Ironies of the Gates and Kraagor's Tomb speculation

[Matt620]

Now that we've seen four of the gates go ka-blooey, I'm going back and reading them, and I'm noticing that within the arcs, both the Order of the Scribble and the resulting gates are brought down by perverse ironies of the virtues of the Order of the Scribble.

While it was certainly a great idea to defend each gate with a different set of guardians in case someone wanted to go after them, I've seen the Order of the Scribble hoist by those very morals each time.

Lirian: Used a magical virus to block any spellcasters (after all, it would take spellcasters to do anything to the Gate), and was blocked by disease immunity (Redcloak's cloak and the undead Xykon)

Dorukan: Blocked evil with powerful warding sigils, never counting on the gullibility of Stupid Good Elan (both with Nale and Xykon)

Soon: Believed in honor and the rule of law, never stopping to consider what happens with someone like Miko, who drew the wrong conclusions from it.

Girard: Trusted in only family, which bit him in the ass thanks to Familicide. Also believed in illusions, which were dispelled easily.


Because of this, and from what was already stated in Serini's diary, Kraagor's tomb has a ton of monsters, which, admittedly, wouldn't stop a powerful lick like Xykon that easily. I also think it means that during that arc, something that is considered "weak" will get the upper hand by taking advantage of the strong's ego. In this case, the "weak" Order of the Stick will surprass the more prepared and arrogant Xykon, not to mention Tarquin. I also think that Redcloak will completely underestimate the "weak" MitD and get killed for it.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Hopeless]

Xykon returned to life by a ward specifically set to counter powerful undead after all if Serini was going to stock Kraagor's tomb with powerful monsters, undead would be an option... dracoliches for example and if she wanted to avoid them wiping each other out leave a means to replenish them maybe?

We still don't know how Xykon got his hands on her diary though...

Tarquin betrayed by his own party maybe because Ian disrupts their unity by some means?

How many clerics' do they have?

[BaronOfHell]

What you describe is a commonly discussed theme on the boards, which I think is broadly agreed upon. I'm a bit in the dark here, though, as for me, it's as clear as the evil opposites stuff. (EDIT: That is, not very clear at all.)

Irony has never been my strong site though. So I see it more like this:

Lirian believed in Nature and was destroyed by something Unnatural.
Her Gate defense of Nature lost to something as Natural as fire.

Dorukan believed Good and was destroyed by Evil.
His Gate defense of Good lost to someone as Good as Elan.

Soon believed in Law and his Gate defense of Law was destroyed by someone as Lawful as Miko.

Girard believed in Trickery and it was Trickery (by the fiends) which left his Gate unprotected.

Though depending on how much one wants to put into each statement, they may be completely inaccurate, or they may be accepted as somewhat acceptable. It could just as well be said:

Lirian used powerful creatures to defend her Gate, which fell to a Goblin

Dorukan believed in magic, yet his Gate fell to a "fool".

Soon believed in the unbreakable/unfallable Paladin (honor), yet ultimately lost to fallen/broken Paladin (honor)

Girard believed in cunningness and deception and his Gate was ultimately undone by people who merely walked straight through his defense.

So it can be twisted in many ways, depending on what one would personally accept, and I find when that is possible, it's not entirely clear for me, what is the right way to look at it, or if there even is a right.

[Dwy]

The question is:
Will Kraagor's gate be a bunch of massive monsters only, or will Serini have mixed in a few tricks of her own?

In case the latter is true, it might mean that the gate is less reliant on any single factor than the previous ones, making it a worthy final level for both adventurers and villains.

[Forikroder]

Now that we've seen four of the gates go ka-blooey, I'm going back and reading them, and I'm noticing that within the arcs, both the Order of the Scribble and the resulting gates are brought down by perverse ironies of the virtues of the Order of the Scribble.

While it was certainly a great idea to defend each gate with a different set of guardians in case someone wanted to go after them, I've seen the Order of the Scribble hoist by those very morals each time.

