Please Explain Anime

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I find myself somewhat baffled by Japanese comics and animation. What is the basic appeal of the art style? I know that the iconic nature of the characters helps with vicarious association, but the same thing applies to most other animation. What is it about anime that makes it so popular?

I am not dissing Anime. I don't know it enough about it to dislike it. I am just curious about its popularity. If I better understand it, I may be able to enjoy it more.

[olelia]

I watch it because...well...I like it. I imagine the same goes for people who watch reality shows. I, in general, don't like reality shows....<shrug>

[Tiki Snakes]

Anime just means animation. It isn't really an art-style as much as it is just anything that is animated and that either comes from Japan or is in the style of that kind of thing.

There is a huge range of very different shows, films and so on that can all be described as Anime, so really it might be an idea to clarify what exactly it is you're asking about? Why animations from japan are popular? Why a certain style or genre of the above is popular? Did you have a certain show in mind?

[Hiro Protagonest]

If anime is more popular than western animation, it's because anime doesn't have stigmas as a medium (except for stereotypes us westerners draw from the big three, Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece), unlike western animation which is always either kid's shows or adult comedy.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Anime just means animation. It isn't really an art-style as much as it is just anything that is animated and that either comes from Japan or is in the style of that kind of thing.

There is a huge range of very different shows, films and so on that can all be described as Anime, so really it might be an idea to clarify what exactly it is you're asking about? Why animations from japan are popular? Why a certain style or genre of the above is popular? Did you have a certain show in mind?
I mostly mean Manga (I think that's the correct term?), like Naruto, Bleach, and Sailor Moon.


If anime is more popular than western animation, it's because anime doesn't have stigmas as a medium, unlike western animation which is always either kid's shows or adult comedy.
This stigma annoys me. Its why great movies like the animated The Lord of the Rings are forgotten.

[JoshL]

The thing is this: japanese animation embraced stories for late-teens/adults long before western animation did. The aesthetics of the style are definitely a take-it-or-leave it sort of thing. But the stories were approached with a maturity that is still only occasionally reached with western animation.

And that's maturity vs. "maturity". I appreciate Ralph Bashki for what he was trying to do, but Fritz the Cat is not the same sort of mature storytelling that, say, Grave of the Fireflies was.

Also important to note: the big eyes/small mouth thing came out of japanese artists attempting to imitate the style of american comics, post WW2.

[Tiki Snakes]

Nah, man. I'm sure someone who knows what they're actually talking about can fill you in on the more accurate translation and appropriate terms, but Manga basically equals Comics and Anime basically equals Animation. (Complicated by one of the major Anime publishers being called Manga something or other).

I'm not sure Naruto Bleach and Sailor Moon even share a genre. Well, Naruto and Bleach probably, but they're targeted differently than something like Sailor Moon. I forget the japanese terms, but basically ones targetted at boys and the other girls, kinda, maybe?

But I think I know the kind of thing you mean, in general terms.

[Drakeburn]

This stigma annoys me. Its why great movies like the animated The Lord of the Rings are forgotten.

I don't know if I would say the animated LOTR is that good, but then again I've only seen a review (more like a comparison with Peter Jackson's LOTR), not the actual film.

One thing that I've noticed about anime is that one of the most popular themes in it is war: Nausicaa, Howl's Moving Castle, Castle in the Sky, Gundam, and I'm pretty sure the list goes on.

And there is another theme anime has that has become a cultural phenomenon: mechs. Giant robots that a person or or crew can pilot.

[Eldan]

I mostly mean Manga (I think that's the correct term?), like Naruto, Bleach, and Sailor Moon.

Those are all shows for teenagers. Japanese animation is almost always marketed to one target group, usually divided something like Children, Male Teenagers, Female Teenagers, Adult Men, Adult Women.

Naruto and Bleach, especially, are pretty typical shows for boys. One or more teenagers with superpowers come together to fight a bad guy and become stronger in the process. It's a very basic template, but a lot can be done with it. And it's appealing to that age group. And at least compared to American shows, a lot of Japanese shows are a lot more focused on continuity. The entire show tells one long story, instead of having self-contained episodes. This allows a lot more character development, too.

As for the art style... well, it can really vary quite a lot. There is some absolutely gorgeous stuff out there, better than any other animation I've ever seen.

[Grinner]

That's a hard question...I think it's because Western media takes itself too seriously. Japanese media allows itself some frivolity while still making its point. It's nice to have a change of pace once in a while.

Naturally, I'm making broad generalizations here.

[JoshL]

This stigma annoys me. Its why great movies like the animated The Lord of the Rings are forgotten.

No, it's not forgotten at all. It just wasn't that good (time, budget, etc). Bashki did a better job with Wizards...even Fire and Ice if you have a taste for the half-naked barbarian/Frazetta thing (not everyone's cup of tea). You are right in that it was a solid attempt at adult animation, and to be fair, most of the anime that succeeded was a good 10-15 years after LOTR.

Don't get me wrong; I often rewatch and love Bashki's LOTR for what it is. It's a good effort, but pretty bad on every turn.

[Tebryn]

As others have said "Manga" and "Anime" are no more or less singular entities than American Comics or animated works. They're just broad labels attached to separate the work by an ocean's length. Like American animation Anime and Manga have differing art styles, narrative styles and over all goals. The Amazing Adventures of Flapjack compared to Thundercats for U.S examples. Both are U.S animated projects but their art styles, narritive influences and over all target audiences are wildly different. The same goes for Naruto as opposed to Sky High.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

What are some ways the storytelling and pacing in anime tend to differ from western animation with similar subject matter?

[Eldan]

That's a hard question...I think it's because Western media takes itself too seriously. Japanese media allows itself some frivolity while still making its point. It's nice to have a change of pace once in a while.

Naturally, I'm making broad generalizations here.

Interesting. The shows I watch, I watch for pretty much the opposite. There's barely any animated TV shows outside of anime who have continuous, well-written stories with strong characters, serious or not. If I want gag shows, there's plenty out there.

And really, if there's one thing I dislike about especially Shonen anime, it's the sudden mood swings into unfunny humour. One giant sweatdrop or wildly flailing Chibi and chances are I'm done with a show.


What are some ways the storytelling and pacing in anime tend to differ from western animation with similar subject matter?

Again, continuity. A good anime, at least of the style I like, has a defined running time. There's a beginning and a finale, usually about 23-26 episodes total, though some are half that or even shorter. Every episode picks off where the last one left off and there's no status quo that is restored after an episode. I don't think I've ever encountered that in an American cartoon.

[Tengu_temp]

I mostly mean Manga (I think that's the correct term?), like Naruto, Bleach, and Sailor Moon.

Manga is just the overall term for Japanese comic books, just like anime is the term for Japanese animation.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Manga is just the overall term for Japanese comic books, just like anime is the term for Japanese animation.

I see. What is the term for the art style I'm thinking of?

[Pokonic]

Interesting. The shows I watch, I watch for pretty much the opposite. There's barely any animated TV shows outside of anime who have continuous, well-written stories with strong characters, serious or not. If I want gag shows, there's plenty out there.


This, pretty much. The only non-anime animated shows I can recall that are currantly on air that are not gag shows are Gravity Falls and Adventure Time.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Interesting. The shows I watch, I watch for pretty much the opposite. There's barely any animated TV shows outside of anime who have continuous, well-written stories with strong characters, serious or not. If I want gag shows, there's plenty out there.

Yeah, as robust as the continuities of two of my three favorite western animations, Kim Possible and Phineas and Ferb, are, they're not about that. Status Quo is God in P&F, and was pretty much the same in Kim Possible except for Season 4, and even then the only real differences are the Relationship Upgrade and the twins getting a bigger role. My other favorite is Avatar: The Last Airbender, for the record.

[Eldan]

I see. What is the term for the art style I'm thinking of?

Not sure what you mean by art style, really. The story style of Bleach and Naruto is Shonen. The art style is pretty much just generic Manga.

There are differences in the way Japanese shows are drawn, but some basics are always there. And there can be huge differences in production value, too. Expensive shows can affort much more gorgeous and detailed art.


Edit: yeah. Story is the defining thing for me. A good Anime has no problems changing everything from one episode to the next. Killing characters, introducing new characters, changing characters and their relationships, changing the setting... and ending in a bang, if the show's any good. That's an important one. There's a point where you can say "This is it, this show is done, we are finished with this story".

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Not sure what you mean by art style, really. The story style of Bleach and Naruto is Shonen. The art style is pretty much just generic Manga.

There are differences in the way Japanese shows are drawn, but some basics are always there. And there can be huge differences in production value, too. Expensive shows can affort much more gorgeous and detailed art.

I think what I man by art style is big eyes, tiny noses, hard lines, ridiculous hair, and unsettlingly drawn female characters.

[Tengu_temp]

What are some ways the storytelling and pacing in anime tend to differ from western animation with similar subject matter?

This is hard to answer because they very rarely cover the same subject matter. Like it was said here before, most western animation is either aimed at children or comedy for adults. Relatively serious shows for teens or adults are rare, while in anime they are very common.

Also, western shows tend to be episodic, with little to no continuity between episodes. Anime tends to have a plot, like a very long movie split into multiple episodes. And because of this anime can make the assumption that the viewer will watch the show from episode 1 instead of having to make every episode as if it was the viewer's first, so characters and plotlines can be better developed.


I see. What is the term for the art style I'm thinking of?

I'm confused what you mean by that. There is no specific answer to what these three shows have in common artstyle-wise. Naruto and Bleach are shonen* fighting shows, but that's all.

Unless you mean the fact that the characters have big eyes and small mouths and noses, which is pretty much all anime. But that's nonspecific enough that it doesn't count as a single art style.

* - which just means it's for boys. Shonenm, shoujo, seinen etc are demographics, not genres.

[TheSummoner]

I'll agree with and expand on what was said before...

The appeal is in that anime can tell a serious and mature story where western animation typically does not. Try to make a list of animated shows made in the west that aren't either A) Aimed at children or B) Comedy. There are a few out there, I'm sure, but the list is quite limited compared categories A and B.

This isn't to say that there isn't comedic anime or that serious anime can't have funny moments, just that if you want something with a serious story and animated, then anime has the most to choose from.

You can tell stories through animation that just can't be done (either due to being impossible or being far too expensive) with live action. Animation being a visual medium gives it an advantage over books for people too lazy to read who prefer watching something to reading it. Again, it isn't that western animation can't what anime can, it's that typically it won't. As said before, there is a stigma in the west attached to animation as a medium that portrays it as being for kids with the only exceptions being comedy shows like The Simpsons and South Park.

[Eldan]

"Cartoon"?

Probably just "Anime". Those are traits that are pretty common, really.

A few explanations:

The big eyes came from old American cartoons, interestingly enough. Looney Toons, older Disney, etc. Look at Betty Boop, those eyes are three times the size of anything on Anime.

The colourful hair and ridiculous hairstyles come from times when shows had to be made cheaply. Everyone has more or less the same face, so you stick different primary colour hair on everyone so they can be told apart. Shows can afford bigger budgets now, but the tradition stays. There's also personality types associated with hair colours, it's symbolic.

No idea about the tiny noses. I actually find them pretty unsettling whenever I think too much about them.

Hard lines is a general comic thing, I think.

The unsettling females... have you seen some superhero comics? That's a side effect of "targeted to 12-16 year old males". They like their breasts.

