, 07:15 PM

Oh, and best of all:

The holiday special!

Not only is it beyond awesome, it, among other things, introduces Boba Fett.

y must u be so cruel?!

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-06, 07:17 PM

So only things that are about human society are worth anything? If it doesn't involve some socio- or philosophical analysis/exploration, it's meaningless? Anything that doesn't focus on "the human condition" is inherently inferior?

What's required, in my opinion, is some kind of overarching theme or thesis, whether it's something generic like "the human condition" or "destiny" or something more specific like "pride goes before a fall" or "war is hell". Without some kind of unifying idea, any story is just stuff happening.

Star Wars, as generic as it is, has a pretty good unifying theme in the films about selfish falls and selfless redemption, and each of the good EU stories usually has its own theme (or copies the films, whatever).

HamHam

2013-09-06, 07:44 PM

Goosefeather

2013-09-06, 07:55 PM

So only things that are about human society are worth anything? If it doesn't involve some socio- or philosophical analysis/exploration, it's meaningless? Anything that doesn't focus on "the human condition" is inherently inferior?

I'm put in mind of a quote of the Giant's that I've seen floating around:

Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.

Sci-fi faces a similar issue - escapism has its place, sure, but it's inherently limited in that it doesn't move us forward in any way.

I guess science-fiction has the option of creating and investigating hypothetical technologies, but without an exploration of the social implications of these technologies, we're back to escapism - or a dry scientific screed.

warty goblin

2013-09-06, 09:35 PM

Good sci-fi isn't a social analysis.

Good ANYTHING isn't a social analysis.

You would really, really hate my bookshelf.

Examples of good sci-fi: Babylon 5 (paragon example, does nearly everything right, and only very occasionally slips into being slightly arty (Sheridan's capture, for instance), near perfect balance of all types of interest; frankly the gold standard for everybody else),
We did watch the same show, right? Because I'm not sure I've encountered a bit of sci-fi that lays it on thicker than B5. The sum total of the Shadows vs. Vorlons conflict is basically a post-Cold War treatise on the immorality and damage caused by proxy warfare. Everything else, the whole bit with Earth, Clark, the Psi Corps* as uncontrolled secret police with their own agenda, etc are all part of this central narrative. The entire show is a secular humanist fantasy about how awesome everything can be now the Cold War is over.

With spaceships. It's a secular humanist nerd fantasy after all.

Which isn't even touching on the individual episodes. This being the show that brought us the line-up of a member of every faith tradition on Earth, the one about whether the state should intervene if a parent's faith would lead to the preventable death of a child, the one about silence and fear of being perceived as being unclean spreading disease, the entire bevy of episodes about substance abuse, and so on. When Delenn explained conscious life as the universe figuring itself out? I think that's the sound of the show saying something.

Although I completely agree that it had hands down the best space battles ever.

*Most of the telepathy in B5 comes almost wholesale from Alfred Bester's superlative The Demolished Man, which is itself about nothing but the human condition. Also one of the twentieth century's best science fiction novels.

HamHam

2013-09-06, 10:10 PM

*Most of the telepathy in B5 comes almost wholesale from Alfred Bester's superlative The Demolished Man, which is itself about nothing but the human condition. Also one of the twentieth century's best science fiction novels.

Huh, you learn something new every day.

Also, that is one blatant homage isn't it.

tomandtish

2013-09-07, 10:45 AM

I said 95% of the plot, meaning the basic plot, not 95% of the specifics. Yes, the heroes would have had to come up with a lot more work-arounds, but the villains would have less to work with. But let's not forget that the force didn't drive all the incidents: Hoth wouldn't have been much different with no Force users, and indeed, there is a fair chance that without Force users, Endor would have gone better for the rebel scum.

And THAT is largely what Star Wars is about, not necessarily the personalities involved, but the major events of the, y'know, actual wars. For me, the bits involving the magic space samurai were of a distant second to the starship and ground battles.

Also good to note that the Rebel victory at Endor occurred as a result of the actions of non-force users. Han, Leia and company destroy the generator, allowing Lando, Wedge and gang to destroy the Death Star.

Even if Vader doesn’t turn on the Emperor, there’s nothing to indicate that this chain of events doesn’t still happen (and before anyone says it, the EU’s statement that the Emperor was directly controlling the actions of troops is not cannon). So the Emperor zaps Luke, chides Vader for losing another hand, and then the Death Star goes boom anyway. Impact of the Force on the final battle? Zero.

What's required, in my opinion, is some kind of overarching theme or thesis, whether it's something generic like "the human condition" or "destiny" or something more specific like "pride goes before a fall" or "war is hell". Without some kind of unifying idea, any story is just stuff happening.

Star Wars, as generic as it is, has a pretty good unifying theme in the films about selfish falls and selfless redemption, and each of the good EU stories usually has its own theme (or copies the films, whatever).

Sorry, just hit one of my personal Star Wars peeves there. If there’s one thing I hate most about the original trilogy, it’s claiming that Vader is redeemed or that it was “selfless”. Vader was unwilling to let the Emperor kill his own child. That’s all the slack I’m willing to give him. There’s no evidence anywhere in the trilogy that he actually feels bad about any of the things he has done, or is rejecting the ideals the Emperor has stood for. He’s simply reached the one line he’s not willing to cross: the death of his child.

I was 14 when I saw RotJ in the theater, and even I realized this: “If you had anyone else on the floor in front of the Emperor at that moment begging for help, would Vader have acted?” If your answer is “No”, then it is not about redemption. It’s simply about saving his son. He’s not any less evil than we’ve already seen. He’s just not even worse.

