Magic Systems you wish were in D&D

[CowardlyPaladin]

I always loved magic, specifically interesting ones with lots of options for players, room for creativity, and lots of interesting consequences for the rules. I like the D&D magic systems, but often times a lot of alternative magics are forced into the confines of the Vatician systems, which I like as a system, but I think multiple magic systems working together are better. So what are some magic system, be they from media, Third party systems, or other D&D games that you like, and wish existed in D&D either instead of, or alongside of the current magic systems (I'm talking 3.5/pathfinder here btw) Please include an explanation of them, and details of how they work.

1) My favorite system is RA Salvatore's DemonWar Saga Gemstone system. Essentially the totally not fantasy Catholic Church draws magic from gemstones, which fall from the sky in a specific location once every seven generation. Each of these stones have a different magic effect, Diamonds create Light, Ruby create fire, Graphite creates lighting, etc. Depending on the strength of the wielder depends how how powerful the effect is, and how much variety you have with the spells. So for example, a lode stone normally can be used to attract metal, such as making an enemies arrow go off target, or towards metal, such as launching hte stone at such a high speed it will smash a helmet and the head its on, but if your really powerful you can use it to repulse an entire group of armored knights. You can combine stones together for various effects, and you can use stones really creatively. Their are two types of casters, Gem Master you use the stones conventionally, and Gem Sorcerers who use the stones spiritually, allowing them to expand their effects far more creatively, but at the cost of flexibility (Gem Masters also have combat skills, while Gem Sorcerers do not) and risk of demonic procession and Earth magic which draws from stones that of a more demonic influence.

Effects on the World: Because magic is tied to a single limited source, controlled by a single religions organization, this is gives them a massive amount of power that rivals the state.

2) Bending, from Avatar the TV show. Do I even need to explain how this one works?


3) Mages from Dragon Age. I need to get to work, so I will explain that one later.

[Grinner]

2) Bending, from Avatar the TV show. Do I even need to explain how this one works?

That probably wouldn't work in D&D 3.5/Pathfinder, as they rely upon abilities being described as discrete effects.

Meanwhile, bending is very open-ended. In the series, waterbending was used for everything from cracking open icebergs, cutting steel girders, and healing. Imagine trying to list every possible use.

[Perseus]

That probably wouldn't work in D&D 3.5/Pathfinder, as they rely upon abilities being described as discrete effects.

Meanwhile, bending is very open-ended. In the series, waterbending was used for everything from cracking open icebergs, cutting steel girders, and healing. Imagine trying to list every possible use.

Actually there is some good Avatar 3.5 and 4e games (homebrew stuff that i havent used for years) that I've found to work. May need some work but a group of earth benders dropped an island on the main bad guy of the Avatar cartoon...

* if I find it I'll post a link.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I like this one. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36548716/Avatar-the-Last-d20-Supplement-MAIN-SOURCE)

[LibraryOgre]

That probably wouldn't work in D&D 3.5/Pathfinder, as they rely upon abilities being described as discrete effects.

Meanwhile, bending is very open-ended. In the series, waterbending was used for everything from cracking open icebergs, cutting steel girders, and healing. Imagine trying to list every possible use.

There was a system of free-form magic that came with the Dragonlance Saga system. While the system itself had some serious problems, the sorcery and mysticism systems were pretty solid, in concept. I did a conversion of them to 3.0, once upon a time.

[Lord Raziere]

Magic system, that I wish was in DnD….

Exaltation.

*is shot*

nevermind.

[Toy Killer]

I like the Black Company magic system, but it may be cheating as it is a D&D setting...

[Rhynn]

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World. You have stores of Mind and Spirit points (the sums of five Mental and five Spiritual attributes); each kind of magic uses one or the other. To cast a spell, you expend a number of points; to maintain a spell, you keep them expended. (To make an effect permanent, you permanently spend one or more points.) You can use rituals to draw power from locations of power. Spells are very broad, and knowing the true form of a spell is hugely powerful; most people (and I mean most, including farmers working the fields) just have charms or other magic items that let them use a very specific application of a spell (such as a make a dog stop barking charm based on the Incantation of Ruling - an example straight out of the rulebook). There's all sorts of awesome details, like alchemical operations and recipes. Invocations are particularly cool: by participating in rituals and offering up sacrifices (both physical and your own Spirit) you get Invocation Points, which you can use with a Prayer of Invocation to call upon a god's magic (Invocation Points are always to a specific Epithet of a deity, but each Epithet may have several invocations with different effects).

