Bunch of rules questions

[justiceforall]

1. If used in melee, is a javelin a light weapon or a one-handed weapon? The SRD is unclear, and a quick google turned up nothing useful either.

2. Tormtor School feat -
If you deal damage on a melee attack with a javelin, you can then throw that javelin at any other target within 30 feet as a swift action (using your highest base ranged attack bonus).. Fairly obvious, but the way this is written you can't throw the javelin at the target you just attacked in melee right?

3. Undead barbarians? Bit random... but how does having no CON interact with Barbarian rage? All of a sudden I have this urge to unleash undead-berserkers on my players...

4. What happens when you bull rush someone into someone else and you are *not* a dungeoncrasher? Do you just stop, then move back 5ft to your own square? What happens to the shmuck you just pushed into a wall/person/etc? Once again, doesn't seem to be clearly spelled out in the SRD.

[Galvin]

1. Javelins are not listed in the official Light Weapons list on D&D Wiki. Thus, they are one handed weapons when used in melee.

2. You could, though you provoke an Attack of Opportunity from your foe because you made a ranged attack in a threatened area.

3. A barbarian Rage has a duration of 3+constitution modifier rounds. Thus, a barbarian with no constitution modifier would last 3 rounds.

4. If you knock someone into an object, you stop moving, as you cannot push someone through a solid stone wall, or through a space occupied by another person. While there not might be any RAW stuff on it, it is obviously RAI.

[mattie_p]

1. If used in melee, is a javelin a light weapon or a one-handed weapon? The SRD is unclear, and a quick google turned up nothing useful either.


1. Javelins are not listed in the official Light Weapons list on D&D Wiki. Thus, they are one handed weapons when used in melee.

Galvin, you are incorrect here. No rules specify whether the Javelin is a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon when used in melee. With several categories, lack of mention in one category does not mean it automatically falls into another. Ask your DM for what category it falls into (I'd suggest one-handed, but your DM might disagree).


3. A barbarian Rage has a duration of 3+constitution modifier rounds. Thus, a barbarian with no constitution modifier would last 3 rounds.

Yeah, this. I wanted to confirm with a rules citation, but Galvin is correct here:


Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0

[Greenish]

2. Since the feat specifies "any other target", no, you couldn't throw it at the enemy you attacked.

3. As above, but note that undead are immune to fatigued/exhausted, so if you have Rage uses left for the day (Extra Rage from Complete Warrior helps), you can just re-activate the rage.

[Hytheter]

3. As above, but note that undead are immune to fatigued/exhausted, so if you have Rage uses left for the day (Extra Rage from Complete Warrior helps), you can just re-activate the rage.

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter.

[Greenish]

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter.Huh, so it is. Weird.

[Edit]: Well, Complete Warrior also has Extend Rage feat, for +5 rounds (stacking with itself).

[mattie_p]

4. What happens when you bull rush someone into someone else and you are *not* a dungeoncrasher? Do you just stop, then move back 5ft to your own square? What happens to the shmuck you just pushed into a wall/person/etc? Once again, doesn't seem to be clearly spelled out in the SRD.

OK, so number four.


Bull Rush Results (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush)
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet.


Obstacles ...

On the other hand, some obstacles block movement entirely. A character can’t move through a blocking obstacle.



Ending Your Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm)
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

So if movement is blocked alltogether in some fashion, the target of the bull rush remains adjacent to the obstacle, and you (as the bull rusher) are one square back from that.

The rules do cover this topic:


Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#specialMovementRul es)
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

[Hytheter]

Well, Complete Warrior also has Extend Rage feat, for +5 rounds (stacking with itself).

That could be helpful, yeah.

Though it depends on how long you expect an encounter to last for. They might only be in melee combat for 3 rounds before being killed anyway, so the feat mightn't be strictly necessary.

By the way OP, it's worth noting that there are Barbarian ACF's that swap out the constitution boost for something else, which could be useful (since, again, no Con score).
Check out Ferocity. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Boosts STR and DEX, and has a longer duration too. Perfect for Undead.

