Sword & Dagger

[SirAxealot]

I made a thread about a sword and board fighter, only to find someone else in our group had claimed the defender role. Fair enough.

So now I'm looking to make something different from what I usually play, which is heavily armored fighters with big two-handed weapons. I want to make a character that uses a rapier (or longsword) and dagger or some similar combination.

Options that I have looked at so far - Tempest fighter, Rogue, Assassin.

I want to be relatively lightly armored (nothing more than leather) and to play as a Vryloka or Revenant for fluff reasons.

What recommendations do you have? Is Rogue with some Tempest Fighter mixed in possible? Assassin seems a little farther from what I have in mind. I'm thinking more expert duelist than sneaky git.

[tcrudisi]

Barbarian and Ranger are the other two that immediately spring to mind.

If the defender role is locked up, you probably want to go striker. Ranger would be a fine choice ... but god, out of all the 4e classes, Ranger is the only one I refuse to play. It's so, so, so, so boring to me. Does it do the most damage? Yep. And it's so mindlessly boring to play.

Rogue would be okay, but you wouldn't get to use the off-hand that much.

Whirling Barbarian? Maybe, but they typically prefer to use something like 2 axes.

I will say this: Sword + Dagger is a tough combination. If you are okay doing something like, "two 1h weapons", then it's more feasible. Or even something like hand crossbow in the off-hand.

How attached are you to the sword + dagger combo? Or can you branch it out some to just be a 2 weapon user? (A large part of the problem is that, when you are a striker, you want to use the best weapons. Surprise, surprise, that will typically be the specialized weapons that require a feat. The one exception is the Rogue who loves daggers and rapiers.)

[NecroRebel]

There's relatively few ways to actually attack with two weapons in one round consistently in 4e. Basically, they involve being a Tempest Fighter or Ranger. Neither is really the elegant duelist you seem to be seeking, though. You could also be a hybrid with Ranger or Fighter and take Hybrid Talent for the two-weapon feature, but this is actually a terrible idea for most purposes, especially since you want to wield a dagger (which is already an off-hand weapon, and thus doesn't benefit from treating one-handed weapons in the off-hand as an off-hand weapon).

On the other hand, do you really care if you actually attack with the off-hand weapon? Here's what I suggest: be a straight, single-class Artful Dodger Rogue, and take proficiency feats for the rapier and parrying dagger. The parrying dagger is in the first Adventurer's Vault and has the Defensive property, giving +1 AC while wielding it and another weapon.

[Ashdate]

4e doesn't really do a "Sword and Dagger" type character well. Daggers don't confer any bonus to AC naturally, and the way that two-weapon fighting works means that they won't generally do much in the way of "fighting" either.

Tempest Fighter could work as long as you boost dex secondary (you'll need it if you want to wear light armour), but it's not really optimal. Assassins are generally terrible, but the Essentials Assassin (Heroes of Shadow) might work, although noting that they use poison.

I think a Rogue (either the "Scoundrel" PHB Rogue or the "Thief" Essentials Rogue) would work best for the concept.

Of course, naturally the dagger in your off-hand is going to do bumpkiss. There are parrying daggers (AV), but they require spending a feat in order to get the bonus. As a different option, you could get a Shielding Blade (level 4 magic item, D391); these weapons confer a +1 shield bonus. Nothing says they need to be in your main-hand...

... there is one benefit of a "normal" dagger (including a parrying one): you could get a nice enchantment on it that you can pull out in emergencies.

[SirAxealot]

I will say this: Sword + Dagger is a tough combination. If you are okay doing something like, "two 1h weapons", then it's more feasible.

How attached are you to the sword + dagger combo? Or can you branch it out some to just be a 2 weapon user? (A large part of the problem is that, when you are a striker, you want to use the best weapons. Surprise, surprise, that will typically be the specialized weapons that require a feat. The one exception is the Rogue who loves daggers and rapiers.)

What combination of two 1-handed weapons would work well? Could I take Rapier and short sword and simply fluff the short sword as a long knife?

I could also just use it as a parrying dagger, letting the main blade do all the damage.

[is_Wayside]

I made a thread about a sword and board fighter, only to find someone else in our group had claimed the defender role. Fair enough.

So now I'm looking to make something different from what I usually play, which is heavily armored fighters with big two-handed weapons. I want to make a character that uses a rapier (or longsword) and dagger or some similar combination.

Options that I have looked at so far - Tempest fighter, Rogue, Assassin.

I want to be relatively lightly armored (nothing more than leather) and to play as a Vryloka or Revenant for fluff reasons.

What recommendations do you have? Is Rogue with some Tempest Fighter mixed in possible? Assassin seems a little farther from what I have in mind. I'm thinking more expert duelist than sneaky git.

I immediately thought of a Throw-and-Stab Ranger, actually. Rapier and dagger, or even Longsword and Drow Long Knife?