What makes it worse is that it’s not just the thought that a person may choose to change their outlook. It’s that the galaxy at large then seems to forgive them their sins as well.

warty goblin

2013-09-07, 10:55 AM

Huh, you learn something new every day.

Also, that is one blatant homage isn't it.

Babylon 5 is many things. Subtle isn't one of them.

And it is well worth reading Bester if you ever chance across a copy. He's about as different from most sci-fi as its possible to get and still nominally belong to the same genre. Some of Stanislaw Lem's work is the only things I've ever encountered that reads anything like Bester.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-07, 01:30 PM

Sorry, just hit one of my personal Star Wars peeves there. If there’s one thing I hate most about the original trilogy, it’s claiming that Vader is redeemed or that it was “selfless”. Vader was unwilling to let the Emperor kill his own child. That’s all the slack I’m willing to give him. There’s no evidence anywhere in the trilogy that he actually feels bad about any of the things he has done, or is rejecting the ideals the Emperor has stood for. He’s simply reached the one line he’s not willing to cross: the death of his child.

I was 14 when I saw RotJ in the theater, and even I realized this: “If you had anyone else on the floor in front of the Emperor at that moment begging for help, would Vader have acted?” If your answer is “No”, then it is not about redemption. It’s simply about saving his son. He’s not any less evil than we’ve already seen. He’s just not even worse.

What makes it worse is that it’s not just the thought that a person may choose to change their outlook. It’s that the galaxy at large then seems to forgive them their sins as well.

Whether Star Wars's theme is executed in a morally acceptable manner doesn't mean it isn't there (and personally I'm not a fan of its execution at all, but, well, Lucas). I personally don't believe in some cosmic accounting ledger of good deeds vs. evil deeds in real life or in the Galaxy Far, Far Away, but you have to admit that an overarching point of the original trilogy in general and Return of the Jedi specifically was that, no matter how far you've "fallen", you can still do something good for the world if you choose to.

Tyrant

2013-09-07, 03:24 PM

Also good to note that the Rebel victory at Endor occurred as a result of the actions of non-force users. Han, Leia and company destroy the generator, allowing Lando, Wedge and gang to destroy the Death Star.

Even if Vader doesn’t turn on the Emperor, there’s nothing to indicate that this chain of events doesn’t still happen (and before anyone says it, the EU’s statement that the Emperor was directly controlling the actions of troops is not cannon). So the Emperor zaps Luke, chides Vader for losing another hand, and then the Death Star goes boom anyway. Impact of the Force on the final battle? Zero.
I think you would have to start at the beginning to figure out in what ways the Force impacts the plot and not just selectively say that the end wouldn't change, even though it should.

For instance, if Vader isn't fighting Luke isn't he likely to be out in his fighter or directing the battle from the Executor or guarding the shield generator any of which could quite easily turn the tide? Does he even allow the shuttle to land without sensing Luke's presence? I believe Vader is quite easily the most dangerous combatant on either side and him fighting Luke means he isn't killing rebels so I wouldn't be so quick to downplay how important Luke's contribution was. Beyond that, without those events what's to stop the Emperor from simply escaping? Luke made it out dragging a half dead Vader after being nearly electrocuted, why couldn't Palpatine and Vader just briskly walk and make it in plenty of time? Given Palpatine's abilities I would imagine that had he not been dead by then he would've been making for the exit.

Hawriel

2013-09-07, 09:19 PM

I am very surprised and disappointed that the foundation of all EU writing has not been mentioned. (if I did miss the mention I take that back)

Star Wars D6 RPG by West End Games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Roleplaying_Game_(West_End_Games)

Almost all of the back ground work EU authors have used before the New Jedi Order series came from WEG. One author (might have been AC Crispin) mentioned this source material in her acknowledgements.

Some of their last source books were for the Thrawn Trilogy, and the Tails to the Jedi comics by Dark Horse.

The quality of writing and artwork has been consistently good for almost its entire run with the Star Wars IP. Zahn may have revitalized Star Wars in the late 90s but it was WEG that kept it alive and built the foundation for every thing that came after.

The list of good Star Wars stuff.

Computer games.
X wing, Tie Fighter, X Wing vs Tie fighter, and X Wing Alliance.
Wonderful space combat in the star wars universe. IF only there was an online combat game with this quality today.

Star Wars the Old Republic, and SWOT 2.
The first game is a solid RPG that kept the feel of the Star Wars universes. The second had more depth in the plot, but it suffered greatly from unfinished quests and a patchwork rushed ending.

The old Star Wars Death Star Run arcade game. It was great. Same with the old arcade Empire Strikes Back snow speeder game.

Dark Force Rising
This is the first FPS for Star Wars and it was awesome. The later Jedi Knight series fallowed this game with the same protagonist.

Comics
The old Marvel comics were a lot of fun. The art style fit, and the plots had that adventure feel.

Dark Horse comics were better in some ways. Very hit or miss in others.
Dark Empire, Tails of the Jedi and A few Comics with Boba Fett were very good quality stuff. The artist that did those comics were perfect for the setting.

Novels

As has been said these books can be hit or miss. Some times a home run with bases loaded, some times they are strike outs, and some times the ball goes into the batter's ear.

Thrawn Trilogy.
This revitalized Star Wars in the late 90s. Zahn wrote a solid story that fit well with the pacing, characterization, feel of the world.

X-Wing series
Rogue Squadron by Micheal Stackpole
this has 5 books. The only characters from the movies are Wedge, Hobby Kleven, and Wes Janson. We get a whole series from non Jedi point of view.

Wraith Squadron by Aaron Allston
3 books with new characters. Wedge creates a special operations team with piloting X-Wings as a secondary skill set.

