Make one more step and I'll kill the princess!

[Ranting Fool]

This came up quite awhile ago now but I was wondering how you lot deal with the problem of hostages.

Now within the rules if players meet BBEG with hostage and they talk then it's just a initiative roll to see who goes first. And the BBEG has no actual advantage to having a hostage ready to kill.

It just seems rather difficult to create a situation where a less powerful NPC can make the heroes pause for a moment before charging in.


So how do you lot handle this sort of thing (Saving hostages is the kind of thing that heroes like to do :smalltongue: )

[Shloogorgh]

If the villain has an action readied, he can attack the princess if the PCs disobey his instructions

[Ranting Fool]

If the villain has an action readied, he can attack the princess if the PCs disobey his instructions

Can you "Ready an Action" outside of combat ?

[Krobar]

If the villain has an action readied, he can attack the princess if the PCs disobey his instructions

This.

Readied action, knife to throat. Guess what that action will be if it comes down to it ...

[Douglas]

To start with, for any kind of reliable one-hit kill fluff-wise, the BBEG needs to have the hostage helpless. Given that, the coup de grace rules spring to mind. The problem is how to finish it before the players actions complete.

I would solve it by:
a) rule that readied actions do not require official combat initiative
b) use a standard action before the players come in to begin the full round action of coup de grace
c) house rule that coup de grace is an exception to the rule that the standard action completion of the full round action must be done in the next round. This makes sense fluff-wise as the coup de grace can be readily split fluff-wise into two roughly equal parts that don't need to be done immediately together - lining up the strike, and making the strike.

Tada, if the players act in a way the BBEG doesn't like and that he can notice, the hostage instantly takes a crit and a fort save or die.

[Krobar]

This.

Readied action, knife to throat. Guess what that action will be if it comes down to it ...


Can you "Ready an Action" outside of combat ?

I rule that as "yes" in this sort of circumstance.

[Platymus Pus]

Can you "Ready an Action" outside of combat ?

I think so.


Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying

Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

[Ranting Fool]

To start with, for any kind of reliable one-hit kill fluff-wise, the BBEG needs to have the hostage helpless. Given that, the coup de grace rules spring to mind. The problem is how to finish it before the players actions complete.

I would solve it by:
a) rule that readied actions do not require official combat initiative
b) use a standard action before the players come in to begin the full round action of coup de grace
c) house rule that coup de grace is an exception to the rule that the standard action completion of the full round action must be done in the next round. This makes sense fluff-wise as the coup de grace can be readily split fluff-wise into two roughly equal parts that don't need to be done immediately together - lining up the strike, and making the strike.

Tada, if the players act in a way the BBEG doesn't like and that he can notice, the hostage instantly takes a crit and a fort save or die.

Ah yes that was why ready action didn't work.

[KillianHawkeye]

Now within the rules if players meet BBEG with hostage and they talk then it's just a initiative roll to see who goes first. And the BBEG has no actual advantage to having a hostage ready to kill.

It just seems rather difficult to create a situation where a less powerful NPC can make the heroes pause for a moment before charging in.

How is that not an advantage? He can effortlessly kill somebody unless the heroes are quick enough to stop him. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.

Using the readied action mechanics actually makes it too easy for the hostage taker IMO. Initiative already perfectly models how quickly somebody can react to the initiation of aggression and works fine regardless of if it's the bad guy reacting to an action taken by the heroes or if it's the heroes reacting to the bad guy attempting to make good on his threat. There's really no need for house rules here.



Anyway, the real pros at hostage taking will use threats that take less time to enact. Take the scenario with the Green Goblin at the end of Spider-Man. In one hand he holds MJ, Peter's would-be girlfriend. In the other, a trolley full of kids hanging from a cable. All he has to do is let them go (a free action), and Spider-Man can't attack Gobbo directly or he'd make him drop them anyway. He has no choice but to stop and listen to the villain's evil monologue.

[TroubleBrewing]

Rules take a backseat to story in cases like this, IMHO. It's your world; suspend the crunchy bits until combat starts.

[kaminiwa]

In response to the GM readying an action to kill the hostage, I ready an action to kill the GM's pet villain.

Seriously, D&D assumes the sort of heroes that can survive a squadron of a hundred spearmen. It is a wuxia action movie. And, in most action movies, the hero wins initiative and stops the villain from killing the hostage through a fairly miraculous series of actions.

In other words, this is a game. It has rules. One of them is called "initiative."



