Catfall and Tripping

[molten_dragon]

How does the psionic power catfall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/catfall.htm) interact with trip attempts?

It reads to me like catfall would make you immune to being tripped, since if you're tripped, you'll fall (at least a foot or two) and then catfall kicks in, and you land on your feet.

[TuggyNE]

That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.

Of course, I would houserule both of those at the same time, but if you're gonna try crazy munchkin stuff, be prepared for the obvious answers. :smallwink:

[Greenish]

If a psion/wilder/psy warr took that power, out of his few known ones, and is prepared to burn his precious PP and only slightly less precious swift/immediate actions to counter a trip attempt, I'd be almost inclined to let him.

[Rubik]

If a psion/wilder/psy warr took that power, out of his few known ones, and is prepared to burn his precious PP and only slightly less precious swift/immediate actions to counter a trip attempt, I'd be almost inclined to let him.Ditto. By conversational language, you do fall when tripped (assuming you're not a naga or something). Catfall isn't very useful overall, so having it save you from trips will also save you from having a nigh-useless power.

[TuggyNE]

If a psion/wilder/psy warr took that power, out of his few known ones, and is prepared to burn his precious PP and only slightly less precious swift/immediate actions to counter a trip attempt, I'd be almost inclined to let him.

I did think of the pp after posting; especially considering the duration, and the fact it ends on use, I might downgrade this to "weird cheese" instead of "horrid abuse".

Still, kind of stupid.

[Greenish]

Still, kind of stupid.Yes, in the sense that it's overly literalistic and almost certainly against the RAI.

But on the other hand, using your mind powers to do a backflip and land on your feet instead of being tripped is pretty cool. :smallamused:

[Rubik]

I did think of the pp after posting; especially considering the duration, and the fact it ends on use, I might downgrade this to "weird cheese" instead of "horrid abuse".

Still, kind of stupid.It's called a "kip up." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2F1MtzFw2c)

[edit] Oh, and if you're tripped as a flier, Catfall means that the trip attempt results in a loss of altitude, but that's about it.

[molten_dragon]

That's a RAW abuse.

Yeah, I know.


Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.

Does RAW actually say anywhere that tripping does not cause you to fall? Because I don't remember ever seeing such a rule. Just because the rules don't specifically say that tripping makes you fall, doesn't mean that you don't fall when tripped.

[molten_dragon]

I did think of the pp after posting; especially considering the duration, and the fact it ends on use, I might downgrade this to "weird cheese" instead of "horrid abuse".

Still, kind of stupid.

Yeah, it's kind of stupid, I just asked out of curiosity.

Still, it would make catfall slightly less useless (and would make the boots of catfall for like 1000 gold not a terrible choice).

[Segev]

Given how situational Catfall is - a power that consumes a powers-known slot on everybody (except the erudite) who learns it, and is less good under standard assumptions than Feather Fall (who at least Wizards can pick up without feeling like they've blown a permanent resource) - having it usable for anti-tripping is not a big deal, in my opinion. Good? Yes. But its action and pp cost as well as the opportunity cost of learning it are enough that it doesn't seem broken.

It even makes a certain amount of IC sense on top of being within at least the shady borders of the RAW. The power makes you re-orient and land "on your feet," which is rather decidedly not prone by any definition we usually use. And I believe tripping renders you prone. So you get tripped, you start to fall, you re-orient, and land on your feet (perhaps in a slight crouch compared to before).

[Curmudgeon]

Does RAW actually say anywhere that tripping does not cause you to fall? Because I don't remember ever seeing such a rule. Just because the rules don't specifically say that tripping makes you fall, doesn't mean that you don't fall when tripped.
Well, the rules also don't say that you don't fall when you Tumble, or sit down, or cast Alter Self. They don't say anything about you not falling when you retrieve a spell component, or when you speak. Along the same line of reasoning, the rules make no mention at all about you not receiving a free Wish every time you say "Abracadabra!"