[Tengu_temp]

I think what I man by art style is big eyes, tiny noses, hard lines, ridiculous hair, and unsettlingly drawn female characters.

The first two are pretty much all anime. Third and fourth depends entirely on what show you're watching. I have no idea what you mean with the last one.

Generally, the more mature and serious an anime is, the more subdued its style is, but there's a lot of exceptions to this rule, from both directions.

[Clyner]

Personally, It's for the originality. Japanese shows seem to have alot more imagination behind them then their American counterparts. Granted, people like Whedon and Del Toro are closing that gap, but fall lineups are still filled with CSI knockoffs (or CSI). There's just not enough variety to get me interested. (also, there are six seasons of jersey shore for each season of firefly, what's up with that?)

[Grinner]

Interesting. The shows I watch, I watch for pretty much the opposite. There's barely any animated TV shows outside of anime who have continuous, well-written stories with strong characters, serious or not. If I want gag shows, there's plenty out there.

And really, if there's one thing I dislike about especially Shonen anime, it's the sudden mood swings into unfunny humour. One giant sweatdrop or wildly flailing Chibi and chances are I'm done with a show.

That's just the thing. Plenty of anime series maintain a continuity and still do the cartoon comedy shtick. Case and point, Baka & Test. It spends twelve episodes making fun of every anime and manga trope and then smacks you over the head with the most poignant, pointed ending on the thirteenth. You never see it coming.

And shonen, well...I suppose that's hard to do well. I think the writers just get wrapped up in making a sweeping epic and forget that they're supposed to be writing a story. I thought early arcs of Bleach were actually pretty good. Then it dragged on, and the battles got longer and longer and longer. Eventually I just gave up on it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think what I man by art style is big eyes, tiny noses, hard lines, ridiculous hair, and unsettlingly drawn female characters.

That last one is Oda's style. Although there are no doubt other illustrators who do similar ones.

[Eldan]

I wouldn't be so sure about originality. I mean, I'm no expert, but I imagine that for every good show we hear off in the West, there's two dozen cheap knockoffs of whatever was popular two years ago, too.

As for differences in quality, just a few of the bette rdrawn females I could think of right now:

http://nanashi-subs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Nanashi_Seirei_no_Moribito_02_1280x720_H.264_Hi10P _AAC_D4CACF17.mkv_snapshot_02.10_2012.11.05_13.57. 58.png

http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpaper/motoko_kusanagi_ghost_in_the_shell_desktop_1920x10 80_hd-wallpaper-1041927.jpg

http://outnow.ch/Media/Movies/Bilder/2004/GhostInTheShell2/movie.ws/14.jpg

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs47/i/2009/220/e/4/Ergo_Proxy_Dreamscene_by_namkolee.jpg

[NNescio]

I see. What is the term for the art style I'm thinking of?

Mukokuseki. (http://culturalproductionblog.com/?p=143)

Lit: "statelessness, without national identity."

See also this. (http://whatismanga.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/8c-whats-japan-got-to-do-with-it-mukokuseki-ronin-and-kabuki-circle-of-blood/)

Iwabuchi Koichi's book (referred to in both articles) provides an interesting read on this subject.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

The unsettling females... have you seen some superhero comics? That's a side effect of "targeted to 12-16 year old males". They like their breasts.
I didn't say anime was the only thing guilty of that.


I have no idea what you mean with the last one.
When I said "unsettlingly drawn female characters", I meant that that the character designs are often so sexualized that they become disquieting. The effect is compounded by the fact that many of these character appear to be about thirteen years old.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Edit: yeah. Story is the defining thing for me. A good Anime has no problems changing everything from one episode to the next. Killing characters, introducing new characters, changing characters and their relationships, changing the setting... and ending in a bang, if the show's any good. That's an important one. There's a point where you can say "This is it, this show is done, we are finished with this story".

Evangelion 2.22 was on Toonami last night. As someone who's never seen anything of this kind before, it was a most unsettling experience.

[TheSummoner]

Evangelion 2.22 was on Toonami last night. As someone who's never seen anything of this kind before, it was a most unsettling experience.

As someone who HAS seen that sort of thing before, it was still an unsettling experience.

[Silkspinner]

See, I understand its appeal as a non-humorous, adult-themed cartoon... but it's the rampant fanaticism and/or life-style of the fan that confuses me.

Granted, I wasn't raised with TV, so I watched very few cartoons.

I'm currently an adult learner at my college and from teens and tweens up to other adult learners, all those that enjoy it do so a little too much. As in, if someone even mentions a show or character the next several hours will be devoted solely to its discussion to the exclusion of all else.

I'd go so far as to say it now has its own culture.

And here's the other strange fact that I've noticed, every one of these folks are the awkward outcasts. During club day at my college I passed by the anime club table and EVERY one of them were those I normally saw eating by themselves.

I'm considering writing a paper on it, except I'm afraid of offending folks, because as far as my observations have so far shown, they are into it as an escape, not so much as an enjoyment (though of course they do enjoy it as well). I've not yet met one social, attractive, happy person in this college or out who enjoys anime. Its all those with some aspect of personality or appearance that causes them to withdraw that enjoys it :smallconfused:

[GoblinArchmage]

See, I understand its appeal as a non-humorous, adult-themed cartoon... but it's the rampant fanaticism and/or life-style of the fan that confuses me.

Granted, I wasn't raised with TV, so I watched very few cartoons.

I'm currently an adult learner at my college and from teens and tweens up to other adult learners, all those that enjoy it do so a little too much. As in, if someone even mentions a show or character the next several hours will be devoted solely to its discussion to the exclusion of all else.

I'd go so far as to say it now has its own culture.

And here's the other strange fact that I've noticed, every one of these folks are the awkward outcasts. During club day at my college I passed by the anime club table and EVERY one of them were those I normally saw eating by themselves.

I'm considering writing a paper on it, except I'm afraid of offending folks, because as far as my observations have so far shown, they are into it as an escape, not so much as en enjoyment (though of course they do enjoy it as well). I've not yet met one social, attractive, happy person in this college or out who enjoys anime. Its all those with some aspect of personality or appearance that causes them to withdraw that enjoys it :smallconfused:

There also seems to be a weird sense of elitism in some of those fans, as if Japanese cartoons, just by being Japanese, are wholly separate from and superior to all other cartoons.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I notice the characters in several Animes that take place in Japan look rather Caucasian. Is there a concrete reason for this? Like maybe a condescending attempt to appeal to an American audience?


See, I understand its appeal as a non-humorous, adult-themed cartoon... but it's the rampant fanaticism and/or life-style of the fan that confuses me.

Granted, I wasn't raised with TV, so I watched very few cartoons.

I'm currently an adult learner at my college and from teens and tweens up to other adult learners, all those that enjoy it do so a little too much. As in, if someone even mentions a show or character the next several hours will be devoted solely to its discussion to the exclusion of all else.

I'd go so far as to say it now has its own culture.

And here's the other strange fact that I've noticed, every one of these folks are the awkward outcasts. During club day at my college I passed by the anime club table and EVERY one of them were those I normally saw eating by themselves.

I'm considering writing a paper on it, except I'm afraid of offending folks, because as far as my observations have so far shown, they are into it as an escape, not so much as en enjoyment (though of course they do enjoy it as well). I've not yet met one social, attractive, happy person in this college or out who enjoys anime. Its all those with some aspect of personality or appearance that causes them to withdraw that enjoys it :smallconfused:
If you write that paper, would you be allowed to post it on the internet? It sounds potentially interesting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As someone who HAS seen that sort of thing before, it was still an unsettling experience.

For me, it was like this: I was introduced to three characters. These characters were teenagers who were experienced at piloting these strange mecha, manmade gods called Evas. The movie was about the lives of these characters, as they fight powerful beings from space called Angels, go to school, and live with each other. By the end of the movie, one of them was definitely dead, which led to a Heroic BSOD for another since his father did not give the order to shut down the AI in his Eva even after the infected Eva, with the pilot inside, was knocked down and maimed, and let it continue until it destroyed the source of the infection which still had the pilot inside, the actions of the second to save the third led directly to the start of an apocalypse while at the same time doing what the people in charge had been hoping for (the ascension of an Eva into a true god), and the two that were still alive are never disclosed at the end of the movie as to what state they're in after the Eva ascended.

[Eldan]

It's still a bit a nerdy hobby, yeah.

But have you ever walked into a public viewing space after a football game just ended? Just throw the name of [popular team's goalie] into your typical break room, if you want every male in there occupied for two hours.
Or been near a stadium after a final? At least anime fans don't bring selfmade explosives in case their favourite character dies in the finale.

ON Caucasianness: there's a longer link above, but the short version is this: Japanese products for an international market try to be non-Japanese to avoid alienating Westerners, for various reasons.

And Evangelion... that show was designed from the ground up to be weird and disturbing. It has that effect on everyone. Just watch End of Evangelion, sometime.

[Silkspinner]

If you write that paper, would you be allowed to post it on the internet? It sounds potentially interesting.
Sure. I'm on first name basis with a good few of them, as I like to cheer folks up and eat with them, so might be able to get some family history and such to see what common factor they share.


But have you ever walked into a public viewing space after a football game just ended? Just throw the name of [popular team's goalie] into your typical break room, if you want every male in there occupied for two hours.
Or been near a stadium after a final? At least anime fans don't bring selfmade explosives in case their favourite character dies in the finale.
I absolutely agree with you in that sports fans can match the fanaticism of anime lovers, but here's where the two deviate; the sports fan is watching a team of live humans. A team is people interacting and socially supporting the other, and those watching them tend to do so with other social people. In fact, sports fans tend to be the most social people I've ever met.

They don't watch the sport to get away from it all (at least to my knowledge), they do it out of enjoyment and the camaraderie of others around them. I have no interest in watching soccer despite the fact I coach it, yet when my Uncle and cousin and their friends, avid soccer fans, invited me to watch the world cup with them, I found I had a lot of fun doing it simply because of the atmosphere.

All of this tends to be the opposite of the anime fan. Only the level of fanaticism is shared.

[Terraoblivion]

I see. What is the term for the art style I'm thinking of?

There isn't one. A lot of what you're commenting on essentially comes down to focusing on differences from what you're used to, to the exclusion of differences within your sample. Just looking at the three you mentioned, Naruto and Bleach are 2000s Shounen Jump which is a relatively distinct art style of its own, though there are clear differences between the rather angular style of Bleach and Naruto's much softer look. Still, they're definitely similar in a lot of ways. And you would find a lot of similarities looking at a lot of other Shounen Jump titles from between 2000 and 2010, regardless of the genre of the story. You're not going to find many manga looking like that in other magazines, especially ones that aren't classified as shounen.

Sailor Moon on the other hand looks nothing like them. It has the late 80s and 90s shoujo style of switching between light, etherial panels and fairly basic panels featuring sharp lines. It also has lots of little embellishments, symbolic background additions and similar that was common to the shoujo demographic in the 90s. It also has soft, fluffy hair that's quite different from that of the other two series you mentioned.

Really, the only major similarities in the art I can see are the fact that they're all uncolored most of the time, backgrounds are often absent and it's clear that it wasn't work created by someone who has the time to immaculately polish every panel to perfection. Those and large eyes and pointy noses, though I'm not sure Naruto actually has pointy noses, but the former isn't exactly unusual in western animation or comics either.