Lirian: Used a magical virus to block any spellcasters (after all, it would take spellcasters to do anything to the Gate), and was blocked by disease immunity (Redcloak's cloak and the undead Xykon)

Dorukan: Blocked evil with powerful warding sigils, never counting on the gullibility of Stupid Good Elan (both with Nale and Xykon)

Soon: Believed in honor and the rule of law, never stopping to consider what happens with someone like Miko, who drew the wrong conclusions from it.

Girard: Trusted in only family, which bit him in the ass thanks to Familicide. Also believed in illusions, which were dispelled easily.


Because of this, and from what was already stated in Serini's diary, Kraagor's tomb has a ton of monsters, which, admittedly, wouldn't stop a powerful lick like Xykon that easily. I also think it means that during that arc, something that is considered "weak" will get the upper hand by taking advantage of the strong's ego. In this case, the "weak" Order of the Stick will surprass the more prepared and arrogant Xykon, not to mention Tarquin. I also think that Redcloak will completely underestimate the "weak" MitD and get killed for it.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

the fall of Dorukon and Lirians gate had no ironies, Lirians gate was a virus its not ironic that an undead was immune to it, and though it is kinda ironic that the conquering heros destroyed the gate it has nothing to do with Dorukons deffense strategy

[Clyner]

the fall of Dorukon and Lirians gate had no ironies, Lirians gate was a virus its not ironic that an undead was immune to it, and though it is kinda ironic that the conquering heros destroyed the gate it has nothing to do with Dorukons deffense strategy

Only speculating but Dorukon seemed to believe that only the strongest magic could defend the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). However, his magic was subverted and used to destroy everything he had worked for via his own self destruct

[littlebum2002]

the fall of Dorukon and Lirians gate had no ironies, Lirians gate was a virus its not ironic that an undead was immune to it, and though it is kinda ironic that the conquering heros destroyed the gate it has nothing to do with Dorukons deffense strategy

Lirian's gate was destroyed by fire, not by Xykon. Thus the irony, since fire is completely natural.

I agree Durokon's destruction was not ironic. He just forgot that "good =/= smart"

[Clyner]

Lirian's gate was destroyed by fire, not by Xykon. Thus the irony, since fire is completely natural.

I agree Durokon's destruction was not ironic. He just forgot that "good =/= smart"

Eh, I'd say the self-destruct rune at the end counts. There's a certain irony in an epic wizard being undone by his own magic. :smallamused:

[Forikroder]

Only speculating but Dorukon seemed to believe that only the strongest magic could defend the gates. However, his magic was subverted and used to destroy everything he had worked for via his own self destruct

Dorukons magic did defend the gate and single handedly prevented TE from succeeding without that rune TE wins, seriously Dorukon deserves a medal

Dorukons magic actually worked perfectly, his rune prevented TE from using the powers of the snarl and the self destruct rune ensured that noone could return and abuse his defenseless gate


Lirian's gate was destroyed by fire, not by Xykon. Thus the irony, since fire is completely natural.

i dont think Irony means what you think irony means unless you think that if someone uses a forest to defend there gate its entirely unsuspected that it would be weak to fire

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm not sure if it's ironic as such, or just "nothing made by mortals is perfect, so there's gotta be a weak point somewhere -- probably a bunch of 'em." :smallamused:

[Clyner]

Dorukons magic did defend the gate and single handedly prevented TE from succeeding without that rune TE wins, seriously Dorukon deserves a medal

Dorukons magic actually worked perfectly, his rune prevented TE from using the powers of the snarl and the self destruct rune ensured that noone could return and abuse his defenseless gate

Disagree, If the magic worked perfectly, the gate would still be standing. The scribble's stated goal was to defend the gates (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) which, in turn, keep the rift from growing. However, Xykon figured out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) how the break the gate's seal already. Heck, he almost got Elan to break it for him. While Durkon's magic did provide a nice way to kill Xykon none of Durkon's protection spells managed to directly influence the gate in any way.
Until the self destruct rune, that is :smalltongue:

[Forikroder]

