I need an unbreakable lock

[Zero grim]

In my campaign I'm running the ultimate objective is to gather a set of keys that unlock a power that even the gods fear.

This object need to be unobtainable by mortal means without the keys, the locks destroy any tools used to pick them mechanically and that's not the bit I'm worried about, I need to make the case unopenable.

So far it has three layers of defence.

It is surrounded by a permanent field of force that is refreshed each round.
It is surrounded by a permanent Anti-Magic field that is refresh each round.
If has a trap of Disjunction built in to counter any attempt to dispel it and will disjunction any Mage who tries.


The lock is currently "guarded" by a college of mages who have tried for decades to open the lock, so if there is a way they would have found it by now, besides deities or epic magic is there something I've overlooked that could indeed break this lock.

[Malimar]

DC120 Escape Artist check to pass through the wall of force, Open Lock check with an arbitrarily high DC to pick them (I'm not sure how one would go about hardening one's tools/fingers against destruction, but there's likely to be a way).

Also, one or more wishes.

[Alex12]

In my campaign I'm running the ultimate objective is to gather a set of keys that unlock a power that even the gods fear.

This object need to be unobtainable by mortal means without the keys, the locks destroy any tools used to pick them mechanically and that's not the bit I'm worried about, I need to make the case unopenable.

So far it has three layers of defence.

It is surrounded by a permanent field of force that is refreshed each round.
It is surrounded by a permanent Anti-Magic field that is refresh each round.
If has a trap of Disjunction built in to counter any attempt to dispel it and will disjunction any Mage who tries.


The lock is currently "guarded" by a college of mages who have tried for decades to open the lock, so if there is a way they would have found it by now, besides deities or epic magic is there something I've overlooked that could indeed break this lock.

Sufficiently high Escape Artist check to wiggle through the Wall of Force, and the ability to use one of the Mountain Hammer line of maneuvers from ToB. (Mountain Hammer is a nonmagical strike that deals extra damage and ignores DR and hardness.) Since maneuvers are useable as often as you can refresh them, a determined character could potentially bust through.

For that matter, how is the Wall of Force working in an antimagic field?

[Maginomicon]

Really this is just a situation where it really can be up entirely to GM fiat. If the lock needs to be unopenable, nothing the players try will open it except the macguffins, the end.

It's a reasonable and plausible world creation tool that certain things are simply locked off. Imagine how the Metroidvania games would be if all Samus needed was that before coming into the campaign she get the right tool? (This is the point of her losing her abilities every game and the concept of sequence-breaking, honestly, but that's a moot point).

If you REALLY need something that's in the books that accomplishes this though, there might be something in one of the god-oriented books or dungeonscape or a dragon magazine that's a circumstance-specific lock.

[Scythal]

As of now, 1 incantatrix and 1 rogues could try to "pick" the lock. The incantatrix scibes 2 scrolls, 1 quickened desintegration and 1 disjunction.

The rogue (with no magic item appart from the 2 scrolls) use the quickened desintegration to remove the wall of force, then the disjunction to erase the anti magic filed, he gets disjunction in return, but well just don't care.

The incantatrix use shatter (or another desinterate), lock removed.

[Zero grim]

Thanks for the quick feedback, I was mainly after any obvious ways through, the escape artist/lock pick check is an epic level solution so I don't mind that working since nobody can achieve the check without cheese.

I just don't want my players to test it and turn round and say "why didn't the college just do blank?"

I try and use GM fiat as little as possible, if I don't bother giving explanations for why things work it takes a bit of the fun out of it.

the wall of force works for two reasons, Firstly walls of force are unaffected by anti-magic fields, secondly the field is shaped to not overlap the wall so the wall can be replaced without the field going down, the wall is inside the anti-magic field so disintegrating the wall of force has to come second, but yes that solution does work, unfortunately for the incantatrix were not in faerun and I don't use any of those books.

Wish is strong but in this case id say its expanding the capacity for wish and allow genie style wishing.

[Alex12]

Hm. Shadow Jaunt is an EX ability (since maneuvers are Ex abilities unless otherwise stated) and teleportation goes through walls of force.
A 4th-level swordsage could pull this off.

[One Step Two]

Dm Fiat is enough.

But if you want to give it actual stats, you don't need to be quite so elaborate, just a touch creative
The lock is made of Riverine (Stormwrack), and it is contained inside an Dead-Magic field which only extends 1mm from the sruface.

[holywhippet]

Disjunction only has a percentage chance based on caster level of breaking an anti-magic field (V doing it in the comic was heavily Deus Ex'd).

On top of that, you could rule the lock as being an artifact and that if the spell works on it a powerful being is summoned who wipes the floor with the caster and fixes the lock back up.

[NichG]

If you stick to objects that magic has very well-defined ways of interacting with, there'll be a way to open it. You have to go a bit more esoteric I think.

For example, have the entire contents be the subject of a massive Time Hop - the objects are outside of time, set to return only on specific dates at which point the Time Hop will be renewed within a round. To get at the contents, you have to be there when the special, randomly-chosen dates come around. Perhaps the box automatically disintegrates its contents a round before the thing comes back, to ensure that the artifact doesn't shunt and escape.

[Platymus Pus]

Have everything be made of adamantium and have like 7 feet of it along with magic.

[Raendyn]

Really this is just a situation where it really can be up entirely to GM fiat. If the lock needs to be unopenable, nothing the players try will open it except the macguffins, the end.


This. period.-

[Cicciograna]

Note: what follows is just a suggestion fueled by DM fiat, there are not actual rules for what I'm going to describe.

Have the lock exist onto an unknown number of "planar anomalies" set up by whoever has put the lock itself. The anomalies are not real demiplanes per se, and not even layers of the primary plane the PCs are on, as much as slightly out-of-phase sublevels of reality: Plane shift is useless to reach these anomalies since it will only lead to the "main" plane, so those wishing to access them must first of all discover existence, nature and number of the planar anomalies, and then research a custom spell.

Moreover, to open the lock the key must exist in every anomaly and be used at the same time in each anomaly: point is, there is no such key (apart from the original one, destroyed long time ago), and each copy subsequently made had the defect that it existed only on the sublayer it was crafted on. It requires a supernatural skill, some exotic material component and a great deal of work and power to craft another such key and to avoid it to be tied to a single sublayer.

[Qwertystop]

Disjunction only has a percentage chance based on caster level of breaking an anti-magic field (V doing it in the comic was heavily Deus Ex'd).
Not entirely: He was running off three epic-level casters on top of his - even if they don't stack, that's a minimum 21% chance, and probably a lot more.