Also, this brings up the problem with sample size. Manga also includes works such as Lone Wolf and Cub (http://i17.mangareader.net/lone-wolf-and-cub/20/lone-wolf-and-cub-1622707.jpg) as well as extremely cartoony works, though the one I was about to name, Crayon Shin-Chan (http://gallery.minitokyo.net/view/520462) is apparently only an anime. It also completely misses styles such as moe (http://i7.mangareader.net/k-on/16/k-on-530542.jpg), nicer looking moe (http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/2127/253673/1.jpg), freaky science fiction (http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/7759/174253/9.jpg) or grimdark medieval sword fighting (http://i36.mangapanda.com/claymore/112/claymore-2454281.jpg). Just to give a few examples.


I mostly mean Manga (I think that's the correct term?), like Naruto, Bleach, and Sailor Moon.

You mean two early 2000s Shounen Jump manga and an early 90s Nakayoshi manga? The first two are relatively similar in that they're both long-running action manga targeted teenage boys that ran in the same magazine at the same time. There are differences, with Naruto being broader, goofier and more colorful and inventive, than the comparatively brooding Bleach. They still have major similarities in story structure and the fact that they just aren't ending, no matter how long they run. This in turn creates a number of plot complications as well as methods to drag things out, such as fights that last for literally months of publication.

On the other hand Sailor Moon's story has Usagi's love for Mamoru as a central element, at least early on which is the part I'm currently reading, a far more episodic structure and a plot that's moving ahead quite fast. It also has a far smaller cast of characters than either Naruto or Bleach, just like physical conflict is portrayed massively differently. I also found that contrary to complaints about the anime, the manga moves at a very brisk pace with every chapter introducing something major.

It's quite fundamentally different from the other two, even while being an adventure story about heroically facing evil on a grand scale. And then there are manga about everything from the need to introduce gay marriage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/WifeAndWife) to porn to weird takes on Japanese mythology (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TouhouOtherOfficialWorks) to Jesus and Buddha living as underemployed bums (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/SaintYoungMen?from=Main.SaintYoungMen) to the life of ordinary nerds (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/Genshiken?from=Main.Genshiken). In short a whole lot of stuff, even beyond what I touched upon here.

[JoshL]

I notice the characters in several Animes that take place in Japan look rather Caucasian. Is there a concrete reason for this? Like maybe a condescending attempt to appeal to an American audience?

You need to consider the time period. WW2. Americans just nuked the hell out of japan. Their worldview was based on the Emperor is one step away from God and always right. Always. But this alien culture just came in and stomped all over them. So what do you do after that? Assimilate. Take what you can, because that philosophy just stomped all over yours. You take what you can from their art and culture and bring it into your own, because on some level you see that as possibly a "better" way.

That's, of course, no longer 100% true. Manga and anime have in many ways grown beyond the "trying to look like western culture" phase, but there's still remnants of it.

[Prime32]

ON Caucasianness: there's a longer link above, but the short version is this: Japanese products for an international market try to be non-Japanese to avoid alienating Westerners, for various reasons.It's more that their features are generic, so the viewer tends to see them as their own race. That is, to a Japanese person those characters look Japanese.

When a character is supposed to be Caucasian (and not a main character) they tend to have a pretty distinctive look, with a prominent nose, small eyes and square features.

[Eldan]

Hm. I only really got into Anime (at least into Anime that I knew was Anime, there were a few animated versions of European children's books that ran when I was a kid) when my RPG group started sitting down after games and watching Naruto together. We were all, oh, about 16 at the time. Then we started watching other shows. For me, that was always a thing I prefer doing in a group. At least for the more action or comedy heavy shows. The quieter shows, I watch alone. (Really, I can't imagine watching ,say, Mushishi with others. Too meditative.)

[Terraoblivion]

See, I understand its appeal as a non-humorous, adult-themed cartoon... but it's the rampant fanaticism and/or life-style of the fan that confuses me.

Granted, I wasn't raised with TV, so I watched very few cartoons.

I'm currently an adult learner at my college and from teens and tweens up to other adult learners, all those that enjoy it do so a little too much. As in, if someone even mentions a show or character the next several hours will be devoted solely to its discussion to the exclusion of all else.

I'd go so far as to say it now has its own culture.

And here's the other strange fact that I've noticed, every one of these folks are the awkward outcasts. During club day at my college I passed by the anime club table and EVERY one of them were those I normally saw eating by themselves.

I'm considering writing a paper on it, except I'm afraid of offending folks, because as far as my observations have so far shown, they are into it as an escape, not so much as an enjoyment (though of course they do enjoy it as well). I've not yet met one social, attractive, happy person in this college or out who enjoys anime. Its all those with some aspect of personality or appearance that causes them to withdraw that enjoys it :smallconfused:

How is this any different from, say, Star Trek or professional sports or video games? :smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

You need to consider the time period. WW2. Americans just nuked the hell out of japan. Their worldview was based on the Emperor is one step away from God and always right. Always. But this alien culture just came in and stomped all over them. So what do you do after that? Assimilate. Take what you can, because that philosophy just stomped all over yours. You take what you can from their art and culture and bring it into your own, because on some level you see that as possibly a "better" way.

There's also the fact that America actively participated in the foundation of a new Japanese government; General MacArthur was in charge of laying down the new groundwork.

I could also talk all day about what would've happened if the Japanese decided not to attack Pearl Harbor (the Americans are hesitating to send soldiers to help UK and France proper, let alone some small colonies in Asia, and the Imperials could've taken all of China and let a year or two go by to improve relations and build infrastructure, even if they felt the attack on America was needed to take the islands), but that's another matter.

[Grinner]

I absolutely agree with you in that sports fans can match the fanaticism of anime lovers, but here's where the two deviate; the sports fan is watching a team. A team is people interacting and socially supporting the other, and those watching them tend to do so with other social people. In fact, sports fans tend to be the most social people I've ever met.

"Watching" being the operating word there. The team is interacting, because they're a team. The fan, however, is not part of the team. The difference is that he can shout about the team without getting queer looks. The anime fan can't.

[Terraoblivion]

I notice the characters in several Animes that take place in Japan look rather Caucasian. Is there a concrete reason for this? Like maybe a condescending attempt to appeal to an American audience.

White doesn't mean American, statistically speaking it mostly means European you know. :smalltongue:

Anyway, yes there is. The reason is that you're used to looking at white people, so you associate what you see with white people. That is how the Japanese see idealized versions of themselves. When actual white people show up, they tend to not only be blond, but also a lot burlier and generally bigger than normal for anime characters.

[Silkspinner]

How is this any different from, say, Star Trek or professional sports or video games? :smallconfused:
The anime fans tend to also be the video game fanatics. Not a clue about Star Trek folks, though sports fans see my last post.


"Watching" being the operating word there. The team is interacting, because they're a team. The fan, however, is not part of the team. The difference is that he can shout about the team without getting queer looks. The anime fan can't.
The guys covered in paint and glitter and wearing strange hats/objects often do get weird looks, even amongst sports fanatics. The problem is that most anime fans I've encountered are the equivalent of the guys covered in paint in level of fanaticism.

[TheSummoner]

For me, it was like this: I was introduced to three characters. These characters were teenagers who were experienced at piloting these strange mecha, manmade gods called Evas. The movie was about the lives of these characters. By the end of the movie, one of them was definitely dead, which led to a Heroic BSOD for another since his father did not give the order to shut down the AI in his Eva even after the infected Eva, with the pilot inside, was knocked down and maimed, and let it continue until it destroyed the source of the infection which still had the pilot inside, the actions of the second to save the third led directly to the start of an apocalypse, and the two that were still alive are never disclosed at the end of the movie as to what state they're in after the Eva ascended.

Here's my experience. I've never actually seen Neon Genesis Evangelion (It's on my list). I didn't have Cartoon Network during the original western run. I have, however seen my share of anime that isn't afraid to kill off characters, sometimes in rather bloody ways.

I nearly threw up during the Ninth Angel scene. The dissonance between what was happening and the music just made it all the more disturbing. (That said, Asuka, the girl inside, does survive. It's easy to miss, but they mentioned they had to quarantine her because they feared mental contamination). That scene in particular was incredibly disturbing... And it was meant to be.

There's two more movies after Evangelion 2.22, so the story is only half over.

[thubby]

the lack of age ghetto is nice.

for me, though, a lot of it is scale. anime are willing to be grand and, as overused is the term is, epic.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There's two more movies after Evangelion 2.22, so the story is only half over.

Oh, I knew the story wasn't over. It was definitely a cliffhanger ending.

As for other media like it, Cave Story is probably the most depressing thing I've seen, but I now have Spec Ops: The Line sitting in my Steam library since I pre-ordered The Bureau: XCOM Declassified. I saw Sin City on SyFy once, but that's just plain grimdark and I thought it was a little silly because of that.

[druid91]

Those are all shows for teenagers. Japanese animation is almost always marketed to one target group, usually divided something like Children, Male Teenagers, Female Teenagers, Adult Men, Adult Women.

IIRC

Shonen is male tweens/teenagers and is your normal Dragon Ball, Naruto, Bleach... Lots of action and shouting special attacks, less sex and gore, not that that's entirely contained there is bleed through but that's sort of the general rule.

Shojo is female tweens/teenagers, lots of romance, slice of life-ish things. Can't remember much of this, because my sole exposure was being given a copy of Shojo Beat that the library was going to throw out.

Seinen is for older male teenagers/early 20's, similar genre's to shonen but... well a lot bloodier, and sex is a bit more there instead of just being there enough so that they can make hammerspace jokes. Take a look at Deadman Wonderland, Hellsing, or Darker than Black for an example. (Or, for the first two, if you aren't fond of Gorn, don't.)

Josei, is similarly, for females of the same age, supposedly it's more adult romance, but seeing as I've never read any of it, I can't say for sure.

And I forget what the one for kids is called.

[Prime32]

I absolutely agree with you in that sports fans can match the fanaticism of anime lovers, but here's where the two deviate; the sports fan is watching a team of live humans. A team is people interacting and socially supporting the other, and those watching them tend to do so with other social people. In fact, sports fans tend to be the most social people I've ever met.

They don't watch the sport to get away from it all (at least to my knowledge), they do it out of enjoyment and the camaraderie of others around them. I have no interest in watching soccer despite the fact I coach it, yet when my Uncle and cousin and their friends, avid soccer fans, invited me to watch the world cup with them, I found I had a lot of fun doing it simply because of the atmosphere.

All of this tends to be the opposite of the anime fan. Only the level of fanaticism is shared.Eh? :smallconfused: That's just because if you're a sports fan, it's easier to find other sports fans. It's the environment, not the people.

If you take them to an anime convention then an anime fan will be hypersocial and a sports fan will be the weird guy who sits quietly in the corner.

[Eldan]

Note to self: I think I need to read Saint Young Men. It sounds hilarious.

[Grinner]

The guys covered in paint and glitter and wearing strange hats/objects often do get weird looks, even amongst sports fanatics. The problem is that most anime fans I've encountered are the equivalent of the guys covered in paint in level of fanaticism.

Fair point, but consider who you're classifying as an anime fan. The occasional viewers? The fanatics? Somewhere between?

Now who are you classifying as a sports fan? The people who just keep up with the scores? The guys who attend every game in full battle dress*? Somewhere between?

How vocal must someone be about their interests to be considered a fan?