Witchcraft's Essence Pools, which actually has similarities to the above. I actually think a heavily Witchcraft-based Unisystem conversion would be awesome for e.g. Ravenloft.

Basically, magic with limits and costs. It makes for better games as well as better story and setting.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Could people go into more detail about their preferred magic systems?

Also I don't see why Avatar wouldn't work, just have higher DRs for how much more complicated the action is.


I think the Jade Empire Magic system is fantastic, but sadly not expanded upon.....sadly I have no idea how to explain it, which makes me a massive hypocrite I suppose


Has anybody heard of Ars Magicka or Warhammer Fantasy magic systems? I've heard they are extremely good but I never actually handled it.

[BWR]

Ars Magica could be imported with a little difficulty.

For thos unfamiliar with it, AM is a skill based system and magic is just another, very detailed and specialized set of skills. There are 15 skills, 5 Techniques and 10 Forms.

Techniques are
Creo: creating
Intellego: understanding
Muto: changing
Perdo: destroying
Rego: controlling

Forms are:
Animal:
Auram: air
Aquam: water
Corpus: body (human)
Herbam: plants
Ignem: fire
Imaginem: illusions
Mentem: mind-affecting
Terram: earth
Vim: raw magic

When you want to create an effect, you choose which combination of Form and Technique you want, check against a list of base Difficulties with increasing Difficulty depending on other factors like range, number of targets, duration, etc. If you want to throw a fireball, you'd choose Creo Ignem. If you want a cold ball, Perdo Ignem (destroy heat and you get cold). Disintegrate a person would be Perdo Corpus, but disintegrating an animal would be Perdo Animal and disintegrating a demon would be Perdo Vim.

You can make specific spells which do one thing or you can try making effects up on the fly. Casting requires a skill roll, adding your skill in Form and Technique with one ability score against the Difficulty of the effect you are trying to create.
Standard spells, or formulaic magic, has a standard Difficulty and effects on the fly, or spontaneous, doubles the Difficulty of the effect you're trying to create.
Also, each caster has a number of supporting skills for theri magic.
Parma is magic resistance. In addition to having to make the DC of the spell, you have to have enough more on your roll to get through Parma.
Penetration: get trhough Parma
Finesse: manipulate things with magic. Throwing rocks at people, using magic to tie your shoelaces, etc.

For d20
Use the same system of Form and Technique and give each level in Caster a certain number of points to increase these each level. It means you could have some very powerful one-trick ponies unless you put caps in place. A number of the effects would be harder to convert, considering the differing systems for damage and ability scores etc. Also, one might have to modify the human =/= animal thing to allow for other races.
Of course, d20 already has similar systems. The epic casting system is based on the same thing, if very wonky, and the Words of Power for Pathfinder do basically the same thing.

AM with a little modification works very well as a bending system. You can learn specific forms to do specific things (formulaic effects) or try to work something up on the fly (spontaneous). Flexible and fun.
The biggest problem is game time can get bogged down in trying to work out how difficult a certain spontaneous effect is (and worse, trying to find a useful spontaneous effect to do that you have a reasonable chance of managing).

[Laughingmanlol]

Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemolurgy, from the Mistborn series, would be interesting, as would Fullmetal Alchemist-style alchemy, and binding like in the Long Price Quartet. Sadly, all of these seem impossible to implement.

[Eldan]

Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemolurgy, from the Mistborn series, would be interesting, as would Fullmetal Alchemist-style alchemy, and binding like in the Long Price Quartet. Sadly, all of these seem impossible to implement.

Allomancy, at least, would be quite difficult in D&D. In other systems, maybe, but by the time the Allomancers are jumping around like Wuxia Jedi, it would become quite difficult to model in D&D. Especially keeping track of all the metal everywhere.

If we go with Sanderson, I'd instead like to suggest Warbreaker magic.

[Rhynn]

Has anybody heard of Ars Magicka or Warhammer Fantasy magic systems? I've heard they are extremely good but I never actually handled it.

Each edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has different magic systems. The 2E version is probably my favorite.

You get a varying number of dice (d10s), based on your Magic attribute (1-4 if you can cast spells), with some bonuses possible (usually for using forbidden magics). Spells have a value you need to hit by rolling those dice to cast it successfully (under 10 for easy spells, over 20 for harder spells). If you roll doubles (or triples, or quadruples, etc.), you get a spellcasting mishap (worse the more dice came up the same number) rolled on a table, ranging from minor manifestations to a screaming void opening up under you and swallowing you, or a rift in space disgorging demons.