D&D is a game which says what happens when you take specific actions. It isn't structured to list all the things which don't happen.

[Rubik]

Well, the rules also don't say that you don't fall when you Tumble, or sit down, or cast Alter Self. They don't say anything about you not falling when you retrieve a spell component, or when you speak. Along the same line of reasoning, the rules make no mention at all about you not receiving a free Wish every time you say "Abracadabra!"

D&D is a game which says what happens when you take specific actions. It isn't structured to list all the things which don't happen.I don't know about you, but every time I've actually been successfully tripped, I've fallen. Usually on my knees or my face, prone. Just like the rules say happens.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't know about you, but every time I've actually been successfully tripped, I've fallen. Usually on my knees or my face, prone. Just like the rules say happens.

Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

Being Tripped (Prone)

A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Prone

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. There is no mention of "falling" anywhere in the Trip rules. So, just like the rules say, you get tripped and become prone; you don't fall in the process.

[Rubik]

There is no mention of "falling" anywhere in the Trip rules. So, just like the rules say, you get tripped and become prone; you don't fall in the process.Again, every time I've been tripped, I've fallen as a logical consequence, and as mentioned, RAW doesn't say you don't fall. I do believe that the rules say that if the rules don't cover something, you default to the way it works in the real world, do they not?

[Segev]

I believe it safe to say - within the RAW and without - that going from "not-prone" to "prone" is pretty clear. If you didn't "fall" between them, fine, but you still land on your feet, not your face, hands, knees, rump, or other assorted non-pedal body parts, thanks to Catfall.

[Eric Scott]

Wait... if I don't fall when I'm tripped yet I do become prone... Am I floating in the air in the square in which I was tripped?

If yes, well damn, I guess I can levitate...

If no, then how in the hell did I get on the floor?

[TuggyNE]

I believe it safe to say - within the RAW and without - that going from "not-prone" to "prone" is pretty clear. If you didn't "fall" between them, fine, but you still land on your feet, not your face, hands, knees, rump, or other assorted non-pedal body parts, thanks to Catfall.

But if you didn't fall, catfall won't do anything for you. :smalltongue:

[Deaxsa]

That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW

can i sig this?

[TuggyNE]

can i sig this?

I suppose, although I'd prefer if you could include the bit about fixing both of them by common sense as well, since that's (to my mind) really more important. :smallwink:

[Namfuak]

Wait... if I don't fall when I'm tripped yet I do become prone... Am I floating in the air in the square in which I was tripped?

If yes, well damn, I guess I can levitate...

If no, then how in the hell did I get on the floor?



Prone

The character is on the ground.


You don't float when you are prone. Also, I agree that due to the wording "A tripped character is prone" rather than "A tripped character falls prone," falling is not part of being tripped and therefore not countered by catfall.

[Curmudgeon]

Falling in D&D generally incurs falling damage. Falling prone would enable Catfall, but taking 1d6 damage for being tripped would be a serious downside. You could be tripped unarmed or with a whip — which would normally deal nonlethal damage — but then take lethal damage from those otherwise nondamaging trip attacks! :smallmad:

No, it's better to become prone without falling.

[Rubik]

Note that if you fall less than 10 feet then you don't take damage, meaning that falling to the ground when tripped (which is totally what happens) doesn't deal damage unless you actually do fall a significant distance.

[molten_dragon]

Well, the rules also don't say that you don't fall when you Tumble, or sit down, or cast Alter Self. They don't say anything about you not falling when you retrieve a spell component, or when you speak. Along the same line of reasoning, the rules make no mention at all about you not receiving a free Wish every time you say "Abracadabra!"

D&D is a game which says what happens when you take specific actions. It isn't structured to list all the things which don't happen.

When the rules don't explicitly cover something (such as whether or not being tripped makes you fall), we're left with using logic to determine what happens. It's logical to assume that you fall when you are tripped. It is not logical to assume you fall when you tumble unless you botch the tumble roll badly enough maybe), when you sit down, cast alter self, retrieve a spell component, or speak.