Disagree, If the magic worked perfectly, the gate would still be standing. The scribble's stated goal was to defend the gates (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) which, in turn, keep the rift from growing. However, Xykon figured out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) how the break the gate's seal already. Heck, he almost got Elan to break it for him. While Durkon's magic did provide a nice way to kill Xykon none of Durkon's protection spells managed to directly influence the gate in any way.
Until the self destruct rune, that is :smalltongue:

Durokons rune protected the gate long enough for someone to come deal with the evil trying to use it for evil (also Xykon thinks that he did if i was Dorukon i wouldnt put ANY release clause on my uber rune)

now if i may ask, why on earth do you think Dorukon built in a self destruct rune except to destroy the gate and bury the rift to ensure it couldnt be used for evil?

[littlebum2002]

It isn't ironic if you build a self-destruct device and someone happens to use it. At least, I don't see how that's ironic. Maybe I'm just missing the connection.

[Amphiox]

The greatest irony is simply this:

The Scribblers won, secured the rifts, and built the gates, by working together as a team, wherein each member's strength covered another member's weakness.

Their gates fell, one by one, because they stood apart, and tried to defend them each alone.

[Forikroder]

The greatest irony is simply this:

The Scribblers won, secured the rifts, and built the gates, by working together as a team, wherein each member's strength covered another member's weakness.

Their gates fell, one by one, because they stood apart, and tried to defend them each alone.

thats pretty predictable it would be ironic if they each seperately sealed a rift successfully alone, then leanred of each other and joined forces which then caused the gates to crumble

the whole "united we stand divided we fall" thing is pretty standard

also considering the inter party conflicts at the end the gates probably have stood longer since tehy left each other alone

[Clyner]

Durokons rune protected the gate long enough for someone to come deal with the evil trying to use it for evil (also Xykon thinks that he did if i was Dorukon i wouldnt put ANY release clause on my uber rune)
I can't answer this without some kind of timeline . That said, the no release clause is a good idea.


now if i may ask, why on earth do you think Dorukon built in a self destruct rune except to destroy the gate and bury the rift to ensure it couldnt be used for evil?

Letting the rift grow underground unnoticed like that is a potential doomsday scenario.




It isn't ironic if you build a self-destruct device and someone happens to use it. At least, I don't see how that's ironic. Maybe I'm just missing the connection.

Less that, more that his epic magic is the gate's undoing. It's a contrast between between what might be expected and what actually occurs

[Forikroder]

Letting the rift grow underground unnoticed like that is a potential doomsday scenario. In the best case it grows to the size of a small city, then stops. Worst case, the snarl gets through. (or is already through)

i offer you 2 choices

either someone can destroy the world today, or someone can destroy the world in 3 weeks

make your bet

also if the snarl could escape so easily he would have by now the Scribbles found 5 gates that the snarl couldnt escape from


Less that, more that his epic magic is the gate's undoing. It's a contrast between between what might be expected and what actually occurs

but thats not what happened, his magic was TEs undoing

everything that happened in the dungeon was well within the expectations of Dorukon

[Clyner]

i offer you 2 choices

either someone can destroy the world today, or someone can destroy the world in 3 weeks

make your bet
Or, both people can destroy the world in 3 weeks, because the ritual takes several weeks to cast :smalltongue:


also if the snarl could escape so easily he would have by now the Scribbles found 5 gates that the snarl couldnt escape from
Rifts. The scribble found the rifts. because the snarl reached through one with a tendril and murdered someone. The fact is, with the gates destroyed and a secondhand account of the snarl reaching through there isn't a reason to believe that the snarl cannot escape. I personally subscribe to the theory that he will not escape for some reason



everything that happened in the dungeon was well within the expectations of Dorukon
Then why is he dead?

