Haste and Natural Attacks

[Silva Stormrage]

Hello, a quick rule question. I understand that you can't get iteratives with natural weapons without rapid strike or something similar. But if a creature is buffed with haste what happens when the creature has natural attacks?

Such as a human zombie, a shadow or wraith, or frankly a dragon? Would they gain no extra attack? If they do does the dragon gain an extra attack with his primary weapon or any of his natural attacks?

Does haste's clause that states that it gives an extra attack extra attack with any weapon the target is holding negate natural attacks? What about righteous wrath of the faithful?

Any help would be appreciated.

[EvilJames]

I would think that if the only attacks were natural attacks then the creature would get i extra attack with it's primary attack.

[LanSlyde]

As far as I am aware, the rules are silent on this particular instances. But it would not much of a stretch to assume that a hasted zombie would get an additional slam or a dragon getting an additional bite.

[KillianHawkeye]

Nope.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.

Creatures not holding weapons, or not attacking with whatever weapons they are holding, will not receive this particular benefit of the Haste spell.

[Silva Stormrage]

Nope.


Creatures not holding weapons, or not attacking with whatever weapons they are holding, will not receive this particular benefit of the Haste spell.

What about a similar ability such as righteous wrath of the faithful?

[KillianHawkeye]

What about a similar ability such as righteous wrath of the faithful?

If the description I found on the Internet is accurate, that one isn't limited to weapons. It's also a much higher level spell, FWIW.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I would point out that a Clay Golems, Nightshades and several other natural attack creatures get haste as a spell-like-ability. Its kinda a stupid spell to give them if its not granting them an extra attack.

The wording "whatever weapons they are holding" doesn't work. A medium sized creature could hold a weapon far to large for him to wield but if you take the wording of haste literally they could attack one with it so long as it was part of a full-attack.

An Unarmed Strike can be done with any part of your body so if I hold my head that would allow me to make an additional headbutt... so again the word holding doesn't work.

A zombie slams with it body so all a zombie needs to do is hug itself in order to benefit from haste.

[Silva Stormrage]

I would point out that a Clay Golems, Nightshades and several other natural attack creatures get haste as a spell-like-ability. Its kinda a stupid spell to give them if its not granting them an extra attack.

The wording "whatever weapons they are holding" doesn't work. A medium sized creature could hold a weapon far to large for him to wield but if you take the wording of haste literally they could attack one with it so long as it was part of a full-attack.

An Unarmed Strike can be done with any part of your body so if I hold my head that would allow me to make an additional headbutt... so again the word holding doesn't work.

A zombie slams with it body so all a zombie needs to do is hug itself in order to benefit from haste.

Honestly this seems more RAI. Except of course zombies can't full attack so they can't gain a benefit from haste regardless :smalltongue: But otherwise I think this is how I think I am going to go for this.

[Psyren]

FWIW, PF Haste explicitly grants its benefits to manufactured or natural attacks.

It also lets you choose the weapon (either kind) that gets the bonus attack. This can be helpful if, say, your primary natural attack is subject to DR or some other restriction and your secondary is not.

[TuggyNE]

I would point out that a Clay Golems, Nightshades and several other natural attack creatures get haste as a spell-like-ability. Its kinda a stupid spell to give them if its not granting them an extra attack.

How do you know that wasn't just for the attack/AC/Reflex/move speed boosts? And nightshades get to summon allies to add those bonuses to as well.

It probably should, reasonably, allow one natural attack form to gain one extra attack, but RAW and even RAI don't support it for 3.x.

[Teron]

It might also be a holdover from 3.0, when haste gave an extra action (I don't have a 3.0 MM to check).

[Lord Vukodlak]

How do you know that wasn't just for the attack/AC/Reflex/move speed boosts? And nightshades get to summon allies to add those bonuses to as well.
Because that +1 bonus isn't worth the effort, and the allies a nightshades summons don't hold weapons either which only further supports the extra attack applies to to natural weapons.


It probably should, reasonably, allow one natural attack form to gain one extra attack, but RAW and even RAI don't support it for 3.x.

How does RAI not support it?

Edit: Furthermore the Draconomicon says on page 66 that dragons love haste not just because extra attack it gives but because of the other bonuses.

[TuggyNE]

How does RAI not support it?

Because there is no unambiguous way to be sure that that was intended; haste that doesn't do "as much" to its targets as normal is not self-evidently useless, so you can't be sure it wasn't intended. In fact, you can't even get to "beyond reasonable doubt", since 4/5 of the spell's effects still function just fine. (Usually, those four are less significant than the fifth, but they're not useless by any means, even individually; +1 to attack/limited Will saves is worth a first-level spell, after all, as is +30 move speed to one target, so +1 to attack/Reflex saves/AC/+30 move speed all at once to multiple targets is at the very least a 2nd level spell, and maybe worth a weak 3rd level slot.)