If you stick to objects that magic has very well-defined ways of interacting with, there'll be a way to open it. You have to go a bit more esoteric I think.

For example, have the entire contents be the subject of a massive Time Hop - the objects are outside of time, set to return only on specific dates at which point the Time Hop will be renewed within a round. To get at the contents, you have to be there when the special, randomly-chosen dates come around. Perhaps the box automatically disintegrates its contents a round before the thing comes back, to ensure that the artifact doesn't shunt and escape.Ooh, good one.


Note: what follows is just a suggestion fueled by DM fiat, there are not actual rules for what I'm going to describe.

Have the lock exist onto an unknown number of "planar anomalies" set up by whoever has put the lock itself. The anomalies are not real demiplanes per se, and not even layers of the primary plane the PCs are on, as much as slightly out-of-phase sublevels of reality: Plane shift is useless to reach these anomalies since it will only lead to the "main" plane, so those wishing to access them must first of all discover existence, nature and number of the planar anomalies, and then research a custom spell.

Moreover, to open the lock the key must exist in every anomaly and be used at the same time in each anomaly: point is, there is no such key (apart from the original one, destroyed long time ago), and each copy subsequently made had the defect that it existed only on the sublayer it was crafted on. It requires a supernatural skill, some exotic material component and a great deal of work and power to craft another such key and to avoid it to be tied to a single sublayer.
As far as needing new spells: You really don't. That kind of research would be required to get the tuning fork required as a focus using Plane Shift. This has the same end effect except that you don't need to write up a new spell that's just plane-shift-but-only-for-these-specific-things.

[Chronos]

I'll second the suggestion to just DM fiat it as unbypassable. If you really want to justify it, say that it's a major artifact (which, from what you've said, it probably is anyway).

Now, theoretically, even an artifact can be de-magicked by Disjunction... But very few mages will be willing to do that, since it carries with it a risk of a fate worse than death. By the time you've invested so much in your spellcasting that you have ninth level spells, you really don't want to irreversibly and permanently lose all spellcasting ability.

[holywhippet]

What about making the entire lock/vault ethereal? Even if the spellcasters can discern the location via spells and hit the lock with force spells, it won't actually bring it into this plane of existence.

[molten_dragon]

In my campaign I'm running the ultimate objective is to gather a set of keys that unlock a power that even the gods fear.

This object need to be unobtainable by mortal means without the keys, the locks destroy any tools used to pick them mechanically and that's not the bit I'm worried about, I need to make the case unopenable.

So far it has three layers of defence.

It is surrounded by a permanent field of force that is refreshed each round.
It is surrounded by a permanent Anti-Magic field that is refresh each round.
If has a trap of Disjunction built in to counter any attempt to dispel it and will disjunction any Mage who tries.


The lock is currently "guarded" by a college of mages who have tried for decades to open the lock, so if there is a way they would have found it by now, besides deities or epic magic is there something I've overlooked that could indeed break this lock.

Here are ways I can come up with off the top of my head to get in there (and ways of countering them if I can think of an easy one).

1. Use some manner of dimensional travel or teleport effect to simply bypass the the anti-magic field and wall of force. If necessary change your size so you can fit inside. To counter, have the area inside the wall of force be covered in a permanent dimensional lock spell.

2. Have a high-level caster cast disjunction on it, which gets rid of the magic disjunction trap and the wall of force, and possibly the antimagic field. If necessary have him prepare a second disjunction so that he can use celerity to counter the disjunction trap when it goes off. Then keep using disjunction until the AMF is gone, and use whatever means are necessary to break the lock. You could counter this one by making the disjunction trap repeating, and it triggers any time someone gets within so far of the box, rather than just if someone tries to dispel the protections. Even so, I think the result would still probably be disjoined caster and disjoined box both.

3. Similar to 2, use metamagic reduction shenanigans to cast a transdimensional disjunction from the ethereal plane or plane of shadow. It'll affect the material plane, but the disjunction trap won't affect the person who cast it. You could stop this by having the disjunction trap be transdimensional too.

4. Use wish, miracle, or reality revision to simply dispense with the protections. There's no real way to stop this other than DM fiat, however if the gods fear the power in the box, none will likely grant a miracle to open it, and it would definitely be a greater use of wish or reality revision, so you'd be free to pervert the wish. A player who made a very careful and specific wish or reality revision might pull it off though.

5. Get your escape artist high enough that you can make the DC 120 check to squeeze through a wall of force. Can't really think of a good way around this one. But I also can't think of an easy way to reliably make a DC 120 escape artist check without using magic or severe cheese pre-epic, so it's likely not a problem.

6. Have a rogue/artificer/whatever find and disarm the disjunction trap (since it would need to be outside the wall of force and AMF to have line of effect). At that point, dispose of the AMF then destroy the wall of force. This could be prevented by making the DC to disarm it ridiculously high.

7. Similar to 6, if the DC to disarm it is too high, have an artificer use his retain essence ability to suck the XP out of the disjunction trap and destroy it that way. This I honestly can't think of a good way to prevent.

That's all the ways I can think of to get around it for now. Some level of DM fiat will likely be required, since there isn't anything in RAW that can't be undone by something else in RAW, but this should hopefully help you patch the obvious holes.

[nedz]

Use either a Trap Haunt or a Fiend of Possession.

If someone manages to pick the lock then 'click' it gets re-locked immediately.
The only way through is to take out the guardian, but it's existence can be hidden through all manner of means. Deception and Abjuration are the watchwords here — so keep your current set up if only on that basis.

Trap Haunt is an undead template from Dragon 321 p32.
FoP is a PrC from FF.

[pwykersotz]

A few less complex suggestions:

The box was Wished shut with an arbitrarily high amount of exp used (say 1,000,000 if you need a set number). No one can crack it, because no one can pony up the necessary exp (or is willing to, even if they did discover it).

Make the box a sentient item with 20 levels of divinity.

Make it a chest where the key you use determines the location it opens to. The item could actually be stored deep in Pandemonium.

[ben-zayb]

Of course, I second the plain and simple DM fiat, but may I suggest a different paradigm for fluff? (which sort of reminds of a certain awesome web comic)

What if the lock is not merely a simple obstruction between the untold powers and the foolish ones who seek it? What if, the lock is the way?