Allowing readied actions outside of initiative just doesn't work, mechanically. If the villain can ready an action, so can the heroes. And then you need some sort of "initiative" mechanic to decide who goes first.

In the rare cases where one group is prepared, and the other isn't, just use a surprise round - but having a hostage hardly qualifies for surprise (a red dragon crashing through the roof during that hostage negotiation, however, may very well get surprise :smallbiggrin:)

[ddude987]

Can you "Ready an Action" outside of combat ?

No, but technically the BBEG is in combat with the hostage and the players are joining after he readies his coup de grace :smallcool:

[Chronos]

It doesn't need to be a coup de grace. The princess (or other hostage) is probably only first level, in an NPC class, and can (if the DM wants) have a low Con, to boot.

[danzibr]

It doesn't need to be a coup de grace. The princess (or other hostage) is probably only first level, in an NPC class, and can (if the DM wants) have a low Con, to boot.
Shucks I was about to say this.

Wouldn't work, say, a kidnapped party member.

[Silva Stormrage]

Shucks I was about to say this.

Wouldn't work, say, a kidnapped party member.

Depending on the situation the BBEG could stab the party member a couple times to get him to critically wounded levels.

[Ranting Fool]

In response to the GM readying an action to kill the hostage, I ready an action to kill the GM's pet villain.

Seriously, D&D assumes the sort of heroes that can survive a squadron of a hundred spearmen. It is a wuxia action movie. And, in most action movies, the hero wins initiative and stops the villain from killing the hostage through a fairly miraculous series of actions.

In other words, this is a game. It has rules. One of them is called "initiative."



Allowing readied actions outside of initiative just doesn't work, mechanically. If the villain can ready an action, so can the heroes. And then you need some sort of "initiative" mechanic to decide who goes first.

In the rare cases where one group is prepared, and the other isn't, just use a surprise round - but having a hostage hardly qualifies for surprise (a red dragon crashing through the roof during that hostage negotiation, however, may very well get surprise :smallbiggrin:)

Hey I have nothing against the heroes saving the day and getting the drop on the BBEG. The vast majority of hostage situations in TV and Film work that way, but either the hero puts down his gun or starts explaining the plot "I know what you've done you'll never get away with it" or buys time while a plucky sidekick can sneak round the side and distract the BBEG at the right moment.

And this is because the odds are stacked in the BBEG favor of killing the hostage first and a strait up initiative roll vs 4 (the generic party) heroes .

[TroubleBrewing]

Seriously, D&D assumes the sort of heroes that can survive a squadron of a hundred spearmen. It is a wuxia action movie. And, in most action movies, the hero wins initiative and stops the villain from killing the hostage through a fairly miraculous series of actions.

Oh, gee, I didn't realize there was a "right" way to play this game. :smallannoyed:

[molten_dragon]

It doesn't need to be a coup de grace. The princess (or other hostage) is probably only first level, in an NPC class, and can (if the DM wants) have a low Con, to boot.

I don't know, most important hostages are going to have enough class levels that being hit with a dagger isn't going to be deadly unless it's a coup de grace. It's hard to become someone important in D&D without gaining class levels.

I suppose if the hostage was a child or something that would work.

[Ranting Fool]

Oh, gee, I didn't realize there was a "right" way to play this game. :smallannoyed:

Dude there clearly IS a right way to play this game! It boils down to "Have a laugh" :smallbiggrin:

[Drelua]

It doesn't need to be a coup de grace. The princess (or other hostage) is probably only first level, in an NPC class, and can (if the DM wants) have a low Con, to boot.

I don't know about that, according to Paizo a typical princess is a level 8 aristocrat. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-6/princess-human-aristocrat-8) :smallsigh:

[icefractal]

Well, that's a bit silly anyway. And even then, you can always pre-wound someone to put them within a stab of dying.

IMO, I don't think ready action works, because the PCs could do it too. If the villain spends a couple rounds laying out his demands, why not ready to "shoot the villain when he tries to stab the hostage"? I'd say that if you want a reliable chance to stab the hostage without being interrupted, make sure that your foes aren't close enough to reach you that quickly - like being on the other side of a gate, for example. And send someone halfway competent to deliver the demands, instead of random mook #11.

Also, consider upping your game, hostage situation wise. As KillianHawkeye mentioned, holding the hostage above a pit of spikes / lava / annihilation puts you in a much better situation, as does magical C4. Or deliver the demands by projected image, while being some distance away inside a building.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you REALLY want the bad guy to be able to coup de grace with a readied action, there is a feat which makes this possible. I forget the name of it (something like "Death Blow" I think it was), but it's in either C.Warrior or C.Adventurer and it reduces coup de grace to a Standard Action.