[Forikroder]

Rifts. The scribble found the rifts. because the snarl reached through one with a tendril and murdered someone. The fact is, with the gates destroyed and a secondhand account of the snarl reaching through there isn't a reason to believe that the snarl cannot escape. I personally subscribe to the theory that he will not escape for some reason

he probably doesnt exist anymore

and even if he can reach through he could never escape


Then why is he dead?

prismatic spray

but the point remains, his rune kept his gate perfectly safe and his self-destruct rune perfectly reduced it to ash

[Clyner]

he probably doesnt exist anymore

and even if he can reach through he could never escape

What are you basing this off of?


prismatic spray

but the point remains, his rune kept his gate perfectly safe and his self-destruct rune perfectly reduced it to ash
(okay, this is going to go in a circle)
Disregarding the doomsday thing. That's your definition of a perfect plan? one that leaves you dead with an epic enemy in control of your fortress?

[Forikroder]

What are you basing this off of?

everything weve seen of rifts up to this point...?


Disregarding the doomsday thing. That's your definition of a perfect plan? one that leaves you dead with an epic enemy in control of your fortress?

i never said it was a perfect plan, Dorukon anticipated that he wouldnt be around forever, so he built a rune to defend the gate for him (which worked perfectly) and he anticipated that the gate may be needed to be destroyed so he built a rune (which also worked perfectly)

[Bulldog Psion]

It take it that all defeats are ironic?

[Clyner]

everything weve seen of rifts up to this point...?

No no, specifics. What have you personally seen that renders the snarl dead or incapable of stepping through the rift instead of say, my view that it is likely the snarl (or whatever the snarl represents) simply chooses not to?




i never said it was a perfect plan, Dorukon anticipated that he wouldnt be around forever, so he built a rune to defend the gate for him (which worked perfectly) and he anticipated that the gate may be needed to be destroyed so he built a rune (which also worked perfectly)

Alright, fine. "within expectations". Assuming for a second that Dorukon planned to die instead of say, become immortal somehow which is something you can't possibly know for sure; and that he somehow expected Xykon to touch and activate, and be destroyed by a lethal rune. the self destruct rune STILL goes off, destroying the gate, and letting the rift grow unnoticed despite the fact that the magical self-destruction of the gate is completely contrary to Dorukon's expressed purpose that only epic magic can defend the gates.


And now we've come full circle.

[Kornaki]

It take it that all defeats are ironic?

Yeah, when you have people arguing it's ironic that Lirian was defeated by an unnatural monster, and also that her gate was defeated by natural fire, then it's hard to use this to make future predictions

[Clyner]

It take it that all defeats are ironic?

At least the ones where the villains say, "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!! :smallsmile:

[Forikroder]

No no, specifics. What have you personally seen that renders the snarl dead or incapable of stepping through the rift instead of say, my view that it is likely the snarl (or whatever the snarl represents) simply chooses not to?

well hes behaving 100% different then he did before the gates, and theres a world on the other side of the rifts

so either the Snarl has done a complete 180 and somehow managed to grow a brain or he unsnarled himself


Alright, fine. "within expectations". Assuming for a second that Dorukon planned to die instead of say, become immortal somehow which is something you can't possibly know for sure; and that he somehow expected Xykon to touch and activate, and be destroyed by a lethal rune. the self destruct rune STILL goes off, destroying the gate, and letting the rift grow unnoticed despite the fact that the magical self-destruction of the gate is completely contrary to Dorukon's expressed purpose that only epic magic can defend the gates.

his epic magic DID defend the gate, but for some reason he foresaw a scenario where defending the gate becomes a lesser priority over destroying it

theres no ifs ands or buts about

DORUKONS UBER RUNE KEPT THE GATE PERFECTLY SAFE AGAINST EVERYTHING XYKON THREW AT IT

[Clyner]

well hes behaving 100% different then he did before the gates, and theres a world on the other side of the rifts

I agree that that is strange behavior, but it's not proof for the snarl being bound or dead any more than it proves that everything we see in the rifts is an illusion. Which I don't believe it is


his epic magic DID defend the gate, but for some reason he foresaw a scenario where defending the gate becomes a lesser priority over destroying it

theres no ifs ands or buts about

DORUKONS UBER RUNE KEPT THE GATE PERFECTLY SAFE AGAINST EVERYTHING XYKON THREW AT IT

...because using caps lock wins debates :smalltongue:

Okay, back to the beginning.
I am working from the definition of Situational Irony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony), where there is a difference between the expected result and actual results in a situation.
Dorukon: Only epic magic can defend the gates!
*gate is destroyed by epic magic*
The ironic part comes from the end result being completely incongruous with the outcome.