[Segev]

Falling in D&D generally incurs falling damage. Falling prone would enable Catfall, but taking 1d6 damage for being tripped would be a serious downside. You could be tripped unarmed or with a whip — which would normally deal nonlethal damage — but then take lethal damage from those otherwise nondamaging trip attacks! :smallmad:

No, it's better to become prone without falling.

False; you take 1d6 per ten feet beyond the first 10 feet you fall. You might be able to argue that Huge creatures might count as falling more than 10 feet from a trip, but smaller ones definitely don't.

And, if we're parsing language so finely that "is prone [when he wasn't before]" doesn't mean he falls, then we can parse Catfall to read only "You land on your feet," saying that "no matter how far you fall" is expansive, not restrictive. It may say this power saves you from a fall, but it doesn't say that it won't allow you to land on your feet if some other, non-fall occurrence would cause some other part of you to hit the ground.

Again, this fine parsing is no more silly than the one that insists that going from standing to prone isn't falling.

[Spiryt]

Again, every time I've been tripped, I've fallen as a logical consequence, and as mentioned, RAW doesn't say you don't fall. I do believe that the rules say that if the rules don't cover something, you default to the way it works in the real world, do they not?

This can become interesting quick though.

If we count trip as falling, and tripped person spins, and lands on their feet instead, as in description - does this mean that character holding, and tripping spins around as well?

Landing for example, on their head instead? :smallbiggrin:

http://headblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/RAMPAGE-SLAM-BADER.gif

[Lord Haart]

Prone

The character is on the ground.Now that bit made me think whether, by stupidRAW, Stone Dragon maneuvers/stances and simular "only when standing on the ground" effects actually require you to be prone.

[TuggyNE]

Now that bit made me think whether, by stupidRAW, Stone Dragon maneuvers/stances and simular "only when standing on the ground" effects actually require you to be prone.

X -> Y, yes, but fortunately Y -> X does not hold; prone is one possible condition in which you are on the ground, but not the only one. (Of course, that's still a lousy definition, since definitions should not only be accurate but specific, but the lack of specificity does not itself force further wacky adventures.)

[Person_Man]

I believe the Feat you're looking for is Combat Acrobat. If you make a DC 20 Balance check to negate being knocked Prone, and/or a DC 15 check to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. PHBII pg 76.

[Segev]

I believe the Feat you're looking for is Combat Acrobat. If you make a DC 20 Balance check to negate being knocked Prone, and/or a DC 15 check to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. PHBII pg 76.

Sure. But the existence of a feat doesn't mean a power can't have a similar effect. Otherwise, Daggerspell Stance couldn't exist because Two Weapon Fighting does.

[Curmudgeon]

Note that if you fall less than 10 feet then you don't take damage, meaning that falling to the ground when tripped (which is totally what happens) doesn't deal damage unless you actually do fall a significant distance.
That's a good point, but not quite accurate.
Minimum Damage

If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage. If you're claiming that you must fall and smack into the ground when you're tripped, you consequently must take 1 point of lethal damage every time.

[Segev]

Except that falling doesn't say "you take 1d6 per 10 feet minus 1d6." It says, "you take 1d6 for every 10 feet after the first."

So no, you take no damage if you fall 10 feet or less. There is no penalty reducing the damage to zero. You don't take damage. No dice are rolled.

[Curmudgeon]

Except that falling doesn't say "you take 1d6 per 10 feet minus 1d6." It says, "you take 1d6 for every 10 feet after the first."
Where are you getting that from?
Falling Damage: The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. There's no "every 10 feet after the first" rule, except when you make Tumble or Jump rolls on your turn for deliberately falling. See Dungeon Master's Guide on page 303.