I still think that the standard rules for initiative and/or surprise cover the situation just fine without houseruling in readied actions outside of combat, tho.

[Greenish]

It's hard to become someone important in D&D without gaining class levels.Unless, for example, the culture in question isn't a strict meritocracy. Oh, if only there were any examples of people using family ties or money to gain a position, or perhaps some system where it is hereditary… alas, we know such things do not exist.

[kulosle]

In response to the GM readying an action to kill the hostage, I ready an action to kill the GM's pet villain.

Preparing an action isn't just a mental process, as clearly visible with the BBEG. He isn't twiddling his thumbs with his knife in his pocket, he has it to her throat. Preparing an action is just that, preparing. Readying an action to kill the villian if he tries to kill the hostage, would be pointing your bow at him, or starting to mutter your incantation. All of which would probably trigger the BBEG's readied action.

[nedz]

I don't know about that, according to Paizo a typical princess is a level 8 aristocrat. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-6/princess-human-aristocrat-8) :smallsigh:

Kind of reminds me that Vicars are level 4 Clerics. (AD&D)

[molten_dragon]

Unless, for example, the culture in question isn't a strict meritocracy. Oh, if only there were any examples of people using family ties or money to gain a position, or perhaps some system where it is hereditary… alas, we know such things do not exist.

I understand that, but you don't seem to understand that nobles were trained to inherit their positions (which would grant XP, and class levels). It was pretty rare for someone to inherit a noble title (or even worse, a throne) and be completely untrained in how to do the duties associated with their position. And assuming roleplaying XP is abailable, they'd start leveling up as soon as they inherited it and got involved in all the court politics.

And the game clearly agrees with this interpretation, since most of the nobility you see statted up has a handful of class levels.

[Ashtagon]

...D&D assumes the sort of heroes that can survive a squadron of a hundred spearmen. It is a wuxia action movie.

What if you're just wrong genre savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy)?

[ahenobarbi]

Depends. On low levels ready action to attack the hostage when PCs disobey should work. Probably auto-hit. It may or may not kill the hostage (depending on str, power attack, weapon used, sneak attack and luck), but that's ok.

On higher levels you need to think a bit harder. When PCs can literally control time a thug with a knife can't be a threat anymore.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Badass style. Fireball them and then resurrect her.

[Feytalist]

'Course, in most action movies with this kind of scene, the hero gets the drop on the bad guy anyway. So readying an action for the PCs is certainly an option. Or some other tactic like that.

[Pilo]

You can give your bad guy the Death Blow Feat( Complete Adventurer, p. 106, require +2Bab, Improved Initiative) that allows you to perform a coup de grace attack as a standard action, then ready a coup de grace.

You can also let him take the full round action as 2 standard actions (real rules from Rules compendium) one of them is the prepared one, the other comes from Celerity (Lvl4 spell, immediate action PHB2) or use Greater celerity (Lvl 8, PHB2) to get a full round action as an immediate action.

[ArcturusV]

Depends. If you're talking about the usual death trap/"I'll order my men to kill her" sort of thing I usually do go with initiative and readied actions depending on what is logical to the situation.

In the general human shield "You can't shoot me or you'll hit the hostage" sense... I usually count the human shield like a tower shield in general. Give it +6 AC and Reflex, sometimes I go with something like a percentile check like 50% or 25%. If you miss and wouldn't have hit the villain, you just miss. If you miss and would have hit except for the bonus AC/Reflex or the Miss Chance.... then you just stabbed/shot/lightning bolted the human shield.

Players haven't minded it at my tables. And it provides sort of a logical, intuitive grasp that I find most of my players could easily get. He grabbed someone and is hiding behind them. So he's harder to hit. And if you miss your shot, you might hit the hostage.

[Eric Scott]

Personally I would start with killing the "hostage"... because if it were I running the encounter the villain would be polymorph'd or alter self'd to look like the hostage and vise versa with the hostage under some sort of mind control... or they both are villains, one being polymorph'd or alter self'd to look like the hostage, while the hostage is safely kept somewhere else...

And even if you're wrong, they can be revived... usually.