Or you could use pathfinder Undead and add Cha to HP...

[justiceforall]

Though it depends on how long you expect an encounter to last for. They might only be in melee combat for 3 rounds before being killed anyway, so the feat mightn't be strictly necessary.

Given my undead berserkers wouldn't have a CON score to boost their hp, I'd expect more than 3 rounds of rage would be a non-issue...

[Hytheter]

Given my undead berserkers wouldn't have a CON score to boost their hp, I'd expect more than 3 rounds of rage would be a non-issue...

That's true, although they will have D12 hit dice, so they won't necessarily be flimsy either. And if you use Ferocity, as I mentioned above, they'll have a higher AC too.

[Greenish]

Given my undead berserkers wouldn't have a CON score to boost their hp, I'd expect more than 3 rounds of rage would be a non-issue...Toss in some undead that have Unholy Toughness and boost other undead, like Karrnathi Dread Marshal (The Forge of War), and TEAR YOUR PCS TO SHREDS!!!1!!!!!

[The Random NPC]

Ferocity. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)

As an added benefit, Ferocity lasts longer, and increases in length as you level.

[The Viscount]

Galvin, you are incorrect here. No rules specify whether the Javelin is a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon when used in melee. With several categories, lack of mention in one category does not mean it automatically falls into another. Ask your DM for what category it falls into (I'd suggest one-handed, but your DM might disagree).



Yeah, this. I wanted to confirm with a rules citation, but Galvin is correct here:

As for this one the closest I can find is text in Two-Weapon Fighting (the action, not the feat), of all places.
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon. Granted, this is technically only specifying how these weapons are used when thrown, but it's something we might use to inform our decision.

[Galvin]

Galvin, you are incorrect here. No rules specify whether the Javelin is a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon when used in melee. With several categories, lack of mention in one category does not mean it automatically falls into another. Ask your DM for what category it falls into (I'd suggest one-handed, but your DM might disagree).

The main D&D wiki article says javalins are one handed.

[mattie_p]

The main D&D wiki article says javalins are one handed.

Can you show me something that was published by WoTC that indicates this?

Here is the commonly referenced web-based SRD, that indicates that Javelins are Simple Ranged weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions).

I think you will find the official SRD (https://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Equipment.rtf) indicates the same.

At least The Viscount showed a rules citation that indicates javelins should be considered a one-handed weapon under certain circumstances. The bottom line is that all improvised weapons must be adjudicated by the individual DM for that game, because the rules say so.


Improvised Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons)
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Anything that is used as an improvised weapon uses these rules, unless the item itself indicates otherwise. The instructions that I bolded are for the DM to use.

Lastly, D&D Wiki can generally be full of what can at best be considered homebrew, at worst plagiarism and made-up rules. I don't recommend that you use that as a rules citation for this site, or any site, other than on that wiki itself.

[TuggyNE]

The main D&D wiki article says javalins are one handed.

The various wikis for D&D vary in quality from terrible to almost bearable, but none of them are really very suitable for rules references, due to their instability. Either the Hypertext d20 SRD (http://d20srd.org/), or WotC's own, should be used for the purpose; the former has the advantages of applying errata and linking pages usefully. (Or, of course, if you really majorly need the absolute gospel, compare the PHB's original printing with the RC and the 2012 printing and errata for all of those. A lot more tedious, generally, and only slightly more accurate.)

[Captnq]

Well, lets see...

The converted Halfspear from 3.0 to 3.5 turns out to be a light weapon at 1d3/1d4 damage. The spear is one-handed and does damage 1d4/1d6. The javelin does 1d4/1d6. That would indicate it is one handed.

And as pointed out above under two handed weapons, it's a one-handed throwing weapon. We have no reason to assume it becomes anything other then one-handed when it is used as a melee weapon.

[justiceforall]

So in summary, general consensus is thus far:

1. Javelin is a one handed weapon.

2. Tormtor School feat must choose an alternate target for the throw?

3. 3 rounds.