Allston wrote a 4th book called Starfighters of Adumar.
Wedge and the old timers of Rogue squadron have an adventure. It's OK.

The Han Solo and Lando Calrissian adventure series.
These are old sci fi adventure novels. Read them and have fun. You can find them in a collectors addition. WEG also has a very nice source book for the Han Solo adventure series.

Han Solo Trilogy by AC Crispin.
This, along with the Rogue Squadron series, is my favorite books for Star Wars. It's Han Solo's life from age 16 to there is an old guy needing a ride to Alderaan. She even worked in the old Han Solo Adventure series rather well.

Bounty Hunter Wars Trilogy.
This series is about Boba Fett. However he is not the main POV character. The story starts when a half dead Boba Fett crawls out of the sarlacc into the night sands of Tatooine. The author never really gets into the mind of Fett. This is a good thing, it keeps him a mysterious bad-ass.

Troopers.
A fan video of storm troopers in a Cops like TV show on Tantooine. Tom Servo guest stars.

JoshL

2013-09-07, 09:29 PM

But that's not how you spell Farscape. :smallsmile:

A++

As for the underlying social themes and commentary, I am all in favor of that, because I'm into poetry. I grew up with (and intensely dislike) the attitude that once you deconstruct the meaning of a poem it's no longer good. That's what makes it better! Thinking about things is always better than not!

snoopy13a

2013-09-07, 10:31 PM

Troopers.
A fan video of storm troopers in a Cops like TV show on Tantooine. Tom Servo guest stars.

Troops was great. The last scene, with the "domestic dispute," is a classic :smallsmile:

Closet_Skeleton

2013-09-08, 10:46 AM

Anyway, to bring this back to my original point, by the thread's own general consensus, some of the best Star Wars stuff is fairly light on the Jedi, at least compared to much of the rest of the EU where they are placed so centrally. Which I think is kind of the point.

I'd massively disagree.

For me the best Star Wars comics are:

Star Wars Tales: Nomad (is all about Jedi and the force

but doesn't actually have any Jedi characters, but is still all about Jedi

Tales of the Jedi: Redemption

Does what it says of the tin. Somehow redeems KJA and the rest of the rather deeply flawed Tales of the Jedi series. Main problem is that it only makes any sense as a conclusion to a series of so so comics that don't really deserve it.

Knights of the Old Republic (the whole comic series, with some volumes having massive art problems). Which rarely has an actual Jedi on the hero's side but is still all about the force.

Star Wars Legacy on the other hand is best when its dealing with non-Jedi characters, but that's mainly because the primary protagonist (who isn't even technically a Jedi either) is so terrible its the side stories that are actually okay comics.

There are also a lot of fans of Star Wars Republic, which had a lot of Jedi characters. But I haven't really read those.

So only things that are about human society are worth anything? If it doesn't involve some socio- or philosophical analysis/exploration, it's meaningless? Anything that doesn't focus on "the human condition" is inherently inferior?

Nobody said that. 'Human society' is just one of many things a story can be about, but the best stories have substance of some sort because that also gives them greater emotional resonance.

'Harmless escapism' doesn't really exist anyway. Most things criticised as being such are usually actually about something that some pretentious critic was too up his own arse to notice. The few things that actually are just complete fluff are usually a lot less fun than you'd think they should be.

To have a story worth investing in it has to have human characters. Humans have passions and ideals, so interesting fictional characters have to have them as well. Once you decide what your fictional character feels strongly about, it naturally flows that your story will make some kind of statement about its characters belief.

Depth just flows naturally from quality writing. Its not something you have to layer into a story or something that you only find in pretentious works aimed at stuck up audiences.

(and before anyone says it, the EU’s statement that the Emperor was directly controlling the actions of troops is not cannon).

No it isn't.

The EU is canon. A 'canon' is a collection of works. The films are too small to be a canon by themselves, you have to add the EU to them. If you say 'only the films count' then you're rejecting the idea that Star Wars has a canon. If you say 'only the films, video games and the pre-NJO books' then that's a personal canon, but movies + the whole EU is the one true official canon.

There's some confusion about there being multiple levels of canon in Star Wars, but that's actually a sourcing system kept by Leyland Chee and is just to make things easier to rank when they contradict and doesn't actually make anything more or less canon unless it specifically states so (such as the what if Infinities stories).

Its very hard for something to truly be 'non-canon'. Even the out of continuity Star Trek books have their own sub-division of canon.

Yora

2013-09-08, 11:05 AM

Troops was great. The last scene, with the "domestic dispute," is a classic :smallsmile:
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocmVZXXY8w), in case anyone here hasn't yet had the pleasure.

"I joined the Empire about six years ago. I can remember as a kid, watching the holographic images and being exited about the new direction the galaxy was taking." :smallbiggrin:

GloatingSwine

2013-09-08, 05:01 PM

So only things that are about human society are worth anything? If it doesn't involve some socio- or philosophical analysis/exploration, it's meaningless? Anything that doesn't focus on "the human condition" is inherently inferior?

Stories that say absolutely nothing at all about the people involved in them, and by proxy people as a whole, are just a list of things that happen.

NB: This actually requires no human characters to be involved, as long as the story has characters who care about things. See: Mouse Guard thread.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-08, 07:54 PM

Stories that say absolutely nothing at all about the people involved in them, and by proxy people as a whole, are just a list of things that happen.

NB: This actually requires no human characters to be involved, as long as the story has characters who care about things. See: Mouse Guard thread.