True, weak magical attempts won't even budge the lock. But what if, let's say, some sick powerful magic is applied? The lock might actually just break... and with it goes away the only method to possibly access the powers within. Simply put, the only way to access what's inside is by using the proper keys. (this sort of reminds me of that Dan Brown book too)

It adds another dimension/element to possibly explore, which on one hand might be an opportunity to introduce other plot elements and characters who wants the lock destroyed, but on the other hand might needlessly complicate the situation

[Serin]

I'm not sure if I might be misunderstanding the point here as to why some of these suggestions are so complicated. I assume it's because you guys are talking about 3.5.

Anyway - if the point is just to have a lock that is can't be defeated except by your macguffins then might I suggest:

Page 339 of Pathfinder's Ultimate Equipment - Major Artifacts
(Also on the SRD if you dont have the books)

PERFECTION’S KEY SLOT NONE
AURA strong transmutation CL 16th WEIGHT 1/2 lb.
This platinum key can open nearly any lock or door with a mere
touch. With a touch of the key, a lock of DC 40 or lower unlocks.
When a creature holding the key attempts to break down a
door with a break (locked) DC of 28 or lower, the door is broken
and opened. In all other cases it grants the creature possessing
Perfection’s Key a +10 bonus on Disable Device checks to pick
locks, and a +10 bonus on attempts to break down doors.
DESTRUCTION
Somewhere in the planes there is said to be an Impossible
Lock—a mechanism so perfect that only this key can thwart it. If
Perfection’s Key is inserted into the Impossible Lock, the key is
destroyed, but unlocks the Impossible Lock.

It's only a minor tweak to use the info under the destruction tag as your primary goal. They find or hear about the Impossible Lock first then they have to go track down Perfection's Key. It's tantamount to using DM fiat to say "only this key can open this lock and nothing else." Except it actually has rules and is legit and not DM fiat.

[Slipperychicken]

There are times when DM Fiat is an appropriate solution, and I think this is one of them. You could just say it was a custom epic artifact which whose creation required divine ranks.

EDIT: Yeah, it does look more legit when there's flavor text for it. If I was a player and encountered this in game, and it was clearly a plot thing, I'd be completely cool with it. Artifacts are probably the most frequently homebrewed/custom-made things in the whole game.

[atomicwaffle]

think of the physical manifestation of the box and lock as an uber-charged Leomund's Secret Chest spell that has already been cast. The only way to complete the spell is to use the key, then the box (instead of being stored on the material plane) is summoned from say...the Abyss.

This way even if they somehow crack into the box it appears as a normal non-magical empty box. It's useless until you complete casting the spell (using the key to open it). Normally the focus is a miniature, but in this case it's life sized.

[Thanatosia]

Really this is just a situation where it really can be up entirely to GM fiat. If the lock needs to be unopenable, nothing the players try will open it except the macguffins, the end.
I'm normally opposed to such things because it's unrealistic and unfair to the players, but when the lock in question is of 'cosmic' signficance where it was shaped by >Diety powers to keep even dieties locked out, then at that level DM Fiat that it's just immune to everything but the mcguffins is pretty acceptable with the only detail needed to explain it's power is that it was crafted by something more powerful then a God. Basically it's a super artifact, and artifacts break rules.

[Zomg Zombies]

Idea off the top of my head:
a room shaped like the inside of an isodecahedron, in the center is the chest/lock, at each of the 20 corners is an anti-magic field, resting around the chest/lock is an energy transference field keyed to cast an epic arcane lock on the chest/lock; wall of force squeezed in between the AMFs and the ETF optional.

*note: yeah for the ETF to cast an epic spell, it'd have to be an epic version too

If you wanted justification to make squeezing through a wall of force harder, the players could discover a second shadow weave wall occupying the space too; since the shadow weave is described as being in the spaces the weave isn't...

[Mutazoia]

Ok first of all...didn't read much of the replies as the answer is simple.

The God's designed this lock. The ability to break it is simply beyond mortal means. It's not GM fiat, it's simply that that God's can and did think of anything mortal's could do/use/try to brake the lock and foiled it ahead of time. The door and the lock are major artifacts and the ONLY way to open them are with said keys.

If you need more more reasons to say "that doesn't work":


The lock/door and the chamber it protects is subject to a permenant anti-magic field. Only the key's will function here.
The door/lock everybody's currently exhausting them-selves on is actually a decoy. Location spells to locate the real door were hijacked by the Gods to point here instead.
Not only is the door/lock a decoy, but the actual vault isn't even on the planet. The Gods stashed it on the moon/in a pocket dimension
Tiny constructs inside the lock constantly reset things/destroy picks/repair damage instantly (think divinely created nano-bots)


Other possible defenses:


The chamber beyond (not the actual vault) is completely filled with a giant Gelatenous Cube. Since it's inside a anti-magic zone killing it is going to be damned hard. (The chamber, hence the cube, is bigger than all exits out, so the cube can't leave once the door is open)
One area infront of the door is the AOE of a Reverse Gravity spell. The "roof" there is an illusion hiding a portal to the elemental plane of fire.
Every X number of days the God's cause a massive cave in, forcing everybody to retreat and dig the door out again.


Now the 200lb gorilla in the room is "Why?"


Why would the Gods, who fear this power so much, put it anywhere a mortal could access it?
Why would the God's make a door to this power that could opened, or why is there a door at all?
Why does this power even exist? If the God's created it, Why?
If the God's fear this power so much, why aren't they simply striking everybody who tries to get to it dead as a door nail?


I know a quest to find a power greater than the God's themselves sounds like an awesome epic quest (and it is) but the stark reality is that it's not bloody likely, even in a high fantasy setting. I can't imagine a group of Gods stupid enough to say "Well here's this super duper powerful thing that could end our existence in an instant. Let's just stuff it under this rock and hope nobody find's it."

If they can't destroy it, and they can't move it, they're most likely smart enough to drop a mountain or two on top of it, bury it with no way to get to it, and turn the countryside and atmosphere surrounding it into such an irradiated hostile magic dead mess that even the God's themselves wouldn't last 2 seconds there and then mount a permanent divine watch over it and instantly disintegrate any one or any thing that even thought about the thing.

[molten_dragon]

Ok first of all...didn't read much of the replies as the answer is simple.

You should have since a lot of this got covered already.


The God's designed this lock. The ability to break it is simply beyond mortal means. It's not GM fiat, it's simply that that God's can and did think of anything mortal's could do/use/try to brake the lock and foiled it ahead of time.

That's the definition of DM fiat, which the OP stated he only wants to use as a last resort.


The door and the lock are major artifacts and the ONLY way to open them are with said keys.