It keeps magic unpredictable and risky - and players get to manage the risk (because you choose how many dice to roll out of your maximum; rolling more dice obviously means both a greater chance of success and a greater risk of doubles+). It can be extremely powerful (although not D&D-level), but it's never a first or only resort: a wizard will carry a sword.

[Black Jester]

What I'd like is a 'build your own power' spell construction kit where you can basically mix and match a various number of options to create spells of different complexity, power, casting time, strain on the caster and so on. Basically, this would allow you to create very specific custom-made spells for characters, would allow for spell researching and development to become a relevant part of the game and when the creation kit is well made, you can balance it actually quite well, by introducing questions like 'do I use this as a quick spell that requires little to no preparation time but is prone to fail or do I go for the slow but stable routine?' 'Do I want power or reliability?' 'Should i bind that spell to a fixed focus and thus make it easier but item-dependent?'

The best system for that officially published is probably Ghosts of Albion for the generally charming Unisystem. Magic is in general quite slow and ritualistic in that game and setting, which is always a good choice.

[Eldan]

That's pretty much how the system works - or used to work - in the war game too.

Up until last edition, a wizard had a level 1 to 4. For every wizard level you had on the table, you got one magic die, a d6, plus a few bonuses for things like items. A spell has a target value you have to hit and you decide how many dice you want to spend on each spell. However, if you roll two or more sixes, you get a mishap. Only, they all tend to be pretty catastrophic. Your opponent, similarly, gets a number of dispel dice based on his number of wizards.

I do like the kind of system where the mage can decide how much energy he wants to put in a power, but the more he puts in, the more dangerous it gets. Shadowrun does htat too.


You know what's also mostly missing? Sympathetic magic. More a principle, really, but one that's pretty much essential to all real world magical beliefs. It can be summed up as "similar things are connected". To affect an object, you affect a representation of an object in a similar way.
It's everywhere: the classic voodoo doll. Naming your warriors or ships after mystical beasts or strong animals to give them their strength. Cursing a person also curses their family. To grant success on the hunt, you draw a picture of the animal and throw spears at the picture. Having someone's blood or hair or name gives you control over them since it's a part of their being, so you can use it to affect the whole. You pray to a statue of your god, in a place that is related to their portfolio. One I once heard of was that you can banish nightmares by drawing a picture of your nightmare, then burning it.

And so on. D&D really... just doesn't do that, much.
On purpose, I guess, since I've seen it stated that people went with Vancian, because it's so unlike anything in the real world. Now, Vancian is very interesting, but, i you read the books it's based on, it's more scientific than mythical. There's willpower, understanding, mathematics, even, but not much strange mysticism.

There is a bit of it in the description of some material components or gestures required for spells, but not remotely enough.

[Rhynn]

Some of A:AKW's cool details include bonuses for taking various actions, often specific to the type of spell, such as...

Using a wax effigy or clay figure; using a token (e.g. hair) from the subject; knowing the name of the subject's mother; casting a ritual in the nude; writing a curse down on a lead tablet; using lead or iron nails when casting a curse; throwing salt for a warding; Dreaming in a graveyard, tomb, or temple, or under a deer skin; performing a Reading in a stone circle or cave; using a mirror to see over distances; summoning a ghost at its burial site; bathing in milk or a thermal spring during a Purification; making an Offering or Sacrifice before an appropriate statue or figure; wearing white for a Cult Ritual or black for an Occult Ritual; performing an Initiation in a cave ... and so on. There's definitely a lot of sympathetic magic involved there, although not as a primary system.

Given how the system works, it's easy to invent your own modifiers. I'd definitely give a bonus for, e.g., drawing a picture of your nightmare and burning it to help Exorcise the nightmare (nightmares are a type of pure Mind -entity in A:AKW that inflict Bindings - negative traits - when they possess you).

[Eldan]

And what's A:AKW? Because that sounds interesting.

[Rhynn]

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World.

I always abbreviate (acronymise?) it after the first time I mention it in a thread, because it is a pain to type out. But now I had to type out even more letters! And more! Oh, this is a vicious cycle...