*body paint and funny hats

Edit:

for me, though, a lot of it is scale. anime are willing to be grand and, as overused is the term is, epic.

I think that's a good way of phrasing it.

[Eldan]

Yeah. I know people who watched all of Cowboy Bebop, shrugged, said "That was pretty good" and then never watched any Anime again. There's degrees in everything.

[Mx.Silver]

It's kind of a difficult question to answer, it's sort of like asking 'what's the appeal of French Cinema, or Canadian Bands?'.


For myself, the reason is mostly two-fold. First, I appreciate animation as a medium - and Japan puts it to more varied use than most other countries generally do (i.e. it's not all aimed at kids). Basically, if you want to see more than a small amount of animated works with good writing behind them and/or depth then you pretty much have to get into it. Art-style itself isn't really the main factor, not least because there's actually quite a lot of variation of style between series and films (and also quality, but that's another topic).

Second, a lot of anime series tend towards a continuous narrative rather than an episodic one. That is, a lot of series treat individual episodes like chapters in the same book, rather than self-contained stories*. Even series that do have episodic moments still tend to have a strong over-arching story. This style does have it's cons (it's harder to come-into such a show midway) but overall I still prefer it. It also makes most series much more suited to marathoning, if that's your thing.




This isn't to say most anime is good, obviously. As with any medium, there's a lot of mediocre-to-worse stuff kicking around. That doesn't invalidate the higher quality works though, of which there quite a lot (I'd argue it's one of the best things to ever happen to the Fantasy genre, for example).

*western shows do sometimes employ this as well (e.g. 24, Heroes) but it's rather less commonly used.



I notice the characters in several Animes that take place in Japan look rather Caucasian. Is there a concrete reason for this? Like maybe a condescending attempt to appeal to an American audience.
Due to a number of reasons, a Japanese audience generally perceives those characters as looking ethnically Japanese, rather than caucasian. This becomes more obvious if you see an anime which actually does feature caucasian characters alongside Japanese ones, as then you will often see differences.

EDIT: Or what Terraoblivion said, basically.



There also seems to be a weird sense of elitism in some of those fans, as if Japanese cartoons, just by being Japanese, are wholly separate from and superior to all other cartoons.
That's a fairly common attitude amongst a lot of nerdier hobbies, really.

[TheSummoner]

Eh? :smallconfused: That's just because if you're a sports fan, it's easier to find other sports fans. It's the environment, not the people.

If you take them to an anime convention then an anime fan will be hypersocial and a sports fan will be the weird guy who sits quietly in the corner.

That and that being a sports fan tends to be more socially acceptable. It's not that anime appeals to people who have trouble fitting in with the larger group, it's that the larger group tends to not accept those who enjoy anime as readily.

[Tengu_temp]

I've never seen anyone starting a brawl over anime, so there's one point for anime fans over sports fans.



When I said "unsettlingly drawn female characters", I meant that that the character designs are often so sexualized that they become disquieting. The effect is compounded by the fact that many of these character appear to be about thirteen years old.

Depends entirely on the show then. But do note that the fanservice in Sailor Moon is not really fanservice, because the show is aimed mostly at preteen and young teenage girls. Also, nitpick but the vast majority of anime characters are highschool-aged: from the three shows you mentioned only the main characters in Naruto aren't (but they are after the timeskip).


stuff

Do not this is mostly a broad strokes generalization. A lot of shonen is slice of life comedy. A lot of shojo is about magical girls and contains plenty of action. A lot of seinen is slow-paced and atmospheric (hell, I'd say this is more common for this demographic than "shonen but more violent"). And so on and so on. There's a reason these are demographics and not genres.

[Eldan]

If it was just brawls... we have riots over soccer games pretty regularly. And not just finals. Burning cars, police in riot gear, walled-off paths to the stadium with weapon checks, everything. No deaths yet that I know off, but it has happened in other countries.

[Mx.Silver]

I've never seen anyone starting a brawl over anime, so there's one point for anime fans over sports fans.


Being from The Land of Football Hooligans, I can attest to this. Anime fans aren't really in the same, even if the subtitles/dubbed argument can get a bit heated at times :smalltongue:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

That is how the Japanese see idealized versions of themselves.

I find the idea of a culture seeing heaving the features of another ethnicity being ideal somewhat worrying. There needs to be some kind of inferiority complex going on to produce that.

[afroakuma]

I find the idea of a culture seeing heaving the features of another ethnicity being ideal somewhat worrying. There needs to be some kind of inferiority complex going on to produce that.

It's not "ideal," it's mukokuseki - genericism with non-ethnic diversity traits like fantastically-colored hair and eyes.

[Kitten Champion]

That's not because they have a disdain for their own appearance, no one looks like that anyways, it's simple pathos. The hyperbolic features allow for a greater depth of expression with less artistic detail by simply making them more obvious. The hair allows for greater distinction between characters within the art style which is pretty similar in their physical templates. On a simply visual level brown and black doesn't catch the eye as much as cotton candy pink and turquoise, although many anime try to avoid egregious colour schemes.

Actually, it's not too distinct from kabuki theatre, if you've seen a performance in the style.

[TheSummoner]

I find the idea of a culture seeing heaving the features of another ethnicity being ideal somewhat worrying. There needs to be some kind of inferiority complex going on to produce that.


It's not "ideal," it's mukokuseki - genericism with non-ethnic diversity traits like fantastically-colored hair and eyes.

Indeed. The characters only look white to a white audience. To a Japanese audience, they look Japanese. It's a blank slate that the viewer projects their own features onto. Of course, it sorta breaks down when the audience has darker skin tones...

[Mx.Silver]

I find the idea of a culture seeing heaving the features of another ethnicity being ideal somewhat worrying. There needs to be some kind of inferiority complex going on to produce that.

Except that those characters don't have the features of another ethnicity to a Japanese audience. It just looks that way to you because you're from a majority caucasian country, so when you see 'big eyes, light skin' you parse that as being white. The hair colour thing is because it differentiates characters easily (blues, pinks and greens are almost as common as blondes and oranges for this reason).


EDIT: and Ninja'd again.

[thubby]

I notice the characters in several Animes that take place in Japan look rather Caucasian. Is there a concrete reason for this? Like maybe a condescending attempt to appeal to an American audience?

the traditional sense of beauty in japan is to have pale skin, pitch black hair, and large expressive eyes.
taken to cartoonish lengths and i can see where it might look caucasian.

actual westerners are often characterized by large size (average asian height being lower than western countries), body and facial hair (considered dirty and the ability to actually grow a full beard is somewhat rare in japan), and usually loud, borish, or plain rude (due to the comparatively informal nature of many western cultures and japan's litany of unique social norms)

[Tetsujin-28]

The appeal of anime is that so much more has been done with it than western cartoons. Western cartoons are pretty much either comedic or standard saturday morning dreck, with very very few exceptions. Not that anime doesn't have dreck or comedy either, but really, there's very little, if anything at all, in western animation that's quite like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Mindgame, Neon Genesis Evangelion, or Umineko no Naku Koro ni. On the downside, there's also nothing in western animation that's quite like Bible Black. :smalleek:


**snipped for length**

Anime is an obscure subject over in America. The only way to really get introduced to it is to lurk around in the "seedier" parts of the internet. People who do that tend to be outcasts. That's probably the main variable here.


I notice the characters in several Animes that take place in Japan look rather Caucasian. Is there a concrete reason for this? Like maybe a condescending attempt to appeal to an American audience?

Disney was a huge inspiration on anime. A couple of users have implied this is due to American imperialism, but this isn't the case. Even before WW2 started, animators watched Disney films and were inspired by them. Even anti-American propaganda films were made by animators who loved Disney.

The Disney inspirations got cranked up when Osamu Tezuka hit the scene. He was a HUGE fan of Disney, watching their films religiously when he was a child. He started drawing manga, heavily based off Disney style, and they got popular. And when something gets popular, it gets imitated. Thus, the proliferation of the anime art style. And as a few users above me have noted, the cartoon style makes it rather easy to impose your own race on there. Caucasians don't go running around with pink hair and purple eyes, now do they? It has nothing to do with pleasing Americans; Japanese animators give no hoots about them as anime has never been a significant moneymaker over in America outside of a very, very, select exceptions.

[Togath]

Of course, with hair, there's also the fact that the colours just look cool:smalltongue:.

[Mando Knight]

Anime is an obscure subject over in America. The only way to really get introduced to it is to lurk around in the "seedier" parts of the internet. People who do that tend to be outcasts. That's probably the main variable here.

So we're "seedy" now, are we? :smalltongue:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

The only anime I've ever really gotten into is Paprika (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851578/). I much of the reason I liked it was the labyrinthine plot, and the fact that none of the characters were hypersexualized in unsettling ways.

What are some other animes with similar themes and imagery?

[Tetsujin-28]

So we're "seedy" now, are we? :smalltongue:

Consider it self-deprecation :smalltongue:

Maybe seedy was poor wording, but I can't really think of a good term to describe it. To get access to most anime or to even really discuss it most of the time, you have to go deep into the Internet, beyond your standard, "casual" Facebook/9gag/twitter stuff. And a lot of those places I'd rather not get caught browsing during school/work.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Consider it self-deprecation :smalltongue:

Maybe seedy was poor wording, but I can't really think of a good term to describe it. To get access to most anime or to even really discuss it most of the time, you have to go deep into the Internet, beyond your standard, "casual" Facebook/9gag/twitter stuff. And a lot of those places I'd rather not get caught browsing during school/work.

Like 4chan. I just don't get 4chan.

[Alabenson]

The only anime I've ever really gotten into is Paprika (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851578/). I much of the reason I liked it was the labyrinthine plot, and the fact that none of the characters were hypersexualized in unsettling ways.

What are some other animes with similar themes and imagery?

You may like Paranoia Agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_Agent), which was a 13 episode show done by the same director.

Also, if you prefer complex characterization and more realistic character design, I'd probably recommend Monster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(anime)) as well.

[Poison_Fish]

See, I understand its appeal as a non-humorous, adult-themed cartoon... but it's the rampant fanaticism and/or life-style of the fan that confuses me.

Like most fandoms, individuals exist on a spectrum. The level of passion in the anime fandom is pretty much the same you will find in others.


And here's the other strange fact that I've noticed, every one of these folks are the awkward outcasts. During club day at my college I passed by the anime club table and EVERY one of them were those I normally saw eating by themselves.

I'm considering writing a paper on it, except I'm afraid of offending folks, because as far as my observations have so far shown, they are into it as an escape, not so much as an enjoyment (though of course they do enjoy it as well). I've not yet met one social, attractive, happy person in this college or out who enjoys anime. Its all those with some aspect of personality or appearance that causes them to withdraw that enjoys it :smallconfused:

You've already made some pretty strong generalizations here. Including some subjective biases. I can only urge caution in attempting to write anything of an ethnographic nature.

[thubby]

The only anime I've ever really gotten into is Paprika (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851578/). I much of the reason I liked it was the labyrinthine plot, and the fact that none of the characters were hypersexualized in unsettling ways.

What are some other animes with similar themes and imagery?

anything by studio ghibli. spirited away, my neighbor totoro, and howl's moving castle are all family friendly but capture that dream like quality.

perfect blue is not family friendly at all and does deal with sexual themes but it's not for the sake of getting a rise out of the audience. I can't quite tell you why they feel so similar, but they do. i guess they're both kind of surreal?