[Forikroder]

Only epic magic can defend the gates!

his epic magic pefectly defended the gate from his enemies, TE was camped out for weeks and never got anywhere close


*gate is destroyed by epic magic*

only becuase Dorukon planned for the possiblty of the gate needing to be destroyed

the Rift is useless to TE, they need a gate to cast the ritual so Dorukon was exactly right

it is a bit Ironic that Dorukons magic destroyed the gate but only becuase of the limited information we had at the time, now that we know that (unlike the other 4 supposedly) Dorukons real goal was NOT to protect the gate, but to ensure that evil could not use it for there plans so it makes perfect sense that there was a self destruct rune that got activated and destroyed the gate

also even ignoring that, epic magic destroying the gate is not Ironic, Dorukon said "only epic magic can defend the gate" so the flip side is "only epic magic can destroy the gate" if Dorukons gate met the same fate as Soon's and Girards gate (destroyed by non-magical means) it would be ironic that the gate he defended with epic magic was destroyed using no magic

but that isnt the case, there is no irony in the dungeon of dorukon

[Clyner]

his epic magic pefectly defended the gate from his enemies, TE was camped out for weeks and never got anywhere close



only becuase Dorukon planned for the possiblty of the gate needing to be destroyed

the Rift is useless to TE, they need a gate to cast the ritual so Dorukon was exactly right

it is a bit Ironic that Dorukons magic destroyed the gate but only becuase of the limited information we had at the time, now that we know that (unlike the other 4 supposedly) Dorukons real goal was NOT to protect the gate, but to ensure that evil could not use it for there plans so it makes perfect sense that there was a self destruct rune that got activated and destroyed the gate

also even ignoring that, epic magic destroying the gate is not Ironic, Dorukon said "only epic magic can defend the gate" so the flip side is "only epic magic can destroy the gate" if Dorukons gate met the same fate as Soon's and Girards gate (destroyed by non-magical means) it would be ironic that the gate he defended with epic magic was destroyed using no magic

but that isnt the case, there is no irony in the dungeon of dorukon

Okay, I am more than willing to continue this with you, but we've completely derailed the thread. If you want to continue this, I'll pm you or start another thread.

[Forikroder]

Okay, I am more than willing to continue this with you, but we've completely derailed the thread. If you want to continue this, I'll pm you or start another thread.

? weve actually stayed on topic amazingly well (i think this is the longest conversation ive had on an internet forum that remained on topic) the thread is about the irony of how the gates fell

[Happy Gravity]

"Samantha, a Sorceress, was killed by a sword! How ironic that a magic user be killed by a non-magical piece of metal!"

"Samantha's dad was killed by a sword! How ironic that dual-wielding bandit be killed by single weapon!"

Etc.

This definition of irony is as bad as Nale's Evil Opposites.

:/

[Clyner]

"Samantha, a Sorceress, was killed by a sword! How ironic that a magic user be killed by a non-magical piece of metal!"

"Samantha's dad was killed by a sword! How ironic that dual-wielding bandit be killed by single weapon!"

Etc.

This definition of irony is as bad as Nale's Evil Opposites.

:/

That's not what i'm using. Irony is stated as a sharp discrepancy between the expected result and actual results in a certain situation. While I agree that your definition of irony is odd, I also don't subscribe to it. :smalltongue:

[Happy Gravity]

Not talking to you, but to the thread starter. I don't know what your position is and I'm not commenting on it.