Now, if it was "clay golems get spell resistance 3/day" or something, that would obviously suggest that they expected it to do something somehow, because otherwise it would be utterly useless in the strict sense. But haste is nowhere near so obvious.


Edit: Furthermore the Draconomicon says on page 66 that dragons love haste not just because extra attack it gives but because of the other bonuses.

Interesting. That does suggest something more of their intent. Any idea from context whether it was supposed to be one extra attack or one for each natural weapon? Also, per Teron, any idea whether they were still assuming 3.0-style haste?

[Psyren]

I would make it just one extra attack but let them pick the natural weapon they got to use it with. That's how PF appears to do it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Interesting. That does suggest something more of their intent. Any idea from context whether it was supposed to be one extra attack or one for each natural weapon? Also, per Teron, any idea whether they were still assuming 3.0-style haste?

I didn't want to quote a non-srd book for obvious reasons but as to the context it says "the extra attack" when making a full attack so just one. They then go on to list each bonus from the 3.5 version of haste and why a dragon enjoys it. So clearly they couldn't have been thinking of the 3.0 version of haste if they list all the effects of the 3.5 version.

[Silva Stormrage]

Interesting. That does suggest something more of their intent. Any idea from context whether it was supposed to be one extra attack or one for each natural weapon? Also, per Teron, any idea whether they were still assuming 3.0-style haste?


Isn't Draconomicon 3.5 anyway?

[TuggyNE]

I didn't want to quote a non-srd book for obvious reasons but as to the context it says "the extra attack" when making a full attack so just one. They then go on to list each bonus from the 3.5 version of haste and why a dragon enjoys it. So clearly they couldn't have been thinking of the 3.0 version of haste if they list all the effects of the 3.5 version.

Puzzling.


Isn't Draconomicon 3.5 anyway?

I thought so, but it's clear that sometimes writers have gotten confused anyway.

[Feytalist]

So apparently, the rules use the term "natural weapon" pretty consistently when talking about natural attacks.

This might or might not be of help, given the haste description.

[Segev]

I will say that, for one's own table, I do not think it would be broken to rule that Haste could allow a single extra natural attack on a full attack. (But still only +1 attack, total, whether natural or manufactured.)

[Zombimode]

How do you know that wasn't just for the attack/AC/Reflex/move speed boosts? And nightshades get to summon allies to add those bonuses to as well.

Extremely unlikely. Clay Golmes are older then D&D 3.5 and they always had the self-haste power in all previous editions of D&D. And in those editions, haste didn't improve saves, AC or AB. In those editions the haste power explicitly gave extra attacks to creatures with natural weapons - like a golem.

So the more likely course of events would be that the haste power of the clay golem was taken over from previous editions and the loss of functionality was an oversight.

[TuggyNE]

Extremely unlikely. Clay Golmes are older then D&D 3.5 and they always had the self-haste power in all previous editions of D&D. And in those editions, haste didn't improve saves, AC or AB. In those editions the haste power explicitly gave extra attacks to creatures with natural weapons - like a golem.

Well, all previous editions of AD&D, yes. Chainmail and Basic, not so much (http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/04/spells-through-ages-haste.html). But yeah, fair enough; I guess it's likely to be a mismatch of rules and expectations.

[Greenish]

Except of course zombies can't full attack so they can't gain a benefit from haste regardless :smalltongue:Now, now, we just need to figure out a way to give the zombies pounce. :smallamused:

[Big Fau]

I thought so, but it's clear that sometimes writers have gotten confused anyway.

A hypothesis I have is that several of 3.5's early books (BoED and Draconomicon specifically) were actually wrote around the same time as Savage Species, but intentionally held back from production and updated when they decided to update 3.0.

[Silva Stormrage]

Now, now, we just need to figure out a way to give the zombies pounce. :smallamused:

Awaken undead gives pack (Ex) abilities so that actually works. Just get a lion or some other animal that has pounce.

[ericgrau]

Another issue with golems and zombies. Haste is fortitude negates...
Saw that in a 10 year old 3.0 to 3.5 conversion thread. Looks like they caught it just in time to let in harmless effects.

[Keneth]

A lot of D&D rules are written in the context of standard player characters which don't have natural attacks. Clearly "any weapon he is holding" isn't meant to be exclusively limited to manufactured weapons, it's just a figure of speech which is supposed to clarify that you can perform an extra attack with any of your weapons.

[Keld Denar]

A lot of D&D rules are written in the context of standard player characters which don't have natural attacks.

Like grappling?