My first cleric (3.5)

[ducttapebandit]

I feel really stupid asking about this, but I've never even played a magic user I've put together (the other time I tried to play a magic user, the campaign was cancelled). I don't know where to start with feats and spells. I've tried looking at online guides but they focus on what clerics can do at higher levels (meta-magic feats, high level spells, certain kinds of optimal equipment, etc).

The game is on Thursday. It's a level 1 adventure while our current campaign is on hiatus. The DM said to assume we rolled max wealth for our class. For stats, I rolled 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13. So far, I've decided my character is a neutral good follower of Pelor and has the Sun and Good domains. Any advice or guidance?

[Waker]

No need to feel ashamed, we all have to start somewhere.
Ok, so you've decided that you wanted to play a cleric. What role do you want to play in the party? Will you lead from the front and duke it out with the enemies? Sit back and play doctor for the party? Lay into the enemies with blasts and debuffs? Be a mystic scholar who knows a little bit of everything and knows how to find out what he doesn't know?

Deciding this can help narrow down our suggestions, even though a cleric can normally do all of those simultaneously to some degree. Ah, it might also help to know what the rest of the party is playing.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the thing with picking feats and the like is not only do you have to know what role you want to play... you also need to know what level your campaign is going to end at.

For example, if you're going 1-5 or something? Actually picking up Scribe Scroll as a feat is something I'd consider. Clerics have a TON of useful utility spells that you don't necessarily want clogging up all your spell slots. Light, divinations ranging from "Detect X" to Find Traps to Augury, etc. And since you maxed out your wealth making a few scrolls isn't going to break your bank.

But if you're going up to level 20 or something? At some point when you start really raking in the cash being able to make your own scrolls of Heal or the like just isn't going to seem that attractive.

[GilesTheCleric]

Welcome to the fold! Clerics are quite fun to play, especially once you really hit your stride at around level 5. No need to get to incredibly high levels to have fun and play well.

It would also be good if you could mention which books are available to you. If you're unsure about any rules related to spellcasting, then it might be good to mention that ^^ Clerics have a few differences from other spellcasters that are important to note - primarily how they rest and regain spells.

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15895671&postcount=13) a post I made recently that covers skills and feats. I've also got a post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509) detailing some good spells.

[Firechanter]

Clerics are pretty awesome, just don't get roped into Healbot status. They are probably the easiest full-caster class to play, so don't worry.

Clerics can hold their own right from the start. What characters are you used to, and what optimization level do you expect from the rest of the group?

Anyway, I'd keep this simple here and go with a straightforward Cleric for now. If the campaign is going to take you at least to mid levels, you might want to look at qualifying for Radiant Servant of Pelor (nice PrC, not extremely optimized but an upgrade to regular Cleric) while at the same time heading for a DMM Persist CoDzilla (i.e. taking the feats Extend Spell, Persist Spell and DMM Persist Spell). But be warned, if you do that in a low-op game, expect your group's Fighter to hate you for being made irrelevant. :p

As for your stats, I'd put the 15 in Wis, 14 in Int, and rest 13 is fine. I take it you want to be a Human? It's a fine choice, as for any class. The high Int score because you can never have enough skill points.

At the very low levels, you may sometimes be forced to use Cure spells, and that's okay, but that should stop at level 3 at the latest. Have the party pool gold to buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor, which gives the best Gold-to-HP ratio for consumable items.

My favourite PHB spells at level 1 are Bless and Protection from X (usually Evil). Spellcasting isn't so hot yet but it won't be long til it really takes off.

The important thing is that you survive, so take the heaviest armour and shield you can get your hands on. Swing a Heavy Mace for now; you will get better options in good time.

I'm sure someone here will suggest going for Cloistered Cleric instead. Be warned: it's a great option, if you know what you're doing. ClCl has a lot of benefits but pays with low HP, Light Armour and bad BAB, so you are as papery as a Bard. So I suggest to leave that for the moment and go for the regular tanky bloke. Just remember not to cast spells when threatened by an enemy - at least not just yet. That's what 5' steps are for.

Let's face it, everyone sucks at level 1. You actually suck less than most others, but you're not gonna cleric so bloody much either.