For example, Mouse Guard: there are no human characters, but all the characters have goals, motivations, and ideas that they strive toward, whether specifically human, specifically mouse-like, or in-between. With a skilled GM, these all weave together into one plot driven by the characters and external events in concert. Good stories.

Left Behind: Entire cast with notable speaking roles is at least biologically human. However, all anyone does is stare with placid disinterest at the events around them and occasionally complain or congratulate themselves. Terrible story that's just a sequence of events being repeated to the audience.

(To be fair, Left Behind is low-hanging fruit. I could level this same analogy at most Arthur C. Clarke stories that weren't co-written by Stanley Kubrick.)

Closet_Skeleton

2013-09-09, 03:12 PM

For example, Mouse Guard: there are no human characters, but all the characters have goals, motivations, and ideas that they strive toward, whether specifically human, specifically mouse-like, or in-between.

I don't count anthropomorphism as really the same thing as a non-human characters.

But if you have really non-human characters like in say Flatland, the effort you have to put in makes the work very complicated.

GloatingSwine

2013-09-09, 03:33 PM

For example, Mouse Guard: there are no human characters, but all the characters have goals, motivations, and ideas that they strive toward, whether specifically human, specifically mouse-like, or in-between. With a skilled GM, these all weave together into one plot driven by the characters and external events in concert. Good stories.

Left Behind: Entire cast with notable speaking roles is at least biologically human. However, all anyone does is stare with placid disinterest at the events around them and occasionally complain or congratulate themselves. Terrible story that's just a sequence of events being repeated to the audience.

(To be fair, Left Behind is low-hanging fruit. I could level this same analogy at most Arthur C. Clarke stories that weren't co-written by Stanley Kubrick.)

Even better, compare the animated Avatar The Last Airbender to the live action movie.

The movie is the canonical example of a movie with no characters, sure, they look and move like people, but at no point does any one of them display an emotion. Instead they turn up, deliver exposition about things happening, and shuffle off.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-09, 04:30 PM

Sokka and Aang's actors give emotion a shot, but unfortunately they only manage to have vaguely upset facial features while delivering lines in monotone. Looping the topic back to Star Wars by some miracle, the Nostalgia Critic review referred to this quite astutely as Hayden Chistiansen-itis.

jere7my

2013-09-09, 11:50 PM

The force is essential to Star Wars. It's the very core of the story and is used as much as a major plot element as it is used to resolve many minor happenings that drive the plot forward. Also, it is used to explain the fantastic elements like cool swordfights in a setting that has rayguns and space travel.

Star Wars is more of a fantasy setting than a sci-fi setting. It's first and foremost a basic story about the battle between good and evil with mystical elements. Not a work that tries to explore the ramifications of space travel and other advanced technology on human society.

Take the magic space samurai away and the whole thing falls apart.

Bingo. This is why Timothy Zahn so badly missed the point of Star Wars, and set the entire Expanded Universe off on the wrong foot. His first move was to eliminate the Force by introducing little Force-dampening slugs, so he could write the hard(ish) military space SF he wanted to. It's a fine genre, but it's not Star Wars, and if he didn't want to write about Star Wars he never should've been handed the keys. I love the technical details of the Star Wars universe, and wouldn't want to live in a world without AT-ATs and LIN droids, but once you've eliminated the Force you've eliminated its soul. All you're left with is teenage fanwank about blasters and military hardware. Trying to shoehorn proper military strategy into a universe with AT-ATs and self-destruct exhaust ports the size of womp rats is misguided. It trained a generation of Star Wars fans to want edgy, gray-tone, "cool" MilSF from a world with puffy blue elephants on keyboards.

Despite all their problems, I vastly prefer the prequels to anything Zahn wrote. At least they understand the way the universe works. The Clone Wars cartoon(s), too.

Yora

2013-09-10, 03:57 AM

Strange, I remember the Thrawn series to be very much about an insane Dark Jedi Master, another Dark Jedi with Force visions, and Luke Skywalker dealing with both of them.
Half of the books is actually a Jedi story and even Thrawn actually needed the Dark Jedi Master as a crucial component for his plans.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-10, 08:49 AM

Bingo. This is why Timothy Zahn so badly missed the point of Star Wars, and set the entire Expanded Universe off on the wrong foot. His first move was to eliminate the Force by introducing little Force-dampening slugs, so he could write the hard(ish) military space SF he wanted to. It's a fine genre, but it's not Star Wars, and if he didn't want to write about Star Wars he never should've been handed the keys. I love the technical details of the Star Wars universe, and wouldn't want to live in a world without AT-ATs and LIN droids, but once you've eliminated the Force you've eliminated its soul. All you're left with is teenage fanwank about blasters and military hardware. Trying to shoehorn proper military strategy into a universe with AT-ATs and self-destruct exhaust ports the size of womp rats is misguided. It trained a generation of Star Wars fans to want edgy, gray-tone, "cool" MilSF from a world with puffy blue elephants on keyboards.

Despite all their problems, I vastly prefer the prequels to anything Zahn wrote. At least they understand the way the universe works. The Clone Wars cartoon(s), too.

You didn't actually read the Heir to the Empire trilogy, did you? Maybe someone told you that Thrawn was a Rommel homage and the MacGuffin was a pile of warships and clonetroopers, but you seem to have missed the presence of other important characters like Mara Jade, Joruus C'Baoth, and Luke ****ing Skywalker, which would be pretty difficult if you'd read the text.

Also if we're complaining about complete mishandling of the Force, do you really want to bring up the prequels? Really? Do I need to drop the m-bomb and watch this thread dissolve into an orgy of fandumb?

Yora

2013-09-10, 10:09 AM

I just finished the second story arc of the Knights of the Old Republic comic. After the first two issues, it becomes really good, quite close to the first one.