[Segev]

I am with the "wound them to within a stab of dying" and the "most NPC hostages likely can be low enough level that a stab wound will kill them" camp. Consider that the classic "holding the princess in front of you by her arm and holding a knife to her neck" is probably best modeled as a grapple, and you've got the room to auto-damage her, at the very least, since villain-boy is probably in control of said grapple.

[NichG]

I really liked the suggestion that the villain is basically already in initiative with the hostage, because it clearly is a combat situation (a continuing grapple). It seems to solve a lot of the wonky issues with 'did I ready mine before he readied his?', etc.

It also establishes a way for the victim to actually fight back - they can make a grapple check to try to beat the pin. So if the villain talks for too long, the hostage might stamp his foot and dive out of his grasp or something.

The only problem with this is that you're just immobile in a pin, not helpless, so the villain can't actually CdG the hostage ever.

[Elycium]

Badass style. Fireball them and then resurrect her.

Ha! I like your style.

[Lafaellar]

I think it pretty much depends on what you actually want to accomplish:

Do you actually want the Princess to be killed and the party failing?
Do you want the party to heroically rescue her against all odds?
Do you just want to converse with the party while holding the princess at gunpoint?
Or do you just want to express the gravity of the situation and let the villain escape with or without his hostage?

That should guide you to how to approach the situation.
You are the DM, you are in charge of how you present the situation to the players.

If you want the players to fail, just use the ready action stuff and let her be a 1st level commoner with 6 hp + con (which can be 8 for a mere total of 5 tp) and Ready Action Stab her to death. There are plenty of possibilities on how you can kill her one shot (bring her to -10 HP) with a single attack. 15 damage is not that much.
You know the abilities of your group, just bring something up that prevents the heroic rescue.
The Fighter is the Initiative winning charge beast? Put the villain on a balcony "Oh no, we cannot reach her..."
The Ranger is the never failing marksman? Let him either wound the villain and let him kill the princess anyway or just put a glass between them or something like that.

You can bring up anything, you are the DM, you control the game world.
In Forgotten Realms there is this stuff called "Glasssteel" which is elven made glass hard as adamantine. Just mention that there is a wall of this glass in the atrium for decorative purposes (yes, elves use one of the most awesome materials in like ever for making nice looking stuff instead of unfailable weapons and armours) and when the battle erupts and the party is storming the atrium... TADA there is the villain behind the glass with the princess at gunpoint WHAT A COINCIDENCE!

If you don't want the princess to be killed, give them a chance. Maybe something unexpected happens and the villain gets distracted for a second to give the party room for an attack. The Princess could bite him or something like that.

If you want to converse, give the villain some sort of protection and present the situation in a way the party assumes there is no chance of rescue at this point and they have to talk with him to not make him stab her right away in the hopes of getting a chance later. Then you can make him drop her into some serious situation (throw her of a cliff or something) so the party has to use their most mighty powers just to help her (maybe she grabs hold of something but can't hold on for too long).

So just think about what you want the outcome to be and then design the encounter just for that. It always helps to mention stuff beforehand so players are not crying about "Oh my god, deus ex machina villain saving".
For example, mention the glasssteel wall right at the beginning when they get into the castle in the first place or let them know the villain already survived being shot in the head once. That way the players will accept the situation much more likely without crying.

It's a really, really simple trick that is used all over hollywood. Just keep an eye out for that. It always comes up.
Like when Lucius Fox shows Bruce Wayne the shuriken thrower that is built into the bracers and then Batman uses them to finish joker when he actually already lost.
People would cry "DEUS EX MACHINA" if it weren't for that scene in the beginning where the audience is made aware of the presence of this device.

[Killer Angel]

I think it pretty much depends on what you actually want to accomplish:

Do you actually want the Princess to be killed and the party failing?
Do you want the party to heroically rescue her against all odds?
Do you just want to converse with the party while holding the princess at gunpoint?
Or do you just want to express the gravity of the situation and let the villain escape with or without his hostage?

That should guide you to how to approach the situation.


Except, your approach is (often) wrong.

I'm not starting with the idea "the princess will die", but maybe the villain can set this specific stage, tnx to a bad plan from the group of PCs, with the surprise gone boom.
Then it's up to the players, to choose the way to resolve the situation.
They can act foolishly, and the princess will die.
They can let the villain begin the escape... and at that point, no more readied action for the BEG.
And so on...

I, as a DM, expect the players to "win" the challenges, but sometime it doesn't happen: personal decisions and fate, can determine different outcomes.