[tcrudisi]

What combination of two 1-handed weapons would work well? Could I take Rapier and short sword and simply fluff the short sword as a long knife?

I could also just use it as a parrying dagger, letting the main blade do all the damage.

What class do you want to play? That really determines the optimal weapon combination.

Frankly, you are going to be looking at either Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter, or Half-Elf. There might be something else, but if so, I'm not remembering it right now.

[ghost_warlock]

You could also go sorcerer and dual-wield daggers. Of course, you usually wouldn't be stabbing people with them so much as shooting gobs of acid and fire out of them. :smalltongue:

Edit: Incidentally, as one of only two Str/Cha races, the Vryloka is a decent choice for a cosmic or dragon sorcerer.

[is_Wayside]

You could also go sorcerer and dual-wield daggers. Of course, you usually wouldn't be stabbing people with them so much as shooting gobs of acid and fire out of them. :smalltongue:

Edit: Incidentally, as one of only two Str/Cha races, the Vryloka is a decent choice for a cosmic or dragon sorcerer.

I'm playing a Rogue|Sorcerer myself. Pretty fun. Good combo. Dual wields daggers.

[SirAxealot]

What class do you want to play? That really determines the optimal weapon combination.

Frankly, you are going to be looking at either Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter, or Half-Elf. There might be something else, but if so, I'm not remembering it right now.

Well, whatever will get my idea down best really. Leaning towards Rogue.

Why is Half-Elf listed after classes?

[tcrudisi]

Well, whatever will get my idea down best really. Leaning towards Rogue.

Why is Half-Elf listed after classes?

Their ability to poach an at-will from other classes and use it as an encounter power (heroic tier) and at-will (paragon and epic tiers) is good enough to base whole builds on. For example, an Avenger with Twin Strike is damn good.

[SirAxealot]

Their ability to poach an at-will from other classes and use it as an encounter power (heroic tier) and at-will (paragon and epic tiers) is good enough to base whole builds on. For example, an Avenger with Twin Strike is damn good.

So...it gets quadruple strike?

Half-Elf Revenant would be pretty cool.

[tcrudisi]

So...it gets quadruple strike?

Half-Elf Revenant would be pretty cool.

Half-Elf is a race, not a class. It's racial power is that it can steal a level 1 at-will from a class and use it as an encounter power (or at-will power if you have the paragon tier feat). It makes dual wielding viable for a lot of classes as suddenly you can pick up something like Twin Strike from the Ranger's at-will list and use it with a Cleric. It doesn't get quadruple strike in any way. It simply gets to attack with both weapons, which is something that a Cleric can't do on its own.

Everyone can wield two weapons. Not everyone can use both weapons in one standard action because it takes a power to do that. Only a few classes get those powers. (Primarily Ranger, Fighter and Barbarian.) Half-Elves can steal those at-will powers. That's why I included them in the list.

[Badgerish]

'Scout' is the essentials dex-based melee ranger. It is also big on dual-wielding. (once a round on your turn, when you hit with a basic attack you can make an off-hand attack)
Rapier/dagger is a great setup for them, granting additional accuracy.

I've played an Elven Scout and was impressed with their ability to offload damage and be very, very maneuverable. However they are pretty simple and it's easy to fall into a charge-build and just do pretty much the same thing turn after turn.

[Dimers]

Half-Elf Revenant would be pretty cool.

Yes, though if you go revenant, you have to spend an extra feat to get that Dilettante at-will. Revenants, half-elves and bards all have mechanics for leveraging stuff that's not typically available to other races/classes, but it always costs.

TL;DR for the spoiler: make a MONK, not a class that gets explicit 2-weapon powers. Great duelist who can dance around enemies and direct what they can and can't do.


If you don't mind refluffing a bit, I'd recommend Monk for class. A Monk is very mobile and acrobatic. Their main stat is Dex, which is great for a duelist concept. They can certainly get offensive and defensive benefits from wielding two weapons -- often in terms of how their flurry of blows works, but not always. Then you fluff the flurry as your off-hand attack that happens to not have variable damage.

Desert Wind flurry: bonus damage based on Cha, the enemies you flurry have a harder time attacking you, and you shift 1. This sounds perfect for a duelist except the damage is fire. If your DM will let you replace that with untyped damage, it's perfect.
Centered Breath flurry: bonus damage based on Wis and you slide enemies around, controlling the battlefield with your canny weaponplay
Stone Fist: bonus damage based on Str (and more of it, but no special effect)
Iron Soul: bonus damage based on Con and you reduce the enemies' tactical options by preventing shifts and OAs -- like Centered Breath, showing yourself to be a master of weaponry
I can't really see a way to refluff Eternal Tide flurry in this context.