And I love that big twist. I actually DID see that comming, but completely forgot about it after a while. :smallbiggrin:
"That was not the Mandalorian that crushed my hand."
In #10 I was thinking that this would be a perfect opportunity for the good Mandalorian and the evil Mandalorian to switch armor, but after 30 more issues in which the "good Mandalorian" is acting perfectly normal, you kinda stop worrying about it.

I'm not too thrilled about Tales of the Jedi, though. I've read them to get all the facts about Exar Kun and Naga Sadow straight for once, since I'm a huge KotOR fan and those events pop up as relevant backstory all the time. But the plot is quite poor and the art actually rather bad. I would only recommend those to people who are fans of the Old Republic Era and want to get the full picture. But just for an entertaining read, they are not so great.

But a funny thing how the Old Republic Era was apparently created to serve as a backstory for the Jedi Academy novels, which aren't actually that great.
But again, Star Wars fans hate George Lucas work, so KotOR fans can hate Kevin Anderson. :smallbiggrin:

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-10, 10:28 AM

I look at the KotOR arc (the games, the comic, The Old Republic, and the tie-in novels that lead to TOR) as its own little thing that takes some very loose inspiration from Tales of the Jedi but is mostly an attempt to retell the films in a "golden age" of the Republic (actual golden age status may vary depending on whether they let Chris Avellone near it).

TotJ seems to have some great setting ideas and be pretty terrible in execution. A lot like the Jedi Academy trilogy, in fact, except TotJ actually came up with characters I give a **** about (namely Exar Kun as a villain, Nomi Sunrider as a hero, and Ulic Qel-Droma as one of those in-between types).

Yora

2013-09-10, 10:36 AM

I think there's actually three periods in the Old Republic Era. The Naga Sadow period, then 100 years later the Exar Kun era, and then 30 years later the KotOR period.

It's different stories, but I think KotOR (particularly the comics) is more enjoyable if you know who Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Master Arca, and Master Vodo are, and what's the deal with Korriban.

I also liked that the Tomb of Makar Ragnos in Jedi Knight 3 actually looks pretty close to the place in TotJ.

jere7my

2013-09-10, 11:49 AM

You didn't actually read the Heir to the Empire trilogy, did you?

I forced my way through them, though granted it was a long time ago. Yes, the Force exists in the books, but it was pretty clear that Zahn chiefly wanted to write gritty MilSF, and found the Force inconvenient, so he invented something to minimize its effect. That was his first mistake—the original trilogy was all about reawakening and rediscovering the Force, and slapping a mute on it was the wrong choice. It lessened the power of RotJ, like killing off Newt in Aliens 3. But he made other mistakes, like setting entirely the wrong tone for a Star Wars story. Ecch.

I haven't read any EU novels since then. If those are the best, I'd hate to see anything worse. I might read Sean Stewart's Yoda novel, since I like everything else he's written.

Also if we're complaining about complete mishandling of the Force, do you really want to bring up the prequels? Really? Do I need to drop the m-bomb and watch this thread dissolve into an orgy of fandumb?

I don't understand how EU fans can complain about midichlorians sucking the mysticism out of the Force and defend Zahn's Y-salami at the same time. Midichlorians are just little Force antennae, which sentient beings use to detect and utilize this potent mystical power; Ysalmiri are slugs that actually dampen the power of this supposedly all-powerful binding force of the universe, which strikes me as much more problematic.

LadyEowyn

2013-09-10, 12:07 PM

What are some good things to come out of the Star Wars universe other than the Original Trilogy? I'm looking for books, comics, games, and everything else.

For books I'd recommend, in chronological order:
- The Truce at Bakura (set immediately after RoTJ)
- the X-Wing novels by Michael A Stackpole and Aaron Allston (2-3 years after Return of the Jedi);
- the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn (5 years after RotJ);
- I, Jedi by Michael A Stackpole (featuring a character from the X-Wing books, and set concurrently with the far inferior Jedi Academy Triology; 7 years after RoTJ); and
- the Hand of Thrawn Duology by Timothy Zahn (~18 years after Return of the Jedi).

You might want to read some of the other books between Zahn's two sets to get a sense of events, but most of them aren't as good.

(Regarding the above argument about Zahn, the Ysalamiri don't bother me - the idea of the Force as a natural force that animals might adapt to is actually a pretty neat one - it doesn't remove the Jedi from the story so much as require them to be a little more creative, and the Force still plays a large role; and the series' characterization of Luke is one of the best I've read and holds onto what's truly supposed to set a Jedi apart - fundamental good-heartedness and care for others. That's something a lot of other books, not to mention the prequels (Qui-Gonn excepted), lose.)

In the Clone Wars period, Shatterpoint (focusing on Mace Windu and drawing heavily on Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness) is very good.

RPGuru1331

2013-09-10, 12:30 PM

I don't know about the general opinion on them is, but I like the Tales of X books because they expand on background characters without feeling the need to tie them into a dozen other parts of canon, they're just self-contained slice-of-life stories, and my friends who have read them like them as well.

I see no need to brook consensus in general, although I've been out of star wars for almost a decade at this point (Yes, NJO completed the process, for the curious). I just really wanted to highlight this, because I felt it true. For how bad a lot of the novels are, I was really surprised at how good the Tales of X books were. They're not all winners in every story, but the stories in general are pretty cool and well-written without trying to like, horribly overshadow the original trilogy in scale. Full disclaimer, Tales of the Jedi came after my time.