[Hytheter]

In the general human shield "You can't shoot me or you'll hit the hostage" sense... I usually count the human shield like a tower shield in general. Give it +6 AC and Reflex, sometimes I go with something like a percentile check like 50% or 25%. If you miss and wouldn't have hit the villain, you just miss. If you miss and would have hit except for the bonus AC/Reflex or the Miss Chance.... then you just stabbed/shot/lightning bolted the human shield.

Pathfinder has a feat for using a meat shield, called Body Shield. It's not nearly that effective though, and it has steep pre-requisites...

In fact, that with Greater Grapple (also pathfinder) and Death Blow mentioned above would make an excellent hostage taker, especially if the hostage is helpless.
Hell, you could give the villain his own special feat (I call it... "Hostage Taker") that counts as all of the above feats when grappling a helpless opponent. Then you get some options for your villain.
The tricky part is getting the hostage to be helpless. Though I think if the hostage is tied up then that would count?
"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."
Yeah? That's certainly an appropriate thing for the bad guy to do to his hostage too.

[Nightraiderx]

There is a feat chain in complete adventurer that make a coup de grace a standard action Improved Initiative -> Death Blow
Edit: Swordsage'd

As for having her helpless though the BBEG could've just used non-lethal damage to keep her at 0 or soemthing

[Cirrylius]

People would cry "DEUS EX MACHINA" if it weren't for that scene in the beginning where the audience is made aware of the presence of this device.

The technical term is Checkhov's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun).

[Feilith]

Cast Major Image (Visual and Auditory) then project your threats, when they try to attack the image just kill her.

[Deaxsa]

Dude there clearly IS a right way to play this game! It boils down to "Have a laugh" :smallbiggrin:

...says the ranting fool..

[Venger]

Badass style. Fireball them and then resurrect her.

Selective spell. Blast them and have her come out unscathed.

[nedz]

Naah, just Grease the Princess.

[Feytalist]

Naah, just Grease the Princess.

At first I thought you meant just kill her.

Then I thought you meant grease her, as the spell (hey man, whatever gets you off)

Now I have no idea :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

At first I thought you meant just kill her.

Then I thought you meant grease her, as the spell (hey man, whatever gets you off)

Now I have no idea :smallbiggrin:

Bonus to Escape Artist checks. Mind out of gutter, please.

[Der_DWSage]

I don't know about that, according to Paizo a typical princess is a level 8 aristocrat. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-6/princess-human-aristocrat-8) :smallsigh:

I feel the need to correct this-that's explicitly an adventuring princess, whose parents seem to be retired adventurers.

The 'typical' princess is more likely to be this level 2 Aristocrat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-0/princess-human-aristocrat-2), who still has some combat training. Probably because of such events happening far more often than the gentry likes.

[kaminiwa]

Oh, gee, I didn't realize there was a "right" way to play this game. :smallannoyed:


What if you're just wrong genre savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy)?

When I say the average hero can kill a hundred spearmen, I'm making a factual statement. The average spearman is CR 1-2. By 5th level, the Wizard can probably drop half of them with a fireball, and by 10th the party fighter can probably just stand in the middle of them doing Whirlwind Attacks.

If you're not getting this same result in your own game, then you've either mis-applied the rules (and are, in fact, wrong :smallbiggrin:) or you're using house rules (and thus outside the scope of what I can discuss :smalltongue:).

If your character is not aware of this, then I simply hope that Intelligence is their dump stat, because it should be pretty easy to notice that, yup, that squad of twenty CR 1 orcs was a pushover :)



Preparing an action isn't just a mental process, as clearly visible with the BBEG. He isn't twiddling his thumbs with his knife in his pocket, he has it to her throat. Preparing an action is just that, preparing. Readying an action to kill the villian if he tries to kill the hostage, would be pointing your bow at him, or starting to mutter your incantation. All of which would probably trigger the BBEG's readied action.


You're honestly the first person I've heard suggest that the GM should announce when enemies are readying actions in combat.

The rules don't really cover this one, but the general implication is that readied actions are "invisible" - otherwise if you "readied against a charge" the foe would just not charge you, and so on :)

If your GM wants to rule that readied actions *are* visible, you can still use Sleight of Hand, Disguise Spell Metamagic, etc. to ensure the villain doesn't notice what you're up to.

Certainly I don't think there's anything wrong with this, I've just never seen the game played that way. It does dramatically reduce the value of "Ready" if the opponent is aware of it and can adapt accordingly, though.