You can choose feats to add damage to all flurries, make one target bleed over time, pick a target another square away with a lunge, throw a dagger, parry madly or prevent your foes from properly defending themselves. Some of these are tradition-specific and some require you to use a certain weapon, which I heartily recommend refluffing.

Monks can also take a feat to use Dexterity for both accuracy and damage with their melee basic attacks.

And then you get into monk powers, which have you zooming all over the battlefield hitting your enemies in unexpected ways. The class at-will and encounter powers all come with extra movement options, and a lot of dailies have movement built-in as well. You'll be a demon with your refluffed blade.

[Epinephrine]

The essentials scout might fit what you are looking for, in that it works best with an off-hand light blade in the offhand, pretty much limiting it to a short sword or dagger (or variants on these).

Another option might be the Hexblade; they wouldn't be making attacks with the off-hand weapon, but a pact dagger works fine, and I believe allows using Dual Implement Spellcaster for more damage (the summoned hexblade gains the property of the implement used in the off hand, which would add the property "This blade functions as a warlock implement, adding its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls for warlock powers that use implements.") That means that you have an implement in each hand, and get a solid bonus. Hexblade weapons are often as good as or better than superior weapons, and being a dual implement caster would keep your damage up pretty well.

[masteraleph]

If you're ok with the way it plays (tcrudisi is right that some consider it boring), go with a Ranger with a Rapier in one hand and a Short Sword in the other. They're both +3 proficiency weapons, and work nicely together. Multi-class into Fighter with Battle Awareness, which gives you an new Encounter Immediate Interrupt, and eventually take the Shock Trooper Paragon Path, which makes the Short Sword into a 1d8 weapon and gives you a potential triple hitter. Or skip that process, accept that your off-hand is 1d6 instead of 1d8 and take Blade Dancer or something like that.

Avengers with Twin Strike are interesting, but they require a weird stat choice and don't fully come online until Paragon. Scouts and Hexblades both fall into the same problem, which is that their most effective action is often "CHARGE!"

Barbarians add an interesting component- they have some interesting multi-attacks that work just fine with light blades. Not as good as the Ranger, but then, what is?

[SirAxealot]

Half-Elf is a race, not a class. It's racial power is that it can steal a level 1 at-will from a class and use it as an encounter power (or at-will power if you have the paragon tier feat). It makes dual wielding viable for a lot of classes as suddenly you can pick up something like Twin Strike from the Ranger's at-will list and use it with a Cleric. It doesn't get quadruple strike in any way. It simply gets to attack with both weapons, which is something that a Cleric can't do on its own.

Everyone can wield two weapons. Not everyone can use both weapons in one standard action because it takes a power to do that. Only a few classes get those powers. (Primarily Ranger, Fighter and Barbarian.) Half-Elves can steal those at-will powers. That's why I included them in the list.

Yeah, I meant if you take an Avenger and add Twin Strike you get to roll 4 times, since each attack gets the benefit of their striker mechanic?


Yes, though if you go revenant, you have to spend an extra feat to get that Dilettante at-will. Revenants, half-elves and bards all have mechanics for leveraging stuff that's not typically available to other races/classes, but it always costs.

TL;DR for the spoiler: make a MONK, not a class that gets explicit 2-weapon powers. Great duelist who can dance around enemies and direct what they can and can't do.


If you don't mind refluffing a bit, I'd recommend Monk for class. A Monk is very mobile and acrobatic. Their main stat is Dex, which is great for a duelist concept. They can certainly get offensive and defensive benefits from wielding two weapons -- often in terms of how their flurry of blows works, but not always. Then you fluff the flurry as your off-hand attack that happens to not have variable damage.

Desert Wind flurry: bonus damage based on Cha, the enemies you flurry have a harder time attacking you, and you shift 1. This sounds perfect for a duelist except the damage is fire. If your DM will let you replace that with untyped damage, it's perfect.
Centered Breath flurry: bonus damage based on Wis and you slide enemies around, controlling the battlefield with your canny weaponplay
Stone Fist: bonus damage based on Str (and more of it, but no special effect)
Iron Soul: bonus damage based on Con and you reduce the enemies' tactical options by preventing shifts and OAs -- like Centered Breath, showing yourself to be a master of weaponry
I can't really see a way to refluff Eternal Tide flurry in this context.

You can choose feats to add damage to all flurries, make one target bleed over time, pick a target another square away with a lunge, throw a dagger, parry madly or prevent your foes from properly defending themselves. Some of these are tradition-specific and some require you to use a certain weapon, which I heartily recommend refluffing.

Monks can also take a feat to use Dexterity for both accuracy and damage with their melee basic attacks.

And then you get into monk powers, which have you zooming all over the battlefield hitting your enemies in unexpected ways. The class at-will and encounter powers all come with extra movement options, and a lot of dailies have movement built-in as well. You'll be a demon with your refluffed blade.