[Rising Phoenix]

anything by studio ghibli. spirited away, my neighbor totoro, and howl's moving castle are all family friendly but capture that dream like quality.

perfect blue is not family friendly at all and does deal with sexual themes but it's not for the sake of getting a rise out of the audience. I can't quite tell you why they feel so similar, but they do. i guess they're both kind of surreal?

I second this. But I will warn that nearly all ghibli films have a nightmarish aspect for e.g. no-face in Spirited Away, but then that movie is directed to 12-14 yos rather than 5-10 yos. Regardless they are well worth watching and Spirited Away along with Princess Mononoke are among my favorite movies of all time.

[Avilan the Grey]

I always find it ridiculous when people argue there isn't a "japanese art style" or "an anime art style".
There might be several, I agree that they can look quite dissimilar compared to eachother, but they sure are distinguable; I can recognize a japanese- or japanese-inspired production in about 0,02 seconds. Just like I can identify a Franco-belgian comic, or an American superhero comic.

There are a few exceptions, of course, such as Blueberry:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Blueberry_Giraud.png
who is so realistically drawn that you cannot determine it's Franco-Belgian origin.

Anyway, I have a very very hard time with the Japanese art style(s) and tend to avoid productions just because of this (plus, quite frankly, most things I have read or watched has been too weird for me). There are exceptions, I am currently sticking with Pixietrix comics (heavily Manga-inspired) despite really not liking the art style (part of that being that I started reading M3 before the art change).

Oh and of course sometimes there are an odd... closeness between Franco-Belgian art and Japanese... such as this gem (oh I miss this show. I was 8 when it ran on TV...)
http://i2.listal.com/image/2279494/600full-once-upon-a-time...-space-poster.jpg

[thubby]

mononoke looked amazing (what doesnt out of ghibli, right?) but just felt like it was trying too hard.
like theres all this graphic violence and gore but it's just staged poorly.

[Boci]

Regarding the sexualization of young girls in anime, that's because the age of consent in Japan is 13. A similar thing happened when the UK series Skins was exported to the USA, which had a scene that constituted child pornography in the USA due to different ages of consent (16 in the UK, 18 in the USA). Only that was a bit more serious since it was live action.

Sorry if someone already made this point, I didn't see it mentioned when I skimmed.

[Yora]

Nah, sexualizing of girls is a big thing in America (and Europe) as well. All those little girl beauty contests and bikinis for 4 year olds...

One thing to consider is that the Japanese themselves are not entirely open to and happy with everything either. The Japanese Otaku has a far worse reputation than american Nerds ever had. As a society that places far greater value in conformity, those who don't fit in might even be considered worse freaks than some slightly weird guy in America or Europe.
It's just that this layer of the culture gets entirely filtered out when all you see is photos.

Speaking for myself, I really love quite a number of manga and some anime. However, I don't see anything in Naruto and Yugioh (which I despised even when that anime thing started here in Germany, but I was 15 at that time and above any "kiddy-stuff"). Those that I like are hard science fiction and gritty crime shows.
When compared to American entertainment, I like stuff that is like Watchmen, Sandman, The Dark Knight (movie), Blade Runner, Inception, Conan (books or comics), Metropolis, Alien, The Thing, Terminator, ...
Those are american comics and monster movies, but still for a mature audience that wants to get heavy stuff to think about.

Yes, I enjoyed Elfen Lied (the manga, not the bad anime). Which technically is full of gore and nudity (and gratitous nude gore). But I feel that those are well used techniques to evoke the feeling of primal violence, brutality, and insanity in which the characters descend, not just fan-service ("haha, look at that ripped off arm!"). A bit like Saving Private Ryan.

Best anime ever? Ghost in the Shell. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8V9jG7Wjg)
(The movie that gave people the idea to make The Matrix.)

[Boci]

Nah, sexualizing of girls is a big thing in America (and Europe) as well. All those little girl beauty contests and bikinis for 4 year olds...

Funnily enough that's not a valid comparison to anime. Its much, much worse.

[Kitten Champion]

Regarding the sexualization of young girls in anime, that's because the age of consent in Japan is 13.

That's kind of de jure over de facto explanation. While it is thirteen, technically, once you get into local laws held nation-wide it's more around the late teens.

Sex and sexual expression in dominant Japan culture is fairly complicated. Repressive in many ways, liberal in others. There's a recognition of a need for release, but even that's muddled and ungainly. A lot more fantasy is permissible and catered to, especially into taboos and peculiar fetishes as compared to elsewhere, but how this is translated into real life is less than straightforward. Many don't have sexual relationships until their thirties, for a variety of reason. It's also a common sentiment in Japan that Westerners are more sexually active and aggressive at a much younger age, oddly enough.

It's hard to explain adequately, messy and awkward. Just don't read a direct relationship between art and life.

[MLai]

Reading this thread feels like traveling 20 years into the past. Is there still that much cultural bias against Westerners who watch anime? I thought it became mainstream-ish the same time video games did.

Anime is just a lot more omnipresent nowadays, thanks to the proliferation of media in our lives. 20-30 years ago, your sources of media consisted of TV cartoons (you're lucky if your parents bought cable), VHS tapes of cartoons, comics shops, and libraries. Anime was much harder to come by, and didn't make as much cultural in-roads. You had to "go somewhere" in order to get anime, which means you were a dedicated fan to start with, and it was a niche hobby.

Nowadays, you got streaming right into your broadband computer, into your i-phone, into your tablet, into your TiVo. You got online shops, torrent sites, hobby forums/blogs, Youtube, memes... It's just everywhere, like a lot of other things.

[Comissar]

Apologies if some of this was already said, only skimmed the thread. When I saw this thread, this (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/42903878522/modestmango-im-sorry-but-when-people-say-all) sprang to mind almost immediately. Anime/Manga isn't so much a style as it is the origin of the work.

As for specifics I'd recommend, pretty much anything by Studio Ghibli is well worth a watch, they all have a very strong story to them. In a similar vein, I'd say give Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood a go. Very strong characters with a good story to it.

[IronFist]

I am a soccer fan. In fact, I'm a member of Young Flu (google it). I regularly dress in the team's colors, I own several team items (3 official jerseys, backpack, cap, several cups, several flags) and I'm also a big fan of anime; I read several series concurrently and have around 2000 manga stored at home, I have a poster of Asuka Langley next to my door, I wear a necklace with a replica of a Core Drill whenever I can. My wife is a cosplayer, btw.

Does that make me the ultimate fanatic?

[Grinner]

Reading this thread feels like traveling 20 years into the past. Is there still that much cultural bias against Westerners who watch anime? I thought it became mainstream-ish the same time video games did.

Sorta. I think many members of the general population (particularly older ones) see it and think to themselves, "Oh. Hey. A cartoon.". That attitude and the occasional gratuitous fanservice don't mix well with the way they're intended. Yes, some are just stupid cartoons. Others aren't.

If the same scripts were used for live-action works, I think most anime would be received more positively. They'd probably also be rated R.

[Kitten Champion]

Reading this thread feels like traveling 20 years into the past. Is there still that much cultural bias against Westerners who watch anime? I thought it became mainstream-ish the same time video games did.

Anime is just a lot more omnipresent nowadays, thanks to the proliferation of media in our lives. 20-30 years ago, your sources of media consisted of TV cartoons (you're lucky if your parents bought cable), VHS tapes of cartoons, comics shops, and libraries. Anime was much harder to come by, and didn't make as much cultural in-roads. You had to "go somewhere" in order to get anime, which means you were a dedicated fan to start with, and it was a niche hobby.

Nowadays, you got streaming right into your broadband computer, into your i-phone, into your tablet, into your TiVo. You got online shops, torrent sites, hobby forums/blogs, Youtube, memes... It's just everywhere, like a lot of other things.

I spent a semester in high school being heckled for admitting to having watched Star Trek... and sadly, I'm not kidding. I remember a poor girl in my computer lab during lunch ceaselessly practising sketching based on images of anime characters taken off the net, largely bishounen. To say people were being discourteous with her is an understatement.

I didn't admit that I watched anime IRL until University. In a club specifically for the late-night screening of anime, since I couldn't torrent anything that year.

Never overestimate people's tolerance, and you'll only be pleasantly surprised.

[Avilan the Grey]

Reading this thread feels like traveling 20 years into the past. Is there still that much cultural bias against Westerners who watch anime? I thought it became mainstream-ish the same time video games did.

Anime is just a lot more omnipresent nowadays, thanks to the proliferation of media in our lives. 20-30 years ago, your sources of media consisted of TV cartoons (you're lucky if your parents bought cable), VHS tapes of cartoons, comics shops, and libraries. Anime was much harder to come by, and didn't make as much cultural in-roads. You had to "go somewhere" in order to get anime, which means you were a dedicated fan to start with, and it was a niche hobby.

Nowadays, you got streaming right into your broadband computer, into your i-phone, into your tablet, into your TiVo. You got online shops, torrent sites, hobby forums/blogs, Youtube, memes... It's just everywhere, like a lot of other things.

I have nothing against people who watch, and like Anime. I just don't like Anime. Two different things.
I also get irritated when people who do, throw out character names or names of shows as if I am a moron if I don't know what it is (not happening on this forum) .

As for omnipresent... Yes I know. It's a real hassle to find a webcomic that isn't drawn in quasi-manga style these days.

[thubby]

Apologies if some of this was already said, only skimmed the thread. When I saw this thread, this (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/page/11) sprang to mind almost immediately. Anime/Manga isn't so much a style as it is the origin of the work.


are you honestly going to tell us those don't all look distinctly different from western animation?


Reading this thread feels like traveling 20 years into the past. Is there still that much cultural bias against Westerners who watch anime? I thought it became mainstream-ish the same time video games did.

...stuff

it's easy to forget how simple it is to surround yourself with like-minded people in this day and age.

videogames, or at least AAA gaming, are still a fairly small market dominated by 16-20something males when more than half the internet population is women.

the internet is actually not helping on that front. things like forums and google's ability to learn what you want when you search can distance people from others with wildly different views.

for anime specifically. at least in the northeast the only anime on when the sun is up are toy commercials. toonami and scy-fi run a few at night but they're about it.

[Avilan the Grey]

are you honestly going to tell us those don't all look distinctly different from western animation?

...These are actually pretty close* to some Franco-belgian style art. The main differnce is not the character designs but the rest.

*And with that I mean it's still different, but not very much so.

[Boci]

That's kind of de jure over de facto explanation. While it is thirteen, technically, once you get into local laws held nation-wide it's more around the late teens.

"Its more around late teens" is not a law, but a national custom/tradition/habit. In any case its not too important, I was just providing (a small piece of) cultural context.

[Comissar]

are you honestly going to tell us those don't all look distinctly different from western animation?


*Re-reads his own post*

Don't think I said that? Some look pretty similar to certain western animations, but the point I was making was that there's not one style that distinguishes Anime/Manga. While you can look at some of those and see that they're of Japanese origin, you can't look at them all and go "Yup, those are all using a pretty similar art style".

[Yora]

Apologies if some of this was already said, only skimmed the thread. When I saw this thread, this (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/page/11) sprang to mind almost immediately. Anime/Manga isn't so much a style as it is the origin of the work.
Funny story.

