Spell DCs scaling with spell level - just a nerf for spontaneous casters?

[Cybris75]

While planning which feat next to take for my wizard, I thought about Heighten Spell, but rejected it because I have powerful spells in high-level slots already. Most of my low-level spells can be replicated by high-level spells, often with free secondary effects. Heighten doesn't let you use your low-level slots for anything better, so it's kind of useless to me. I just prepare no-save stuff and utility spells there.

But then I thought about classes with less flexibility in their spell selection. A sorcerer must be really carefull with picking spells known, and should select spells with lots of versatility. This means that every spell known counts, even the low-level ones. But if those have a save, you need to buff your DCs.

So, is Heighten Spell just a feat tax for spontaneous casters?

And to add insult to injury, they don't even get metamagic feats for free. I'm almost thinking about giving sorcerers, beguilers, etc. Heighten Spell for free at our table, but then I remember that mundanes are even worse off and think about nerfing the wizard instead by limiting spell access.

[Psyren]

Actually, putting a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot does not increase its spell level, and therefore does not change its DC. Only Heightening the spell does that, so both prepared and spontaneous casters need HS to scale their spells up in truth.

For example, if your wizard prepares Fireball in a 4th-level slot, it is still a 3rd-level spell - the save DC will still be 10 + 3 + Int, rather than 10 + 4 + Int. Only Heightened Fireball will truly get to 4th-level (or above.)

As far as low-level spells becoming less useful, that's why spontaneous casters periodically get to swap out some of their low-level spells. But they only get to do this a few times - that danger is one of the drawbacks of playing a spontaneous caster, forcing you to pick as many spells that will be useful throughout your career as possible.

Note that one of the "safe" uses of Wish is to swap out one of your spells known, per ELH.

[Cybris75]

Actually, putting a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot does not increase its spell level, and therefore does not change its DC.

I know how it works. My point was that wizards have better spells in those slots already, that do the same thing but moar.


that danger is one of the drawbacks of playing a spontaneous caster, forcing you to pick as many spells that will be useful throughout your career as possible.

Yes, that's what I mean. As if sorcerers already being half a spell level behind and having just one class feature (that wizards also have), and no bonus feats, wasn't bad enough.


Note that one of the "safe" uses of Wish is to swap out one of your spells known, per ELH.

But the wizards can do it just by spending some gold! When a wizard needs a new spell, s/he just buys it (DM permitting), scribes it, and also gets to keep the old one!

[DarkSonic1337]

I think he was implying that the wizard simply learn a higher level, similar spell if he wishes to maintain the effect. Then he delegates the lower level slots to other duties.

The sorcerer, being much less flexible with his spells does not have this luxury. He can't as easily afford to "upgrade" his spells by just picking better versions and casting something different in the lower slot.


I think giving them heighten spell as a bonus feat is a neat trick, but do be clear about whether or not you're okay with the early prc entry tricks that become available with that feat before some player tries to take advantage of that :p

[Just to Browse]

Indeed, sorcerers are weak compared to wizards, and heighten spell is a war crime. Allowing players to use their low-level SoDs in high-level slots encourages assaying options instead of just ignoring low-level attack spells. If you gave this out, it would help spontaneous casters a lot by granting them some horizontal power. It would help wizards a little bit, but not as much, because wizards already have horizontal power which means it offers diminishing returns.

Unfortunately, casters are strong as-is and giving them a buff (even a horizontal power buff) isn't nice to everybody else. I would make a League of Legends reference here, but I'm not sure if you'd get it / care.

In an ideal world, I think all DC's would be something like 10 + 1/2 lvl + stat, but you'll need to fix the mundane-magic disparity to do that.

[Psyren]

Yes, that's what I mean. As if sorcerers already being half a spell level behind and having just one class feature (that wizards also have), and no bonus feats, wasn't bad enough.

Oh I agree - but then, I play PF where sorcerers got a number of goodies (bloodline powers, free spells, eschew materials, UMD etc.) to address the discrepancy. If you feel Sorcerers got the short end of the wand, those buffs should be pretty easy to port over.

[fluke1993]

Sorcerers are overpowered? Better nerf Irelia!!!

[Just to Browse]

❤ extra words to make this post allowable

[Maginomicon]

This is why in my main setting I give sorcerers Metamagic Access (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284296).