[GilesTheCleric]

Swing a Heavy Mace for now; you will get better options in good time.

Going with a morningstar is a slightly better option than the heavy mace. It's cheaper, lighter, does the same damage, but has the benefit of doing both B & P damage instead of just B.

[Firechanter]

True; I just prefer the Hv Mace because, well, of flavour reasons; and also because it's more sturdy and not sundered as easily.
Also, what lowlevel enemies have DR that is beaten by Piercing?

[ducttapebandit]

Thanks for the help everyone! I have some almost answers for you.

No need to feel ashamed, we all have to start somewhere.
Ok, so you've decided that you wanted to play a cleric. What role do you want to play in the party? Will you lead from the front and duke it out with the enemies? Sit back and play doctor for the party? Lay into the enemies with blasts and debuffs? Be a mystic scholar who knows a little bit of everything and knows how to find out what he doesn't know?

Deciding this can help narrow down our suggestions, even though a cleric can normally do all of those simultaneously to some degree. Ah, it might also help to know what the rest of the party is playing.
Yes, it would help to know what the rest of the party is playing. No one else has locked in anything. Right now, one of the other players is leaning towards a magic user of some kind (not divine), one will probably be picking from a handful of options the DM is bringing, and another may or may not show up (no clue what she'll play if she's there).

I know undead will be involved in this adventure, so I'd like to do something to counter that. Right now, I'm also preparing to tank a bit and healing is a must.


Well, the thing with picking feats and the like is not only do you have to know what role you want to play... you also need to know what level your campaign is going to end at.This may or may not last more than just the one adventure. There's some talk of doing some kind of adventurer's guild with a rotating cast of characters and possibly a rotation amongst DMs as well, but nothing definite.


It would also be good if you could mention which books are available to you. If you're unsure about any rules related to spellcasting, then it might be good to mention that ^^ Clerics have a few differences from other spellcasters that are important to note - primarily how they rest and regain spells.

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15895671&postcount=13) a post I made recently that covers skills and feats. I've also got a post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509) detailing some good spells.What books do we have? The answer is, "Yes!" I think we have all WotC material available in either print or pdf form (plus a handful of 3rd party things), but I'm trying to keep things relatively simple with my first cleric. Thanks for the links. Those will be useful.

[ArcturusV]

And remember to pack a dagger. Actually that applies to almost any character. But clerics no longer have the "only use blunt" problem that they had in earlier editions. So making sure you have a dagger for when you just NEED slashing type damage (It happens) or just need to get a last shot in on some guy that's 50 feet away (Also happens far too much) is always a good idea.

[GilesTheCleric]

It sounds like you know what you're doing; I'll just mention a few other things in light of your group/situation.

Since nobody else has finalized their characters, you might urge them all to worship pelor so that you can cast faith healing rather than cure x. Also, depending on how you want to spend your wealth, segojan's armor may be of use.

Edit:

True; I just prefer the Hv Mace because, well, of flavour reasons; and also because it's more sturdy and not sundered as easily.
Also, what lowlevel enemies have DR that is beaten by Piercing?

You're right about sundering; I didn't think about that. As far as I'm aware, there are none that have DR/P. However, I use the piercing damage for the same reason as Arcturus suggested the dagger - versatility. Sometimes it's useful to be able to puncture things (mostly out of combat).

[ducttapebandit]

Clerics can hold their own right from the start. What characters are you used to, and what optimization level do you expect from the rest of the group?

Anyway, I'd keep this simple here and go with a straightforward Cleric for now. If the campaign is going to take you at least to mid levels, you might want to look at qualifying for Radiant Servant of Pelor (nice PrC, not extremely optimized but an upgrade to regular Cleric) while at the same time heading for a DMM Persist CoDzilla (i.e. taking the feats Extend Spell, Persist Spell and DMM Persist Spell). But be warned, if you do that in a low-op game, expect your group's Fighter to hate you for being made irrelevant. :p

As for your stats, I'd put the 15 in Wis, 14 in Int, and rest 13 is fine. I take it you want to be a Human? It's a fine choice, as for any class. The high Int score because you can never have enough skill points.

At the very low levels, you may sometimes be forced to use Cure spells, and that's okay, but that should stop at level 3 at the latest. Have the party pool gold to buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor, which gives the best Gold-to-HP ratio for consumable items.