"Picture books" have a long tradition in Japan that goes back a couple of centuries. However, what today is considered a "proper and modern manga" started with Tezuka Osamu. Who is not only a giant in Japan like Walt Disney in America, but actually got the whole idea for his comics by "doing something like Disney".

Exhibit A, Exhibit B.
http://caamfest.com/2013/files/2013/02/astroboy21.jpg
http://i2.listal.com/image/5359966/600full.jpg
The "mainstream" style, which you today have for example in Naturo, Pokemon, or Haruhi, is a later development. Which not all artists follow.

I say the style is about as common as the "standard" french style found in Asterix, Lucky Luke, or Spirou.
And when I look at current superhero comics from America, they also all look the same. But then you also have Calvin & Hobbes for example, which is completely different.

[Prime32]

It's also a common sentiment in Japan that Westerners are more sexually active and aggressive at a much younger age, oddly enough."Why do all American female comicbook characters have huge breasts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperpower), wear outfits that look like bodypaint, and make poses that look both pornographic and physically impossible (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/)? In stories marketed to children?"

(For that matter "Why is all American TV about doctors or forensic detectives?")

[Boci]

"Why do all American female comicbook characters have huge breasts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperpower), wear outfits that look like bodypaint, and make poses that look both pornographic and physically impossible (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/)? In stories marketed to children?"

(For that matter "Why is all American TV about doctors or forensic detectives?")

Even ignoring media, Westeners on average lose their virginity at around 16-20 depending on the country, whilst around a third of Japenese males polled at that age have no interest in sex (and I think it went up to around half for females).

[Eldan]

"Why do all American female comicbook characters have huge breasts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperpower), wear outfits that look like bodypaint, and make poses that look both pornographic and physically impossible (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/)? In stories marketed to children?"

(For that matter "Why is all American TV about doctors or forensic detectives?")

For the records: Hawkeye Initiative is some of the most hilarious tsuff I've ever seen.

[IronFist]

"Why do all American female comicbook characters have huge breasts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperpower), wear outfits that look like bodypaint, and make poses that look both pornographic and physically impossible (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/)? In stories marketed to children?"

(For that matter "Why is all American TV about doctors or forensic detectives?")

To be fair, mainstream superhero comics were only marketed to children last century. There are separate books aimed at children now.

[Avilan the Grey]

Even ignoring media, Westeners on average lose their virginity at around 16-20 depending on the country, whilst around a third of Japenese males polled at that age have no interest in sex (and I think it went up to around half for females).

Nitpick.
Average age for women in Sweden: 13,5. Men: Just under 15.
Legal age: 15.

[Aotrs Commander]

For the records: Hawkeye Initiative is some of the most hilarious tsuff I've ever seen.

I concur. That was beautiful.

[Avilan the Grey]

I agree that there is a level of oversexualization in modern comics, and although I don't mind, I mind that it is too one-sided.

But I have one nitpick about this, and that is the overuse of "porn" or "pornographic". People who throw this around for MILDLY EROTIC at most annnoy me.

Basically, for me, it goes:
Plain nude art
Mildly erotic art (venus DeMilo etc)
Erotic art
Softcore
Porn.

What we are talking about here falls in between categories 1 and 2.

Anyway, back on topic.

[Laudandus]

Anime has conventions that are about as bad as most other mediums in general. Anime has obnoxious cutesy-out-of-control girls, fanservice on underaged women, a tendency to have the worldview of a 15-year-old, and sometimes difficulty having anyone move because of budget issues. But books have trashy romance novels and a crippling inability to use visuals or sound, movies have 95% of female characters existing purely for sex appeal and as love interests, most male characters being fonts of witty lines who sometimes have action sequences, western television has a crippling inability to have endings, and don't get me started on western comics.

But anime as a medium is pretty godlike. It has no problems telling any kind of story at all for someone who can get past your initial hurdle with the visuals, and there are things it just does far better than other mediums, like very stylized people or magic in general (magic in movies always looks a little weird, while the animated style lets you integrate it pretty seamlessly). But what draws me to anime in general is mostly just a combination of the ability to create way more interesting visuals than what a live-action medium can do combined with stories that are a single whole but are longer than a movie.

[kamikasei]

It's easier to do something weird and interesting (at least visually, but then that freedom spreads to the rest of production) with drawn art than with live action. On top of that, a lot of anime is adapted from manga or novels which are even easier to experiment with, so there's a lot of opportunity for creative new ideas to find an audience and go through an iteration or two of improving production values. This leads to a generally more varied and novel body of work to draw from.

That's a lot of the reason I watch anime in preference to much live-action entertainment. Compared to Western animation, it's mostly a matter of targeting wider demographics instead of being largely aimed at kids. Comparing manga to Western comics, a lot of it is simply that comics are weird and hard to get in to; if I like a particular manga, I can simply buy the collected volumes as they come out without needing to track any other work or worry about a new author coming in and derailing the whole thing, as seems to afflict a lot of (mostly superhero) comics. And in general, a lot of anime and manga (at least the stuff I enjoy - there are big obvious exceptions, which are often among the more visible franchises) do the sadly unusual thing of telling a definite story start to finish, whereas much American stuff seems set on finding a formula and then milking it for as long as possible.

And then on top of that, of course, there's the subcultural aspect. Once you're consuming a lot of anime and manga and talking to others who do the same, there's a natural pressure to check out whatever new things are being released so you can keep up with discussions, and to look up older works that are part of the general knowledge of the groups you find yourself in.

I can say that I do not consume any anime or manga because I like "the art style" in general; as others have pointed out, most of that is just a collection of very different things with some commonalities looking samey to someone who's mostly struck by the differences from what they're used to. Of course there are things I enjoy because of their own individual look, but that's not really the same thing.

perfect blue is not family friendly at all and does deal with sexual themes but it's not for the sake of getting a rise out of the audience. I can't quite tell you why they feel so similar, but they do. i guess they're both kind of surreal?
They're both by the same director and animation studio.

When I saw this thread, this (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/page/11) sprang to mind almost immediately.
I assume you mean this post (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/42903878522/) specifically? You may want to edit your link so that it doesn't become useless once the target falls further back in the archives.

[Raimun]

There's nothing special in the genre itself, if it even is a genre but I think we all know what we are talking about:

Japanese anime. Sorry, couldn't resist.

It's just that sometimes I hear or read of a series that catches my attention. Supernatural stuff, giant robots, ninjas or whatever. I watch an episode and I happen to like what I see. Just so happens that is a japanese anime series.

Mind you, I never search anime just because I want to watch "some anime". I watch anime only if I find the premise interesting and I like the first few episodes. Just like with normal tv-series.

So, I'm not that much in to anime but I do watch it occasionally.

[thubby]

They're both by the same director and animation studio.


oh duh, satoshi kon. didn't know he was responsible for perfect blue. makes sense in retrospect.

everything he does is at least interesting. millennium actress is a personal favorite

[Comissar]

I assume you mean this post (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/42903878522/) specifically? You may want to edit your link so that it doesn't become useless once the target falls further back in the archives.

Aye, that's the one I meant, couldn't figure out how to get the post specific link. Help is appreciated :smallsmile:

[NNescio]

"Its more around late teens" is not a law, but a national custom/tradition/habit. In any case its not too important, I was just providing (a small piece of) cultural context.

Kitten Champion was referring to prefectural/municipal laws. While the national age of consent is indeed 13 (c.f. Japanese Penal Code; Articles 176~177), nearly all prefectures/municipalities (if not all) have legislation that effectively jack up the age of consent to ages similar to what is found in other countries　(c.f. Tokyo Metropolitan Indecency Act; Article 18:2)

Furthermore, the Japanese also has a Child Welfare Act which can be interpreted as setting the age of consent to be 18 (c.f. Child Welfare Law; Article 34).

TL;DR: The federal age of consent in Japan is 13. The 'state' age of consent in Japan varies, but is "more around late teens". 'State' law overrides federal law in this case.

Note that I'm just nitpicking. Your point still stands. Especially since most of the punishments prescribed in the above laws are very light anyway.

(Also Disclaimer: IANAL, and the above is not legal advice. I'm just citing text to support my points.)

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Regarding the sexualization of young girls in anime, that's because the age of consent in Japan is 13.
I suspected as much.


Nah, sexualizing of girls is a big thing in America (and Europe) as well. All those little girl beauty contests and bikinis for 4 year olds...
I'm glad I don't watch reality TV.

[Terraoblivion]

An important point to remember about sexualization is that it's by no means universal in anime and manga. In fact, I've found it easier to avoid sexualization in anime and manga than in American entertainment, especially for the last five or so years. A lot of big name works, especially in shounen, are quite bad about it and works that skirt the line between being heavily sexualized and outright softcore porn are hardly rare, but they're easy to spot and avoid. On the other hand there are also plenty of works such as Maria-sama ga Miteru, Red Data Girl, K-On, Bodacious Space Pirates and Attack on Titan to name a few that does essentially nothing to sexualize characters male or female. The latter is particularly interesting, given how it's a shounen fighting series, which is a genre that tends to involve large amounts of sexualization of female characters.

[Tengu_temp]

Note that because Tokyo released an anti-perversion act one or two years ago, anime started to become very polarized these days: most new series either have little to no fanservice, or they go all-out with fanservice.


The only anime I've ever really gotten into is Paprika (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851578/). I much of the reason I liked it was the labyrinthine plot, and the fact that none of the characters were hypersexualized in unsettling ways.

What are some other animes with similar themes and imagery?

Other than stuff that was mentioned here already, you'd probably enjoy Mushi-shi.

[Terraoblivion]

The only anime I've ever really gotten into is Paprika (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851578/). I much of the reason I liked it was the labyrinthine plot, and the fact that none of the characters were hypersexualized in unsettling ways.

What are some other animes with similar themes and imagery?

If you want labyrinthine plots and complex thematics you can't really go wrong with Revolutionary Girl Utena. However, whether it runs into your problem with sexualization depends on what those problems are since the show is all about sex on a thematic level. There is very little nudity, very few shots drawing attention to secondary sexual characteristics and similar and no interest in titillation in general. It's just that sex is the central theme discussed by the show.

[Yora]

I think the main appeal of manga and anime probably comes from the fact that Japanese writers dare to go in different direction than the mainstream american entertainment we all get spoon fed all over the world.
There isn't that much fiction from Eastern Europe or Scandinavia, but I often discover some really great gems from there as well.

People just don't want a repeat of the same stories over and over, which get all their edges worn down with each repetition. Japan has entirely new stories and produces a huge amount of them, which these days is readily available in Europe and America.

[Mando Knight]

However, what today is considered a "proper and modern manga" started with Tezuka Osamu. Who is not only a giant in Japan like Walt Disney in America, but actually got the whole idea for his comics by "doing something like Disney".

Exhibit A, Exhibit B.
http://caamfest.com/2013/files/2013/02/astroboy21.jpg
http://i2.listal.com/image/5359966/600full.jpg
Note that Exhibit B is an example of "What goes around, comes around." Kimba the White Lion predates The Lion King by some 40 years.

[snoopy13a]

(For that matter "Why is all American TV about doctors or forensic detectives?")

Americans like "life-or-death" drama. So detective shows and hospital shows fit the bill. It's also no surprise that shows with criminals as protagonists (Breaking Bad, Dexter, The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy, The Wire) have also rose in popularity (again the life-or-death drama aspect). Even most of the shows that don't have fit in these three keep the life-or-death aspect (e.g., Game of Thrones, True Blood). Perhaps the only hit drama I can think of that doesn't fit the "life-or-death" drama is Mad Men.