Or succeed on an approximately 20% chance roll to destroy the artifact with Disjunction. Which I'm sure the mage's college will attempt to do.



The lock/door and the chamber it protects is subject to a permenant anti-magic field. Only the key's will function here.

Again, the solution is Disjunction (and the OP already mentioned this).


The door/lock everybody's currently exhausting them-selves on is actually a decoy. Location spells to locate the real door were hijacked by the Gods to point here instead.
Not only is the door/lock a decoy, but the actual vault isn't even on the planet. The Gods stashed it on the moon/in a pocket dimension

These are things that possibly help, but it sounds like the DM wants the people in his game world to know where the thing is.


Tiny constructs inside the lock constantly reset things/destroy picks/repair damage instantly (think divinely created nano-bots)

Again, this basically boils down to DM fiat, since there are no rules for creating nanobots in D&D.


The chamber beyond (not the actual vault) is completely filled with a giant Gelatenous Cube. Since it's inside a anti-magic zone killing it is going to be damned hard. (The chamber, hence the cube, is bigger than all exits out, so the cube can't leave once the door is open)

Disjunction to get rid of the AMF, then kill the cube in whatever manner you need to.


One area infront of the door is the AOE of a Reverse Gravity spell. The "roof" there is an illusion hiding a portal to the elemental plane of fire.

Would really only work once, and then everyone would just know not to step in the reverse gravity area (or to fly through it).


Every X number of days the God's cause a massive cave in, forcing everybody to retreat and dig the door out again.

Summoned critters with a burrow speed could clear the room back out in a few minutes at most.

[Mutazoia]

That's the definition of DM fiat, which the OP stated he only wants to use as a last resort.

Well if you DON'T use GM fiat then there's no such thing as an unbreakable lock, by RAW. Case in point your next comments


Or succeed on an approximately 20% chance roll to destroy the artifact with Disjunction. Which I'm sure the mage's college will attempt to do.


Again, the solution is Disjunction (and the OP already mentioned this).

Honestly your giving God's too little credit. They created the universe, and they can't create a simple lock that's mortal proof and can ONLY be opened by a specific set of keys? I highly doubt that. Your thinking of normal artifacts created by mortals here. Not one's created by the God's themselves, one's that no mortal would ever have a chance of scratching, let alone successfully using Disjunction on.


These are things that possibly help, but it sounds like the DM wants the people in his game world to know where the thing is.

They can find out. Eventually. After messing with the fake door and the army of wizards for a while. And when they do find the right one, they'll be the only one's there.


Again, this basically boils down to DM fiat, since there are no rules for creating nanobots in D&D.

There are rules for creating constructs. There's nothing that says a God can't create one as small as he want's to. Hell the lock itself could be a construct and be constantly healing it self.



Disjunction to get rid of the AMF, then kill the cube in whatever manner you need to.

If it's a natural AMF rather than a magically created one then Nope. You can't dispel something that's not dispel-able. This would mean that the God's put up a security system that even another GOD couldn't by pass which is what I'm assuming any reasonably intelligent immortal with a great love of his own life would do....too many Loki-like deities to take any chances.



Would really only work once, and then everyone would just know not to step in the reverse gravity area (or to fly through it).

If it's the entire hallway in front of the door there's no going around it. If you land to mess with the lock, then the fly spell ends and up you go.



Summoned critters with a burrow speed could clear the room back out in a few minutes at most.

Assuming it's a small cave in and not like a couple of miles of stone (honestly why would the God's put this right on the surface), and you summon HUGE creatures able to burrow a space big enough for all these people to fit in with out getting in each other's way (and assuming that for some reason the buried magical traps and such either cease to function or simply don't work on summoned creatures), and assuming there's a place to put all the excavated stone every other day, sure. But the object here is to keep interrupting the pesky mortals who are fooling with the lock. If the cave in's happen at random intervals, just getting to the lock long enough to look at it could be nearly impossible. Plus there is a difference between burrowing a tunnel and clearing out a cave in. Burrowing is simply digging out a new tunnel. Clearing out a cave in requires slow, careful work or the whole thing could shift and cave in again. Why do you think it's such a slow pain in the arse to rescue miners trapped by cave in's?

[IncoherentEssay]

How about:
The box is a form of nondimensional space: the contents are not in the box but the space it accesses. As nondimensional spaces are not planes, they are inaccessable without activating the box (if i'm mistaken here, the easy fix is making the nondimensional space just big enough to hold it's contents, leaving no room for intruders).
So while it might be possible to bypass the box, it doesn't really accomplish anything. You have to open it normally to activate it. The locks are similarly only partially there and nonfunctional, as key parts were shunted outside of time using Time Hop. Possibly so that there are multiple combinations that cannot exist simultaneously due to space constraints, phasing in and out each in turn. Some of the parts of these alternating locks are mismatched: this is the part that the keys sort out, changing the Time Hop rotation into the functioning locks instead of the mismatched jumble it normally is.
All combinations need to be opened to open the lock, so dispelling/disjunctioning the stagerred Time Hop rotation is about the dumbest thing you could do as it would wreck the lock (the lock is probably made of that self-repairing metal i can't recall the name of, so a simple dispel will only foul it up temporarily before the rotation resumes and the lock pieces reform during their "phased in" time) or leave parts of it completely unaccessable (lost outside of time).

So bypassing the box & locks accomplishes nothing, what about Open Lock & equilavents then? Easy, Open Lock has a clause* where you need an appropriate tool to even attempt the check.
In this case, the tools would need to be capable of mimicking both the Time Hop unscrambling effect of the real keys as well as matching the actual shape of the lock.
So you'd need to research and build an appropriate magic item to even attempt the check. Similarly, Knock is useless until the lock is reassembled by the key (real or counterfeit).


*it's in the PHB, "The effort requires at least a simple tool of the appropriate sort ([examples])." A time-displaced lock is undoubtably a puzzle lock, and the minimum simple tool for the job can reasonably be required to be an item that can gather & unscramble the pieces necessary for the lock to function.

[Piggy Knowles]

Instead of an antimagic field that can be dispelled or suppressed, why not make the lock in a dead magic zone? There could be some good fluff here - the lock is forged from metal that comes from an entire dead magic plane, and only the intercession of deities allowed it to be plane shifted out of that dead plane to forge this lock.

