Would a +Con, +Int, -Cha race be too good?

[Larkas]

A little background: I'm tweaking some "monstrous" races to be better choices for PCs in my games. This is for 3.5, but I'm using PF's attribute adjustment scheme of +Physical, +Mental, -Any because I feel it opens up design space to better flesh out the races. This also means that I'm using PF's base races (dwarf gives +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, elf gives +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int and human gives +2 to any one attribute, for example).

So, I'm currently messing with hobgoblins. They always seemed like tough, calculating guys to me, but not exactly charismatic. Something like military prodigies that only cooperate because a stronger, not inspiring, leader unites them. The obvious attribute adjustments, then, would be +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha.

As such, however, they seem like an auto-pick for Wizards. Should I worry about it?

[IronFist]

Well, I know I wouldn't.

[mattie_p]

A little background: I'm tweaking some monsters to be better choices for PCs in my games. I'm doing it for 3.5, but using PF's attribute adjustment scheme of +Physical, +Mental, -Any because I feel it opens up some design space and helps to better flesh out the races.

So, I'm currently tweaking hobgoblins. They always seemed like tough, calculating guys to me, but very much not charismatic, leading more by strength of arms than by strenght of personality. The obvious attribute adjustments, then, would be +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha.

As such, however, they seem like an auto-pick for Wizards. Should I worry about it?

I would assign an automatic +1 LA to such a race.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like the idea, it is a shame they are so few "Genius Bruiser" races, I don't see why being physically strong makes you dumber automatically, but I digress.

In any cases, yes by pure numbers it is a really strong choice for wizards, specially in "pure" 3.5, where normally race isn't that big of a deal, but I would say it is actually quite balanced for PF, since it seems you tweaked all the other races to those standards I say go ahead.

Besides it does make sense from a fluff-wise perspective, MM V (I think) has loads of casting variants for hobgoblins and IIRC must of them are Int based IIRC.

Edit: For the record they would make pretty strong Warblades too and Iron Heart (Warblade's signature discipline IMO) is pretty strongly implied to be developed by Hobgoblins, so there is that.

[Flickerdart]

Human, Illumian, and possibly even Dwarf are still better choices.

[Lateral]

In 3.5, a net +2 is usually a bad thing to have on an LA +0 race- it's a bit too powerful, but it doesn't really justify an LA +1 unless you add actual abilities.

That said, it looks like you're trying to make the race on par with Pathfinder races. In that case, it's perfectly fine for an LA +1- sure, it's a very nice pick for wizards (or any other INT-based class, for that matter), but I don't think I'd pick it over a Pathfinder human for exclusively mechanical reasons, and at the end of the day, it's not really overpowered unless it beats out humans every time.

[Chronos]

I don't think that "ubiquitous" means what you think it means. Hobgoblins aren't everywhere.

[Astral Avenger]

In 3.5, a net +2 is usually a bad thing to have on an LA +0 race- it's a bit too powerful, but it doesn't really justify an LA +1 unless you add actual abilities.

That said, it looks like you're trying to make the race on par with Pathfinder races. In that case, it's perfectly fine for an LA +1- sure, it's a very nice pick for wizards (or any other INT-based class, for that matter), but I don't think I'd pick it over a Pathfinder human for exclusively mechanical reasons, and at the end of the day, it's not really overpowered unless it beats out humans every time.

So a house-cat is overpowered? :smalltongue:

On topic: I would be fine with it, but I'm not really the expert on balance. Also, make sure that the random villagers you meet actually do something because s/he is a hobgoblin. A random person from a small town is not going to like or even be happy that a hobgoblin is walking around the middle of town buying stuff.

[Lateral]

So a house-cat is overpowered? :smalltongue:
Heh. I don't think your average hobgoblin commoner would fare much better against one than a human, though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Depends on the setting, in Eberron for example you can in fact roam by accident into a Hobgoblin village (heck they have their own nation). Not sure on the realms or greyhawk.

Golarion on the other hand, yeah they would probably be chased on-sight or outright killed, being member of a slaving race makes that to you I guess.

[Lightlawbliss]

... Also, make sure that the random villagers you meet actually do something because s/he is a hobgoblin. A random person from a small town is not going to like or even be happy that a hobgoblin is walking around the middle of town buying stuff.

Depends on the world, where that random villager is from, what has happened to that villager,...