If you take your readied action (in the next round,) before your regular turn comes up, (your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and) you do not get your regular action that round.


Equally, I don't know many GMs who would be willing to have the villain miss the first round of combat for a readied action to kill the hostage :)

(It seems unfair to say that the villain's readied action happens within a special "Round 0" and that the PCs aren't allowed to take their own actions within that same "Round 0", but I'm quoting the full text in case someone disagrees with me :))

[ArcturusV]

The whole thing that strikes me as odd about the discussion of readied actions, coup de graces, etc... is purpose.

Why take a hostage if heroes are coming down on you like that? Handling a hostage has to slow you down, dragging them along at best. Why voluntarily Slow yourself? Nor does "I'll kill the Hostage!" mean much if the heroes are clearly going to hit you anyway. The readied action threat only matters if it matters to the heroes. The moment you see them go for an attack or something... it means nothing. If they don't immediately back off, put away weapons, etc, clearly the "Kill the princess" routine isn't going to work. So why are the bad guys taking hostages at that point anyway? If you're running the rules in such a way that it doesn't work... well... it doesn't work so they wouldn't do it.

So I'd just handle it with a "Round 0" dialogue. If they don't respond? Roll initiative, no one in that situation is clearly surprised (Or if they try to interrupt him). And have him go shank the princess. All she is at that point is dead weight, and possibly another attacker if he lets go to deal with the party. If the players win initiative, go let them disarm the situation however they will. They were just quicker on the draw. If the Princess wins out somehow? Have her go elbow him in the solar plexus and run (Using the previously unavailable distraction of the Heroes to get the drop on him).

Don't really see too much need to go into Readied Actions and Readied Against Your Readied Against Your Readied type chains.

[Joe the Rat]

Does this count as a rule dysfunction? You can't effectively threaten to kill a helpless hostage with a knife at his or her throat unless you have special training in killing helpless hostages?

I've had a party member in this sort of situation, who survived by the virtue of the full-round CdG being disrupted by someone attempting to initiate a grapple. repeatedly.

Yeah, this seems like one of those places where you should step back from the rules for the sake of realism and/or drama. On the drama side, if the players want to act before the villain does his thing, roll initiative.

[nedz]

At first I thought you meant just kill her.

Then I thought you meant grease her, as the spell (hey man, whatever gets you off)

Now I have no idea :smallbiggrin:

I meant the spell.
Though I was going for the pun.


Bonus to Escape Artist checks. Mind out of gutter, please.

Exactly !

[TrollCapAmerica]

I gotta back up an earlier point in this thread

What do you as the DM want from this scene anyways?

If your going to have the villain escape this is fine for dramatic tension but always remember that murderhobos tend to be extra motivated to kill him because he has a hostage rather than more hesitant. Dont be surprised if they act like men of action rather than negotiators

Magic is another kink that could be tossed into the plans.Not just thinks like "res the princess" but spells that change the situation entirely like Benign Transposition

[kaminiwa]

Does this count as a rule dysfunction? You can't effectively threaten to kill a helpless hostage with a knife at his or her throat unless you have special training in killing helpless hostages?

Nothing stops you from killing her, the PCs simply might win Initiative and stop you. That seems consistent with both the real world *and* fiction.

Admittedly, I'm a huge fan of scenes where the hero responds to a hostage situation with a head shot, or similar :)

[Icewraith]

The PCs confront an armed villain with a a helpless hostage within his reach.

The instant both sides are aware of each other, immediately roll initiative.

Assuming the villain is expecting the PCs, the villain always gets to act in the surprise round. Any PCs who beat the villain on initiative also get to act on the surprise round. This is the opportunity for a quick-thinking PC to toss off a gust of wind, solid fog, wall of force or headshot etc. to save the hostage before the villain can react.

Otherwise, the villain basically uses his free talking action to warn the PCs he'll kill the hostage if they try anything, and readies his action to kill the hostage if any of the PCs draws a weapon or casts a spell. If any of the PCs try anything, his iniative moves to just before that PC and he completes the CDG.

If something surprising happens (such as the kool-aid man bursting through the wall or the princess' bonds suddenly snapping and rendering her no longer helpless), reroll initiative for all involved parties.

[Aracor]

In this case, there's a simple solution as a DM...give the villain a circumstance bonus to their initiative. That's what they're for! And I'd say "knife to someone's throat" should count as a circumstance worth a bonus. That way, the PCs can still win, but warn them that he's going to be tough to beat.