The networks try to introduce legal dramas now-and-then but these don't have the success rate of the medical and cop shows. American TV also has comedies and "dramedies" which don't fall within the cop or hospital stereotypes, but can be set in these settings, see Scrubs for example.

As for anime, I think it is still only a niche medium in America because animation has the reputation of either being targeted for children (e.g., Disney) or having sophomoric or satirical humor (South Park, Simpsons, Family Guy). The mainstream simply does not see animation as a vehicle for serious drama.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

If you want labyrinthine plots and complex thematics you can't really go wrong with Revolutionary Girl Utena. However, whether it runs into your problem with sexualization depends on what those problems are since the show is all about sex on a thematic level. There is very little nudity, very few shots drawing attention to secondary sexual characteristics and similar and no interest in titillation in general. It's just that sex is the central theme discussed by the show.

I'm not against sex as a theme. What I take issue with is the obvious sexualization of underage girls. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[thorgrim29]

I dunno, I watch some anime because the story is interesting or because it's so awesomely over the top. Like Hellsing (Dracula fights Nazi vampires and Vatican hit men for the glory of the Queen of England), or Black Lagoon (Tarantino meets John Woo). But you can also get more simple stories, focused on character development. The best example for that that I've recently discovered is Spice and Wolf, a travelling merchant in Renaissance times escorts a pagan wolf goddess in human form across the land because since the people of her village don't need her (of believe she exists) she wants to go home. Outside of the first episode there's no fanservice, the story isn't too over the top, and most of the drama comes from market crashes or Fool's Gold bubbles.

[Somewhere]

Regarding the general difference in feel one may have between Japanese and Western animation: Some words (http://www.pelleas.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1643#p1643) by Peter Chung, along with general insight into Japanese animation theory and work structure.

[Yora]

I'm not against sex as a theme. What I take issue with is the obvious sexualization of underage girls. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Then pick your shows accordingly. There is a wide range of works with a couple of bad apples.

I dunno, I watch some anime because the story is interesting or because it's so awesomely over the top.
That's one thing I like about some anime. Compared to western creators, there is at least a considerable amount of Japanese writers who have no shame at all in running with ideas that everyone would call just stupid and nonsensical. There is a lot more courage to simply ignore any genre convention and just do something because you think it's totally awsome and hilarious.

Now Metal Gear Solid may be a video game series (that decided to go with a naturalistic style when graphics made that possible), but when it comes to the writing it's right up there with many of the most outragous and hilariously overblown animies. And it's awesome!

To compare a western example, take stuff like Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory or Alice in Wonderland. They exist, but they are rare. In Japan, you'll find a lot more stories like that.

[TheThan]

I don’t watch as much anime as I used to. But the basic reason why I like anime is that they produce some terrific stories.

Anime is a medium, just like books, movies and radio. It’s basically no different than western animation, aside from it not being associated as strongly as “just for kids” (at least here in the west). Now because it’s just a medium, creators can cross genres. With anime, you can find quality shows in any genre you can imagine, whether its science fiction, fantasy, slice of life, westerns, children’s programming, action/adventure, even pornography, you name it and it exists.

I haven’t gotten into manga at all. But since a lot of anime is derived from manga, you can pretty much assume the same applies to it. now the thing about manga, is that it’s to Japan what comic books are to the west.

@ at everyone talking about neon Genesis Evangelion
That show it supposed to be unsettling. So yeah, if it unsettles you, then it’s doing it’s job.

[The Rose Dragon]

@ at everyone talking about neon Genesis Evangelion
That show it supposed to be unsettling. So yeah, if it unsettles you, then it’s doing it’s job.

And a trepanner is supposed to open a hole in my skull, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or subject myself to a trepanner.

[Terraoblivion]

Also, another aspect of manga that's definitely shared by most of the medium and makes it distinct from both European and American comic traditions that I thought about. It's much, much slower paced. A two volume manga that's 300-400 pages long is considered pretty short, despite being much longer than your average trade paperback or bande desinee album, for example. But going beyond mere length, manga tends to dwell a lot more on establishing shots, pictures of changing facial expressions or conversations that only serve to develop character or establish the default of a relationship rather than directly progressing the plot. It's quite different from the very plot-oriented and fast progression found in western comics. Scott McCloud has some interesting comments on this in Understanding Comics. Together with the far less episodic structure manga usually adopts it makes for a very different reading experience than that of other comics.

[Yora]

Evangelion seems to me like Elfen Lied (not the anime, that's actually bad), in that is has a superficial action layer and several lower layers attempting to tell a story about emotional and psychological issues. The action layer is supposed to be a tool supporting the deeper layers. And I think it's easy to assume they are action stories and then just look at the action layer, and in that case they compare rather badly to other "straight" action series.
And I think the creators take a considerable part of the blame for this, as they probably attempted to make the action parts appealing to people who are looking only for the action. They still create sales.

And you always have vocal crazy fans who say the evil evil villain mass murder rapist is really a sweet guy and just misunderstood. And while that is usually an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect, Evangelion and Elfen Lied are really just asking for it. I think the creators were totally okay with that happening.

[Eldan]

Wait, who would this mass murder villain be in the case of Evangelion? Gendo? Nerve? Soul? The Angels?

[Terraoblivion]

Presumably Gendo. Though I'm sure there are some people who get hot and bothered thinking about SEELE banging too.

[Tengu_temp]

Evangelion seems to me like Elfen Lied (not the anime, that's actually bad)

Amusing comparison, considering that I saw Elfen Lied before Eva, and after watching Evangelion I realized how much the former steals from the latter.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I see. What is the term for the art style I'm thinking of?


I think what I man by art style is big eyes, tiny noses, hard lines, ridiculous hair, and unsettlingly drawn female characters.

Animation is a term to described cartoons as a whole, whither Eastern or Western in origin. Japanimation is the term used to describe animated shows/movies/etc. that originate from the east, but over time that distinction fell away to just 'anime' in America and so on because we think of them as just 'cartoons' rather then anime. If you watch cartoons, you watch anime as the actual terms go, without including the artificial distinction between 'anime' and 'cartoons'.

And the art style you're referring to does not extend to all of anime or manga, though it is a prevalent one.

As for the popularity...see everyone else's 'anime has a wide selection of more mature stories and (depending on the anime) be meant for teenagers, adults, etc. rather then just being aimed at children for the most part because of the stigma in America and some other places that animation is meant for children and cannot tell a serious story, a stigma that is only recently being overcome in the west'.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Also, another aspect of manga that's definitely shared by most of the medium and makes it distinct from both European and American comic traditions that I thought about. It's much, much slower paced. A two volume manga that's 300-400 pages long is considered pretty short, despite being much longer than your average trade paperback or bande desinee album, for example. But going beyond mere length, manga tends to dwell a lot more on establishing shots, pictures of changing facial expressions or conversations that only serve to develop character or establish the default of a relationship rather than directly progressing the plot. It's quite different from the very plot-oriented and fast progression found in western comics. Scott McCloud has some interesting comments on this in Understanding Comics. Together with the far less episodic structure manga usually adopts it makes for a very different reading experience than that of other comics.

Some manga(s)* do feel quite episodic, specially Shonen ones, due the weekly releases however when one reads them back to back it all meshes really well; just something that strikes me as interesting


Evangelion seems to me like Elfen Lied (not the anime, that's actually bad), in that is has a superficial action layer and several lower layers attempting to tell a story about emotional and psychological issues. The action layer is supposed to be a tool supporting the deeper layers. And I think it's easy to assume they are action stories and then just look at the action layer, and in that case they compare rather badly to other "straight" action series.
And I think the creators take a considerable part of the blame for this, as they probably attempted to make the action parts appealing to people who are looking only for the action. They still create sales.

And you always have vocal crazy fans who say the evil evil villain mass murder rapist is really a sweet guy and just misunderstood. And while that is usually an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect, Evangelion and Elfen Lied are really just asking for it. I think the creators were totally okay with that happening.

I think Evangelion's creator had a psychotic break (something to do with depression?) or something like mid-way through the series and that is when things started to become even more mind-screwing. Don't quote me on that though I only half remember the details and can't remember where or who told me that.


*How do you pluralize it manga or mangas? (incidentally I really confused my mom the first time I asked for one, in Spanish manga also means sleeve)

[Somewhere]

Another aspect of manga as an industry is that it is primarily (I personally think most, if not all, but let's go with primarily to be safe..) serialized in magazines first, and then collected into volumes for sale later. Usually manga anthology magazines, but there is a fair amount of manga serialized in other kinds of mags.
So there is this effect in giving people an opportunity to read a series by being in a magazine that a person bought primarily for some other thing.
For the international fans, most of us aren't buying the magazines. So we develop awareness of new series through word of mouth. Some popular magazines have followings which track new series (for example, Weekly Shounen Jump, the biggest manga mag in Japan), so from there, that's a base level of exposure to start with. Which is why it's possible for international manga readers to be able to have heard of something like Nisekoi, for example, despite it being incredibly conventional and not particularly stand out on its own. If it was in some random 5 to low 6 digit circulation magazine that never ran a notable series, it very well could never be noticed by English speakers.
(the manga industry publishes an average of ~1000 volumes a month, so there's a lot that just passes by without getting noticed outside of Japan)

Also, different magazines have different levels of internal pressure. An extreme example would be Weekly Shounen Jump, again. Series getting axed within 10-16 issues is a very common event in that mag's history. That type of pressure has noticable effects on storytelling... plus the nature of the beast impacts the viability of planning ahead in detail. Other magazines tend to be far more lenient. (although, some do attribute WSJ's success to its cutthroat nature...)

As I understand it, comics in the US are published stand-alone and that nowadays there aren't really any major anthology publications. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, though. And I'm not familiar with European comics.
Along those lines, I'm curious; how do people become aware of new series in US comics, as well as European?

---

Japanese doesn't have singular/plural form, so 'manga' is both comic and comics, from their perspective. Naturally, that can be ambiguous. In English conversation, I don't think that people care whether 'manga' or 'mangas' is used?

[Terraoblivion]

The plural is manga. Japanese doesn't really have a strict singular/plural distinction.

Also, yes, episodic manga exists, but it's less common than comic strips or longer, continuing stories.

[Zaydos]

Yeah I can't add much more except that they have a variety of stories and that for me they filled the void that the crash in super hero cartoons after the 90s left.


*How do you pluralize it manga or mangas? (incidentally I really confused my mom the first time I asked for one, in Spanish manga also means sleeve)

Manga; it's a Japanese word and they don't really pluralize things. I know people who will get upset about this (I also know people who were taking 3rd year Japanese in Japan and still would get this wrong).

[Mx.Silver]

An important point to remember about sexualization is that it's by no means universal in anime and manga. In fact, I've found it easier to avoid sexualization in anime and manga than in American entertainment, especially for the last five or so years. A lot of big name works, especially in shounen, are quite bad about it and works that skirt the line between being heavily sexualized and outright softcore porn are hardly rare, but they're easy to spot and avoid. On the other hand there are also plenty of works such as Maria-sama ga Miteru, Red Data Girl, K-On, Bodacious Space Pirates and Attack on Titan to name a few that does essentially nothing to sexualize characters male or female. The latter is particularly interesting, given how it's a shounen fighting series, which is a genre that tends to involve large amounts of sexualization of female characters.
Bodacious Space Pirates' lack of sexualisation is particularly notable/commendable given that it's the kind of premise you wouldn't be surprised to strapped to the fanservice train and driven straight through a wall. The 'beach episode' can almost be seen as a joke based around that exact expectation.