In a big city, a hobgoblin walking through town causing no trouble is perfectly possible to be ignored. In some town where a hobgoblin saved the town from some problem, the hobgoblin might be worshiped and be handed everything they want. there are two possible examples.

[Larkas]

I think I should have made it clearer in the original post. Indeed, I'm using PF's versions of races, so an elf has +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, a dwarf has +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and a human has +2 to any one attribute.


I like the idea, it is a shame they are so few "Genius Bruiser" races, I don't see why being physically strong makes you dumber automatically, but I digress.

I know, right? :smallannoyed:


Edit: For the record they would make pretty strong Warblades too and Iron Heart (Warblade's signature discipline IMO) is pretty strongly implied to be developed by Hobgoblins, so there is that.

Oooh, good point. Just reinforces what I have in mind, though.


I don't think that "ubiquitous" means what you think it means. Hobgoblins aren't everywhere.

Eh, I knew what it meant, but the phrasing might have ended up a little wonky. What I meant to ask is that, by using those attributes, if I'd see hobgoblin wizards "everywhere".

[SimonMoon6]

In general, any race with a -2 CHA can be considered to be a race with no penalty whatsoever since most PCs have absolutely no use for CHA. (Yes, some classes use it for stuff... but still...)

Everybody needs CON for HP. Everybody would like INT for skill points (can never have enough). DEX and WIS are also good for saves (and DEX is good for AC, ranged attacks, etc). STR is only important for melee. And CHA is useful for... certain specific builds (like "sorcerer") and that's all.

So, any race that balances out with a -2 CHA is (imho) an overpowered race. (Yes, dwarves, I'm looking at you.)

OTOH, I get kind of annoyed at so many races getting CHA penalties, like tieflings who ought to be cool, scary, and awesome, any of which suggests to me a CHA bonus not a penalty. At least PF gives options for tiefling stat modifiers...

[Greenish]

For what it's worth, PF race builder didn't consider "bonuses to two physical stats, penalties to one mental" (or vice versa) or "bonuses to any two without penalties" to be all that valuable (racking in +1 and +2 respectively, in a system where PHB races have about 10 points).

[Vedhin]

I'd say that it's fine for LA +0 in PF. Hobgoblin vs Human for Wizards comes down to +2 Con vs bonus feat and skill points. I'd take the feat alone nine times out of ten. The skill points are just icing on the cake.

[ericgrau]

Depends on gaming group optimization. Generally, yes, it's too much and will be the automatic choice for wizards. But there are other really good races out there, and really good support for the early made races such as nice feats. Then the race might be normal by comparison.

[Zanos]

It's fine if everything is being rebalanced around Pathfinder races.

[Spuddles]

I would assign an automatic +1 LA to such a race.

But OP wants his players to actually use these races.


Human, Illumian, and possibly even Dwarf are still better choices.

Elf and gnome for ACFs and shadowcraft mage are also strong choices.

[Feint's End]

In 3.5, a net +2 is usually a bad thing to have on an LA +0 race- it's a bit too powerful, but it doesn't really justify an LA +1 unless you add actual abilities.

disagree

lesser planetouched are one of the very few races which can keep up with races like humans and strongheart halflings and almost all of them have at least +2. Also I allow Hobgoblins without la.

[Psyren]

Well, I know I wouldn't.


Human, Illumian, and possibly even Dwarf are still better choices.

This. OP, you're fine.

[Averis Vol]

Personally I LOVE hobgoblins; next to dwarves they are my favorite race. But were I to play an int based caster, my go to is deep imaskari for the +2 int and spell clutch. With the +2 to con I'm thinking that hobbo's are now beating them out.

If you changed that con bonus to dex, I think you would be a little better off, but in general I don't think +2 con is going to make a wizard that much more OP.

[Greenish]

If you changed that con bonus to dex, I think you would be a little better off, but in general I don't think +2 con is going to make a wizard that much more OP.+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision… this seems vaguely familiar, no? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling)

[Suddo]

I think I should have made it clearer in the original post. Indeed, I'm using PF's versions of races, so an elf has +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, a dwarf has +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and a human has +2 to any one attribute.

If you're using 3.5 rules, elfs are better. You get the elven generalist stuff and a better than grey elf stat set up.

[Blueiji]

What if you shifted the CON bonus to STR? It would be pretty similar fluff-wise, but would make it less of an obvious choice for wizards.

+2 STR, +2 INT, -2 CHA seems like a good array for Hobgoblins.