My favourite PHB spells at level 1 are Bless and Protection from X (usually Evil). Spellcasting isn't so hot yet but it won't be long til it really takes off.

The important thing is that you survive, so take the heaviest armour and shield you can get your hands on. Swing a Heavy Mace for now; you will get better options in good time.

I'm sure someone here will suggest going for Cloistered Cleric instead. Be warned: it's a great option, if you know what you're doing. ClCl has a lot of benefits but pays with low HP, Light Armour and bad BAB, so you are as papery as a Bard. So I suggest to leave that for the moment and go for the regular tanky bloke. Just remember not to cast spells when threatened by an enemy - at least not just yet. That's what 5' steps are for.

Let's face it, everyone sucks at level 1. You actually suck less than most others, but you're not gonna cleric so bloody much either.

I've mostly done rangers and rogues. I'm pretty comfortable with other full BAB characters as well. "See monster, hit monster," is pretty simple. My group doesn't optimize much and this subset of players will be interesting. I challenged the other experienced player to try something he's never done before (don't know what he'll pick). We've got a relative noob that's more of a character actor. One of the other players tends to pick her character for her (or at least provide major assistance). We've got another experienced player, but she may or may not show up. The DM for this is the most optimize-y person in the group. He's the one that introduced me to OotS and this forum. :biggrin:

You picked the same stat distribution and race as me, so it sounds like I'm on the right track.


It sounds like you know what you're doing; I'll just mention a few other things in light of your group/situation.

Since nobody else has finalized their characters, you might urge them all to worship pelor so that you can cast faith healing rather than cure x. Also, depending on how you want to spend your wealth, segojan's armor may be of use.Hadn't heard of segojan's armor. That should be useful.

[Slipperychicken]

I once played a Cleric, and got great results from a Longspear and gauntlets (gauntlet lets you smack people at 5ft, Longspear hits at 10ft). The reach is pretty sweet, it lets you attack from the second rank if you're in tight quarters, and can serve as an impromptu 10ft pole when necessary. From what I've seen, scoring that AoO on a charging enemy can make or break battles, especially if you get to set the spear against the charge.

[oball]

Sometimes it's useful to be able to puncture things (mostly out of combat).

Now I'm imagining a cleric using his morningstar to open a can of juice

[ArcturusV]

The way some of those pull tabs are shoddily made... that makes perfect sense to me. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Waker]

Well, Good or Neutral Clerics can heal well out of the box. You can take feats and classes that increase this, but this is generally not necessary. Remember to not prepare any Cure spells in advance, rather use the spontaneous exchange ability to heal whenever it is necessary. Since you seem interested in tanking a bit, I would suggest preparing some buffing spells, like Divine Power. It generally isn't a terrible idea to prepare some restorative magic like Neutralize Poison or Restoration since those effects can really hinder the party.
If you feel Undead will play a bit role in the campaign, Extra Turning might come in handy. If you think you'll be facing hordes of undead, Empower Turning may also be useful, though doubtful.
And now here's the part where everyone tells you to take Divine Metamagic along with Persist Spell.

[Raendyn]

while at the same time heading for a DMM Persist CoDzilla (i.e. taking the feats Extend Spell, Persist Spell and DMM Persist Spell). But be warned, if you do that in a low-op game, expect your group's Fighter to hate you for being made irrelevant. :p

For some reason I am starting to allow this more and more often, and it tents to be regreted by the players. investing so badly into being able to persist 2 or max 3 spells,(with out the nightstick stack which is RAW and RAI impossible), just isn't worth it, especially when the DM can play reactively to it.

[Firechanter]

True, it is a heavy investment; usually four feats (inc Extra Turning) to get two spells persisted; I find it very difficult to get a 3rd spell without resorting to cheese. When I first learned of DMM Persist I thought it was broken, now I see that more relaxed.

[Garwain]

Hi there, you won't regret your choice! I've had a ton of fun with my cleric from lvl 1 to 6, especiialy because they have so many options. Even with only the core books + Complete Dive + Complete Champion, you can already customize about everything in your build.

Featwise, I would definitly NOT advice going the 'persistent spell' route, as this will absolutely be NOT fun to play at low levels.