Mountain Hammer is still an issue. Some sort of effect that makes weapons shatter when they strike it could be a solution. A retributive impact sort of deal could be nice - if they mountain hammer the lock, dealing X damage that ignores hardness, the weapon they use in turn takes X damage ignoring hardness. If they choose to use their own fists... well, that's going to be painful. Plus, they'll need to figure out a way to get through the force effects.

[molten_dragon]

Well if you DON'T use GM fiat then there's no such thing as an unbreakable lock, by RAW. Case in point your next comments

Yes, that's been pointed out several times. Some level of GM fiat is necessary, but the OP wants to keep it to a minimum, hence why we're all trying to help point out ways people could break into an unbreakable lock, so he can try to patch those holes as best he can with solutions that aren't GM fiat.


Honestly your giving God's too little credit. They created the universe, and they can't create a simple lock that's mortal proof and can ONLY be opened by a specific set of keys? I highly doubt that. Your thinking of normal artifacts created by mortals here. Not one's created by the God's themselves, one's that no mortal would ever have a chance of scratching, let alone successfully using Disjunction on.

You're of course welcome to make that ruling, but it's a houserule, not RAW. RAW does not distinguish who made an artifact, it simply says disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying one. So we're basically back to GM fiat.


There are rules for creating constructs. There's nothing that says a God can't create one as small as he want's to. Hell the lock itself could be a construct and be constantly healing it self.

Then I refer you back to disjunction, which would render the constructs non-magical. Or simply kill them. If they're constructs, they have HP, and they can die.


If it's a natural AMF rather than a magically created one then Nope. You can't dispel something that's not dispel-able. This would mean that the God's put up a security system that even another GOD couldn't by pass which is what I'm assuming any reasonably intelligent immortal with a great love of his own life would do....too many Loki-like deities to take any chances.

There is no such thing (that I'm aware of at least) as a naturally occurring AMF. There are dead magic zones, which are similar, and those can be healed with a miracle or wish, allowing magic to function again. They're also Faerun-specific.


If it's the entire hallway in front of the door there's no going around it. If you land to mess with the lock, then the fly spell ends and up you go.

Then you simply send in a creature that can fly to deal with it. Or someone who has transformed into something that can fly. Then it doesn't matter. If it's natural flight, it can't be gotten rid of, and if you're expecting the AMF to dispel the ability to fly, then I've already covered that.


Assuming it's a small cave in and not like a couple of miles of stone (honestly why would the God's put this right on the surface), and you summon HUGE creatures able to burrow a space big enough for all these people to fit in with out getting in each other's way (and assuming that for some reason the buried magical traps and such either cease to function or simply don't work on summoned creatures), and assuming there's a place to put all the excavated stone every other day, sure. But the object here is to keep interrupting the pesky mortals who are fooling with the lock. If the cave in's happen at random intervals, just getting to the lock long enough to look at it could be nearly impossible. Plus there is a difference between burrowing a tunnel and clearing out a cave in. Burrowing is simply digging out a new tunnel. Clearing out a cave in requires slow, careful work or the whole thing could shift and cave in again. Why do you think it's such a slow pain in the arse to rescue miners trapped by cave in's?

Okay, then use the simple solution and just have whoever is working on it cast earth glide (or shapechange into an earth elemental), persisted if necessary through any one of a number of methods of reducing metamagic costs, and ignore the cave-ins.

[molten_dragon]

How about:
The box is a form of nondimensional space: the contents are not in the box but the space it accesses. As nondimensional spaces are not planes, they are inaccessable without activating the box (if i'm mistaken here, the easy fix is making the nondimensional space just big enough to hold it's contents, leaving no room for intruders).
So while it might be possible to bypass the box, it doesn't really accomplish anything. You have to open it normally to activate it. The locks are similarly only partially there and nonfunctional, as key parts were shunted outside of time using Time Hop. Possibly so that there are multiple combinations that cannot exist simultaneously due to space constraints, phasing in and out each in turn. Some of the parts of these alternating locks are mismatched: this is the part that the keys sort out, changing the Time Hop rotation into the functioning locks instead of the mismatched jumble it normally is.
All combinations need to be opened to open the lock, so dispelling/disjunctioning the stagerred Time Hop rotation is about the dumbest thing you could do as it would wreck the lock (the lock is probably made of that self-repairing metal i can't recall the name of, so a simple dispel will only foul it up temporarily before the rotation resumes and the lock pieces reform during their "phased in" time) or leave parts of it completely unaccessable (lost outside of time).

So bypassing the box & locks accomplishes nothing, what about Open Lock & equilavents then? Easy, Open Lock has a clause* where you need an appropriate tool to even attempt the check.
In this case, the tools would need to be capable of mimicking both the Time Hop unscrambling effect of the real keys as well as matching the actual shape of the lock.
So you'd need to research and build an appropriate magic item to even attempt the check. Similarly, Knock is useless until the lock is reassembled by the key (real or counterfeit).


*it's in the PHB, "The effort requires at least a simple tool of the appropriate sort ([examples])." A time-displaced lock is undoubtably a puzzle lock, and the minimum simple tool for the job can reasonably be required to be an item that can gather & unscramble the pieces necessary for the lock to function.

This is probably the best solution yet. The only way I can think of to get around it is a bit of a stretch. Extradimensional storage spaces can get weird when you put one inside another, so there's a possibility you could put the chest inside a portable hole or something, and it would get sucked through a rift to the astral plane, where people could start hunting for it again. It depends on whether you think this applies to all extradimensional storage space, or is a specific reaction of a portable hole with a bag of holding. I think rope trick mentions that bringing extradimensional storage inside it is risky, but doesn't elaborate.

Edit: I just realized the pitfall with this approach. Use Magic Device. Specifically the DC 25 check to activate an item blindly. You wouldn't need the keys, you'd just need to fiddle with it until it opened.

[IncoherentEssay]

Activate Blindly specifies "activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item etc." Since they require a separate item to activate, the locks (requiring the keys) and the box (requiring the locks) cannot be activated blindly.

As for the dimensional scramble: make the entire thing epically large so that it cannot fit in extra/nondimensional containers to negate the astral plane scavenger hunt. I'm thinking of a gigantic circular vault door sunk into a mountaintop or something equilavently impossible to stuff into a Bag of Holding.

[molten_dragon]

Activate Blindly specifies "activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item etc." Since they require a separate item to activate, the locks (requiring the keys) and the box (requiring the locks) cannot be activated blindly.

That's pretty shaky logic.

Here's the text for UMD

Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it.

Having to open the locks to activate the box certainly sounds like a special action to me. UMD would simply let you ignore that and fake it. Or, likewise, you could use UMD on the locks to activate them without the normal activation action of inserting the key.