I forced my way through them, though granted it was a long time ago. Yes, the Force exists in the books, but it was pretty clear that Zahn chiefly wanted to write gritty MilSF, and found the Force inconvenient, so he invented something to minimize its effect. That was his first mistake—the original trilogy was all about reawakening and rediscovering the Force, and slapping a mute on it was the wrong choice. It lessened the power of RotJ, like killing off Newt in Aliens 3. But he made other mistakes, like setting entirely the wrong tone for a Star Wars story. Ecch.
I'm sorry, but briefly, no. If you consider Heir to the Empire 'gritty', then the term has perhaps lost all meaning. Nobody that isn't a villain dies. The climax is still a lightsaber duel. The force is still big n' important, it just doesn't get to do everything for the heroes or villains. Yes, a kludge is used. I don't actually disagree that Ysalimiri (I'm pretty sure they're lizards?) are as ridiculous as Midichlorians. But seriously, 'gritty' and 'no force'? The only possible definition of 'gritty' that I could agree matches is the one that also means 'grimy'; as in, the characters seem like they could use a shower for most of the plot.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-10, 12:37 PM

I forced my way through them, though granted it was a long time ago. Yes, the Force exists in the books, but it was pretty clear that Zahn chiefly wanted to write gritty MilSF, and found the Force inconvenient, so he invented something to minimize its effect. That was his first mistake—the original trilogy was all about reawakening and rediscovering the Force, and slapping a mute on it was the wrong choice. It lessened the power of RotJ, like killing off Newt in Aliens 3. But he made other mistakes, like setting entirely the wrong tone for a Star Wars story. Ecch.

>Gritty milSF
>The main bad guy wins battles through studying art history.

Are you for real?

Yora

2013-09-10, 12:59 PM

- the Hand of Thrawn Duology by Timothy Zahn (~18 years after Return of the Jedi).
I am suprised so many people here love those almost as much as Heir to the Empire. They were some of the last Star Wars novels I read and I really didn't like it at all.
Personally, I was pretty miffed by entire premise being a giant fake. Thrawn is not back, it's just some people faking that he is back to exploit his reputation.
Which made me feel like the novels also only exist to trick me into reading them by making me belive Thrawn is in them.
I was not amused. :smallannoyed:

And even that big issue aside, I don't remember the rest of the books being good either. Some love interest for luke shoved in who never appeared anywhere before and to my knowledge never again. Would have been a better idea than Mara Jade though, but that's another thing to not want to know anything post Corellia-trilogy.

jere7my

2013-09-10, 02:31 PM

I'm sorry, but briefly, no. If you consider Heir to the Empire 'gritty', then the term has perhaps lost all meaning.

It's no Full Metal Jacket, but compared to Ewoks and Sy Snootles it's gritty indeed.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-10, 02:46 PM

It's no Full Metal Jacket, but compared to Ewoks and Sy Snootles it's gritty indeed.

It's ridiculous. Star Wars is always ridiculous because the entire aesthetic runs on the rule of cool, and that includes Heir to the Empire. Blue!Erwin Rommel and an insane clone of a Jedi Master team up to find a cache of lost Nazi superweapons battleships and a clone army! A smuggler/politician and a politician/smuggler play off each other and against all sides as they try to control all-important Force-suppressing lizard-sloths! Luke Skywalker meets, fights, and falls in love with one of the Emperor's former Dark Jedi assassins (who is also a smuggler), then fights his own clone armed with that lightsaber he lost back in ESB! Honorable space-ninjas that can only be defeated through diplomacy! Politics with eavesropping trees! Han and Leia are married and having kids to excuse their relatively minor roles in the plot!

There is zero grit in Star Wars, least of all these books.

LadyEowyn

2013-09-10, 03:58 PM

I liked the Hand of Thrawn trilogy because:

1) It did a good job of creating a realistic conflict based on the New Republic's structure and politics.

2) It provided a conclusion to the Republic-versus-Empire post-RotJ arc, by bringing about peace with the Empire, moving Leia out of the head-of-state position so she didn't become a perpetual ruler, and providing a philosophically solid solution to the "overpowered Jedi" problem created by earlier books. Fights with the Empire were becoming rather overdone. It also set up a potential new arc (even if NJO did a terrible job of following up on it).

3) Its characters were well-drawn and multidimensional (as in the Thrawn Trilogy).

4) I really liked the Luke/Mara romance, and everything about Nirauan was highly interesting.

5) Like the Thrawn Trilogy, it introduced some well-done new characters (e.g., Shada).

And I don't understand the complaint about the Thrawn thing being a fakeout, since the readers know that almost from the very beginning. There is no point in which the reader is fooled into thinking Thrawn is back, but the ways the characters react to it is still well-done. Heck, "The Hand of Thrawn Duology" doesn't even appear on the books.

What I like about Zahn's Star Wars books - and it's a quality which is almost entirely absent from Zahn's other books, so I suspect he was forced into it by the idealistic (pre-NJO) setting of Star Wars - is that the good guys win by being good people. Whereas most of the other books have them winning as a result of their enemies being idiots. (The original series is a mix of both.)

In the Thrawn Trilogy, Luke wins Mara to his side by being constantly kind, helpful, forbearing, and life-saving to her despite her constant hostility, past of working for the Emperor, and openly-stated intent to kill him. Leia wins the allegiance of the Noghri by being willing to put herself in danger by trusting them despite the fact that her only prior experience with them is their attempts to kidnap her and her unborn children. The heroes find Wayland because they decide - despite having a good deal of reasons not to - to trust Mara. They get Kaarde on side by treating him with respect, while Thrawn gains the hostility of Mara, Kaarde, and the other smugglers by disdaining and manipulating them.