[Rubik]

Where are you getting that from? There's no "every 10 feet after the first" rule. See Dungeon Master's Guide on page 303.Okay, so I take 1d6 damage for every 10 feet I fall. I fell less than 10 feet, meaning I take 0d6, which equals 0.

Note that it says you take damage per 10 feet fallen. Unless you're flying or otherwise above the surface of the ground, you don't fall 10 feet when tripped.

I don't see it as a problem.

[Greenish]

Note that it says you take damage per 10 feet fallen. Unless you're flying or otherwise above the surface of the ground, you don't fall 10 feet when tripped.What if you're Large or larger?

And from which part of you is the falling distance counted anyway? If you're standing, your feet are on the ground, and if you're Prone, your feet are on the ground, so how could you have fallen? But if we count it from head, which has obviously moved in vertical dimension, how does landing on your feet enter into it?

:smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Okay, so I take 1d6 damage for every 10 feet I fall. I fell less than 10 feet, meaning I take 0d6, which equals 0.
Except, of course, for the Minimum Damage rule, which says you take 1 point in that case.

[3WhiteFox3]

Except, of course, for the Minimum Damage rule, which says you take 1 point in that case.
Is rolling 0d6 a penalty? No it is not, therefore minimum damage doesn't go into effect. Otherwise you would always take 1 damage from fire damage, despite being immune to fire or if you had more DR than the damage being dealt to you.

[Greenish]

Except, of course, for the Minimum Damage rule, which says you take 1 point in that case.Does minimum damage apply to things that aren't attacks? From the context, it doesn't look like that.

Is falling to the ground the same as ground hitting you? (For I notice the minimum damage rules specify a hit.)

[Curmudgeon]

Is falling to the ground the same as ground hitting you? (For I notice the minimum damage rules specify a hit.)
It does have common characteristics:

It occurs on someone else's turn (the tripper's).
The damage is dependent on the contacting agent (weapon/impacting surface) and not your character. (Falling up to 20' into water causes no damage. Conversely, bigger characters don't take more damage.)
Avoiding the contacting agent (weapon/impacting surface) means your character doesn't take damage.

[molten_dragon]

Where are you getting that from? There's no "every 10 feet after the first" rule, except when you make Tumble or Jump rolls on your turn for deliberately falling. See Dungeon Master's Guide on page 303.

The other basic rule of course is that all fractions are rounded down. So if I fall 5 feet, that's half of 10 feet, which is rounded down to zero, meaning I take 0d6 falling damage. 0d6 is not the same thing as a penalty which reduces the damage to less than one, so the minimum damage rule doesn't apply.

[Curmudgeon]

0d6 is not the same thing as a penalty which reduces the damage to less than one, so the minimum damage rule doesn't apply.
I have no idea what that highlighted phrase means. There are no penalties here.

[molten_dragon]

I have no idea what that highlighted phrase means. There are no penalties here.

That's exactly my point, there are no penalties involved in a roll of 0d6.

Here's the text of the minimum damage rule:


If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

When you roll 0d6, penalties are not reducing the result to less than 1, so the minimum damage rule doesn't apply.

To equate it to an attack roll, a fall of less than 10 feet is essentially the same as an attack that missed, it simply doesn't do any damage.

[Fyermind]

Again, every time I've been tripped, I've fallen as a logical consequence, and as mentioned, RAW doesn't say you don't fall. I do believe that the rules say that if the rules don't cover something, you default to the way it works in the real world, do they not?

RAW doesn't work that way. Any time you bring verbage into the rules you are now using RAI.

If the rules don't mention a key term, then while things default to the way they work in the real world, they don't include that key term.

[Segev]

Except, of course, for the Minimum Damage rule, which says you take 1 point in that case.

No, it doesn't. It says that a PENALTY cannot lower it below 1. Not that 0d6 gets a minimum of 1.

There's no penalty.

You roll 0d6 and come up with no damage.

For your quote to apply, there would have to be a penalty reducing the die roll to less than 1. There isn't.