[Larkas]

What if you shifted the CON bonus to STR? It would be pretty similar fluff-wise, but would make it less of an obvious choice for wizards.

+2 STR, +2 INT, -2 CHA seems like a good array for Hobgoblins.

Eh, they seem tough (i.e.: soldiers that can march farther and for longer than most), not strong (i.e.: guys that can bend iron bars easily). Besides, the standard hobgoblin is +2 Dex, +2 Con. I'm already dropping the bonus to Dex, it doesn't make much sense for me to also let go of Con.

---

Thanks for all the replies! I think I'll go right ahead and implement these guys as I envisioned them. +2 Con, +2 Int is good for wizards, to be sure, but, from what I could gather, don't automatically make my hobgoblins an auto-pick. There may be other, more relevant things to consider than simple numerical bonuses.

Besides, higher tier classes benefit less from increased attributes than lower tier ones. My main worry was that this might break something up; apparently, it won't.

[Maginomicon]

Aleithian Dwarf: +2 Con +2 Int -4 Cha, medium, 20 ft., psychic warrior or psion, humanoid (dwarf, psionic), psionics (update 3.0 psionics to 3.5), web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a)

[Spuddles]

I know these forums frown on roleplay restrictions as balance mechanisms, and I would agree that in general, that is a bad way to design a system. However, house rules are different, and you're playing with a very small subset of gamers in a highly particular way- your way. In such cases, general advice isn't very useful.

With that said, playing a hobgoblin in the typically humans & humans with pointy-ears-centric typical setting of D&D, rolling hobgoblin might be detrimental. With virtually every major city of any importance in most settings being human, elf, or dwarf (greyhawk, silvermoon, Sharn, etc., etc.,), casual racism directed at green/orange/yellowskins can be pretty annoying to deal with.

I know that dealing with exotic pets or exotic races (just wtf is exotic in a game with dragons & owlbears roaming your temperate forests, anyway) around peasants can always be annoying, and will definitely influence my racial decision.

[137beth]

It would depend on whether its other class features were good for a wizard or warblade.
As it is, it has to compete with the human. Even before PF, toughness in my games worked almost exactly the way PF toughness does (I'm sure they didn't steal the idea from me...it isn't a very creative way to fix toughness), and I don't know if you are doing anything like that, but...
if this were PF, or 3.5 using PF's version of toughness, then a human could take Toughness and gain most of the effect of +2 to constitution. A human would now be up 2 charisma and 1 skill point per level compared to the hobgoblin. Are the hobgoblin's other racial features worth more than the extra skill points and charisma? Maybe, maybe not, depends on what they were...

except that the human wizard probably won't take toughness as their bonus feat. Even using the PF version, wizards have a lot of spectacular feat options (metamagic and item crafting alone are enough to starve a build of feats, throw in improved familiar, the spell mastery chain, the spell perfection chain, and feats that are good for everyone like improved initiative. And that's without leaving core.) Unless you make the racial features substantially more powerful than other races, humans are still going to dominate most of the time.

[Averis Vol]

+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision… this seems vaguely familiar, no? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling)

woops! that's what I get for posting AFB on the last few minutes of my lunch break.

Another thing I would propose is that, at least in 3.5, hobgoblins are also known for brilliant military strategy along with raw cunning. So the int could be wis instead. While this is still good for clerics, at least the hit to CHA actually affects them now, even if only in a minor way.

[Greenish]

if this were PF, or 3.5 using PF's version of toughnessImp. Toughness in 3.5 is basically the same as PF Toughness.

And if Larkas is only fiddling with attributes, hobbos would just have standard-issue Darkvision and a decent bonus to Move Silently. So, nowhere close to humans or dwarfs.


[Edit]:
Another thing I would propose is that, at least in 3.5, hobgoblins are also known for brilliant military strategy along with raw cunning. So the int could be wis instead. While this is still good for clerics, at least the hit to CHA actually affects them now, even if only in a minor way.+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Darkvision… this also seems vaguely familiar.

Indeed, I'm using PF's versions of races, so <…> a dwarf has +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha

[SassyQuatch]

Nothing wrong with it. Not like there aren't already a lot of races that fit a class well, and it hasn't meant that all players automatically choose those races.

[Novawurmson]

If it's meant to be balanced for PF races, it's fine.

I mean, Dwarves are +2 Con/+2 Wis/-2 Cha, which is incredible for druids and clerics. Gnomes are +2 Con/+2 Cha/-2 Str, which is perfect for sorcerers and oracles. I'm not seeing a problem with your proposed stat adjustments.