[Eldan]

Ah, I see. Now, it should be said that D&D's Vancian magic does have costs, they are just implemented in a way that is rarely relevant in the game itself. First of all, spells have to be cast a long time before they are used. In theory, that would force a wizard to know or guess or divine what he will be needing much later and prepare. In effect, spells are way too broad for that. And then there's cost in time and money: wizards spend half a decade more, at least, studying than other classes. Their spellbooks are crazy expensive. The problem is, all that happens before the game starts, so it's not really relevant, except maybe for the type of backstory you can have.

[Lorsa]

Artesia sounds interesting, maybe I should look it up...

[Rhynn]

It's an awesome game based on an awesome comic (with somewhat R-rated art) - just don't expect any supplements for the game or any continuation for the comic, because apparently Mark Smylie is busy running Archaia Press (Mouse Guard, etc.) instead of working on either...

[SeekAndDestroy]

Truename magic.

*dodges rotten fruit*

[Black Jester]

Yes, Artesia:AKW is a generally very recommendable system and a good setting, but it is harsh to become familiar with the world. Oh, and it is generally speaking one of the more complex systems out there, with 20+ categories for XPs (which matter), and a complete intentional disregard for any forms of balancing.
I found the magic system about the least interesting part of the game though. It is not bad or anything but it is slightly overshadowed by the rest of the game.



Truename magic.

I'd actually liked the idea of truenaming magic. The implementation is not that good, but the basic concept is fine.

[Eldan]

True, but, well, what stops you from just taking the flavour and attaching it to basic D&D magic? After all, you already have verbal components, why can't there be truespeech in there? Why can't fireball contain the true name of fire? Or Control Undeath the true word for control and the true word for the state of undeath? And so on. It works pretty well.

[A_Man]

I really like Call of Cthulu d20 magic system, though one could convert CoC d20 into D&D with enough futzing.

[JoshuaZ]

Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemolurgy, from the Mistborn series, would be interesting

Stormageddon made a homebrew for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252937). It seems to have some resemblance although some aspects are not quite the same. There are clear difficulties with balance in terms of how Mistborn work in the books v. how they could work in a balanced game, and the combat system of D&D isn't really well adjusted for the complicated and details tactics that Mistborn sometimes use.

[Ravian]

Alchemy from the Fullmetal Alchemist Anime and Manga series. Incredibly open-ended yet defined by key rules (Law of equivalent exchange, matter can only be transferred in form) I've been searching for a good system for it for years (I've always had this dream of doing a FMA game) but nothing has ever really been able to grasp the versitality without going overboard on it. If I found a system for it, one that worked in d20, I would probably faint from sheer happiness.

[Platymus Pus]

Disgaea magic and skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzLjtWgsgo
I mean just look at that.

[Roguenewb]

The one I always want is channelling from the Wheel of Time. It is very hard to get it quite right, based on the fact that you have: powers active, biggest possible power, powers used today, type of power, and powers known; all as knobs to tweak on a character. Psionics can be rebuilt into a semi-decent approximation, if you use something like Wilder, but that isn't quite right either. The d20 WoT game system used spells in spell slots, like vancian, but you could slide a lot of the spells around in levels. So fireball might have a level 2 1d4/level form, a level 3 1d6/cl (normal version, which also dictates how you learn it), a level 4 1d6/cl that gives -4 to reflex saves, and so on. It also allowed you to make a concentration check and fort save to cast a higher level spell in a lower level slot, and to make low level slots from nothing. It was a decent gamist solution to chanelling but not a great simulationist solution.

The perfect system would be something like Grit from gunslinger, but highly changed. Something like:

-Make a check to embrace, based on check result and level, add X points to your pool.
-Weaving a level Y spell requires Z points. If the weave has a duration, those points are invested into the weave as long as it is maintained.
-At the beginning of each turn, regain a number of points based on level/stats up to a maximum of the X rolled above, minus Z points invested in any ongoing weaves.
-The maximum number of points that can enter your pool everyday are determined by class, level, and stats.
-Use concentration check/will save/fort save to add a number of points to your pool, or increase pool size above X.
-Use same concentration check/will save/fort save to weave a power without points.
-Use action to tie off ongoing weave, removing the Z penalty to pool size. Weave fades after amount of time determined by weave skill result.


And thats just a fraction of the rules, theres more that would need to exist.

[Rhynn]

There's actually a Wheel of Time d20 RPG.

[Roguenewb]

There's actually a Wheel of Time d20 RPG.

