UMD for non-scrolls/wands?

[Deaxsa]

if i were trying to UMD the sparring dummy of the master, what would the DC be? (i'm making a scout).

[holywhippet]

if i were trying to UMD the sparring dummy of the master, what would the DC be? (i'm making a scout).

Hmm, I'm not 100% certain UMD can be used like that since it is used to emulate a class feature, not emulate a class per se. Assuming it is allowed, the DC is 21 since your effective level is your UMD check minus 20 and you'd need at least 1 level of monk to use the item.

However, the monk class has an alignment restriction of lawful. If your character isn't lawful they'd need to make a DC 30 UMD check to emulate that alignment.

[Maginomicon]

However, the monk class has an alignment restriction of lawful. If your character isn't lawful they'd need to make a DC 30 UMD check to emulate that alignment.
There are also Chaos Monks (Dragon Magazine #335 page 89) that require a chaotic alignment. They're actually pretty awesome and funny conceptually.

[Deaxsa]

okay, but to succeed on a UMD check, i'd need to beat the DC of 0, however, i take penalties depending on what i am doing?

[holywhippet]

Well, what alignment is your planned character? If you are trying to emulate being a monk via UMD, and you aren't lawful, you need to act lawful for the duration of the training with the dummy. Otherwise you need to make a DC 30 UMD check. Then again, you might need to make one each day since the training goes on for a while.

I'd check with your DM as to whether they are going to allow this. As far as I can tell you can't use UMD in this manner. It might be easier just to take a level of monk or some monk variant.

[Chronos]

Agreed that you'd need to "Emulate a Class Feature" for a 1st-level monk, and also "Emulate Alignment" if you're not lawful. It's not just one check, though, or even just one check per day: From the skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm),

If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
It takes, what, a week? Two weeks? to use a Sparring Dummy of the Master. And you need to make that check every hour during that time. You'll want to make darned sure that you pass that check even on a 1, because you will roll a 1 in that time.

Also note that Scouts don't have UMD as a class skill. So you'd need to cross-class for that.

All told, it might be easiest just to take the one monk level and be done with it.

[holywhippet]

After thinking about it I'm a bit confused. Exactly what magical item requires you to emulate a class feature? I can't think of any items off of the top of my head that require a specific class feature rather than a specific class. Well, there is the nightstick but I don't know if you could turn undead using it when you aren't a cleric.

[nedz]

After thinking about it I'm a bit confused. Exactly what magical item requires you to emulate a class feature? I can't think of any items off of the top of my head that require a specific class feature rather than a specific class. Well, there is the nightstick but I don't know if you could turn undead using it when you aren't a cleric.

Armour, Shields, certain Weapons. Arguably these are proficiencies though.

Monk's belt — for the full effect. This is debatable though.

Incense of Meditation — Emulate divine casting.

Book of Infinite Spells — Avoid negative level and reduce the chance of the page turning.

Philosopher’s Stone — Emulate Arcane caster to turn Base metal into Gold.

Talisman of Pure Good/Talisman of Ultimate Evil — Emulate a Divine Caster

[ArcturusV]

I seem to recall there was some musical instruments that had something like "If you have bardic music you may use this to use a free (Bardic Music here) ability with a (slight bonus here)". So that would be an emulated class feature.

Now, as near as I can remember and my own reading of it. You can't emulate the class feature of "A ____ class". It's not a class feature, it's a level. This means that, (As I found out one time) that you cannot UMD a Holy Avenger weapon, no matter what. You gotta be a Paladin or it's just a +2 Cold Iron weapon. If the sparring dummy is worded similarly, it would also follow I'd think. You can't emulate it with UMD, you'd have to bite the bullet and take a level.

[Curmudgeon]

If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
You need to have or emulate as many class features as your DM requires to satisfactorily establish yourself as a level 1 Monk. So that could include all of the following:

Fortitude save of at least +2
Reflex save of at least +2
Will save of at least +2
Flurry of Blows
Improved Unarmed Strike
Unarmed damage of at least 1d6 (if Medium size)
WIS bonus to AC
any level 1 Monk bonus feat
d8 hit die
Lawful alignment
Repeat all of the above checks, without failure, 224 consecutive times.

[Chronos]

I'm going to disagree with that, Curmudgeon. If someone managed to take an eclectic Zinc Saucier-style pile of classes and prestige classes that got all of those class features, they still wouldn't be a monk, and wouldn't be able to use a Sparring Dummy naturally. Rather, I would argue that emulating those class features would do you no good, and that instead, the class feature you need to emulate is "Able to use a Sparring Dummy of the Master". No, this class feature is not listed under the Monk class, but it's implicitly there, by virtue of the fact that the Sparring Dummy of the Master can be used by a monk.

[Curmudgeon]

Rather, I would argue that emulating those class features would do you no good, and that instead, the class feature you need to emulate is "Able to use a Sparring Dummy of the Master". No, this class feature is not listed under the Monk class, but it's implicitly there
"Implicit" = not in the rules. I'm really only interested in what's in the RAW, and how to work with that. You're free to use that house rule in your own games, of course.