4. You stop and no other effect (thank you for the relevant SRD quote, must have missed it).

[Feytalist]

A bit of info on point 4:

The Shock Trooper feat, while it is mostly known for the heedless charge maneuvre, has another option: domino rush allows you, if you bull rush one enemy into another, to get a free trip attempt against both. Cool, yes? I've had some fun with this before.


Also, regarding point 3: wasn't there a feat or something that let undead use their Cha scores in place of Con for certain abilities? Or does that only apply to HP calculation.

[Ashtagon]

1. If used in melee, is a javelin a light weapon or a one-handed weapon? The SRD is unclear, and a quick google turned up nothing useful either.


http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html

Here, it is listed as a Medium-size thrown weapon for the 3.0e SRD. By 3.0 standards, that would make it a one-handed weapon for melee purposes. The size for melee purposes is undefined in the 3.5 and PF SRDs.



2. Tormtor School feat - . Fairly obvious, but the way this is written you can't throw the javelin at the target you just attacked in melee right?


Correct. It must be thrown at a different target.



3. Undead barbarians? Bit random... but how does having no CON interact with Barbarian rage? All of a sudden I have this urge to unleash undead-berserkers on my players...


3.0e, 3.5e: You get no Con bonus or bonus hit points. No bonus to rage duration based on Con.

PF: No bonus rounds per day for high Con. No bonus Con or bonus hp while raging. Most rage powers appear to be unaffected by not having a Con score.

All: It is questionable whether the various traits associated with being undead allow rage at all. I did not examine this part in detail.



4. What happens when you bull rush someone into someone else and you are *not* a dungeoncrasher? Do you just stop, then move back 5ft to your own square? What happens to the shmuck you just pushed into a wall/person/etc? Once again, doesn't seem to be clearly spelled out in the SRD.

Undefined by RAW.

[justiceforall]

Continuing on with the Tormtor School feat, how does it interact with the feat Hurling Charge? Specifically:


If you have the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge, you may make only one attack in addition to the thrown weapon attack.

The line above obviously precludes any sort of pounce ability, does it also prevent Tormtor School from triggering if you hit with your javelin?

[justiceforall]

Bump?

Anyone?

[The Viscount]

I would assume you could actually use the two in combination, so your action would be charge -> throw javelin -> draw javelin -> melee attack with javelin -> throw javelin at other target.

To me the thing that makes it viable is that Tormtor School doesn't give you multiple attacks on a charge, it lets you make a separate attack whenever you attack in melee with the javelin. Interpretaions may vary on this one, though.

[Pickford]

Galvin, you are incorrect here. No rules specify whether the Javelin is a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon when used in melee. With several categories, lack of mention in one category does not mean it automatically falls into another. Ask your DM for what category it falls into (I'd suggest one-handed, but your DM might disagree).

Yeah, this. I wanted to confirm with a rules citation, but Galvin is correct here:

Also note: "You can use it in melee, but not well. Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a -4 penalty on attack rolls if you use it as a melee weapon."

Suggestion for DM ruling on light vs one-handed: Weight.

Javelins weigh 2 lbs, with the exception of the Rapier and Whip 'all' listed one-handed weapons in the PHB are 3+lbs, whereas light weapons are (except for the light mace, pickaxe, and handaxe) 2lbs or less.

This suggests the javelin 'should' be treated as a light melee weapon.

Counter-argument: "This weapon is a light, flexible spear intended for throwing."

This suggests it is a spear, and thus two-handed (for melee)
edit: (although the shortspear which is slightly heavier is a one-hander)

[Ashtagon]

This suggests the javelin 'should' be treated as a light melee weapon.

Counter-argument: "This weapon is a light, flexible spear intended for throwing."

Better counterpoint: The 3.5 rules update notes that where something has not been updated, the 3.0 rules still apply and can be used. 3.0 defined the javelin as a Medium-size weapon, or in other words, under 3.0 it is treated as a one-handed weapon for Medium-size characters using it in melee. 3.5 never redefined the size in game terms, so the 3.0 definition remains valid.