As an addendum to the sexualisation point, it is also true that there isn't a shortage of fanservice which focusses on male characters. Meaning the medium does at least allow for more 'equal opportunity ogling' than some other 'geek' media.




Amusing comparison, considering that I saw Elfen Lied before Eva, and after watching Evangelion I realized how much the former steals from the latter.
Disclaimer: I'm one of (what I suspect is) the minority on this forum who like Elfen Lied the anime (haven't read the manga, so can't comment on it*). In the interests of not de-railing the thread, I'm trying to avoid pressing that subject (not least because most opinions on Lied come down to an 'on-balance' judgement, and that decision is usually too subjective to really be worth arguing over).

I'm not really sure I see much actual theft, to be honest. Both have similar elements, but they're using them to explore different things. While both use psychological trauma, for example, Eva is more concerned with how people deal with the pain, while Lied uses it in the context of the nature of evil.
Having said that, I'd agree that Lied wouldn't have gotten made if Eva hadn't already existed.




*I've never really gotten into manga much in general, to be honest. Mostly as a result of various external factors, rather than any antipathy towards it.

[NNescio]

I always thought of Evangelion as a deconstruction of the mecha genre. I mean, what do you expect when you turn a fourteen-old boy whose father abandoned him into a child soldier and put him behind the controls of an experimental weapon (a common plot in mecha series)? You don't get a hero. You get a really messed up person with psychological issues.

The other characters are also deconstructions of various anime character archetypes.

[Aotrs Commander]

I thought Evangelion started off well and then dived headlong into being one of the biggest piles of pretentious, nonsensical crap I have ever had the misfortune to ever witness and only is saved from being the worst anime I ever watched by the fact that I have accidently and naively watched Violence Jack and Legend of the Overfiend when anime was a newish thing showed on Channel 4 late at night and I didn't know any better. Unfortunately.

Actually, you know what, even thinking about Violence Jack makes me almost sorry I called Evangelion pretentious crap, because I'd rather watch the latter than the former. I mean, I'd rather regrow my eyeballs and then pull them out with a rusty spoon than watch either, but the point remains...

For those who aren't familar with Violence Jack - good. Do yourself a favour and keep it that way.

[Tavar]

I always thought of Evangelion as a deconstruction of the mecha genre. I mean, what do you expect when you turn a fourteen-old boy whose father abandoned him into a child soldier and put him behind the controls of an experimental weapon (a common plot in mecha series)? You don't get a hero. You get a really messed up person with psychological issues.

The other characters are also deconstructions of various anime character archetypes.

I'm pretty sure this is readily acknowledged, especially by those familiar with the show/it's history. I think I've even seen a break down of specific shows it was directed at, but it's been a while.

The Director did have a bit of a breakdown during it's creation, though, and he certainly has had a bit of a backlash against some things from Fans(for example, he specifically designed Rei to be creepy and off-putting. Opps).

[TheThan]

I always thought of Evangelion as a deconstruction of the mecha genre. I mean, what do you expect when you turn a fourteen-old boy whose father abandoned him into a child soldier and put him behind the controls of an experimental weapon (a common plot in mecha series)? You don't get a hero. You get a really messed up person with psychological issues.

The other characters are also deconstructions of various anime character archetypes.

I thought Evangelion started off well and then dived headlong into being one of the biggest piles of pretentious, nonsensical crap I have ever had the misfortune to ever witness and only is saved from being the worst anime I ever watched by the fact that I have accidently and naively watched Violence Jack and Legend of the Overfiend when anime was a newish thing showed on Channel 4 late at night and I didn't know any better. Unfortunately.

Actually, you know what, even thinking about Violence Jack makes me almost sorry I called Evangelion pretentious crap, because I'd rather watch the latter than the former. I mean, I'd rather regrow my eyeballs and then pull them out with a rusty spoon than watch either, but the point remains...


OH Neon Genesis Evangelion is both a deconstruction of the giant mecha genre and a steaming pile of pretentious BS. Which is why it’s so unsettling to watch.

[thubby]

i dont know. if you set aside the ending it's really solid. a lot of the stuff people hate comes from the last few episodes when the whole production nearly went belly up. and also the creator had a meltdown

that's what i was hoping rebuild was going to "fix" but apparently not. :smallannoyed:

[Tengu_temp]

Evangelion is a deconstruction, and a huge pile of pretentious ****, and nowhere near as deep as its fanboys claim... And yet it's still a pretty great show that's a must-watch for any anime fan if you ask me. Because even if you won't like it, at least you will see an extremely influential series.

The ending to the show is pretty aggravating on the first view, but it's one of those weird things that makes more sense and gets better the more you watch it (not recommended) and the more you think about it (very much recommended). Also, I'm in the camp that claims End of Evangelion and the TV ending are two sides of the same coin and can be composed together into a single ending.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Also, another aspect of manga that's definitely shared by most of the medium and makes it distinct from both European and American comic traditions that I thought about. It's much, much slower paced. A two volume manga that's 300-400 pages long is considered pretty short, despite being much longer than your average trade paperback or bande desinee album, for example. But going beyond mere length, manga tends to dwell a lot more on establishing shots, pictures of changing facial expressions or conversations that only serve to develop character or establish the default of a relationship rather than directly progressing the plot. It's quite different from the very plot-oriented and fast progression found in western comics. Scott McCloud has some interesting comments on this in Understanding Comics. Together with the far less episodic structure manga usually adopts it makes for a very different reading experience than that of other comics.
Interesting observation. I think Scott McCloud's comments are actually in Making Comics, but I could be wrong.

[Knaight]

And here's the other strange fact that I've noticed, every one of these folks are the awkward outcasts. During club day at my college I passed by the anime club table and EVERY one of them were those I normally saw eating by themselves.

There's a pretty major sampling bias here - you're only going to pick up the people who are, for lack of a better word, devoted to anime with this method. The level of interaction needed to pick up on the fact that the people who actively participate in anime club or routinely have discussions about anime in general are into anime is much lower than the level of interaction needed to notice interest in those who aren't completely devoted. As such, one is only likely to know one or a few of those, among a group more closely associated with anyways, and they are easily dismissed as exceptions.

To come back to the sports team analogy - If I'm walking down a street, I will pass by a number of sports fans. Most of them won't be identifiable. On the other hand, the person in full body paint throwing a Molotov cocktail at a car because their team won a game is clearly a sports fan. Picking up on that isn't exactly a great feat of observation. As such, it would be entirely possible to conclude from casual observation that sports fans are a bunch of obsessed hooligans that really don't fit in with society - or, at least, it would if they weren't common enough for there to be a sufficiently large list of "normal" people who I know like sports. Moreover, because of network effects of conversational interests this information comes out faster, as there are enough sports fans that any given one can safely assume that it is a common topic for chat and bring it out quickly, where a more niche interest wouldn't share this.

To use myself as an example - I post on this forum. Clearly, I am some kind of nerd. Yet casual acquaintances don't necessarily pick up on this, as I'm not nearly invested enough in nerdy stuff to have obvious signifier traits (e.g. clothing). The casual acquaintances who do know likely know me through some sort of subculture where it's more normal (see: science courses at college), and as such it gets drawn into conversation as a safe topic earlier.

[Drascin]

And when I look at current superhero comics from America, they also all look the same. But then you also have Calvin & Hobbes for example, which is completely different.

Well, a thing to keep in mind is that the two big superhero comic companies actually do have what they call a "house style". It's theorethically used to try to keep a feel of continuity in the "big" works where artists tend to rotate and it'd be jarring if the style changed completely. A lot of times it's mostly used to justify laziness, mind, but that's like with everything, theory and practice rarely match except when you're doing engineering :smalltongue:. But yes, the superhero comics mostly do look extremely samey - and it's even by design, so nobody can really refute that fact.

You do get different art styles in less "primary" runs, so to speak, though. The recent Hawkeye run, for example, has a neat paper-ish style, and the "aimed at younger people" collections like Giruhiru's run of Power Pack or Captain Marvel's The Monster Society of Evil have a definitely more cartoony look (that in my opinion honestly fits the subject matter a hell of a lot more than the general "dull surprise" you get when most artists are forced to do a house style they don't really like).

[Clertar]

If I were you I'd try to watch more "mature" anime like Monster, Cowboy Bebop, Yawara!, Conan the Future Boy... It can be very different from the "anime for teenage boys" (shounen) that's so popular in the West and that you seem to be talking about.

[MLai]

The Director did have a bit of a breakdown during it's creation, though, and he certainly has had a bit of a backlash against some things from Fans(for example, he specifically designed Rei to be creepy and off-putting. Opps).
LMAO, really? He was naive enough not to know that he hit a ravenous niche with that comely mannequin of a character?

To come back to the sports team analogy - If I'm walking down a street, I will pass by a number of sports fans. Most of them won't be identifiable. On the other hand, the person in full body paint throwing a Molotov cocktail at a car because their team won a game is clearly a sports fan.
So what's he gonna do if his team lost? :smallbiggrin:

[Mx.Silver]

If I were you I'd try to watch more "mature" anime like Monster, Cowboy Bebop, Yawara!, Conan the Future Boy... It can be very different from the "anime for teenage boys" (shounen) that's so popular in the West and that you seem to be talking about.

To be honest, there's plenty of good stuff around that's technically Shounen as well. It is, after all, a demographic rather than a genre.
General rule with Shonen is that if it has more than about 50 episodes in total (or looks like it will if it's still going) skip it. Actually you could probably apply that to all the demographics now that I think about it.




So what's he gonna do if his team lost? :smallbiggrin:
Lose a fight with the winning team's supporters. And possibly try to assassinate the referee.

[Tavar]

LMAO, really? He was naive enough not to know that he hit a ravenous niche with that comely mannequin of a character?

I think the main this was that he wasn't expecting it to be such a large niche.

[thubby]

I'm pretty sure this is readily acknowledged, especially by those familiar with the show/it's history. I think I've even seen a break down of specific shows it was directed at, but it's been a while.

The Director did have a bit of a breakdown during it's creation, though, and he certainly has had a bit of a backlash against some things from Fans(for example, he specifically designed Rei to be creepy and off-putting. Opps).

following the series finale, he was sent death threats which he subsequently included in the mind **** part of "end of evangelion"

evangelion's creator is not a happy man. in interviews and articles he is overtly hostile toward fans. he also decries anything read into his work as nonsense and describes the whole series as "pointless"

[Kitten Champion]

LMAO, really? He was naive enough not to know that he hit a ravenous niche with that comely mannequin of a character?



Yeah, he knew, I think - it's sort of what he's parodying.

She's a satire of the compliant and passive female that's a recurrent fetish among Otaku... and wider Japanese culture to an extent. Those traits distilled into one character and turned up to eleven to make them obviously disturbing.

That she just became more fetish fodder to many is both expected and ironic.

[Knaight]

So what's he gonna do if his team lost? :smallbiggrin:

Probably go peaceably get drunk while being really sad. Sports riots are more of a victory celebration thing.*

*This doesn't make sense to me either.