[Forikroder]

That's not what i'm using. Irony is stated as a sharp discrepancy between the expected result and actual results in a certain situation. While I agree that your definition of irony is odd, I also don't subscribe to it. :smalltongue:

and its entirely expected that something defended by epic magic then gets destroyed by epic magic

its entirely expected that someone who swears to not let X falls into evil hands destroys X

Roys actions in the desert were not Ironic and neither were dorukons

[Clyner]

? weve actually stayed on topic amazingly well (i think this is the longest conversation ive had on an internet forum that remained on topic) the thread is about the irony of how the gates fell

Okay then, and let me say that I'm kind of enjoying this :smallbiggrin:



his epic magic pefectly defended the gate from his enemies, TE was camped out for weeks and never got anywhere close

That's... actually pretty impressive, source?


and its entirely expected that something defended by epic magic then gets destroyed by epic magic

its entirely expected that someone who swears to not let X falls into evil hands destroys X

Roys actions in the desert were not Ironic and neither were dorukons
Being fair to Roy, he's not aware that the Ritual takes several weeks

What I'm saying is, Dorukon trusted in the absolute power of magic, and in the end, his own magic undid all that he worked for.

[Geordnet]

only becuase Dorukon planned for the possiblty of the gate needing to be destroyed
But that's where the irony is: the Gate didn't need to be destroyed. The Order of the Stick had already beaten Team Evil and saved the gate when Elan pushed the self-destruct button. Elan's destruction of Dorukon's gate was as needless as Miko's destruction of Soon's. And therein lies the irony.

Hm, that's interesting: all three of the main-comic gates have been destroyed deliberately, when destroying the gate was in fact not the best course of action. Elan did it because he didn't think through the consequences, Miko because she jumped to unassailable conclusions, and Roy because he was uninformed. I wonder if the gate in SoD fits this pattern?

[Clyner]

That... actually makes a great deal more sense than my points. Well played sir.

[LuPuWei]

the fall of Dorukon ...


...
I agree Durokon's destruction was not ironic...


...While Durkon's magic did provide a nice way to kill Xykon none of Durkon's protection spells ...

Dorukan must have hated school... :smallbiggrin:

[Manga Shoggoth]

But that's where the irony is: the Gate didn't need to be destroyed. The Order of the Stick had already beaten Team Evil and saved the gate when Elan pushed the self-destruct button. Elan's destruction of Dorukon's gate was as needless as Miko's destruction of Soon's. And therein lies the irony.

Hm, that's interesting: all three of the main-comic gates have been destroyed deliberately, when destroying the gate was in fact not the best course of action. Elan did it because he didn't think through the consequences, Miko because she jumped to unassailable conclusions, and Roy because he was uninformed. I wonder if the gate in SoD fits this pattern?

The gate in SOD... ...was destroyed in the second fight between Team Evil and Lirian's minions - I think Lirian was already dead at that point.

However it doesn't quite fit the pattern - Redcloak set a treent (spelling?) on fire and the fire spread, causing the gate's destruction. Readcloak didn't deliberately destroy the gate, and indeed didn't want to.

[quasit]

i dont think Irony means what you think irony means unless you think that if someone uses a forest to defend there gate its entirely unsuspected that it would be weak to fire

As things went I see it ironic. The same forces of the nature that were guarding the gate
A pair of treeants, destroyed it when they caught fire, panicked, flee and torn the gate in two(To which they're firmly bolted). While the remaining forces hampered redcloak desperate attemps to stop the fire spreading.
ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT FOREST FIRES

[quasit]

The gate in SOD... ...was destroyed in the second fight between Team Evil and Lirian's minions - I think Lirian was already dead at that point.

However it doesn't quite fit the pattern - Redcloak set a treent (spelling?) on fire and the fire spread, causing the gate's destruction. Readcloak didn't deliberately destroy the gate, and indeed didn't want to.

hmnnn... me neither but maybe...
At the first battle for the gate, Right-eye burned Wrong-eye on how odd was that he wasn't prepared to fight treeants with spells like flame strike and thus he had to pick the slack by chopping wood. Later on, the second time, he was well prepared, and that led to the gate being destroyed.
would qualify?