[IncoherentEssay]

Activate Blindly

Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.


Imo, the "That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate." is pretty clearly indicating that this is for wands, staves and similar held/worn activateable items. Would you let a character fire a magical "firearm" without any ammunition by using activate blindly? Without a key (counterfeit/real) they *cannot* perform the action to activate it, even if they theoretically could luck into it.
I would consider Activate Blindly/UMD a valid substitute for Open Lock if the character had a counterfeit key on had.

Of course, there's also the fact that the lock mechanism is still scrambled in time until restored by a key, so the would-be thief would have to realise that the lock they are trying to fiddle with needs to be reassembled first instead of going directly for Open Sesame :smalltongue:.

But yeah, i don't know of anything that would rule out Activate Blindly entirely through RAW.
Though since that can be resolved through a houserule (clarifying/modifying what Activate Blindly applies to) instead of pulling an uncrackable lock out of the Fiat Dimension, i'd call that a success.

[Telonius]

Given all of that stuff ... the lock needs to be able to withstand a Sphere of Annihilation. The Sphere would be able to get through the AMF (which doesn't affect artifacts) and is immune to disjunction based on its description. The only check on it there is the Force effect. I'm not 100% certain what the interaction between the sphere and a Force effect would be, since the sphere annihilates matter, and force is, well, force. But it could still destroy the trap that creates the force effect.

[Gavinfoxx]

So how does it get past wish teleporting inside of the vault?

[IncoherentEssay]

Sphere of Annihilation:
Plan A would be not including a sphere of annihilation in the campaing :p.
Plan B would be embedding the lock in the box/vaultdoor/whatever such that the sphere would damage the door in the process, rendering it nonfunctional and the contents inaccessible (given that they are not in the box but in a nondimensional space it accesses, which it cannot do if broken).

Of course, at this point there is the issue of "what if someone wants the contents to be permanently gone?". Probably best solved by making the contents something no one wants indefinitely unavailable. This is something for the OP to solve: locks can be broken and methods of access destroyed so one way or another the "just smash it" solution has to be undesirable.
Though with a mage college obsessed with solving the mystery of the box, i'd say the [sealed forever] solution is unlikely to be taken and thus safe to leave in as the weak point. So the "lock" is a method of access that has to be activated rather than a barrier to be overcome.

Wish -Transport Travelers:
It's not a vault, it's a nondimensional space with exactly enough space for the contents*. Even if nondimensional (bag of holding interior space) space is something you can Wish yourself into, you have no room to coexist there with the contents. That'll end well :smalltongue:.


*i have no idea what those are, the OP only gave a nonspecific "power that even gods fear" description. It might be useful to know what exactly we are trying to stash away though.

[Thiyr]

While it seems like this has been moved past, I would like to point out a detail that is normally so useless as to be silly. Riverine is normally remembered as "stuff made from walls of force". But it does have, sammich'd between that, extremely high pressure water. While requiring a small amount of fiat, that would be a believable means of stopping the epic escape artist through walls of force thing. Either they can't EA through the high pressure water, or they try and get themselves heavily damaged or killed, as they're essentially trying to squeeze through an active water saw. Just a thought.


EDIT: Or they just can't go through at all, as it isn't a wall of force, it is something that acts like one. but that's more playing the technicality game, and is kinda shaky to be honest.

[molten_dragon]

Wish -Transport Travelers:
It's not a vault, it's a nondimensional space with exactly enough space for the contents*. Even if nondimensional (bag of holding interior space) space is something you can Wish yourself into, you have no room to coexist there with the contents. That'll end well :smalltongue:.

You could make yourself incorporeal before you wished yourself in there.

[molten_dragon]

Of course, there's also the fact that the lock mechanism is still scrambled in time until restored by a key, so the would-be thief would have to realise that the lock they are trying to fiddle with needs to be reassembled first instead of going directly for Open Sesame :smalltongue:.

Yeah, but that whole time hopped scrambled lock thing is pretty shaky logic itself. Conceivably trial and error could get it put back together, since you'd have to have some sort of resetting trap of time hop or something on the various pieces, so someone could just take the lock apart, wait for the missing pieces to show back up (since time hop is pretty short duration), disable the traps that make them keep time-hopping, and then reassemble the working lock, and unlock it).


But yeah, i don't know of anything that would rule out Activate Blindly entirely through RAW.
Though since that can be resolved through a houserule (clarifying/modifying what Activate Blindly applies to) instead of pulling an uncrackable lock out of the Fiat Dimension, i'd call that a success.

Like I said, this is probably the best idea I've seen yet for this. Without some level of DM fiat, what the OP wants is impossible. There is nothing which can be made in D&D via RAW that cannot be unmade via RAW. So all we can do is reduce the fiat to as little as necessary.

[molten_dragon]

Here's another good idea for guarding it that I thought of.

Have it be inside a demiplane that the gods created via Genesis. They've also imbued some sort of guardian creature with a portion of their divine power (i.e. it has a single divine rank) and it is the sole ruler of the demiplane inside.

The only way into the demiplane is through a single gate that exists somewhere (maybe people know, maybe they don't). Anyone can activate the gate, but in order to do it successfully, you must be carrying the MacGuffin. This is because the guardian can detect whether the person activating the gate carries the MacGuffin (should be easy with divine abilities and spellcasting) and if they aren't, he doesn't allow the gate to open as per the text in the gate spell.


Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire.

He will also ban any other gates or other methods of interplanar travel someone uses to try to access the demiplane.

The only bit of fiat here is whether or not the deity who rules a planar realm can ban other kinds of interplanar travel such as plane shift, but if they can ban a gate opening, it's not much of a stretch to imagine they can do that as well.

[Bromidrosis]

(V doing it in the comic was heavily Deus Ex'd).

Just a small point on that: I thought the same at first, until I remembered the comment made during the deal about how V would earn no xp because his effective caster level would be too high. Think about it this way: he has his own CL, plus the CLs of 3 epic level casters, meaning he'd have a CL of >50 (calculating his CL like CR for gestalt characters, as a quadruple gestalt rather than just stacking their levels which would give a result of around 80). So figuring that it isn't a tremendous Deus Ex for V to have successfully destroyed the antimagic field.

[Psyren]

You could make yourself incorporeal before you wished yourself in there.

That, and in any case, the size of the vault/enclosure is a "local condition."

OP should just use fiat because any RAW lock can either be opened or bypassed entirely.