I know, I mention it in the post. The system is a decent start, but is lacking a lot, and most of the weaves suck.

[Laughingmanlol]

Stormageddon made a homebrew for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252937). It seems to have some resemblance although some aspects are not quite the same. There are clear difficulties with balance in terms of how Mistborn work in the books v. how they could work in a balanced game, and the combat system of D&D isn't really well adjusted for the complicated and details tactics that Mistborn sometimes use.

Interesting, thanks for linking it!

[Segev]

The one I always want is channelling from the Wheel of Time.

(...)

Something like:

-Make a check to embrace, based on check result and level, add X points to your pool.
-Weaving a level Y spell requires Z points. If the weave has a duration, those points are invested into the weave as long as it is maintained.
-At the beginning of each turn, regain a number of points based on level/stats up to a maximum of the X rolled above, minus Z points invested in any ongoing weaves.
-The maximum number of points that can enter your pool everyday are determined by class, level, and stats.
-Use concentration check/will save/fort save to add a number of points to your pool, or increase pool size above X.
-Use same concentration check/will save/fort save to weave a power without points.
-Use action to tie off ongoing weave, removing the Z penalty to pool size. Weave fades after amount of time determined by weave skill result.


And thats just a fraction of the rules, theres more that would need to exist.
Hm. Interesting.

You do tackle it fairly well here, but just as a test for the system and my memory, I am going to list (without referencing back to the quoted bit above) what I think the key narrative rules/limitations in WoT Channeling are:

Overall strength
Maximum amount you can hold from the Source
How it hurts you while holding too much
Burnout needs to be based on trying to hold too much too long, but not a "certain" mathematical thing
How long you can hold onto it
Ability to hold onto the Source through concentration
Talent with individual Elements
Strength of grasp for the Source (e.g. ability to shatter another's shield to gain hold of it)
How many weaves (spells) you can maintain/cast at once
Elements
Individual strength/talent with each
What each can be used for independently or together with others
Weaves (spells)
Extemporaneous, "new" effects
"known" or well-practiced effects
Complexity vs. strength
Maintenance
Tying off
How it feels
Differences between Saidar and Saidin
Mechanical distinctions for "embracing" vs. "seizing"
Enhancement of senses
Exultation and addiction
Risks of drawing too much due to not wanting to let go
Burning out
Holding too much too long
Trying to grasp too much
Trying to use a weave that's too strong
being Shielded
being Stilled/Gentled/Severed
the True Source (so similar, and yet so different)
The Taint on Saidin
Also how it feels, and interaction with the rest of the "feel" of Saidin
Physical effects
Mental effects
degeneration
(s)an'greal - increase the power that can be drawn at all as well as safely drawn
ter'angreal are mainly D&D-esq magic items

In particular, you're quite right in that fiddling with the strength with which one can draw, the safe amount one can draw, the difficulty of weaves, the exhaustion factors, and the various elements, all makes for some rather tricky mechanics to work out.

[Draz74]

Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemolurgy, from the Mistborn series, would be interesting, as would Fullmetal Alchemist-style alchemy, and binding like in the Long Price Quartet. Sadly, all of these seem impossible to implement.


Allomancy, at least, would be quite difficult in D&D. In other systems, maybe, but by the time the Allomancers are jumping around like Wuxia Jedi, it would become quite difficult to model in D&D. Especially keeping track of all the metal everywhere.

Actually, I think Feruchemy is the hardest one. Since in-game time isn't the same as player-time, it becomes way overpowered without some serious narrativist limits (like the Mistborn Adventure Game RPG uses).

(Stormageddon's homebrew is a noble attempt, and it preserves some of the feeling of Feruchemy, but it alters a LOT of details from the way the magic works in the books.)


If we go with Sanderson, I'd instead like to suggest Warbreaker magic.

Hey, that's what I was going to say! A good Awakening subsystem would be awesome.

Although now that I'm thinking of different Sanderson options ... if we had a functional Truenaming system, it would be somewhat trivial to convert it into AonDor rules from Elantris. Basically the same thing, except in written form.

[Eldan]

Feruchemy would be waaay powerful without magic, yes. But you could pretty easily build it in D&D. At least most powers. Storing strength? Easy. I could even think up limits for it. Just limit how much you can put in at once.

"Lower your strength by 4 for X hours, later increase it by 4 for X hours. Alternatively, increase strength by 8 for X rounds".