[Larkas]

Okay, this is what I'll be adopting:


+2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: Hobgoblins are tough and tactical, but arrogant and egotistical.
Medium: As Medium creatures, hobgoblins have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Hobgoblin base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: Hobgoblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and hobgoblins can function just fine with no light at all.
Rugged: Hobgoblins receive Endurance as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Sneaky: +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass hobgoblin’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.


The "rugged" trait is merely to round things out and be flavorful.

[Greenish]

You could consider giving them Endurance as a bonus feat, it has more applications. On the other hand, the Move Silently bonus has always struck me as out of place (though at least you rounded it out with Hide bonus).

[Larkas]

You could consider giving them Endurance as a bonus feat, it has more applications. On the other hand, the Move Silently bonus has always struck me as out of place (though at least you rounded it out with Hide bonus).

Great point about Endurance!

Regarding "stealthy", I tend to think about the Uruk-Hai when I think about hobgoblins. And, well, those guys can be sneaky if they put their mind to it, so there's that.

[SassyQuatch]

Works out to 9 RP. On par with the base races.

[Thanatosia]

Hobgoblin vs Human for Wizards comes down to +2 Con vs bonus feat and skill points
Except that the +2 int is also giving skillpoints equal to what a human would get anyways. So basically Human vs Hobgoblin Wizard is you are buying +2 con for a Feat slot, wich is an AMAZING use of a feat slot.... even at epic levels you only get +1 con for an epic feat.

I do think it's too strong, and I also have a fluff issue with Hobgoblins being on average smarter then the average human. For a Goblinoid race, just not having an int penalty makes them pretty smart. With the bonus Con instead of a penalty, I think you've also made Hogoblins surpass Elves as a naturally Wizardry inclined race... I just don't like it. You've made a Martial Race who's whole lore role and fluff kit as military fighters into better wizards then Fighters.

I'd say leave it at +2 Con, -2 cha (still a great trade for most classes), and instead of the int boost, give them the Human Bonus skillpoints to reflect their cunning nature, or find some other way to reflect cunning rather then general ingeniousness.

[Lateral]

Except that the +2 int is also giving skillpoints equal to what a human would get anyways. So basically Human vs Hobgoblin Wizard is you are buying +2 con for a Feat slot, wich is an AMAZING use of a feat slot.... even at epic levels you only get +1 con for an epic feat.

I do think it's too strong, and I also have a fluff issue with Hobgoblins being on average smarter then the average human. For a Goblinoid race, just not having an int penalty makes them pretty smart. With the bonus Con instead of a penalty, I think you've also made Hogoblins surpass Elves as a naturally Wizardry inclined race... I just don't like it. You've made a Martial Race who's whole lore role and fluff kit as military fighters into better wizards then Fighters.

I'd say leave it at +2 Con, -2 cha (still a great trade for most classes), and instead of the int boost, give them the Human Bonus skillpoints to reflect their cunning nature.
It's balanced for Pathfinder. In Pathfinder, humans get a +2 to any one stat, so by your own reasoning, this Hobgoblin would be just flat less powerful.

[Greenish]

Except that the +2 int is also giving skillpoints equal to what a human would get anyways. So basically Human vs Hobgoblin Wizard is you are buying +2 con for a Feat slot, wich is an AMAZING use of a feat slot.... even at epic levels you only get +1 con for an epic feat.The ability boosting epic feats suck. They would suck as normal feats, too. And the human can put their bonus to Int and get ahead on the skill points, which they'd probably do if they're a wizard.


For a Goblinoid race, just not having an int penalty makes them pretty smart.No goblinoid creature has Int penalty (except maybe some obscure subrace, but then, there are human subraces with Int penalty), so that's just fantasy racism. :smalltongue:


I'd say leave it at +2 Con, -2 cha (still a great trade for most classes), and instead of the int boost, give them the Human Bonus skillpoints to reflect their cunning nature.Except that the idea was to make monstrous races worth playing.

[Thanatosia]

It's balanced for Pathfinder. In Pathfinder, humans get a +2 to any one stat, so by your own reasoning, this Hobgoblin would be just flat less powerful.
Ah.... not too familiar with PF. But still, I don't think it fits their fluff well, it still mechanically suits them more towards wizardy then fighting, wich is opposed to what Hobgoblins should be IMO. Find some way to reflect their cunning that benefits them more as fighters then as casters. But it's your campaign, and thats just my opinion.

