Encounter too Harsh/Unfair to Player(s)

[originalginger]

Okay so here is the idea for the encounter - In a 'Lost World" series of adventures, the party have found themselves in a environment of dense jungles, ferocious dinosaurs, and tribal primitives (mostly halflings and gnomes re flavored as stone age pygmies)

So the level 6-7 characters are in a series of caves, basically a subterranean jungle, and I want them to face a pack of Raptors.
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp335/TheDarkestShade/RaptorPackEncounterGroup.jpg

The Raptors are hiding in the underbrush, and the Beta Raptor has Throw to the Pack readied for the first character to come within range. If the Beta Raptor succeeds, three Pack Raptors descend upon that character and use Fierce Pounce.

If the character happens to become bloodied, which is very likely, the Alpha Raptor would move in and use Ferocious Pounce.

All in a single surprise round.

The idea is that a pack of Raptors on the hunt would likely attempt to work as a team to dispatch a single prey creature quickly before they could react. On the flip side, two of the PCs have pretty good perception scores, so it is reasonable that they might overcome the Raptor's stealth and see them. Also, the raptors would have used all their best actions right off the bat, and since they are only hunting they won't fight to the death, instead running away when bloodied, and if the Alpha or Beta Raptor is bloodied, the whole pack would run. The players would still earn the xp for the fleeing raptors.

Thoughts?

Edit - I had no idea the image would show up so large. Any way to reduce it's size?

[Epinephrine]

In a surprise round you have only a single action, so you can't run up to things and then use powers. So "comes within range" equals "stands adjacent to."

The raptors probably charge in the surprise round, getting only melee basic attacks off - it's if they win initiative that it gets nasty. Of course, five charge attacks could be pretty nasty anyway.

[ghost_warlock]

Technically, if it's a surprise round, the raptors would only get a single action so they can't do all of that unless those attacks can be used as part of a charge (which it doesn't look like they can).

Edit: Ninja'd. :smalltongue:

[originalginger]

I see... and confirmed in the Rules Compendium. Somehow I missed that rule, and we have never done it that way at all. That makes a difference.

Maybe I will have just do what I was planning when their turn comes up. They might win initiative anyway.

Edit - Actually I had a thought. What if I simply added "The Raptor leaps up to 4 squares and..." to the Pack Raptor.s Fierce Pounce ability, and just have them stay hidden until the Beta Raptor can get to the characters and do Throw to the Pack.

Either way, we play players first, then the monsters, players again, etc. so the raptors get their turns together, and I still think that they would want to separate on character from the group and gang up on him, rather than try to face all the PCs at once for an extended encounter. Maybe have them witness the raptors hunting one of the primitives from a distance before they actually face any, so at least they know that such things can happen?

[Excession]

I see... and confirmed in the Rules Compendium. Somehow I missed that rule, and we have never done it that way at all. That makes a difference.

Maybe I will have just do what I was planning when their turn comes up. They might win initiative anyway.

Edit - Actually I had a thought. What if I simply added "The Raptor leaps up to 4 squares and..." to the Pack Raptor.s Fierce Pounce ability, and just have them stay hidden until the Beta Raptor can get to the characters and do Throw to the Pack.

Either way, we play players first, then the monsters, players again, etc. so the raptors get their turns together, and I still think that they would want to separate on character from the group and gang up on him, rather than try to face all the PCs at once for an extended encounter. Maybe have them witness the raptors hunting one of the primitives from a distance before they actually face any, so at least they know that such things can happen?

It would be traditional for a single raptor to make itself seen, then back off when attacked, to lure the players into a pincer attack by the others. The other raptors stay stationary behind cover, making a stealth check each round, until the players are lured in or see them. You don't need to add "The Raptor leaps up to 4 squares" to the attack though; if the raptor is revealing itself mid-combat it's not a surprise round and they can move and attack as normal.

With the enemies 2 to 3 levels below the players I wouldn't worry about the encounter being too hard. The raptors are going to miss, do low damage, and get destroyed once the players can focus fire them. Worst case is if their healer is on point going into the ambush and goes down. Players will learn quite quickly not to do that once you hurt them for it; point man should be a defender or nimble striker.

Note that players should get a +2 to attack rolls if they respond to the reveal with "Clever girl" :smallwink:

[originalginger]

Note that players should get a +2 to attack rolls if they respond to the reveal with "Clever girl" :smallwink:

Thanks for the advice. Haha, yeah I would totally give a bonus if the players made Jurassic Park quotes, which is pretty likely since one of the players is a huge fan of the film, and dinos in general, In fact, she is the one who specifically requested a 'lost world' type adventure. When she saw the huge swaths of tropical rainforest on the world map, her first reaction was "Please tell me there are dinosaurs in there!"

Oh, and the Healer is a Dwarven Paladin with heavy armor, shield and axe in hand, so I think he would be okay. However, they have been sending the Druid out front in leopard form in hopes that she can scout ahead without raising the suspicions of the natives. That could be bad... I don't play nice with the players though, and play the monsters as I think they would actually act, so what happens happens.

[Yakk]

First, the monsters are pretty low level.

Second, the Skirmisher doesn't feel like a Skirmisher.

Third, the Raptors are too slow. Only one has speed 7+.

The Alpha Raptor should be a soldier: he's the big, stand-up guy, who faces down foes.

The Beta Raptor being a brute(leader) isn't bad, but the only real leader feature is that hiss, which is barely worth tracking.

Alpha Raptor:
Bite and Pounce should mark.
A tail swipe (opportunity attack only) should knock foes prone.
It can shift 1 as a free action once per turn when an adjacent foe shifts.
Pounce should be charge only.

Should have more HP as an elite?

Beta Raptor:
Harrowing Scream (minor, recharge 56): close burst 3, vs Will, push 1 and you grant combat advantage until the end of your next turn.
Inciting Hiss (move, recharge 56): Allies in close burst 5 can shift their speed.
Lockdown Bite: (standard) Standard, prone foes only. Bite and grab, target cannot stand up until grab ends. Beta raptor grants combat advantage to ungrabbed foes.

Pack Raptor:
Pounce should be charge only.
Bite damage reduce to 1d8+4, +1d8 on prone foes.

Tactics: The Raptors Fierce Pounce a target, then the rest run in and Bite. Beta Raptor pins the prone target to the ground. Alpha Raptor keeps other creatures away from the feeding frenzy.

Once the target is down, they will either try to defend their kill, or pick up the body and carry it off.