That sounds pretty sweet, I'll give the monk handbook a look through.



'Scout' is the essentials dex-based melee ranger. It is also big on dual-wielding. (once a round on your turn, when you hit with a basic attack you can make an off-hand attack). Rapier/dagger is a great setup for them, granting additional accuracy.

I've played an Elven Scout and was impressed with their ability to offload damage and be very, very maneuverable. However they are pretty simple and it's easy to fall into a charge-build and just do pretty much the same thing turn after turn.


The essentials scout might fit what you are looking for, in that it works best with an off-hand light blade in the offhand, pretty much limiting it to a short sword or dagger (or variants on these).

Another option might be the Hexblade; they wouldn't be making attacks with the off-hand weapon, but a pact dagger works fine, and I believe allows using Dual Implement Spellcaster for more damage (the summoned hexblade gains the property of the implement used in the off hand, which would add the property "This blade functions as a warlock implement, adding its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls for warlock powers that use implements.") That means that you have an implement in each hand, and get a solid bonus. Hexblade weapons are often as good as or better than superior weapons, and being a dual implement caster would keep your damage up pretty well.


If you're ok with the way it plays (tcrudisi is right that some consider it boring), go with a Ranger with a Rapier in one hand and a Short Sword in the other. They're both +3 proficiency weapons, and work nicely together. Multi-class into Fighter with Battle Awareness, which gives you an new Encounter Immediate Interrupt, and eventually take the Shock Trooper Paragon Path, which makes the Short Sword into a 1d8 weapon and gives you a potential triple hitter. Or skip that process, accept that your off-hand is 1d6 instead of 1d8 and take Blade Dancer or something like that.

Avengers with Twin Strike are interesting, but they require a weird stat choice and don't fully come online until Paragon. Scouts and Hexblades both fall into the same problem, which is that their most effective action is often "CHARGE!"

Barbarians add an interesting component- they have some interesting multi-attacks that work just fine with light blades. Not as good as the Ranger, but then, what is?

Lot of options here, I'll do some more reading. Right now it looks like Ranger/Scout, Monk, or Rogue is the way to go.

[Alejandro]

I made a human Rogue who is a lot of fun and very good at rapier swashbuckling. Doesn't really do dual wielding, though, because most of 4E doesn't.

[Tegu8788]

My suggestion, is to figure out who you want to focus on fighting. One guy, I'd lean Scout. Multiple guys at once, I'd lean Monk.

[Nightgaun7]

My suggestion, is to figure out who you want to focus on fighting. One guy, I'd lean Scout. Multiple guys at once, I'd lean Monk.

I've heard that the monk is very fun a number of places, and by contrast that the Scout is pretty boring, so I'd lean towards Monk of the 2

[Mando Knight]

Rapier and (Parrying) Dagger is fine for a Rogue. You just have to realize that the dagger is there not for offense, but strictly for defense (with the possibility of switching to offense if necessary). It's feat intensive, but it offers the possibility of being very tough compared to "normal" Rogues.

[Dimers]

Rapier and (Parrying) Dagger is fine for a Rogue. You just have to realize that the dagger is there not for offense, but strictly for defense (with the possibility of switching to offense if necessary).

@OP, regarding "switching to offense" -- Having an off-hand dagger is an attractive option for some Rogue builds because they can switch between melee, ranged and blast powers as they see fit. There's no penalty for using your off-hand weapon to make attacks. So if you make a Rogue and you want the flexibility to choose attacks that work at a distance while still using a rapier up close, the off-hand dagger is a great idea. I don't know if that's what Mando Knight meant, and it doesn't strike me as very "duelist"-y, but it's a point in favor of the Rogue.

[Nightgaun7]

@OP, regarding "switching to offense" -- Having an off-hand dagger is an attractive option for some Rogue builds because they can switch between melee, ranged and blast powers as they see fit. There's no penalty for using your off-hand weapon to make attacks. So if you make a Rogue and you want the flexibility to choose attacks that work at a distance while still using a rapier up close, the off-hand dagger is a great idea. I don't know if that's what Mando Knight meant, and it doesn't strike me as very "duelist"-y, but it's a point in favor of the Rogue.

How does a blast power use a dagger?

[NecroRebel]

How does a blast power use a dagger?

Many of the Rogue's close powers require the use of a ranged or thrown weapon. Presumably, they throw daggers at each target in the blast, or, for magic daggers, throw the same dagger at each target in the blast.

One problem with Parrying Daggers is that they aren't throw-capable weapons.

[Mando Knight]

I said if necessary for a reason. Not because you're going to be using close/ranged powers (though it is an option, if you don't use a parrying dagger... which in turn saves on the number of feats you need to take), but because sometimes you just might not be able to use your rapier, and having another pointy bit of metal to use in that case is nice.