A little Weapon Focus homerule

[fluke1993]

I was thinking about how much I dislike the Weapon Focus tree and how being forced to spend a feat on the tree for something like PrC kinda sucks.


My question is this:

First; would Changing the requirements from fighter levels to the equivalent BAB make the game any more unbalanced than it already is?

Second; would giving Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater WF and greater WS away for free as soon as a character has the prerequisite BAB make the game any more unbalanced than it already is assuming that you cannot take WF: ray or touch attack spell?

[Chronos]

If you give it for free for every weapon, then it's not exactly a focus or specialization any more.

That said, collapsing them all into a single feat (for which you still choose one weapon), which gives additional benefits as the prerequisites are unlocked, shouldn't be a problem.

[Trunamer]

I'm confused as to why you'd want to give these feats to everyone for free, but no, it wouldn't unbalance anything more than casters already do.

[fluke1993]

@Chronos, no you would still have to chose a weapon for it to apply to, the only thing that changes is that BAB can substitute for fighter level.

[Snowbluff]

If you give it for free for every weapon, then it's not exactly a focus or specialization any more.
You are focused in using weapons. :3


That said, collapsing them all into a single feat (for which you still choose one weapon), which gives additional benefits as the prerequisites are unlocked, shouldn't be a problem.

It might be a bit strong. Like Knowledge Devotion, which requires more investment.

[Hytheter]

Second; would giving Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater WF and greater WS away for free as soon as a character has the prerequisite BAB make the game any more unbalanced than it already is assuming that you cannot take WF: ray or touch attack spell?

By "for free" do you mean as a single feat? (ie Weapon Focus gets you all the others eventually?)
If so, that seems fine to me. It's only an eventual +2 to hit and +4 damage in the grand scheme of things, which is realistically pretty minor.

[mattie_p]

By "for free" do you mean as a single feat? (ie Weapon Focus gets you all the others eventually?)
If so, that seems fine to me. It's only an eventual +2 to hit and +4 damage in the grand scheme of things, which is realistically pretty minor.

So the war domain cleric gets an eventual +2 to hit and +4 to damage for free? Why are we playing mundanes again? :smallwink:

Consider ensuring that is not a side effect of your house rule.

[Hytheter]

So the war domain cleric gets an eventual +2 to hit and +4 to damage for free? Why are we playing mundanes again? :smallwink:

Well, the cleric does take longer to qualify on account of its lower BAB.

Although on that note, I'd suggest making the requirements 2 higher than normal for non-fighters, or have their BAB count as 2 less for that feat. This gives fighters a niche, however small, and keeps everyone in line with the RAW Warblade (which can get Fighter only feats at a delayed progression). It also makes it tougher for non-fighter classes to get the whole feat tree, which I'd argue is a good thing.

[mattie_p]

Well, the cleric does take longer to qualify on account of its lower BAB.

Although on that note, I'd suggest making the requirements 2 higher than normal for non-fighters, or have their BAB count as 2 less for that feat. This gives fighters a niche, however small, and keeps everyone in line with the RAW Warblade (which can get Fighter only feats at a delayed progression). It also makes it tougher for non-fighter classes to get the whole feat tree, which I'd argue is a good thing.

Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) would like a word with you.


Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks)

Especially as a personal range spell, meaning it is easily persisted (preferably by DMM - the only way non Mystra worshiping clerics should be persisting spells).

[Hytheter]

Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) would like a word with you.



Especially as a personal range spell, meaning it is easily persisted (preferably by DMM - the only way non Mystra worshiping clerics should be persisting spells).

Can you qualify for feats with temporary effects though?

[justiceforall]

I'm pretty sure by RAW you can qualify with anything at all. The argument more seems to be what counts as cheese (qualifying with items, etc).

[prufock]

Well, the cleric does take longer to qualify on account of its lower BAB.

How would this react with Divine Power? How about Inspire Greatness?

[mattie_p]

Can you qualify for feats with temporary effects though?

The cleric qualified for the weapon focus feat via the War Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain) (essentially for free, I might add), as I suggested earlier.


War Domain
Granted Power
Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.