All of that is a profoundly idealistic and positive message, much better (and more enjoyble to read) than "Good wins because the bad guys are dumb and overconfident (Kevin J Anderson, I am looking at YOU).

Closet_Skeleton

2013-09-11, 11:03 AM

It's different stories, but I think KotOR (particularly the comics) is more enjoyable if you know who Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Master Arca, and Master Vodo are, and what's the deal with Korriban.

The whole EU works like that. You sometimes have to avoid the bad stuff and just read synopsis but people who want to create a personal cannon that cuts out the bad stories really seem to miss the point and how some of the best stories build upon the not so great ones.

They're not all winners in every story, but the stories in general are pretty cool and well-written without trying to like, horribly overshadow the original trilogy in scale. Full disclaimer, Tales of the Jedi came after my time.

The IG-88 one pretty much over-shadows RotJ. There are some fun ironies in it but they aren't worth the stupidity of it.

I don't really care if anything happens in Tales of the Jedi that's far out there compared to the movies because its a different era. Walk on parts in the Silmarilion can over-shadow anything in Lord of the Rings so I see things like that. There being a guy 5000 years before Palpatine who was more powerful doesn't 'ruin' the films any-more than Alexander the Great being so successful would 'ruin' a narrative about Napoleon.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-11, 01:43 PM

I don't really care if anything happens in Tales of the Jedi that's far out there compared to the movies because its a different era. Walk on parts in the Silmarilion can over-shadow anything in Lord of the Rings so I see things like that. There being a guy 5000 years before Palpatine who was more powerful doesn't 'ruin' the films any-more than Alexander the Great being so successful would 'ruin' a narrative about Napoleon.

I've learned to live with this fact when it comes to The Old Republic. Well, mostly. It still irks me that the game tries too hard to evoke and one-up the films when it's set 2700 years previously, but a Big Bad with Palpatine's personality and Darth Nihilus's god-of-destruction powers doesn't really make that any worse.

(Characters that powerful still work better as 'forces of nature' than actual personalities, but I'll just chalk that up to Obsidian having better writers and Bioware having a better budget.)

Thrudd

2013-09-16, 10:50 PM

I enjoyed a good chunk of Dark Horse Comics' "Republic" series that covered the Clone Wars time period. They were mostly collected in TPB format as "Star Wars: Clone Wars"
Though it might help to start with "Twilight", "Darkness" and "Rite of Passage", as these are the background for Quinlan Vos and Aayla Secura, who are two of the more interesting characters who have an interesting story arc during the Clone Wars. They were popular enough that George Lucas even included them in "Revenge of the Sith", Aayla actually on screen and Quinlan Vos mentioned by name. (I heard there was originally a scene shot or planned for him, similar to Aayla's, but it was cut.)

I like some of the character development of Anakin and Obi Wan during these stories, too. They really make more sense of the characters' motives than what eventually came out of the movies' canon as "Revenge of the Sith".

Also, there are Vampire Ninja Assasins. Yes please.

I loved Tartakovsky's Clone Wars shorts, too. They were ridiculously over the top with the force power for the most part, but that's why they are so much fun. The battle on Coruscant in the second season is amazing, and I love Mace Windu force-crushing Greivous' chest as he is escaping, to explain why he is hunched over and coughing all the time in the movie. :smallcool:

Also, I still believe Mace Windu is alive. There is no way a guy that bad a** was killed just by getting his arm chopped off, some lightning to the face, and flung out a window. He is wandering the lower levels of Coruscant somewhere, a bitter, one-armed old jedi, all grizzled with a grey beard and tattered robes, occasionally choking out mofo's who mess with him (and probably helping the poor deal with criminals sometimes). Lurking in the shadows just waiting for his revenge...(He never got a cybernetic arm because it slightly reduces your attunement to the force...plus he doesn't need two arms, he is just that bad a**)

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-17, 10:01 AM

Also, I still believe Mace Windu is alive. There is no way a guy that bad a** was killed just by getting his arm chopped off, some lightning to the face, and flung out a window. He is wandering the lower levels of Coruscant somewhere, a bitter, one-armed old jedi, all grizzled with a grey beard and tattered robes, occasionally choking out mofo's who mess with him (and probably helping the poor deal with criminals sometimes). Lurking in the shadows just waiting for his revenge...(He never got a cybernetic arm because it slightly reduces your attunement to the force...plus he doesn't need two arms, he is just that bad a**)

I am 99% sure there's a paperback where the plot is exactly this, that I simply haven't read.

No one's allowed to stay dead in Star Wars unless they're related to Luke anyway. Looking at you, Boba Fett.

BWR

2013-09-17, 12:03 PM

I'm pretty sure Windu is dead. I can't recall any book about him set after RotS.
The scene in the novelization is:

Dark lightning blasted away his universe.
He fell forever.

The New Esential Chronology states that he is dead.

hamishspence

2013-09-17, 02:27 PM

I am 99% sure there's a paperback where the plot is exactly this, that I simply haven't read.

"Battered old Jedi that helps the protagonists" does crop up now and again- but not usually as the main character.

The Force Unleashed, for example. Or the Dark Empire II comic book.

Nerd-o-rama

2013-09-17, 02:40 PM

"Battered old Jedi that helps the protagonists" does crop up now and again- but not usually as the main character.

The Force Unleashed, for example. Or the Dark Empire II comic book.

No, I specifically meant Mace Windu, and apparently I was wrong, in spite of patterns established by 15 years of Star Wars novels.

Must have been a Lucasfilm edict, like "no more Wookie Jedi"

hamishspence

2013-09-17, 02:42 PM

Wookiee padawans crop up in The Clone Wars, I'm told.