[IncoherentEssay]

On incorporeality + Wish:
Well, assuming that nondimensional space differentiates between corporeal and incorporeal objects instead of simply counting volume cap, that whatever thing is being stored is large enough to share space with and that said object does not already occupy 'incorporeal space' through being a force/ghost touch effect, the obvious solution is to pour in an equal volume of incorporeal concrete/equilavent :smalltongue:.
Wish travel is a trump card in cases where the location being defended is supposed to be habitable, this isn't one of those cases.


Demiplane is a solid idea as well, especially with the dead magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic) trait:


Dead Magic

These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
With the clause against travel magic and the divine travel-veto, that'd be two 'absolute no's vs. Wish's one.


That, and in any case, the size of the vault/enclosure is a "local condition."

OP should just use fiat because any RAW lock can either be opened or bypassed entirely.

The point wasn't that you couldn't Wish yourself there. The point was that it would end badly for the caster (most likely through some form of very literal critical existence failure). Wish makes no claims of safe arrival, so wishing your way into unsurvivable conditions ends predictably.
As a nondimensional space*, assuming the storage mimics a Bag Of Holding it collapses in on itself from the attempt and the contents are lost (or possibly just the intruder, "a power even the gods fear" would imply some seriously wimpy gods if it went poof from a puny dimensional mishap :smalltongue:.)

*i'm not even sure if nondimensional space has enough of 'local conditions' to register as a destination for Wish. Nondimensional space is always listed as a volume (basically an amorphous blob of storage space in a magic bag/backbag). Extradimensional space (such as a Portable Hole, Rope Trick and Magnificient Mansion) is the one that has 'normal' defined dimensions, existing as a "room outside real space".

[Psyren]

On incorporeality + Wish:
Well, assuming that nondimensional space differentiates between corporeal and incorporeal objects instead of simply counting volume cap

How would you do that by RAW?



the obvious solution is to pour in an equal volume of incorporeal concrete/equilavent :smalltongue:.

That does nothing, because incorporeal objects don't hinder incorporeal creatures any more than corporeal objects do. Not to mention, I don't know how you'd make "incorporeal concrete" by RAW anyway.



Wish travel is a trump card in cases where the location being defended is supposed to be habitable, this isn't one of those cases.

You can make it so the location is difficult to survive in after they get there (and even that can be circumvented (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/adaptBody.htm)) but that won't stop them from getting there in the first place.



Demiplane is a solid idea as well, especially with the dead magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic) trait:
With the clause against travel magic and the divine travel-veto, that'd be two 'absolute no's vs. Wish's one.

These fail as well:

1) Wish transport is not a [teleportation] effect, so that clause does not actually apply to it.
2) Wish specifically ignores "local conditions" and any traits you apply to a demiplane would count as a local condition by definition. Therefore Wish's specific clause would trump the general rules of the Dead Magic trait.

[IncoherentEssay]

How would you do that by RAW?
To clarify, the three "assuming X" were more specifically "assuming the rules on this go in favor of incorporeal+Wish".
If the nondimensional space counts volume regardless of it's corporeal/incorporeal status, the wisher goes poof.
If the stored object is significantly smaller than the caster, the nondimensional space is too small to survive in, and the wisher goes poof.
If the stored object is a force effect/equilavent, the incorporeal caster can't share space with, and the wisher goes poof.
Assuming all of those check out in favor of the would-be intruder, then as part of the preparations for the storage space you "fill" the space in a way that prevents incorporeal creatures from occupying it. Wisher goes poof.


That does nothing, because incorporeal objects don't hinder incorporeal creatures any more than corporeal objects do. Not to mention, I don't know how you'd make "incorporeal concrete" by RAW anyway.

That would be what the :P & /equilavent are there for: force effects and some other miscellaneous things bar incorporeal creatures from occupying a location.
I am 99% sure that some method of applying that to the storage exists, the simplest of which would be making the object being stored a force/ghost touch effect in some way. I just can't be arsed to go bookdiving for the specifics at the moment, as i'd like to get some painting done :smalltongue:.

Besides, i have no idea what we are squirreling away. The Original Poster knows but has not revealed it yet. I can't really go into specifics with what we know.

As for Adapt Body, there is zero mention of 'can exist where there is no space'. Pretty much nothing does that, expecially with nondimensional* space's overloaded -> gone forever clause. There is no RAW method to trump Wish´-port, but plenty to make it an inadvisable course of action (note that i severely dislike Gotcha-DMing and would remind a player about to splatter their character about the (fairly high) possibility that they might be Wishing themselves to a grave. A spellcraft check would give them an idea of the specifics).

The point is to provide a fiatless containment method for the OP that holds up against pre-epic wizardry. Pointing out holes in the attempt is helpful, offering solutions to those holes would be more so :smallwink:.
I'd assume the broken mess that is Epic Spellcasting could do some of that, but i'm not familiar with it.

*bag of holding template. Some custom magic item creation is pretty much mandatory for making the container, so basing it on an existing thing is the best way to about making an as-fiat-free-as-possible desing.

[Psyren]

The point is to provide a fiatless containment method for the OP that holds up against pre-epic wizardry. Pointing out holes in the attempt is helpful, offering solutions to those holes would be more so :smallwink:.

I know what the point is, and I'm telling you that it's not possible without fiat. The energy being expended on so-called "RAW solutions" that ultimately go nowhere could be easily allocated down more productive avenues by handwaving this, inventing an artifact whose ability is "you can't get in here - no not even by doing that," or simply making the arcanist college that has been trying to get in all this time not have access to Wish and other high-level effects. The players likely don't either after all.

In short, my answer to the players asking "Why didn't the college do X" would either be to say "they're not powerful enough" or "good question - perhaps there's a mystery to solve there."

[Feilith]

You can make it unbreakable with out consequence. The artifact is stored within a bag of holding inside of a magically sealed box. The boxes lock can not be picked by mundane means and can only be opened with the key. If the box's magical component is dispelled the bad of holding is ruptured and the artifact is lost forever.

Now if losing the artifact forever will ruin the plot, then make the box be at the base of pandemonium, and the "keys" are parts of a scroll of an epic spell created by an epic level wizard of arbitrarily high level that brings the box to you. Pandemonium will keep anyone away but there might be a way to do it for your PCs

[Psyren]

If the box's magical component is dispelled the bag of holding is ruptured and the artifact is lost forever.

How would dispelling the box's arcane lock rupture the bag though?

