Bard Replacement

[Arkusus]

So, I've got someone in my game playing a Bard. Because of how few people there are, each player has two characters.

So, everyone seems to be enjoying themselves more or less, and this player seems to like her other more brutish character fine, but doesn't really seem to care about the bard.

Essentially the bard fills 2 services... 1: party buff with Dragonfire inspiration, and 2: provides the party's healing with her casting ability.
That being said, she sucks round-to-round in combat, and tends to always flub her bardic knowledge checks, and while she DOES have the highest charisma of the group, her social checks aren't that much better than someone else in the group. She seems kinda bored with this bard because she pretty much just helps other people do their thing.

So, I figured I'd look around before next meetup , to see if I can find a class she might enjoy more. She has stated (quite explicitly) that she does not want to play a cleric, which I assume rules out cleric-like classes such as a Favored Soul.

The party does need some decent healing, but as long as they can keep up with bard-level healing, it should be fine.

Anyone know any neat classes that she might like? I'm not sure what to recommend at this point, and don't want a player playing something they don't enjoy and all that...

[eggynack]

What does she actually want to do? Without some sort of guidance along those lines, I'm mostly just listing classes I like. So, y'know, maybe she should be a druid, cause I like druids.

[Razanir]

A second bard, but help her in building a diplomancer. Convince that succubus to join the side of good!

[Gwendol]

Why don't you help her develop her bard into a more martial character then? Crusader fits with bard thanks to the song of white raven feat.

[Arkusus]

What does she actually want to do? Without some sort of guidance along those lines, I'm mostly just listing classes I like. So, y'know, maybe she should be a druid, cause I like druids.

She likes a lot of the things the bard stands for, providing aid to the rest of the party, providing restoration, helping people be their best. I think the problem arises that her bard as-is, is not very useful on her own... She can help other people be better, but she can't really help herself. So basically she amounts to a singing rock that someone carries in their pocket, and her actual character is less relevant.

I might look into that crusader, sounds interesting.

Also, if there are any bard prestige classes, that might be worth looking into

[A.A.King]

War Chanter is a great Bard Prestige Class, it gives some really great combat buffs but you lose out on casting

If you are looking for alternative base classes. Dragon Shamans can both Heal and Support well.

[eggynack]

She likes a lot of the things the bard stands for, providing aid to the rest of the party, providing restoration, helping people be their best. I think the problem arises that her bard as-is, is not very useful on her own... She can help other people be better, but she can't really help herself. So basically she amounts to a singing rock that someone carries in their pocket, and her actual character is less relevant.

I might look into that crusader, sounds interesting.

Also, if there are any bard prestige classes, that might be worth looking into
So, buffing, but more active buffing? Well, you could always beef up the standard bard build into a bard/sublime chord/war weaver build. That'd make the character's buffing magic crazy with the potency, while keeping a lot of that essential bardness. The specific build is something like bard 7/war weaver 1/uncanny trickster 1/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 1/war weaver 4/uncanny trickster 2/virtuoso 3. The specifics can be tossed up a little, but the general idea, is that you stick a whole pile of classes where the first caster level is dead, right before you change up the whole casting progression with sublime chord. It's usually done with just virtuoso, but I'm a fan of adding war weaver and uncanny trickster to the mix for fun points.

[holywhippet]

That being said, she sucks round-to-round in combat, and tends to always flub her bardic knowledge checks, and while she DOES have the highest charisma of the group, her social checks aren't that much better than someone else in the group. She seems kinda bored with this bard because she pretty much just helps other people do their thing.


Is this because the other players have invested their skills well or because the player has invested their skills badly? There are a lot synergy bonuses to be had for diplomacy if you have a few points spent in the right skills, you can get +2 bonuses for:

- 5 ranks of knowledge: nobility
- 5 ranks of bluff
- 5 ranks of sense motive

Those bonuses stack, add in the charisma modifier and ranks in diplomacy and you should have a fairly high base value even before making a roll.

[Arkusus]

Is this because the other players have invested their skills well or because the player has invested their skills badly? There are a lot synergy bonuses to be had for diplomacy if you have a few points spent in the right skills, you can get +2 bonuses for:

- 5 ranks of knowledge: nobility
- 5 ranks of bluff
- 5 ranks of sense motive

Those bonuses stack, add in the charisma modifier and ranks in diplomacy and you should have a fairly high base value even before making a roll.

I think the next best needed diplomacy for a prestige class (Holy Liberator) or something.

Some synergies and the like could be a good way to go though, and would set her apart when dealing with other people...

[Maginomicon]

Likes the idea of helping others but tired of being incapable of standing on her own? Sounds like a marshal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=muucq34t7t4qrv60ofv5c9g602&topic=3475) (which coincidentally multiclasses well with bard).

A sha'ir (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=muucq34t7t4qrv60ofv5c9g602&topic=849) might also work well to multiclass, especially since sha'irs are awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15202614&postcount=34).

If you want something that complements her other character, it'd be good to let us know what that other character's class is.

You could also implement Real Alignments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283341) and thus open up more ambiguously-evil heroic classes.

[Arkusus]

So, buffing, but more active buffing? Well, you could always beef up the standard bard build into a bard/sublime chord/war weaver build. That'd make the character's buffing magic crazy with the potency, while keeping a lot of that essential bardness. The specific build is something like bard 7/war weaver 1/uncanny trickster 1/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 1/war weaver 4/uncanny trickster 2/virtuoso 3. The specifics can be tossed up a little, but the general idea, is that you stick a whole pile of classes where the first caster level is dead, right before you change up the whole casting progression with sublime chord. It's usually done with just virtuoso, but I'm a fan of adding war weaver and uncanny trickster to the mix for fun points.

This actually has given me a lot of good ideas... thanks.

Do you know if there is a way to get Inspire Courage to stack with War Weaver levels? Because with only one level, you could only use level 1 spells, but otherwise Eldritch Tapestry is pretty great, ESPECIALLY for party-healing.

Otherwise the Virtuoso is pretty interesting for later-levels, and adds some very interesting tricks to the build.

Uncanny Trickster is amusing, I'll have to look into Complete Scoundrel a bit more to figure out what that's capable of though.

Sublime Chord is interesting as well, will have to check it out more.

[nedz]

Some people like playing Bards, others don't. There's not much you can do about this since it comes down to the Player's personality.

It doesn't help that the tricks for building a melle Bard are not obvious.

[eggynack]

This actually has given me a lot of good ideas... thanks.

Do you know if there is a way to get Inspire Courage to stack with War Weaver levels? Because with only one level, you could only use level 1 spells, but otherwise Eldritch Tapestry is pretty great, ESPECIALLY for party-healing.

Otherwise the Virtuoso is pretty interesting for later-levels, and adds some very interesting tricks to the build.

Uncanny Trickster is amusing, I'll have to look into Complete Scoundrel a bit more to figure out what that's capable of though.

Sublime Chord is interesting as well, will have to check it out more.
Well, the general idea is that you end up advancing war weaver to having an effective level of seven without taking a caster level hit. After you take the first level of sublime chord, you take the second through fifth levels of war weaver, advancing sublime chord casting, and then you take the second and third level of uncanny trickster, which advances war weaver advancing sublime chord. Virtuoso is kinda just filler, and you have the free level pre-war weaver to get rid of the dead level of that too. In any case, you end up capable of tapestrying seventh level spells. I'd probably just advance inspire courage with some non-bard level techniques. Here's a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) for it.