EDIT: Apparently he was just before the Padawan stage- constructing his own lightsaber in the episode:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gungi

russdm

2013-09-17, 04:31 PM

Karen Travis. her Republic Commandp books and the drek she wrote for Legacy of the Force. The first one, "Republic Commando: Hard Contact" is pretty decent. The rest get increasingly enamored with Clones and Mandalorians, especially Commandos. I love the RC game and think they look awesome, but you can practically hear Travis' screaming orgasms as she furiously wanks them. Also, Jedi are evil, immoral, stupid, indistinguishable from Sith, incompetant, inhuman, cheaters and plain bad. Mandalorians (and clones, which are just Mandalorians in another form) are awesome, perfect, cool, honest, great and only the truly evil would think that a culture that revolves around combat and conquest is anything but the best environment for raising kids in, their armor is suddenly immune to lightsabers, they are teh awesumest warriors and no one can beat them in honorable comabat and nothing they can do is dishonorable and cheating, lying, treason, assassination, murder, torture, whatever is ok because they're Mandalorians.

I have to disagree with this. I actually thought that the series was pretty good and worth reading, especially if you remember that's its all being told from characters with pro-mandalorian viewpoint.

I actually have liked everything I have read in the Star Wars universe, and I have read nearly everything atleast once except for Red Harvest, and the Nil Spaar trilogy. I even read the lost city of the jedi and emperor triculous stuff. While I would say not everything is of the same level of quality, nearly all of it is good, including the prequels. Always remember this handy little hint: IT COULD ALWAYS HAVE BEEN ALOT WORSE

I would suggest going with the books by Zahn first, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command. Follow up with X-Wing then move to other books, but you should definitely read every novel/comics/games at least once before discounting it. Who knows, you may end up liking the Vong. Horrible, I know, but seriously how many superweapons of the week or hidden Imperial Admiral or dark Jedi/Sith troublemaker books have been made already and do we really need more of them? Yes, the Vong may have sucked, but post Vong material is actually pretty good. And everything before a new hope is actually decent.

I consider myself to be blessed that Lucas made the decision to appoint people to make sure that the stories produced in Star Wars would not be just crappy re-tellings of the original trilogy, but ones that could only add to the story. Whether what gets added in is of great quality or in lesser degrees is up to individual determination.

I would like to just add though that Babylon 5 was actually rather not great in regards to its human characters. The best characters in the show were the aliens: Londo, G'Kar, Vir, Mr Morden (his shadow compatriots get add to the alien list; I have no idea how any human could ever feel comfortable next to a shadow considering how they look), deleen, deleen's assistant (Can't remember his name, was L-something-er/ner) and Kosh, oh Kosh, I loved you so much why did they have to kill you???. Few if any of the actual human characters were interesting. Aside from the main cast, the rest weren't just impressive enough, well aside from Bester, by he was played by Chekov from Trek and was pretty good.

Frankly, I was rooting for the aliens by the middle of the second season, and frankly cared little for the actual human characters, aside from the Russian gal, Sheridan, and Marcus (the ranger that gives his life for Russian gal). Garibaldi ended up a drunkard. The pilot dude was too uninteresting (he was a pilot, did they actually ever explore anything else about it besides that?), Doc Emo (the black doctor dude) ended up in trouble getting more and more addicted to stuff and went on a trip, Talia ms-secret-spy in hiding left after being outed and the affect of that was not really covered beyond vague disappointment, Lydia ( miss there before and now back again Kosh lady buddy) got involved with some telepaths-people like her and did some stuff, but she slowly became less interesting, and then you had the various other random humans nearly all of whom who just walk-ons/walk-offs.

By the end of B5's run, only the following were actually important or mattering characters: Sheridan, Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Vir, and that captain woman who used to be married to Sheridan. The others were just bunk.

I just think that B5 started out strong and simply became of a victim of its own success and that the designer/writer Stray-whatshisname keeping trying to make it bigger, flashier, aesopier without putting in more characterization. It seriously could have been better than it was.

hamishspence

2013-09-17, 04:45 PM

I would suggest going with the books by Zahn first, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command. Follow up with X-Wing then move to other books, but you should definitely read every novel/comics/games at least once before discounting it. Who knows, you may end up liking the Vong.

Indeed. That said, some of them can be hard to find.

I tend to find most of them enjoyable to at least some degree- even really quirky ones like The Crystal Star.

HamHam

2013-09-17, 04:46 PM

You're crazy.

Ivanova, Garibaldi, Sheriden, Marcus, and Franklin are all amazing in their own way.

And Bester just steals every scene he's in.

russdm

2013-09-17, 04:56 PM

You're crazy.

Ivanova, Garibaldi, Sheriden, Marcus, and Franklin are all amazing in their own way.

And Bester just steals every scene he's in.

Ivanova got put on a bus, Garibaldi got drunk the married some gal and ended up on mars, Sheridan died and got a temporary lease before vanishing, marcus died causing Ivanova to get put on a bus, and Franklin disappeared to have a walk-about after getting addicted to stuff. We said bye to nearly everyone but Sheridan and Garibaldi at the end of season 4, leaving only Sheridan and Garibaldi being the only cast that been there for more than one season. Lyta came back from the pilot thing, while we got a new woman for Sheridan to replace Ivanova. We didn't get a replacement doc that I know of as it was just franklin, and marcus died after all. Eventually, through season 5 to finish, Garibaldi turned into a bit player and was practically non-existent in the last bit until the whole "De-comissioning" ceremony last episode. That 4 out of 5 human main cast gone! With 3 out of the 5 human main cast you mentioned gone! Bester was never a main cast member.