[erikun]

I haven't bother to read through the whole thread, but if you don't want your PCs (or the NPCs) to get through the door into the vault without the keys, then why put the vault behind the door?

Think of it this way: The lock and the door are not keeping people out of the vault. The lock and the door are part of a complex ritual which will, once joined, create a point that the vault is attracted to.

Spellcasters are unable to use the lock and the door as a method to track down the vault because there is no connection between the two - completing the ritual (by placing the correct key in the lock) produces an [X] which attracts the vault. The NPCs are unable to do it themselves because they don't know how it works, and don't have the keys to analyze the full ritual. They have a good idea of what will happen (because they have gone past the door, and realize that the vault isn't there now) but don't have what they need to replicate it.

[molten_dragon]

I know what the point is, and I'm telling you that it's not possible without fiat.

We know that, but the DM specified that he wanted fiat kept to a minimum. We're attempting to actually do what he asked through suggesting the best RAW ways we can to create an unbreakable lock, and picking apart other people's ideas for holes.

That's a lot more helpful than just saying "Well, since some level of fiat is unavoidable, just fiat the whole thing".

[Arbitrarity]

I'll second the suggestion to just DM fiat it as unbypassable. If you really want to justify it, say that it's a major artifact (which, from what you've said, it probably is anyway).

Now, theoretically, even an artifact can be de-magicked by Disjunction... But very few mages will be willing to do that, since it carries with it a risk of a fate worse than death. By the time you've invested so much in your spellcasting that you have ninth level spells, you really don't want to irreversibly and permanently lose all spellcasting ability.

Disjoining an artifact usually isn't that huge a problem, but aiming to disjoin it is, as you say, somewhat risky. Thankfully, you can mitigate the risk a lot. You'd want to have Battle Hymn running, and possibly Alter Fortune prepared. Mantle/Amulet of second chances are probably overkill (1/160000 if you have one of them plus Battle Hymn and Alter Fortune). There are also some Cleric buffs that can help, notably Benediction. Personally, I think 1/8000 is sufficient for me.

[Psyren]

That's a lot more helpful than just saying "Well, since some level of fiat is unavoidable, just fiat the whole thing".

Is it? Often the most straightforward approach to a problem can actually be the least effective one, which is why lateral thinking is so often prized. I'm aware of what the OP asked for initially, but he actually spelled out the underlying issue here:



I just don't want my players to test it and turn round and say "why didn't the college just do blank?"

i.e. the suspension of disbelief of his players. I chose to attack that core issue rather than the more surface-level approach of minimal-fiat-locks; a custom artifact or a Wish-less arcane college may not be RAW, but they aren't unbelievable either. After all, to make a plot, you generally have to deviate from RAW at some point, and artifacts or limiting access to certain spells are both feasible ways to do that.

[molten_dragon]

Is it? Often the most straightforward approach to a problem can actually be the least effective one, which is why lateral thinking is so often prized. I'm aware of what the OP asked for initially, but he actually spelled out the underlying issue here:

I guess it depends on what you consider helpful, doing the thing the OP asked for, or assuming that you know better than him what he actually wanted.

[Psyren]

I guess it depends on what you consider helpful, doing the thing the OP asked for, or assuming that you know better than him what he actually wanted.

"Doing what he asked for" has multiple interpretations as I already stated.

Regardless, you are not the OP, so the irony here is quite palpable. If he clarifies that the literal response to his question is all that he's interested in, then I'll cease contributing.

[NichG]

For the record I agree with Psyren that 'artifact' is the best way to satisfy the suspension of disbelief clause. Everything beyond here is just me having fun with ideas and not to be taken as somehow better than that suggestion.

The artifact was destroyed one round ago by a Disjunction from a wizard who was then subsequently dunked into Quintessence. His personal timeframe is frozen. He has a single casting of Wish memorized, which is capable of undoing misfortune that occurred within the last round (or more simply, an Amulet of Second Chances).

If you open the chamber and do not get him to use Wish/the Amulet with his first action coming out of it, the artifact is now irrevocably destroyed rather than just in a sort of potentially destroyed state of flux. If you teleport into it incorporeally, congrats, you're frozen in time with the wizard but it doesn't get you the artifact. The only person for whom the artifact was 'just destroyed' and therefore reachable is that particular wizard.

The trick is then, what is the key that will tell the wizard to cast his Wish and bring back the artifact? It must be some visual signal he can react to immediately. That signal is effectively the key to the 'lock'. Divinations to discover this key fail because the gods are the source of said divinations and simply deny the answer. Your best bet to break this lock would be to find an elemental Weird I guess.

[Amechra]

The case is Riverine coated in a layer of Livewood.

Now, how does this work?

Basically, Riverine is indestructible without using something that can destroy a wall of force (basically, Disintegrate and derivatives.)

Disintegrate has no effect on living objects, such as something made out of Livewood.

[Sith_Happens]

you'd have to have some sort of resetting trap of time hop or something on the various pieces

Not necessarily. There's probably some way the desired result could be achieved by playing around with Alter Reality.

Anyways, I'm in the "it's a major artifact, done" camp. The solution to Disjunction is simple: One of the artifact's effects is to Sculpt any Disjunction that would be incident on it, choosing the "four 10-foot cubes" option and placing them in random spaces besides its own.

[TuggyNE]

Besides NichG's intriguing idea, I'd suggest a more general way to avoid wish-teleportation shenanigans: have the entire space reachable by one or more no-save, no-SR traps to shunt intruders into a holding cell/kill zone after they arrive no matter how they got there (including walking in). This way, wish's local conditions clause won't do anything, since it stops after getting the target there. The trap(s) do need some way to detect various stealth measures (superior invisibility, etc), as well as defeating sneaky teleportation/forced-movement blockers like contingent dimensional anchor or similar, but those should be more or less practical to figure out.

[Qwertystop]

The case is Riverine coated in a layer of Livewood.

Now, how does this work?

Basically, Riverine is indestructible without using something that can destroy a wall of force (basically, Disintegrate and derivatives.)

Disintegrate has no effect on living objects, such as something made out of Livewood.

Um. Unless you've got some way to combine their traits into one object without invalidating them, you've just got layers. Break a hole in the livewood, then disintegrate the riverine through it.

[Amechra]

That's why I stopped there; I'm reasonably sure Alter Reality could make them into one material.

I was just posting it to get the general "there is a way to make an indestructible material" thing out there.

However, if you want to make it really hard to find the enclosure in the first place... brother, I have several tons of completely undetectable Obdurium to sell ya.