The BAB from the normal cleric levels (or prestige classes, or cloistered cleric levels, I don't care) are handled via Divine Power. Then add in knowledge devotion for additional bonuses for mr or ms cloistered cleric.

I bring this up because when houserules are introduced, the corner cases are the ones that bring the biggest headaches. This is a big corner case for the suggested house rule.

[Red Fel]

This gives fighters a niche, however small, and keeps everyone in line with the RAW Warblade (which can get Fighter only feats at a delayed progression).

On the other hand, Warblade gets that lovely Weapon Aptitude feature, which actually streamlines the feats nicely. Yes, you still have to take all of the feats individually, but by dedicating time, you can switch the feats to any other weapon you have handy. (And your spellcasters will probably need that time to prepare spells anyway. Not like you had anything better to do.) So while having to get all of the feats is the same hassle it has always been, at least they get slightly greater versatility.

Want to houserule something on those feats? Try Weapon Aptitude.

[fluke1993]

Well the idea is that you don't have to take any feats to get these effects, EVERYone gets them, free.

You still have to choose a weapon, you just don't need to burn any feats.

Also I didn't think that any spells actually gave BAB, just a bonus to atack rolls? If there are spells that do exist, it would be Base Unmodified Atack Bonus. (BUAB)

[TuggyNE]

Well the idea is that you don't have to take any feats to get these effects, EVERYone gets them, free.

You still have to choose a weapon, you just don't need to burn any feats.

Also I didn't think that any spells actually gave BAB, just a bonus to atack rolls? If there are spells that do exist, it would be Base Unmodified Atack Bonus. (BUAB)

Divine power, in Core, gives a little wave and says "I'm right here!"

[fluke1993]

Son of a gun, so it does. Most of my experience in spells comes from pathfinder but even then I didn't know think 3.5 DP actually increased BAB.

In any case, DP or any effect aside from taking levels in a class that grants BAB would NOT, even temporarily, grant the benefits of this house rule.

[TuggyNE]

Son of a gun, so it does. Most of my experience in spells comes from pathfinder but even then I didn't know think 3.5 DP actually increased BAB.

Yeah, divine power is one of the more insulting spells in Clericzilla's arsenal. (Repertoire? Revelation? Canon? What's the right collective noun for "divinely-granted spells", anyway?)


In any case, DP or any effect aside from taking levels in a class that grants BAB would NOT, even temporarily, grant the benefits of this house rule.

Fair enough.

[Person_Man]

A bit of history:

In early editions of D&D, is was actually quite hard to get to-hit and damage bonuses or extra attacks. Spells could do it in various ways, but they were in limited supply, and it was generally assumed that you would grind through an entire multi-level dungeon without resting. (You saved your spells for important fights, hit points and Cure spells were valuable resources to be conserved, most Wizards were blasters because by default most spells without expensive material components were blaster spells, and so on).

But the Fighter had Weapon Focus/Specialization, extraordinary Strength, and eventuall free henchmen and multiple attacks, which made the Fighter worth playing. Weapon Specialization was also a cunning way for the DM to force players to share treasure more equitably. Traditionally, the front line meat shield would get the first pick of magical weapons and armor, because they were on the front line. But if the Fighter has Weapon Specialization in with a longsword, then the DM could hand out a magical polearm, and it wouldn't automatically go to the Fighter. (And if you had multiple Fighters in the same party, they would Specialize in different things precisely for that reason).

NONE of that applies to 3.5. They basically just included something that vaguely resembled Weapon Focus/Specialization for the sake of tradition, even though it no longer makes any sense in the context of the other game rules.

So the best house rule is basically to eliminate it entirely. If someone wants to take a cool Feat that requires Weapon Focus, just let them take that Feat. Don't make them slog through multiple cruddy Feats to get it, or jigger with those cruddy Feats in order to make it "worth it" somehow.

[Chronos]

The simplest way to deal with the cleric problem (or at least this one little facet of the cleric problem) is to just change the wording of the War domain granted power to "You gain proficiency with your deity's favored weapon, and get +1 to attack rolls with it".