[Greenish]

Ah.... not too familiar with PF. But still, I don't think it fits their fluff well, it still mechanically suits them more towards wizardy then fighting, wich is opposed to what Hobgoblins should be IMO.Because Intelligence has nothing to do with fighting? Opinions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) might (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) differ (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Roy_Greenhilt).

[Thanatosia]

Because Intelligence has nothing to do with fighting? Opinions might differ.
My objection is that Hobgoblins should be optimized towards a figher role, since that's their favored class and they are a heavily martial society where virtually every member of the race is a soldier.

Saying Int has nothing to do with Fighting is a blatant strawman, the point is it serves a Wizard far, far, far, leagues and heaps and bounds better then a Fighter - so giving them a Int boost is optimizing them for wizardy instead of fighting, wich is counter to the design intent of the race IMO.

Even the con bonus IMO tilts them towards wizards... since they get just as many bonus HP as fighers, have a smaller HP pool to add those bonus HP too (bigger effect on their overall survivability), and most importantly, Unless it's changed in PF, Concentration is a Con based skill.

[Thanatosia]

No goblinoid creature has Int penalty (except maybe some obscure subrace, but then, there are human subraces with Int penalty), so that's just fantasy racism.
That's because in my mind I tend to clump Orcs and Gnolls in with the Goblinoids, but they are not technically of the goblinoid subtype, so my error there.

[Greenish]

My objection is that Hobgoblins should be optimized towards a figher role, since that's their favored class and they are a heavily martial society where virtually every member of the race is a soldier.I don't think every race has to have the perfect stats for their favoured class.


Saying Int has nothing to do with Fighting is a blatant strawman, the point is it serves a Wizard far, far, far, leagues and heaps and bounds better then a Fighter - so giving them a Int boost is optimizing them for wizardy instead of fighting, wich is counter to the design intent of the race IMO.Well, I grant you Int does more for wizards than it does for fighters, but still, refer to the above.


Even the con bonus IMO tilts them towards wizards... since they get just as many bonus HP as fighers, have a smaller HP pool to add those bonus HP too (bigger effect on their overall survivability), and most importantly, Unless it's changed in PF, Concentration is a Con based skill.If you're saying Con is better (or more worth it) to the wizards (who have a million ways to avoid damage, starting from "not standing next to the enemy") than to fighters, well, that's just nonsense.

Also, OP plays 3.5, not PF (which doesn't have Concentration as a skill).

[Thanatosia]

I don't think every race has to have the perfect stats for their favoured class.
I like to view optimization as the rationale behind why the race ended up the path it went down. Elves for example have a high culture favoring wizardry because they are naturally optimized wizards.

If Hobgoblins had the stats you gave them, I have a hard time justifying their current culture and society they have built for themselves - if they are such naturally good wizards, why is their culture so dominated by the fighters?

[Greenish]

If Hobgoblins had the stats you gave themWho, me?


if they are such naturally good wizards, why is their culture so dominated by the fighters?Because they think wizards are wussies and only proper magic comes from singing? You know, cultural reasons.


And anyway, favoured classes are about multiclassing. Favoured Class: Fighter does absolutely nothing if you play a straight fighter. Elves have Favoured Class: Wizard, because in the past editions "Elf" was a fighter/wizard class.

[SassyQuatch]

...

Favored class does not work that way. You don't walk into a village with 80% level 1 Clerics or Wizards. You walk into a village with Commoners, Experts, and Warriors. Plus maybe a handful of adventurer class NPCs.

Not to mention that it is a bad and insulting stereotype that Fighters have to come from non-intelligent races. So they want to be smart fighters instead of big burly fighters, what's the big deal?

[Rosstin]

With that said, playing a hobgoblin in the typically humans & humans with pointy-ears-centric typical setting of D&D, rolling hobgoblin might be detrimental. With virtually every major city of any importance in most settings being human, elf, or dwarf (greyhawk, silvermoon, Sharn, etc., etc.,), casual racism directed at green/orange/yellowskins can be pretty annoying to deal with.

I ran a campaign where ALL the races were monsters. The small colony of winter-adapted humans in the northern lands were the odd ones.

Granted, plenty of the monsters were still racist against eachother.