[ArcturusV]

I don't even think you can rightly argue implicit there. Because if you do... you're arguing that class levels are a class feature. "Is a ____ level ____" being a feature could probably lead to all sorts of weird, wonky loopholes if you go too far down that rabbit's hole. It'd be the sort of madness that would probably be up there with silly kobold shenanigans.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Well, isn’t “being a ____” the most basic and explicit class feature? Every monk is a monk, without exception, and she is so by virtue of belonging to the monk class.

It seems to me that "being a ___” is a class feature as per the RAW rules of UMD and so is open to emulation just like any more specific class feature.

Edit: Note that this does not mean that you can, by using UMD, do anything that the class can do – that is explicitly ruled out by the UMD description.

[Chronos]

"Implicit" = not in the rules.
So, you're saying it's not in the rules that only a monk can use a Sparring Dummy of the Master?

The monk, by virtue of her class, has an ability that most classes lack (namely, the ability to use a SDotM). That ability is therefore a class feature.

[Deaxsa]

Agreed that you'd need to "Emulate a Class Feature" for a 1st-level monk, and also "Emulate Alignment" if you're not lawful. It's not just one check, though, or even just one check per day: From the skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm),

It takes, what, a week? Two weeks? to use a Sparring Dummy of the Master. And you need to make that check every hour during that time. You'll want to make darned sure that you pass that check even on a 1, because you will roll a 1 in that time.

Also note that Scouts don't have UMD as a class skill. So you'd need to cross-class for that.

All told, it might be easiest just to take the one monk level and be done with it.

this is more of a theoretical exercise than it is a real world example. so if we forget about the scout for a minute, and just try to establish how one would go about setting up the check(s), then that would probably be best. (short of "the scout found a non-monk only version of the item and used that")

[Deaxsa]

I don't even think you can rightly argue implicit there. Because if you do... you're arguing that class levels are a class feature. "Is a ____ level ____" being a feature could probably lead to all sorts of weird, wonky loopholes if you go too far down that rabbit's hole. It'd be the sort of madness that would probably be up there with silly kobold shenanigans.

what's next? UMDing skill ranks?

[Curmudgeon]

The monk, by virtue of her class, has an ability that most classes lack (namely, the ability to use a SDotM). That ability is therefore a class feature.
No, it's not a class feature; it's an item feature. It's in the "Magic Items" section of Arms and Equipment Guide.
Chapter 5: Magic Items
Here are some new magic items to add to those described in Chapter 8 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide.

[Deaxsa]

You need to have or emulate as many class features as your DM requires to satisfactorily establish yourself as a level 1 Monk. So that could include all of the following:

Fortitude save of at least +2
Reflex save of at least +2
Will save of at least +2
Flurry of Blows
Improved Unarmed Strike
Unarmed damage of at least 1d6 (if Medium size)
WIS bonus to AC
any level 1 Monk bonus feat
d8 hit die
Lawful alignment
Repeat all of the above checks, without failure, 224 consecutive times.

well, at the point at which you need to make the check 224 times, you're simply going to need to succeed on a 1. the question is.. what is the DC? 21? 21-20=level 1 monk, and then 30 if you are not lawful (if the only monks in the campaign are lawful). soo.. a +20 would do it, and let you use the item every time? (if you are lawful, +29 otherwise)

[nedz]

well, at the point at which you need to make the check 224 times, you're simply going to need to succeed on a 1. the question is.. what is the DC? 21? 21-20=level 1 monk, and then 30 if you are not lawful (if the only monks in the campaign are lawful). soo.. a +20 would do it, and let you use the item every time? (if you are lawful, +29 otherwise)

Warlock 4, or anyone with Skill Mastery UMD, laughs at this problem; provided they have enough Ranks to succeed on a '10'.

[Deaxsa]

Warlock 4, or anyone with Skill Mastery UMD, laughs at this problem; provided they have enough Ranks to succeed on a '10'.

the goal here is to not have to take class levels.. i mean, if you were a scout, wouldn't you rather take 1 level of monk, rather than FOUR levels of warlock AND pump UMD? (i mean, give me a break. i'm surprised you didn't tell me that wizards don't have this problem :smallannoyed:)

[Chronos]

You can't take Skill Mastery in UMD. Or rather, you can, but it doesn't do any good. Skill mastery just lets you take 10 in stressful situations as if they were non-stressful, but you can't take 10 on UMD in non-stressful situations, either.

[Deaxsa]

You can't take Skill Mastery in UMD. Or rather, you can, but it doesn't do any good. Skill mastery just lets you take 10 in stressful situations as if they were non-stressful, but you can't take 10 on UMD in non-stressful situations, either.

HAH! almost, but not quite.


When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened.

The key word here is "even": implying that it's possible to take 10.. at least as a warlock. at least, that's what i get out of it. or the warlock could just have his fiends attack him, or ask him 20 questions, or call his wife over or something, so that he IS being threatened.

[nedz]

the goal here is to not have to take class levels.. i mean, if you were a scout, wouldn't you rather take 1 level of monk, rather than FOUR levels of warlock AND pump UMD? (i mean, give me a break. i'm surprised you didn't tell me that wizards don't have this problem :smallannoyed:)

Sorry, I was actually angling at Skill Mastery and used Warlock 4 as an example. Wizards would have a problem with this actually, it's just that they probably don't need to bother.