So many things you can do... summon, buff, heal, tank, utility. Honestly, you can't screw up as long as you choose at least a fun Prestige Class to work towards, then all will be good.

[Raendyn]

True, it is a heavy investment; usually four feats (inc Extra Turning) to get two spells persisted; I find it very difficult to get a 3rd spell without resorting to cheese. When I first learned of DMM Persist I thought it was broken, now I see that more relaxed.

Well, with a 14 starting CHA extra turning, eagle's splendor, one night stick, thats two DMM.

At higher lvls with better buff spells to CHA (Gr. VotD) and a +6 enchantment to CHA, and Tome, you can get that 3rd.

With maxed CHA early and a nice race you might trigger off the 4th, maybe along with Dragon magazine feats, like easy metamagic or so...

Thats before cheese IMO.

[Greenish]

True, it is a heavy investment; usually four feats (inc Extra Turning) to get two spells persisted; I find it very difficult to get a 3rd spell without resorting to cheese. When I first learned of DMM Persist I thought it was broken, now I see that more relaxed.Mmn, the main reason I've stayed far away from DMM Persist is because it goes "om nom nom" on your feats.

[Raendyn]

Mmn, the main reason I've stayed far away from DMM Persist is because it goes "om nom nom" on your feats.

DMM Pestist: Are those your feats? NOM NOM NOM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDjQT08qyNY)

[Darrin]

Some recommendations:

Tacticals, 1st Level:
Round 1) Bless.
Round 2) Protection from evil.
Round 3) Cause fear.
Round 4) Wade in with your morningstar or get out the crossbow.

Battlefield Control: obscuring mist, ice slick (Frostburn)
Summons: conjure ice beast I, wolf w/ cold aura (Frostburn)

Tacticals, 2nd Level:
Round 1) Bless.
Round 2) Protection from evil.
Round 3) Cause fear.
Round 4) Magic stone.
Round 5) Throw stone.
Round 6) Throw stone.
Round 7) Throw stone.
Round 8) Wade in with your morningstar or get out your crossbow.

Battlefield Control: obscuring mist, ice slick (Frostburn)
Summons: conjure ice beast I -> wolf w/ cold aura (Frostburn)

Tacticals, 3rd Level:
Round 1) Bless.
Round 2) Spiritual weapon.
Round 3) Cloud of knives (PHBII).
Round 4) Cause fear or heat metal.
Round 5) Magic stone.
Round 6) Throw stone.
Round 7) Throw stone.
Round 8) Throw stone.
Round 9) Wade in with your morningstar or get out your crossbow.

Battlefield Control: obscuring snow (Frostburn), dark way (Spell Compendium)
Summons: conjure ice beast I -> two wolves w/ cold aura, hippogriff with frigid touch, or large centiped with engulf (Frostburn)

I'm not quite sure magic stone is all that effective. Anyone have some better suggestions?

[Firechanter]

You're expected to be useful for four encounters per day. That won't be easy if you blow half or all your spells on a single encounter. Of course you need to learn how to call your shots. When I played my first Cleric, it also happened that I panicked at the first sight of some large spiders and blew out my best buffs in a totally easy fight (luckily, Bull's Strength lasted hours/level so it was not a total waste).

It's a balance you have to strike. The first lesson in spellcasting is: being proactive is better than being reactive. Instead of waiting until the Fighter gets hit and wasting your spell slot on CLW, you should have given him Shield of Faith or (preferably) Protection from Evil so he wouldn't get hit in the first place. And _yet_ better it would be to buff his attack/damage so he can kill stuff before they even get to strike back at him, but there your options in the very low levels are limited.

[ducttapebandit]

Things ended up not running this week. One player was sick, another completely exhausted, and the third didn't have a character done.:smallannoyed: We put it off to a future date.

I ended up bucking some of the advice on feat selection in favor of something that made me giggle, since this is probably not going to progress further than a single adventure. I took the feats Dragontouched, Extra Turning, and Dragonfire Channeling (I took a flaw to get a bonus feat). It means I can spend turn undead uses to shoot fire at my enemies. The spell suggestions were very helpful and I pretty much stuck with those.

Thank you, everyone!