[Thurbane]

In 3.5, a net +2 is usually a bad thing to have on an LA +0 race- it's a bit too powerful, but it doesn't really justify an LA +1 unless you add actual abilities.
Except in good ole powergamer's paradise Forgotten Realms, where you can have a "lesser" Aasimar with a net +4 to abilities at LA +0. :smallconfused:

[IronFist]

Elves for example have a high culture favoring wizardry because they are naturally optimized wizards.

Elves suck as wizards. Most racial features make no difference, a penalty to Con really really hurts, Dex doesn't help that much.
That's why they added substitution levels, racial feats and the like to try and make elves good wizards - because the PHB elf is one of the worst possible races for that class.

[Hytheter]

Are elves really good for any class?

Con isn't really anyone's dump stat... unless you're undead.

[TuggyNE]

Elves suck as wizards. Most racial features make no difference, a penalty to Con really really hurts, Dex doesn't help that much.
That's why they added substitution levels, racial feats and the like to try and make elves good wizards - because the PHB elf is one of the worst possible races for that class.

I think you mean 3.5 elves there; PF elves, possessing +2 Int natively, are not so terrible as all that by any means. (And the OP is using PF races exclusively.)

[IronFist]

I think you mean 3.5 elves there; PF elves, possessing +2 Int natively, are not so terrible as all that by any means. (And the OP is using PF races exclusively.)
Yes, but that's not what Thanatosia was referring to. He wasn't talking about the OP, he was talking abotu D&D as a whole.

[Larkas]

Yes, but that's not what Thanatosia was referring to. He wasn't talking about the OP, he was talking abotu D&D as a whole.

PF elves actually have a reason to be wizards, what with having +2 Int and innate Spell Penetration that stacks with Spell Penetration. But you're right, in 3.5, I'd never play a wizard elf this side of gray elves.

[Thurbane]

PF elves actually have a reason to be wizards, what with having +2 Int and innate Spell Penetration that stacks with Spell Penetration. But you're right, in 3.5, I'd never play a wizard elf this side of gray elves.
Fire Elves aren't bad, either (+2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha).

Of course, if you plan to go down the Necropolitan path, Elves aren't quite as bad.

[TuggyNE]

Yes, but that's not what Thanatosia was referring to. He wasn't talking about the OP, he was talking abotu D&D as a whole.

If the thread is about PF, and you go exclusively with 3.5 fluff and crunch, something is off. And I say it as shouldn't, since I have a hard time keeping all the differences straight myself; it's just, this particular case very definitely doesn't apply to the scope of the thread.

[IronFist]

If the thread is about PF, and you go exclusively with 3.5 fluff and crunch, something is off. And I say it as shouldn't, since I have a hard time keeping all the differences straight myself; it's just, this particular case very definitely doesn't apply to the scope of the thread.

Thanatosia did a general claim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15947693&postcount=45) regarding D&D as a whole and even pointed out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15947552&postcount=40) he was unfamiliar with PF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15947609&postcount=42). There is context and then there is context; when it comes to my reply, the thread being PF or not is immaterial. I already acknowledged you're right when it comes to PF and wizard anyway, so I don't see why you're telling me off.

[Larkas]

Fire Elves aren't bad, either (+2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha).

Of course, if you plan to go down the Necropolitan path, Elves aren't quite as bad.

There are those FR's Sun Elves too, -2 Con, +2 Int, IIRC. But hey, those are "the other side" of gray elves. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

If the thread is about PF, …then I've gotten entirely wrong idea about the entire thread. Imagine, the whole time, I've been thinking that it is about 3.5, but with races that have PF adjustments.

[Talya]

In general, any race with a -2 CHA can be considered to be a race with no penalty whatsoever since most PCs have absolutely no use for CHA. (Yes, some classes use it for stuff... but still...)


Conversely, I won't dump charisma, like, ever. As a consequence I tend to gravitate to builds that have a use for it. If a race has a penalty to charisma, I don't play it.

[Lord Haart]

I don't know if such stats are too good for LA +0, but i do know for certain that they woudn't make for a good enough reason to play with LA +1. So i'd say it's better to have a strong race players love than a balanced race nobody plays. It's not like humans get banned as often as being rated as top race in every handbook for every single class would suggest.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Fire Elves aren't bad, either (+2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha).

Of course, if you plan to go down the Necropolitan path, Elves aren't quite as bad.

Dragonborn helps you too offset the con penalty if you do mind being an unholy abomination given semblance of life trough negative energy :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

For the record, the game will be taking place in Eberron.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dhakaani Hobgoblins are best Hobgoblins!

All I can say about that:smallcool: