Sorcerer Redux: My personal take [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-03, 03:21 AM

Okay, this is oh-gods-not-yet-another-attempt at a Sorcerer which actually functions properly. This was also originally submitted to Fax for d20r, but I don't think he decided to incorporate it into his project. It has been edited slightly from its original format to remove rules specific to the d20r system which do not apply in a regular d20 game.

I'm going into this class rewrite with these basic concepts, taken from the 'flavor text' from Sorcerer base class that, mechanically, was pretty much ignored:

1) Sorcerers produce magical effects because of some innate ability. So they're using spells, that are innate. So some kind of innate spell-like ability. Wait a sec... isn't there some kind of Special Ability called a Spell-Like Ability (SP)? Yea, let's use those.

2) Sorcerers gain their powers from their bloodlines and heritage. This is another way you can customize your character, without it going overboard.

3) What balances a Sorcerer is that they have a limited number of effects they can produce. This was actually more of a limiting factor compared to a wizard than the developers originally realized, and I like this. However, there needs to be flexibility so all characters of the same class don't look identical. Therefore, I'm going to be introducing some customizable features

4) As they grow in power, so do their effects. In 3.5, this produced a 'Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard' problem. So I'm going to make their progression more linear and less quadratic

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Sorcerer
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special

1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Arcane Senses (Detect Magic), Knack

2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Bloodline ability, Knack

3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 |

4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Knack

5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Arcane Senses (Arcane Sight)

6th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Bloodline ability, Knack

7th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Arcane Senses (Detect Scrying)

8th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +6 | Knack

9th | +4 | +3 | +3 | +6 |

10th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Arcane Senses (Arcane Sight, Greater), Knack

11th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Bloodline Ability

12th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8| Knack

13th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 |

14th | +7/+2 | +4 | +4 | +9 |Knack

15th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +9 | Arcane Senses (True Seeing)

16th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | Bloodline Ability, Knack

17th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 |

18th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Knack

19th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 |

20th | +10/+5 | +6 | +6 | +12 | Knack[/table]

HD: d4
Skills: As per Sorcerer
Proficiencies: As per Sorcerer. Knacks are Spell-Like Abilities, and thus are unaffected by Arcane Spell Failure.
Spellcasting: Sorcerers use Knacks, which are effectively Spell-Like Abilities usable at-will. They can Enhance knacks with Enhancement Points (EP) to permanently augment that knack in specific ways. However, Sorcerer is considered to be an arcane spellcasting class, so PrC's which give + Spellcaster Level increases their Knacks, EP, and AP. The effective Spell Level for all of a Sorcerer's knacks is equal to 1/2 HD. The save DC's are the standard 10+Spell Level + Cha Mod.

Arcane Senses (Su): A Sorcerer is born in magic, and can see it as easily as you or I see color.

At 1st level, he can use Detect Magic at will.
At 5th level, he is considered to have Arcane Sight always on, although he cannot share it with anyone.
At At 7th level, he can feel the presence of someone trying to Scry him, as per Detect Scry
At 10th level, he effectively has Greater Arcane Sight always on
At 15th level, he can see through all illusions and see things as they really are. Treat this as a True Seeing effect which is always on.

Bloodline ability - At 2nd level, the Sorcerer's bloodline begins to manifest itself.

Abyssal - One of your ancestors was a Demon of some kind. You increase the effective caster level of any Knack which applies a penalty or negative condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) by 4.

Celestial - One of your ancestors was an Outsider with the [Good] subtype. You increase the effective caster level of any knack with Save: None (Harmless) by 4.

Draconic - One of your ancestors was a Dragon of some kind. You increase the damage dealt by +1/die

Infernal - One of your ancestors was a Devil. Increase the DC of all Knacks by 1.

At level 6, you grow wings and gain Flight (average maneuverability). Wings appear to be appropriate to your ancestry (feathered for Celestial, batwings for infernal/abyssal, etc...)

At level 11, you gain Energy Resistance equal to 1/2 your Character Level in an energy flavor of choice.

At level 16, your type changes to your ancestor's. Thus a Dragon heritage type would change to Draconic, and an Abyssal, Celestial, and Infernal heritage would change to the Outsider type.

Augmentation Points: Sorcerers have a daily pool of Augmentation Points. These augmentation points can be used to enhance a Knack. Each expenditure of AP affects one instance of a Knack. Thus if you spend AP to Empower a Magic Bolt, then that one casting of Magic Bolt is empowered, and those AP are expended. You may only apply ONE augmentation to any given knack, and it may only be applied once.

A Sorcerer has a number of Augmentation Points equal to his Base Caster Level.

List of Augmentations:
Empower (4 points) - This increases all variable numeric effects of the spell by 50%
Range (3 points) - This increases the range of the Knack by one step, as follows: Personal -> Touch -> Close -> Medium -> Long. Applying this to a Knack with Long or longer range doubles the range.
Extend (3 points) - This increases the duration by one step, as follows: Rounds/lvl -> Min/Level -> 10min/lvl -> Hour/lvl -> 24 hours. Applying this to a Knack with a duration of 24 hours or longer doubles the duration. This does not affect a Knack with a Duration of less than Rounds/lvl
Heighten (2 points) - Increases the DC of the Knack by +1
Maximize (5 points) - All variable, numeric effects of a Knack are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Quicken (8 points) - Knack is used as a Swift action
Repeat (8 points) - Knack's effect is produced on the following round with all declared variables identical. Declared variables include targets and area placement.
Widen (5 points) - You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped Knack to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%. This cannot be applied to a Knack which does not have an Area type listed.

As a clarification: Augmentations are used on-the-fly and are from a daily pool which is renewed daily. Enhancements are permanent alterations and must be purchased per knack.

Knacks: - Magic in the blood, innate abilities which Sorcerers produce with seemingly little effort. Knacks can individually have EP invested in them for specific Enhancements, which are permanent, and can use Augmentation Points on the fly to alter them still further on an individual-use basis.

A Sorcerer gains a Knack at 1st level and every even level thereafter.

Unless otherwise specified, all Knacks are a full-round action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. All Knacks, unless otherwise specified, are subject to Spell Resistance.

Knacks may be purchased more than once. Enhancements are tracked separately. Thus you could have purchased Magic Bolt twice, one augmented with Supernatural Enhancement and Power, the other with several Area and Energy Substitute options. So you have a single-target blast that is probably going to land and hurt, and one that has a lot of flexibility, but is subject to SR and doesn't hit as hard.

Charge Weapon - The Sorcerer charges a weapon with elemental energy. Range: Personal
Target: Weapon touched
Save: None (Harmless)
Duration: Rounds/level

Charges your weapon with elemental energy. This gives your weapon +1d6 Fire damage, and this increases every by +1d6 4 levels. This charge immediately dissipates if the weapon leaves your hands (unless you Enhance it with Reach greater than Personal).

Elemental substitution allows you to choose a different energy flavor of choice.

Cold and Lightning are considered 'lesser' energy substitutions, acid and sonic are 'greater'.

Enhancements - Chain, Duration, Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Power, Reach, Supernatural Ability, Speed

Cripple - The sorcerer weakens an opponent by targeting the essence which propels itRange: Close
Target: 1 target
Save: Fort negates
Duration: Rounds/Level

This ranged touch attack applies a penalty to Strength equal to 1/2 your Caster Level.

Energy Substitution allows you to affect a different stat. Energy Admixture allows you to affect multiple stats at the same time. Please keep in mind that this is a penalty, not stat damage. Thus a penalty to Con does not reduce current or maximum HP, but would affect things like Fort saves or Con-dependent skill checks. A penalty to a casting stat does not reduce their bonus spells per day, but does affect which ones they may cast.

Area gives this an additional Ref/half saving throw. This means if they make the Fort save, the effect is negated. If the Fort is failed, but the Ref is successful, then they take half the effect.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Duration, Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Reach

Disrupt Magic - Having in innate feel for magic, a Sorcerer may also disrupt its flowRange: Close
Target: 1 target
Save: CL check
Duration: Instantaneous

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If you target a spellcaster who is currently casting a spell, you may make a Dispel Check to disrupt the casting of the spell.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Area: If you choose the Area enhancement, it works slightly differently than most area-effect spells. You may choose to use one of the area-effect shapes normally, in which case it does not affect magic items, or you can choose, as an additional shape option, to have it only affect a single square, in which case it affects all magic items and spells within that square. You may not disrupt casting with an area-effect or chain version of this Knack. Area does not grant this Knack a Ref/half save.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Reach, Speed

Far Hand - Moving objects at a distance
Range: Close
Target: One unattended object, or see text
Save: None for unattended objects, or see text
Duration: Concentration or Instantaneous, see text

The Sorcerer can move a single unattended object weighing 5 lbs/CL by 15' per round as a move action each round. In addition, the Sorcerer can manipulate objects which are unattended in a similar manner to the cantrip Open/Close.

If the Power Enhancement is taken, the weight limit is multiplied by 10 (50 lb/CL), and gains the combat options of the spell Telekineses (Combat Maneuver and Violent Thrust options). The amount of weight able to be used for Violent Thrust is halved to match the weight limit of 25lb/CL of the spell itself.

Furthermore, the Power Enhancement enables fine manipulation, which may be done through this Knack, enabling the user to make any Open Locks, Disable Device, Slight of Hand, or Use Rope skill checks in conjunction with this Knack, however the Sorcerer must make an additional Spellcraft check with the same DC as the skill check being used in order to maintain the fine level of control necessary. Failing the Spellcraft check will cause the related skill check to automatically fail, with all the repercussions therein.

Enhancements: Range, Power, Duration

Hinder - Invisible bonds of arcane energy entangles target Range: Close
Target: 1 target
Save: Ref/negates
Duration Rounds/Level

Targets who fail the save are entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled). The DC on Concentration checks to cast while entangled is (10+1/2 HD+Mod).

If the Power enhancement is chosen, this becomes a Root effect. The target cannot move, although can still attack and defend normally. The penalties on attack rolls and Dexterity are doubled (keep in mind that penalties do not stack), and the target automatically fails Reflex saves (since he cannot move out of the way). The Concentration check to cast spells while entangled is still in effect.

If the Area enhancement is chosen, then it does not gain a second Ref/half option. If the Reflex save is made, the effect is avoided entirely. All creatures which are affected by this are affected, regardless of where they may move, however those who make the original saving throw are not affected by this effect in the least.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Duration, Power, Reach, Supernatural Ability

Magic Bolt - The Sorcerer produces a bolt formed from raw magic.Range: Close
Target: 1 Target
Save: None
Duration: Instantaneous

Deals 1d6 Fire damage per Caster Level to target on a ranged touch attack. There is no cap on the damage, except the caster level.

Energy Substitution allows you to choose a different elemental flavor of choice.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Duration, Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Power, Reach, Speed, Supernatural Ability

Mindlock - The Sorcerer twists the target's perception of reality, preventing him from taking action
Range: Touch
Target: 1 target
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 round

Target that fails save is Dazed. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Enhancements: Area, Chain, Duration, Reach

Obscure - The sorcerer makes himself harder to see
Range: Personal
Target: 1 target
Save: None (Harmless)
Duration: rounds/level

Target gains Concealment miss chance of 5% per 1/2 CL (maximum 50%).

If the Power enhancement is chosen, it renders the target Invisible instead. This will not be a 'fragile' effect.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Duration, Power, Reach

Protect - The Sorcerer summons protective forces around himselfRange: Personal
Target: 1 target
Save: None (Harmless)
Duration: Rounds/level

This spell grants an armor bonus to AC equal to 1/4 CL. This is a Force effect.

If the Energy Substitution enhancement is chosen, it changes the type of bonus. Shield and Natural Armor bonus to AC are a Minor effect, Deflection bonuses are a Major effect. These are the only types of bonuses which may be given.

Different bonuses from this Knack explicitly stack with each other. Thus you could use this Knack to provide both a shield bonus to AC and a Natural Armor bonus to AC from different castings.

Enhancements: Chain, Duration, Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Reach

Resistance - The Sorcerer protects himself against magicRange: Personal
Target: 1 target
Save: None (Harmless)
Duration: Rounds/Level

This Knack grants a Resistance bonus to saving throws against all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities equal to 1/4 CL.

Enhancements: Chain, Duration, Reach

Retch - The Sorcerer twists the essence of the target, causing wracking pain and nausea
Range: Touch
Target: 1 target
Save: Fort negates
Duration: 1 round

Target becomes Nauseated

Augments: Area, Chain, Duration, Reach

Slow - A sorcerer alters his opponent's perception of time
Range: Close
Target: 1 target
Save: Will negates
Duration: rounds/level

Target gains a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves per 1/4 CL. Target also has to choose between a Move or a Standard action while this is in effect. He may not make a full-round action, but he still has his Swift action.

If you choose the Power enhancement, then you also reduce the number of attacks the target has by 1 (minimum one attack) for their attack action.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Duration, Power, Reach

Speed - A Sorcerer augments his perception of timeRange: Personal
Target: 1 target
Save: None (Harmless)
Duration: Rounds/level

Target gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves per 1/4 CL. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Target also gains a +10 Enhancement bonus to speed equal to 1/3 CL. This is considered to be a Haste effect and does not stack with any other Haste effects.

If you choose the Power enhancement, this also gives the target an additional attack at the highest attack bonus when making an attack action. This is considered to be a Haste effect, and does not stack with any other Haste effects.

Enhancements - Area, Chain, Duration, Power, Reach

Enhancements: - These are purchased with Enhancement points (EP). Enhancements may be purchased for any Knack currently known by the Sorcerer, however purchases are permanent and may not be changed once spent. Enhancements are purchased per Knack, you are effectively giving that knack additional options. Each knack has a maximum of (CL + 3) EP which may invested in it at any given time. Enhancement costs add together to count to this limit.

The Sorcerer may decide at any time when to use or not use any Enhancement she has purchased for her Knacks.

A Sorcerer gains one Enhancement Point (EP) per level, then gains bonus EP equal to 1/2 Charisma Mod (maximum bonus of +4) per level. Bonus EP are gained retroactively. Thus if a Sorcerer were to hit level 8 and her Charisma went from 21 to 22, her Charisma mod would go from +5 to +6, and would retroactively gain 7 EP so that her total current EP is equal to (1+3)*8=32. This is to make bookkeeping easier for making higher-level characters.

As an example: A 1st level Sorcerer with a Charisma of 18 has 3 EP to spend. He decides to take Magic Bolt, and the Area (Sphere) Enhancement for that Knack, spending 2 EP to do so. Now he can use his Magic Bolt either as a Ranged Touch Attack or as a Sphere spread with Ref/half. This leaves him with 1 EP left 'in the bank'.

Next level, he decides to pick up Retch. He's got 4 EP to spend (1 from last level he didn't spend and 3 from this level). He decides to pick up the Duration enhancement for Retch. So now his options are: 2d6 Fire damage in either a ranged touch attack or area-effect for Ref/half, or a touch attack which is Fort save or Nauseated for two rounds.

At level 8, this Sorcerer picks up a Charisma of 20, then also manages to score a Tome of Leadership and Understanding +2, for a total Charisma of 22. This increases his Charisma Modifier to +6, which means he gets 7 retroactive EP which he can spend in any way he wishes in addition to the 4 EP normally gained this level.

Enhancements List:
Area (2 Prowess) - Choose one of: cone, cylinder, line, or sphere. You may change the Target to Area: Spread of the chosen type. Cylinder has a Radius of 10' and a Height of 40'. Sphere has a radius of 10', Line uses a range of twice listed for the Knack, Cone uses the range listed in the Knack. This cannot be applied to a Knack with a Range of less than Close.

This adds a Save of Reflex/half which is checked before any saving throw the Knack might have. If the Knack already has a saving throw before Area is applied, then a successful Reflex save has the same effect as having made that saving throw.

You may purchase this Enhancement multiple times. Each time you do, it gives you an additional option, but you may only apply one Area to a given Knack at a time.

Chain (6 Prowess) - This allows you to affect multiple targets. Choose a primary target, then a number of secondary targets equal to your CL, which must be in Range of the primary target. The primary target takes full effect of the Knack. If the Knack deals damage, then the secondary targets take half that damage. If the Knack offers a saving throw, then secondary targets gain a +2 on their saving throw. This must be used in conjunction with a knack that has a range of at least Close, and cannot be used in conjunction with an Area effect. If the Knack requires a touch attack, then each secondary target must also have a successful touch attack made to affect them, with a -4 penalty on all secondary attacks.

Duration (4 Prowess) - For Knacks with a Duration greater than Instantaneous, it increases the duration as follows: 1 round -> 2 rounds -> Rounds/level -> Min/lvl -> hours/level -> 24 hours. If the Duration is instantaneous, then this costs double (8 Prowess) and produces an identical effect with the same declared variables (including targets and area placement) on the following round. If the duration is greater than Instantaneous, you may purchase this Enhancement multiple times. Each time increases the duration one step on the list.

Energy Substitution (Minor:2, Major:4) - This modifies the 'flavor' of the knack. Most Knacks have the various flavors predefined. You may only choose one 'flavor' at a time. You may take this Enhancement multiple times. If you do, then you have additional options you may select when using the Knack.

Energy Admixture (6 Prowess) - This gives you the ability to apply an additional flavor at the same time, each one at full effect. However, you need to have already purchased Energy Substitution to have additional options to mix in. You may only purchase this Enhancement once per knack.

Power (6 Prowess) - This gives you the ability to enhance the potency of the Knack. If it deals damage, the damage increases by +1/die. If it offers a Saving Throw, then the DC is increased by 1. Some Knacks have additional effects when this Enhancement is applied to them.

Reach (4 Prowess) - This increases the Range of the Knack as follows: Personal -> Touch -> Close -> Medium -> Long. You may purchase this Enhancement multiple times. Doing so progresses it along the list. Range may not progress beyond Long.

Speed (4 Prowess) - This reduces the time it takes to use a Knack from a Full-Round Action to a Standard Action. If it is purchased a second time for the same Knack, it allows the Knack to be used as a Swift action. If it is purchased three times, it can be used as an Immediate action. it may only be purchased a maximum of three times.

Supernatural Ability (8 Prowess) - This changes the Knack from (Sp) to an (Su) ability.

Amnoriath

2013-09-03, 05:11 PM

While I do like some of the basis of what you are trying to do here, however a few things are really falling flat.
1. Why do you have knacks instead of spells? While I always like the idea of invocations but they really only hook in really well if they draw off of a very specific theme given by a class. This really doesn't have a specific theme as you have different bloodlines which aren't really developed well. Your knacks and augmentations are far more important. As such there isn't a major flavor draw in which your knacks individually underscore well at all. All in all it kind of has the same problem as the Pathfinder Warlock.
2. This class gets 11 knacks through out its entire career and there is 12 to choose from. This is asking for repetition and even a 3.5 Warlock gains more invocations and can craft any item it wants while still is only considered tier 4. I personally consider it an under-powered tier 3, but that is a different discussion.
3. You forgot to specify a save DC.
4. If you purchased speed 3 times on a knack does it mean you only can use it on an immediate action? If it does this severely limits some of your knacks making augmentation even more predictable.
Your augmentation system is quite intriquing and I do like the idea of customizing knacks however I majorly question such a stand alone revamp of a core class.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-03, 06:59 PM

While I do like some of the basis of what you are trying to do here, however a few things are really falling flat.Okay, I always appreciate feedback and criticism.

1. Why do you have knacks instead of spells? While I always like the idea of invocations but they really only hook in really well if they draw off of a very specific theme given by a class. This really doesn't have a specific theme as you have different bloodlines which aren't really developed well. Your knacks and augmentations are far more important. As such there isn't a major flavor draw in which your knacks individually underscore well at all. All in all it kind of has the same problem as the Pathfinder Warlock.
To answer your questions in order:

Why knacks instead of spells? Because Wizard does spells. Sorcerer should have a different mechanic other than 'less powerful and more restricted wizard'. He needs something to differentiate himself.

It is a modular class, the specific theme is based on the player's decision. I'm not going to pidgeonhole anyone's character fluff-wise.

Knacks and Augmentations are supposed to be important, that's kinda the whole mechanic of the class.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'there isn't a major flavor draw in which your knacks individually underscore'. Your character has spell-like abilities. You get to choose them. Various bloodlines have advantages in certain things, and will probably have a tendency to go for one type. For example, you can best bet that a Draconic bloodline, with the damage bonus, is going to be getting some damaging knacks and boosting them up.

2. This class gets 11 knacks through out its entire career and there is 12 to choose from. This is asking for repetition and even a 3.5 Warlock gains more invocations and can craft any item it wants while still is only considered tier 4. I personally consider it an under-powered tier 3, but that is a different discussion.
Knacks are largely customizable, and you can end up purchasing the same knack with different augmentations to end up with two radically different tools for two radically different situations.

Also, I was planning on expanding the knack list at some point, however I'm also trying to avoid the more cheesy options. However, I think you have seriously underestimated the flexibility of Knacks.

Take, for example, Magic Bolt. Toss in Area and Energy Substitution a couple of times. Now you've got every single blastomancy spell in the game. In a single knack. Your options are blasting in one of several elemental flavors in one of several area shapes. Your damage output is high enough to be relevant. That's flexibility that the Warlock doesn't begin to have. And that's just the blastomancy.

Tier 3 is about where I was aiming for with respect to power level, although I think the flexibility granted by augmentations would tend to push it to the higher end of Tier 3.

3. You forgot to specify a save DC.Ahh, thanks. That was normalized in d20r, and I forgot to put it in. It is 10+1/2 HD+Stat Mod

4. If you purchased speed 3 times on a knack does it mean you only can use it on an immediate action? If it does this severely limits some of your knacks making augmentation even more predictable.It gives you the option to do so, not a mandatory. Therefore, if you purchase Speed three times on a knack, it means you can use it as a standard, a swift, OR an immediate action. Your choice.

Your augmentation system is quite intriquing and I do like the idea of customizing knacks however I majorly question such a stand alone revamp of a core class.

Why is revamping a core class so much worse than revamping any other class? Sorcerer has stood in the Wizard's shadow for far too long, it's time to break him out of the mold and do something different with him.

Also, I think you're rather underestimating the power of the class, he can easily go 'Batman' with the right knacks and augments.

Thrudd

2013-09-03, 08:33 PM

I like it. Fluff-wise, the sorcerer has always bugged me. It does not make sense that a character who is essentially self taught and able to manifest magical effects naturally would generate the exact same effects and in the same way as wizards who have codified spells. This is a good idea, though the details can be hashed out.
You don't say anywhere how many times per day they can use their spell-like abilities (knacks). Are they all intended to be at will? That would be a little scary, I think. You could have a first level character that can spam an area effect damage spell (even though it is only 1d6 at that point, that is enough to kill a lot of creatures that are being faced at that level), and it will get more powerful at every level. I would say augmentation points should be changed to knack points, make their knacks powered by knack points(spell points), with the same options to enhance them. They'll need more than 1 point/level, at least at first level. Let them start out with 4 or 5 points, and add a couple every level. Alternatively, each knack starts out with lower number of uses per day, and whenever a new knack is gained the uses/day increases by one step for previously known knacks, eventually reaching at will. So something like 3/day, 5/day, 7/day, 9/day, at-will. That would put you with two at-will knacks at 10th level, with one 9/day, one 7/day, one 5/day, and one 3/day.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-03, 10:16 PM

Amnoriath

2013-09-03, 10:20 PM

Okay, I always appreciate feedback and criticism.

To answer your questions in order:

Why knacks instead of spells? Because Wizard does spells. Sorcerer should have a different mechanic other than 'less powerful and more restricted wizard'. He needs something to differentiate himself.

It is a modular class, the specific theme is based on the player's decision. I'm not going to pidgeonhole anyone's character fluff-wise.

Knacks and Augmentations are supposed to be important, that's kinda the whole mechanic of the class.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'there isn't a major flavor draw in which your knacks individually underscore'. Your character has spell-like abilities. You get to choose them. Various bloodlines have advantages in certain things, and will probably have a tendency to go for one type. For example, you can best bet that a Draconic bloodline, with the damage bonus, is going to be getting some damaging knacks and boosting them up.

Knacks are largely customizable, and you can end up purchasing the same knack with different augmentations to end up with two radically different tools for two radically different situations.

Also, I was planning on expanding the knack list at some point, however I'm also trying to avoid the more cheesy options. However, I think you have seriously underestimated the flexibility of Knacks.

Take, for example, Magic Bolt. Toss in Area and Energy Substitution a couple of times. Now you've got every single blastomancy spell in the game. In a single knack. Your options are blasting in one of several elemental flavors in one of several area shapes. Your damage output is high enough to be relevant. That's flexibility that the Warlock doesn't begin to have. And that's just the blastomancy.

Tier 3 is about where I was aiming for with respect to power level, although I think the flexibility granted by augmentations would tend to push it to the higher end of Tier 3.

Ahh, thanks. That was normalized in d20r, and I forgot to put it in. It is 10+1/2 HD+Stat Mod
It gives you the option to do so, not a mandatory. Therefore, if you purchase Speed three times on a knack, it means you can use it as a standard, a swift, OR an immediate action. Your choice.

Why is revamping a core class so much worse than revamping any other class? Sorcerer has stood in the Wizard's shadow for far too long, it's time to break him out of the mold and do something different with him.

Also, I think you're rather underestimating the power of the class, he can easily go 'Batman' with the right knacks and augments.

1. The Sorcerer is only a more limited version of a wizard, not less powerful. Spontaneous casting, especially using a couple of key ACF's enables abilities in which the Wizard has to seek specific PrC's, multiclass, or find caster mooks to possibly emulate. In metamagic a Wizard has to put the spell in a higher slot to use, so he can only have a total of 9 levels normally. The Sorcerer on the other is only restricted by caster level, so 20 for him. Also Mage of the Arcane Order and a Shadowcraft Mage effectively make him a spontaneous casting wizard. You are correct in the sense there is very little the class itself offers without using ACF's which is indeed a failure on the creator's part, but make no mistake a Sorcerer isn't a weakling cousin.
2. You think that by choosing one area and one alternate energy this becomes a blastomancer at level 2? The Dragonfire Adept just did that plus one more area, does it as a standard action, and is a supernatural ability while still having an invocation.
3. I wasn't talking about your class. I was talking about the 3.5 Warlock. Your class probably is a tier 4 with a really weak frame. Sure you can make a heck of a magic bolt and a super haste but you have little room for other things, plus you can't use the later effectively. Your save and sucks pretty much stop in power after area and maybe one application of power(hinder, mindlock,..etc).
4. You didn't read carefully on what I fully said. You created a stand alone revamp. In other words there is very little material that can possibly add to it. Let me go back to what I said about invocations needing a theme. A good invocation is something that generally has mulitple effects and/or applications. Often because of the theme it has whether it be emulating somethine or work with a class feature. A majority of your knacks though basically only do one thing in one application. Heck, you don't even have any knacks that increase attributes or give skill bonuses. A couple do have some interesting implications, a powered, range, area obscure is a cloak field.
In general what you have is purely mechanical, but being such produces expected results: resistance only produces save bonuses, protection only produces AC bonuses..etc. You do have some good base mechanics. I just think that 3 key things that need to be done.
1. You need to go back and make some flavor and metaphysical material to define the difference of the academic/specific spellcaster(Wizard) and the mythic manipulator of the raw arcane(Sorcerer).
2. Knacks need to be renamed and retooled to fit the flavor as well as do more than just one thing.
3. It needs to have a base class mechanic which your new Knacks revolve around in some way.
While this may require nerfing a bit what you have now but it will ultimately yield a better result because you have a specified flavor and more varied contigent options to choose from.

Thrudd

2013-09-03, 11:05 PM

You see, here's where we'll have to disagree. Take a look at the Warlock. It can blast all day long, and it's probably underpowered for its role. Sure, Knacks can get bumped up in power, but they'll still be merely par.

For example, your position on being able to blast every round with an area effect. It's doing 1d6 in a broad area. There's another spell which does this, it's called Burning Hands. Of course, as any caster will tell you, Sleep is just plain better, because it is a Save or Lose, and nothing has the saves at 1st level to shrug it off.

An at-will which needs an attack roll to hit is fine. The problem is not having a burning hands-like effect, that is expected. The problem for me is using it at-will at first level (and normal burning hands is only 1d4/level, not 1d6). This could be solved by making the "area" enhancement cost more prowess, like 6 or 8. If they do get an at-will area attack, it should not scale with level, or should scale more slowly than 1d/level.
I prefer lower magic availability settings. I don't allow magic items to be purchased or crafted except for very simple ones, I don't hand out powerful magic items very often. Wizards cannot buy spells for their spellbooks, they are only found as loot or the purpose of quests. So a class which has powerful at-will magic ability is not one I would be able to use. I do like the idea of this sorcerer, but I need to power it down some if it were to fit for my campaigns. My wizards are basically a combination of sorcerer and wizard already with spontaneous casting of prepared spells, so I had taken the sorcerer class out of my setting.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-05, 08:33 PM

1. The Sorcerer is only a more limited version of a wizard, not less powerful. Spontaneous casting, especially using a couple of key ACF's enables abilities in which the Wizard has to seek specific PrC's, multiclass, or find caster mooks to possibly emulate. In metamagic a Wizard has to put the spell in a higher slot to use, so he can only have a total of 9 levels normally. The Sorcerer on the other is only restricted by caster level, so 20 for him. Also Mage of the Arcane Order and a Shadowcraft Mage effectively make him a spontaneous casting wizard. You are correct in the sense there is very little the class itself offers without using ACF's which is indeed a failure on the creator's part, but make no mistake a Sorcerer isn't a weakling cousin.The Sorcerer is just the Wizard's kid brother, anything the Sorcerer can do, the Wizard could have done either a level sooner or by expending fewer resources. That is not going to change, regardless of the PrC's, because the Wizard can take those same PrC's, and do it a level sooner.

2. You think that by choosing one area and one alternate energy this becomes a blastomancer at level 2? The Dragonfire Adept just did that plus one more area, does it as a standard action, and is a supernatural ability while still having an invocation.No, I think that having shut-down effects online as soon as level 1 beats out the DFA, which by the way IS a Tier 3 class.

It also has enormous buffing ability that is usable at-will as well. It can provide DFI-level damage augmentation, haste, actually relevant AC boosts, resistances, and more. Don't forget, all those buffs can get augmented with Reach to make them party buffs, if you want to drop in enough points, particularly when combined with Chain.

And it does all this at the same time.

3. I wasn't talking about your class. I was talking about the 3.5 Warlock. Your class probably is a tier 4 with a really weak frame. Sure you can make a heck of a magic bolt and a super haste but you have little room for other things, plus you can't use the later effectively. Your save and sucks pretty much stop in power after area and maybe one application of power(hinder, mindlock,..etc).Umm... wait a second, you said they suck because they're a Save or Lose after a single application of Power? No, that is the opposite of 'suck', that is 'permanent lockdown capability'. This class is easily high Tier 3, possibly as high as Tier 2, depending on how you work the augments.

4. You didn't read carefully on what I fully said. You created a stand alone revamp. In other words there is very little material that can possibly add to it. Let me go back to what I said about invocations needing a theme. A good invocation is something that generally has mulitple effects and/or applications. Often because of the theme it has whether it be emulating somethine or work with a class feature. A majority of your knacks though basically only do one thing in one application. Heck, you don't even have any knacks that increase attributes or give skill bonuses. A couple do have some interesting implications, a powered, range, area obscure is a cloak field.With all due respect:

WRONG

The 'theme' is made by the individual player and his perception of how he wants his character to be built. I have explicitly avoided impressing my flavor upon the character class because I want the PLAYER to have freedom of choice.

As far as 'one thing in application', I don't think you can properly appreciate how enormous it can be, because it is a 'do it all, if you like' class. For example, Resistance bonuses... can you think of another class which can guarantee giving Resistance bonuses to all saving throws which are CL-scaled, to the whole party, as a standard action? Because really, I don't. And do you have any idea how powerful that is, particularly once you get CL boosting tactics going?

Protect = Mage Armor (that scales faster and can out-perform Bracers of Armor at nearly every level), Shield of Faith, and Barkskin all rolled into a single ability. If you get the Energy Substitutions, Reach once or twice, and Chain... that's effectively Caster Level to AC for the WHOLE PARTY. That goes from 'easily hitting you' to 'only hitting you on a natural 20'. Oh, and being a Force effect, it is fully effective against incorporeal attacks. That is, again, the opposite of weak.

In general what you have is purely mechanical, but being such produces expected results: resistance only produces save bonuses, protection only produces AC bonuses..etc. You do have some good base mechanics. I just think that 3 key things that need to be done.
1. You need to go back and make some flavor and metaphysical material to define the difference of the academic/specific spellcaster(Wizard) and the mythic manipulator of the raw arcane(Sorcerer).
2. Knacks need to be renamed and retooled to fit the flavor as well as do more than just one thing.
3. It needs to have a base class mechanic which your new Knacks revolve around in some way.
While this may require nerfing a bit what you have now but it will ultimately yield a better result because you have a specified flavor and more varied contigent options to choose from.

I think you are laboring under some mis-conceptions:

1) Flavor is something the player brings to the table with his backstory, not something I dictate with a base class.

2) Knacks are the base mechanic which the class revolves around, and it has mechanics which augment and support it. They also already do more than one thing (UNLIKE most Invocations, I might add).

In fact, it's about the only class I've seen that can get (Su) ability lockdowns which bypasses just about any defense with a high enough DC. Yes, you can lock down golems if you pick up the Supernatural Ability augmentation. Think about that for a second. Also, he's in a prime position to go Mailman with that same augmentation.

I think you need to go back and have a second look at those knacks and how they can be permanently augmented.

Amnoriath

2013-09-05, 09:44 PM

The Sorcerer is just the Wizard's kid brother, anything the Sorcerer can do, the Wizard could have done either a level sooner or by expending fewer resources. That is not going to change, regardless of the PrC's, because the Wizard can take those same PrC's, and do it a level sooner.
No, I think that having shut-down effects online as soon as level 1 beats out the DFA, which by the way IS a Tier 3 class.

It also has enormous buffing ability that is usable at-will as well. It can provide DFI-level damage augmentation, haste, actually relevant AC boosts, resistances, and more. Don't forget, all those buffs can get augmented with Reach to make them party buffs, if you want to drop in enough points, particularly when combined with Chain.

And it does all this at the same time.
Umm... wait a second, you said they suck because they're a Save or Lose after a single application of Power? No, that is the opposite of 'suck', that is 'permanent lockdown capability'. This class is easily high Tier 3, possibly as high as Tier 2, depending on how you work the augments.
With all due respect:

WRONG

The 'theme' is made by the individual player and his perception of how he wants his character to be built. I have explicitly avoided impressing my flavor upon the character class because I want the PLAYER to have freedom of choice.

As far as 'one thing in application', I don't think you can properly appreciate how enormous it can be, because it is a 'do it all, if you like' class. For example, Resistance bonuses... can you think of another class which can guarantee giving Resistance bonuses to all saving throws which are CL-scaled, to the whole party, as a standard action? Because really, I don't. And do you have any idea how powerful that is, particularly once you get CL boosting tactics going?

Protect = Mage Armor (that scales faster and can out-perform Bracers of Armor at nearly every level), Shield of Faith, and Barkskin all rolled into a single ability. If you get the Energy Substitutions, Reach once or twice, and Chain... that's effectively Caster Level to AC for the WHOLE PARTY. That goes from 'easily hitting you' to 'only hitting you on a natural 20'. Oh, and being a Force effect, it is fully effective against incorporeal attacks. That is, again, the opposite of weak.

I think you are laboring under some mis-conceptions:

1) Flavor is something the player brings to the table with his backstory, not something I dictate with a base class.

2) Knacks are the base mechanic which the class revolves around, and it has mechanics which augment and support it. They also already do more than one thing (UNLIKE most Invocations, I might add).

In fact, it's about the only class I've seen that can get (Su) ability lockdowns which bypasses just about any defense with a high enough DC. Yes, you can lock down golems if you pick up the Supernatural Ability augmentation. Think about that for a second. Also, he's in a prime position to go Mailman with that same augmentation.

I think you need to go back and have a second look at those knacks and how they can be permanently augmented.

1. The wizard can't spontaneously cast so without some way to make circle magic actually realistic for a fair amount of spells he has to completely take up his high level slots with illusions if he wants to actually use the Shadowcraft Mage well. The sorcerer on the other hand only needs an ACF, heighten, earth spell, and maybe a couple of items to use it a litte more often than he gets full effect without time increase. Also the Sorcerer gets more spell slots to blow for the Mage of the Arcane Order's special ability. So what if the wizard can get in a level earlier he can't use the abilities as well or the ability is redundant to what he is already capable of.
2. Any optimal DFA has entangling exhalation at level one, blast and lockdown. Yours needs to wait until second level to get a lockdown effect, assuming of course if you were patient with augmentation otherwise it is still a single target.
3. It only has four buff options. I just did the math in order for your party to get charge weapon and speed(equivalent to the original haste) you would need to pay 40 prowess points.
Charge Weapon(reach 4, chain 6, energy substition(2+4), speed 4) 20
Speed(reach 4, chain 6, power 6, speed 4) 20 then use range augmentation. All of your save and sucks affect one target, a single 20d6 fire bolt, and a single concealment all of which cost a full-round action a piece. You may have the abilities but you either are a sitting duck or running away. As such effectively you are a tier 4 here in a very boring way.
4. I didn't say they actually sucked. What I said was that there was a definable point in which there was no point in enhancing them any further. You also have very few conditions in which it would be easy for a DM to trip in something immune.
5. A player chooses a class to help construct a personal character. Every class has a theme in which the player wants and uses its aspect to make a personality for a character as well as utilize its function. What you have is purely mechanical in saying this is what you can do as if you were reading the vocabulary and layouts of spells in general.
6. Dictate would mean you force the player to choose the class. Yes a class can be badly constructed to do only one thing but that has nothing to do with making a theme. A theme gives a unique setting or wonder that can give ideas to work with more than just a single bonus or attack type. Where do you think the rules of Incorporeality and Etherealness came from? It came from the lore of ghosts and thinking about how they interact with the material to fight them in a game.
7. Really, how about Humanoid Shape, Magic Insight, Chilling Fog/tentacles, entropic warding, fell flight, flee the scene, beguiling influence, draconic knowledge,....etc I can also bring in some homebrew links of good examples.
8. Have you just forgotten about the DFA again?

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-05, 10:26 PM

1. The wizard can't spontaneously cast so without some way to make circle magic actually realistic for a fair amount of spells he has to completely take up his high level slots with illusions if he wants to actually use the Shadowcraft Mage well. The sorcerer on the other hand only needs an ACF, heighten, earth spell, and maybe a couple of items to use it a litte more often than he gets full effect without time increase. Also the Sorcerer gets more spell slots to blow for the Mage of the Arcane Order's special ability. So what if the wizard can get in a level earlier he can't use the abilities as well or the ability is redundant to what he is already capable of.Sorcerer ends up with less spell slots once you start talking about specialization. Even a focused-specialized wizard has a far greater variety in what he can do. Shadowcraft Mage is completely unnecessary for a wizard. He doesn't need to duplicate spells, he just casts them. So he doesn't NEED such cheesy tricks to do whatever he wants when he wants.

2. Any optimal DFA has entangling exhalation at level one, blast and lockdown. Yours needs to wait until second level to get a lockdown effect, assuming of course if you were patient with augmentation otherwise it is still a single target.Which is quite possibly one of the most powerful first level characters around. However, as you grow, you end up with more abilities, and each ability is FAR more versatile.

3. It only has four buff options. I just did the math in order for your party to get charge weapon and speed(equivalent to the original haste) you would need to pay 40 prowess points.
Charge Weapon(reach 4, chain 6, energy substition(2+4), speed 4) 20
Speed(reach 4, chain 6, power 6, speed 4) 20 then use range augmentation. All of your save and sucks affect one target, a single 20d6 fire bolt, and a single concealment all of which cost a full-round action a piece. You may have the abilities but you either are a sitting duck or running away. As such effectively you are a tier 4 here in a very boring way. Perhaps you missed the point where all of my save-or-suck spells can be Chained to multiple targets? Which makes them FAR more viable, because you don't have to worry about friendly fire. Lock down the whole encounter in one shot? Yes, please.

Also, you don't need to Energy Sub on Charge Weapon unless you want to give them something besides fire damage.

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

Mindlock is Save or Dazed (can take no actions). Now slap on Range (4) once (for Close), Chain (6) for multi-target, and Duration twice (8) for Rounds/level. For 18 prowess (by level 15), you've got a Save or Screwed effect which hits pretty much every opponent within Close range and locks them down for far longer than you're going to need to worry about. However, Range can be had as early as level 2, with Chain following up by level 7. At that point, you are still locking down every opponent on the field with your action. And it is spammable.

Rech is pretty much the same thing. Reach (4), Chain (6) and you've got a multi-target Save or Lose spell by level 7. By level 11, you've got enough to give it some Duration.

Slow... well, you don't really need to do anything with this. At level one, it's a single-target lockdown by itself. By level 2, you've got Chain and making it multi-targetable. You've got a 3rd level spell by level 2. And one of the most powerful 3rd level spells ever printed. What more do you want?

Speed needs Reach x 2 (8) and Chain (6) for Haste. That's obtainable by level 11.

Obscure is already Rounds/level. Reach x 2 (8) + Chain (6) means it's effectively Mass Displacement. Note that the miss chance is based on caster level? AND that there's a bloodline which increases the CL by 4 for beneficial Knacks? By the time you hit level 11, you are giving the whole party 50% miss chance for the entire encounter.

The class builds up slowly, but it just keeps building up. All of the abilities scale with caster level or HD, so they naturally just get more powerful all by themselves. And by the time you hit the mid game, where the Warlock *FINALLY* starts getting some lockdown, you've so totally outclassed the Warlock that he can't even begin to compete.

4. I didn't say they actually sucked. What I said was that there was a definable point in which there was no point in enhancing them any further. You also have very few conditions in which it would be easy for a DM to trip in something immune.Both points are very deliberate. He's not particularly overwhelming, but he is reliable and consistent. By enhancing them up to a point, the player now has enough Prowess to spend on OTHER abilities. Remember, he keeps getting more Knacks. This isn't an either/or situation, this is an 'in addition to' situation.

5. A player chooses a class to help construct a personal character. Every class has a theme in which the player wants and uses its aspect to make a personality for a character as well as utilize its function. What you have is purely mechanical in saying this is what you can do as if you were reading the vocabulary and layouts of spells in general. And I vigorously disagree.

6. Dictate would mean you force the player to choose the class. Yes a class can be badly constructed to do only one thing but that has nothing to do with making a theme. A theme gives a unique setting or wonder that can give ideas to work with more than just a single bonus or attack type. Where do you think the rules of Incorporeality and Etherealness came from? It came from the lore of ghosts and thinking about how they interact with the material to fight them in a game.I have no clue where you are going with this?

7. Really, how about Humanoid Shape, Magic Insight, Chilling Fog/tentacles, entropic warding, fell flight, flee the scene, beguiling influence, draconic knowledge,....etc I can also bring in some homebrew links of good examples. And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?

8. Have you just forgotten about the DFA again?DFA does Spell-Like Abilities, not Supernatural. Read the class again, please.

Amnoriath

2013-09-05, 10:57 PM

Sorcerer ends up with less spell slots once you start talking about specialization. Even a focused-specialized wizard has a far greater variety in what he can do. Shadowcraft Mage is completely unnecessary for a wizard. He doesn't need to duplicate spells, he just casts them. So he doesn't NEED such cheesy tricks to do whatever he wants when he wants.
Which is quite possibly one of the most powerful first level characters around. However, as you grow, you end up with more abilities, and each ability is FAR more versatile.
Perhaps you missed the point where all of my save-or-suck spells can be Chained to multiple targets? Which makes them FAR more viable, because you don't have to worry about friendly fire. Lock down the whole encounter in one shot? Yes, please.

Also, you don't need to Energy Sub on Charge Weapon unless you want to give them something besides fire damage.

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

Mindlock is Save or Dazed (can take no actions). Now slap on Range (4) once (for Close), Chain (6) for multi-target, and Duration twice (8) for Rounds/level. For 18 prowess (by level 15), you've got a Save or Screwed effect which hits pretty much every opponent within Close range and locks them down for far longer than you're going to need to worry about. However, Range can be had as early as level 2, with Chain following up by level 7. At that point, you are still locking down every opponent on the field with your action. And it is spammable.

Rech is pretty much the same thing. Reach (4), Chain (6) and you've got a multi-target Save or Lose spell by level 7. By level 11, you've got enough to give it some Duration.

Slow... well, you don't really need to do anything with this. At level one, it's a single-target lockdown by itself. By level 2, you've got Chain and making it multi-targetable. You've got a 3rd level spell by level 2. And one of the most powerful 3rd level spells ever printed. What more do you want?

Speed needs Reach x 2 (8) and Chain (6) for Haste. That's obtainable by level 11.

Obscure is already Rounds/level. Reach x 2 (8) + Chain (6) means it's effectively Mass Displacement. Note that the miss chance is based on caster level? AND that there's a bloodline which increases the CL by 4 for beneficial Knacks? By the time you hit level 11, you are giving the whole party 50% miss chance for the entire encounter.

The class builds up slowly, but it just keeps building up. All of the abilities scale with caster level or HD, so they naturally just get more powerful all by themselves. And by the time you hit the mid game, where the Warlock *FINALLY* starts getting some lockdown, you've so totally outclassed the Warlock that he can't even begin to compete.

Both points are very deliberate. He's not particularly overwhelming, but he is reliable and consistent. By enhancing them up to a point, the player now has enough Prowess to spend on OTHER abilities. Remember, he keeps getting more Knacks. This isn't an either/or situation, this is an 'in addition to' situation.
And I vigorously disagree.
I have no clue where you are going with this?
And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?
DFA does Spell-Like Abilities, not Supernatural. Read the class again, please.

1. Chain offers culmulative save bonuses for your enemies, be careful when saying it locks down everyone. Also undead are immune to both stun and nauseated plus they have good will progression.
2. Well when most things are resistant to fire or easily immune it is very wise to do substitute. Your speed doesn't add an attack without the power enhancement hence making it like haste.
3. Yippee-doo, Invisibility and like abilities been around for how long? Plus you can't choose the same bloodline twice. You also forget that you have completed wasted a round doing each and almost blew half your points in your entire career in every single example. What else are you going to do if your special power just found something immune or countered?
4. It means make a setting and components in which explains the existence of Sorcerers and have them manipulate those elements accordingly. That new setting and seeking those components will give them more abilities than these single archetypal abilities.
5. Wrong, what is its Breath Weapon?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-05, 11:25 PM

1. Chain offers culmulative save bonuses for your enemies, be careful when saying it locks down everyone. Also undead are immune to both stun and nauseated plus they have good will progression. Wrong. It has a flat -2 DC on secondary targets, not cumulative. Besides, weren't you just complaining about nothing being immune? Also, undead are the Cleric's baliwick. Why bother trying to lockdown when your Cleric can Turn Undead and reduce them to little piles of ash?

2. Well when most things are resistant to fire or easily immune it is very wise to do substitute. Your speed doesn't add an attack without the power enhancement hence making it like haste. Also note that energy substitution only really needs to be taken once, if that is a concern. You're still dumping too many points into it. Also, you can use Energy Admixture to effectively double your damage per swing. How would you like to be doing +20d6? Doable.

3. Yippee-doo, Invisibility and like abilities been around for how long? Plus you can't choose the same bloodline twice. You also forget that you have completed wasted a round doing each and almost blew half your points in your entire career in every single example. What else are you going to do if your special power just found something immune or countered?Read it again, please. Duration: Rounds/level. Also, NOT invisibility. It's better. In fact, the Power option is a trap, it's better to simply have the miss chance. If you are focusing on buffing, you choose the Celestial bloodline. I fail to see how anything can be immune to the target having a miss chance without something like Pierce Magical Concealment or True Strike. Hell, it even works on Blindsight.

4. It means make a setting and components in which explains the existence of Sorcerers and have them manipulate those elements accordingly. That new setting and seeking those components will give them more abilities than these single archetypal abilities.I still don't know what you are talking about, or at least how this is relevant to the creation of a base class.

5. Wrong, what is its Breath Weapon?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2
Unfortunately, the useful breath weapons can't be spammed, since you can't use them on consecutive rounds.

Amnoriath

2013-09-05, 11:51 PM

Wrong. It has a flat -2 DC on secondary targets, not cumulative. Besides, weren't you just complaining about nothing being immune? Also, undead are the Cleric's baliwick. Why bother trying to lockdown when your Cleric can Turn Undead and reduce them to little piles of ash?
Also note that energy substitution only really needs to be taken once, if that is a concern. You're still dumping too many points into it. Also, you can use Energy Admixture to effectively double your damage per swing. How would you like to be doing +20d6? Doable.
Read it again, please. Duration: Rounds/level. Also, NOT invisibility. It's better. In fact, the Power option is a trap, it's better to simply have the miss chance. If you are focusing on buffing, you choose the Celestial bloodline. I fail to see how anything can be immune to the target having a miss chance without something like Pierce Magical Concealment or True Strike. Hell, it even works on Blindsight.
I still don't know what you are talking about, or at least how this is relevant to the creation of a base class.

Unfortunately, the useful breath weapons can't be spammed, since you can't use them on consecutive rounds.
1. No, I never said that.
2. Than what is with the 2 minor, 4 major by energy substitution? 1/2 non-fire on the charge weapon isn't exactly much.
3. Area effects, True Seeing, Woodland Archer, Improved Precise Shot, Blind-Fight gives a second chance, Diadem of Pure Light. Plus the ever useful dispel. Also you can't get that percentage at that level 50% is the max at very earliest if not rounding down is 19. That Bloodline only adds 4 and it doesn't say select multiple times. Also Blindsight does beat it.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_blindsight&alpha=
4. What does a Druid do? They devote themselves to nature to harness nature's power and become part of the wild themselves. You can make all sorts of links and instances in how they do that both functionally and thematically. Yours only has mechanics down.
5. Entangling Exhalation gives it a duration plus there are certain metabreath feats. http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/entangling-exhalation--900/

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-06, 12:35 AM

1. No, I never said that.

1. Chain offers culmulative save bonuses for your enemies, be careful when saying it locks down everyone. Also undead are immune to both stun and nauseated plus they have good will progression.
Say what again?

2. Than what is with the 2 minor, 4 major by energy substitution? 1/2 non-fire on the charge weapon isn't exactly much.Energy Substitution costs 2 for a minor substitution, 4 for a major. Minor would be Cold and lightning. Major would be acid or sonic. So if you are putting two points into it, you can choose Cold or Lighting. But if you want the more rarely resisted Acid or Sonic, you need to pay 4.

3. Area effects, True Seeing, Woodland Archer, Improved Precise Shot, Blind-Fight gives a second chance, Diadem of Pure Light. Plus the ever useful dispel. Also you can't get that percentage at that level 50% is the max at very earliest if not rounding down is 19. That Bloodline only adds 4 and it doesn't say select multiple times. Also Blindsight does beat it.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_blindsight&alpha=And how often are you going to run into anything but an area effect from that list? Come on, you're grasping at straws here.

4. What does a Druid do? They devote themselves to nature to harness nature's power and become part of the wild themselves. You can make all sorts of links and instances in how they do that both functionally and thematically. Yours only has mechanics down.Flavor is mutable, mechanics are solid. I'm writing homebrew mechanics, not a novel.

5. Entangling Exhalation gives it a duration plus there are certain metabreath feats. http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/entangling-exhalation--900/Which doesn't even WORK because the metabreath feats only apply to breath weapons with a cooldown, which DFA's basic breath doesn't have.

Amnoriath

2013-09-06, 05:55 AM

Say what again?
Energy Substitution costs 2 for a minor substitution, 4 for a major. Minor would be Cold and lightning. Major would be acid or sonic. So if you are putting two points into it, you can choose Cold or Lighting. But if you want the more rarely resisted Acid or Sonic, you need to pay 4.
And how often are you going to run into anything but an area effect from that list? Come on, you're grasping at straws here.
Flavor is mutable, mechanics are solid. I'm writing homebrew mechanics, not a novel.
Which doesn't even WORK because the metabreath feats only apply to breath weapons with a cooldown, which DFA's basic breath doesn't have.

1. You said "Besides, weren't you just complaining about nothing being immune?" I never made any such claims of being over-powered.
2. Hmm, well considering there is indeed a lot of core abilities that between what both of us said I would hardly consider it grasping at straws. It doesn't dismiss that they are relying off a single trick. At least with attacking other players can absolve the counters to it to make it viable.
3. Mechanics are solidly guided by a theme in classes. As I said it just doesn't limit what it does it can get the creators to think about the specific situations and/or apply certain fantasy to make new abilities. Since these mechanics don't have a theme you didn't apply any fantasy as such they are flat bonuses, few conditions, and straight damage. You don't have to write a novel to do this.
4. Except when you have Power Surge from Dragon Magazine. Either by increasing damage a point per damage die or increasing the save DC it gets a cooldown of 1 round.

Solaris

2013-09-06, 11:51 AM

DR27

2013-09-06, 12:44 PM

I really like the concept, but the execution isn't great, and wording could use some clarification. It sounds like when you learn a knack, you spend prowess points to get enhancements to that knack, but it's not 100% clear. If that's true then, lets look at how the first 10 levels would look for say, a buffer:

Level 1: I get my first knack, but only have 2 prowess points and can't get any enhancements besides area - I guess I save them for my next knack. So, I guess protect? I can boost my own AC as a full-round action or detect magic. I don't have augmentation points to do anything either. Pretty much though, I'm a crossbowman in combat, and can help detect magic out of combat. SRD Sorcerers are casting Enlarge Person or Magic Weapon a couple times a day on the BSF. Sucky for your Sorcerer in comparison, but it's lvl. 1

Level 2: Alright, I get another knack, but this time can use prowess points to affect the range of that knack and actually affect allies with that knack. Lets say I want to buff the party fighter's weapon. I can take Charge Weapon and spend my 4 prowess points to be able to cast it as a touch spell instead of only on my own weapon. Whee! Now I can add fire damage to the BSF's weapon at the cost of my own full-round action, and at touch range to boot! (and since duration is rounds/level, it needs to be refreshed every two rounds) While the SRD Sorcerer can't replicate my ability to add fire damage right now (and sucks since he only adds a cantrip known), the Bard is blowing me out of the water with Dragonfire Inspiration, even if mine is useable at-will. At least I add decent dice by taking up a Celestial Bloodline. It's a little bit better, but still kinda sucks.

Level 3: Practically nothing. Why am I taking this level? I guess I really like adding bad skills, piddling hit points, and +1 to REF/FORT base saves. Augmentation points are high enough to extend once a day. I get to add 2 to my prowess points, so I will be able to get another enhancement next level. SRD Sorcerer at least got a new trick. Probably some sort of BFC like obscuring mist.

Level 4: I get a new Knack! What should I choose? My crossbow is really starting to suck, even if I decide to waste a full-round action to Charge Weapon it, so I pick Magic Bolt to become a pseudo-warlock. I've got to save up my prowess points (4) so I can do useful things later. The normal Sorcerer just picked up Alter Self and is able to fly or enter melee alongside the BSF that he's buffing. I'm starting to fall behind.

Level 5: Arcane Sight is a neat trick, I'm slightly more useful out of combat. Also, Prowess Points are up to 6! SRD Sorcerer probably just picked up Bull's Strength.

Level 6: This time, my Knack is going to be great! I've got 8 Prowess Points, so lets spend those! I totally want to Haste my fighter, since you know, that's what a normal Sorcerer would do at this level. Speed Knack seems good (might want to change the name of the Speed Enhancement by the way) - but I've got to spend 6 prowess points to get that extra attack, and don't have the extra points to boost that to touch range, and am actually prohibited by the CL+3 rule about Enhancements - my Augment Points let me touch the warrior twice a day to boost him. Meanwhile, the SRD Sorcerer's Haste is boosting a whole adventuring group 3-4 times a day. I can fly, but can't use my abilities while flying since my maneuverability is too poor to hover, and my wings identify me as a sorcerer whether or not I want to be. Two Prowess Points left over.

or

I can be boring and take Disrupt Magic. It's just as good in a practical sense as Dispel Magic, and lets me save my Prowess Points for later use to recreate haste. Prowess is 8 left over. The SRD Sorcerer buffs better than I, but I'll get there eventually. Probably take this route instead.

Level 7: Nothing worthwhile, I can see scrying sensors? Sorcerer probably picked up Dispel Magic, I've got practically nothing on him.

Level 8: Okay, now I've got 12 Prowess Points to spend, and can actually re-create haste I'm taking Speed Knack, Enhancing with both Reach and Power. I can touch the fighter at will as full-round action to give him Haste. Still a shadow if it's former party-buffing glory, but I can do it once a day with Augment Points. SRD Sorcerer grabbed any number of awesome.

Level 9: Damnit, another dead level? - these suck

Level 10: This time, I've got 6 Prowess Points to spend, and my party is encountering enemies that cast spells all the time. I've gotta take Resistance Knack, and can cast it as a touch spell. My final build is letting me boost a single ally's weapon, protect myself (OK), use a crappy blast, target a dispel magic, cast a single target haste, or buff saves vs magic. That's not that many things frankly. We need more options.

I'm not saying they need to be T2 powerhouses like the current Sorcerer, but even a basic SRD-based buffing build that would be somewhere in T3 like I roughly outlined blows this version of the Sorcerer out of the water in terms of fun and playability.

Bottom line, unless I've misinterpreted your class (and if I have, it needs major clarification), this Sorcerer Redux is going to be standing in one spot and either shooting/buffing/debuffing once per round. He can't move unless he's dumped a ton of points into the Speed Enhancement or burns through all of his Augment Points for the day.

It's probably Tier 4 - can do a bunch of things, but doesn't really excel at anything, and individual builds are total one-trick ponies. I'm going to speculate that only a few builds are actually playable, and the action economy sucks because everything is a full-round action. Try to think of some things for them to do out of combat, because right now it's pretty much fly or maybe dispel traps.

I understand that in your mind, you were creating this awesome mechanic that would have varied blasts and debuffs, but as it stands, it's a less versatile Warlock. Maybe that was the goal, but the current version can only really blast well, without being very proficient at other options. There need to be more Knacks, and Personal Range kills any buffs at all. Full-round action standard could use work as well, and you need to figure out how the class interacts with the metamagic feats for spell like abilities.

3WhiteFox3

2013-09-06, 01:54 PM

I really like the concept, but the execution isn't great, and wording could use some clarification. It sounds like when you learn a knack, you spend prowess points to get enhancements to that knack, but it's not 100% clear. If that's true then, lets look at how a typical 10-level build would look for say, a buffer:

*Snip*

I'm not saying they need to be T2 powerhouses like the current Sorcerer, but even a basic SRD-based buffing build that would be somewhere in T3 like I roughly outlined blows this version of the Sorcerer out of the water in terms of fun and playability.

Bottom line, unless I've misinterpreted your class (and if I have, it needs major clarification), this Sorcerer Redux is going to be standing in one spot and either shooting/buffing/debuffing once per round. He can't move unless he's dumped a ton of points into the Speed Enhancement or burns through all of his Augment Points for the day.

It's probably Tier 4 - can do a bunch of things, but doesn't really excel at anything, and individual builds are total one-trick ponies. I'm going to speculate that only a few builds are actually playable, and the action economy sucks because everything is a full-round action. Try to think of some things for them to do out of combat, because right now it's pretty much fly or maybe dispel traps.

I understand that in your mind, you were creating this awesome mechanic that would have varied blasts and debuffs, but as it stands, it's a less versatile Warlock. Maybe that was the goal, but the current version can only really blast well, without being very proficient at other options. There need to be more Knacks, and Personal Range kills any buffs at all. Full-round action standard could use work as well, and you need to figure out how the class interacts with the metamagic feats for spell like abilities.

I think that the intent for enhancements was that you could apply them to a knack that you already possess, it could use the clarification though. If you can apply them to a previous knack, it's much better, though I still feel that there are issues (which I'll get into later).

I'm also not the biggest fan of Full-round actions being the standard casting time. It really cuts down on tactical viability and it really stinks to know that if you want to use your main trick, you're going to have to do nothing else for the turn. I think it should start out as a standard action, and maybe increase the cost of the speed enhancement (having both a knack and enhancement with the same name might be something to avoid to cut down on redundancy and confusion) to 6 to make up for it.

I also agree that the class feels very limited, if I have a trick in mind, I have to build up for that one trick. For example if I want to make a party buffer celestial sorcerer based around charge weapon, my trick won't really get going until level 11 thanks to the cap (Reach x2 is 8 and chain is 6 totaling 14) by which point 4d6 fire damage to 15 allies is very underwhelming (especially since most enemies will have fire resistance). This is made worse by the fact that Bards have had better buffs several levels earlier thanks to Inspire Courage shenanigans. But even that takes up 14 out of 40 prowess which is just over 1/3 of prowess that you will ever get; and if I want to make it better by starting up the energy admixture line and making it force, I can't because of the cap of CL + 3 (the cap at level 20 will be 23, it costs 14 total for chain and another 10 for force substitution + admixture) but even if I could by level 20 I might as well not have admixture anyway thanks to the fact that the fire portion will be ignored 90% of the time and I might as well just have force substitution.

The buffs are all personal on a class with a mediocre chassis not intended for combat. Casting takes too long. It takes way too long to even get the basic aspects of a trick going and it takes a lot of investment to even get to the first steps. This feels like low tier-4, maybe tier 5, it's got a few useful tricks, but they are completely overshadowed by how much investment it takes to get them.

Note: I really like the idea of building your class features from the basics, but we need more tools to do it with. I suggest the following as possible changes (not necessarily all of them together, but at least a few) upping the cap on prowess invested into a knack, give the class more prowess, decrease the cost of some of the more prohibitive enhancements (power really should not cost 6 for a +1 DC or +1 damage/die), give knacks more options at the base level and/or give it more class features.

EDIT: Also, charisma is kind of pointless for this Sorcerer, which makes me wonder why it's even called a sorcerer at this point seeing as it has almost nothing in common with one. It is entirely possible to put play a Dwarf Sorcerer with 6 charisma, as long as you don't grab anything with a DC. Unless making the class almost completely NAD was your intention, giving it a tad more reason to focus on an ability score might be good.

AmberVael

2013-09-06, 02:06 PM

I rather liked the old "Sorceror" class presented for d20r (though it had issues), and I'm a fan of the Tome of Radiance system which has a similar 'build your own magic' portion, so this is not new ground for me, and I obviously do like the premise.

That being said, my knee jerk reaction to the class is not positive, and when I stop and think about it, it's not necessarily about what the class does as what you have set it out as: a replacement for the sorcerer. I don't think the sorcerer needs replacement. Not only does it hold up mechanically, but I feel spontaneous casting is a legitimate feature that is as fun- if not more fun- than prepared casting. So to just replace it seems... pointless. Why is it necessary to completely supplant the class with an entirely new system? Why not just keep sorcerer and make this a separate class? Call it the magus or something and have both.

With that out of the way, I do actually like the mechanical concept, so lets dig into that a bit.

Arcane Senses seems fine. Automatically getting true seeing seems a little out of place, but it's not really objectionable.

Bloodlines! I like bloodlines. That being said, I wonder a little bit about Abyssal and Celestial- that's a pretty big boost to caster level. Among other things, that would seem to boost your ability to add Enhancements a good bit earlier. That seems fairly valuable, especially compared to the others- and especially since they are very broad and apply to about half of knacks each.
Also, Abyssal... "any Knack which applies a penalty or negative effect by 4." Penalty is fine, but "negative effect" is the kind of broad, vague wording that got iron heart surge in trouble. Damage definitely seems like a negative effect to me, which basically means that abyssal is better than dragon at its own game and then some for quite some time.

Two other more minor nitpicks. One, stop saying "elemental flavor." Elements aren't ice cream, we're not eating them. :smalltongue: The wording that is typically used is just 'energy,' perhaps with a parenthetical list for clarification.
And second, there's no Draconic type. It's Dragon.

Augmentations. A way to temporarily boost powers to get a more nova effect. Nice. This is something I've thought a lot of at will style classes were missing- part of the reason they struggle. If they had a few ways to boost themselves every so often, they'd work better. Admittedly, I'd prefer to go for something more like a per encounter boost than a per day boost, but that's just me.
Most of it seems okay at a glance, except Extend. I really don't think I like Extend. For most of the buffs, it isn't worth it to spend this resource on something that you can just renew at will for free. On the flipside, it is terrifying for the more offensive save or lose powers, especially ones that have been appropriately Enhanced. With a proper build, you can use this to daze someone for minutes on a single save by level 5.

Knacks! First, you need to explicitly state how often you can use knacks. I've been assuming it's at will, but you never really say. Second, as spell-like abilities, Knacks will require effective spell levels to work properly, else there will be problems when interacting with other game mechanics.
All the current knacks look decent to me (well, other than Protect- protect is really quite underpowered), but there is a distinct lack of variety and versatility among them. With only this array, the class is pretty much worthless beyond battle... non-combat applications is what I advise you work on next. Stuff like Telekinesis, Command, and telepathy would work fairly well for this system, I think. You may wish to experiment a bit more with opening out new power uses with the Power enhancement- you might broaden something like Command to Suggestion, or Telepathy to Detect Thoughts.
Also, I think the class could probably use a few more knacks. Classes with so few powers, even if the powers are substantial, just are really stretched thin and a bit more stressful to build. I think it'd also be fine to start off with two knacks just to give the class some variety at first level.

Enhancements... I think this part needs a lot more work.

Area. This is really cheap, and partially nonsensical. For 2 points, an incredibly low number, you can affect a very large area instead of a single target. And while it adds a reflex for half save in addition to any other saves... sometimes it doesn't do anything. When I add Area to Mindlock, and it gets reflex for half... what does that mean? You can't be half dazed. It's only the cost of increasing range that holds this back, and honestly I think you have it a bit backwards there- range increases should likely be cheaper, and Area more expensive.

Duration. For the buffs, okay. It's only really worth purchasing once so you don't have to recast constantly. However, this is basically the Dire version of the Extend augmentation for the debuffs. Two iterations of this- something you can accomplish by level 5- can make a save or lose power's effects last for an entire combat. One more can disable an opponent practically indefinitely. This may be a bit too much for at will powers.

Energy substitution. The Protect knack is the only place that the minor and major versions of this are elaborated on- everywhere else is mute on the subject. This needs elucidation.

Energy admixture- I feel like this one is a bit underpriced, or perhaps should just be eliminated. Given that you've opted for higher initial damage, and you can boost damage further through augmentation and the dragon bloodline, and even power too, and you also have option for swift actions... I don't think this is very necessary for the Damage powers. It isn't worthwhile on Protect, but that's a fault of the knack. The only one it really works well with is Cripple.

Supernatural Ability... is this really worth that much? I mean yeah, it's good to have, but in the end, is it equal to the ability to double duration, or use something as a swift action, or target everyone in a larger radius? It's just a bit too situational, I think. I'd call this a 6 point ability at most, but probably 4.

DR27

2013-09-06, 02:21 PM

Knacks may be purchased more than once. Enhancements are tracked separately. Thus you could have purchased Magic Bolt twice, one augmented with Supernatural Enhancement and Power, the other with several Area and Energy Substitute options. So you have a single-target blast that is probably going to land and hurt, and one that has a lot of flexibility, but is subject to SR and doesn't hit as hard.
I think that the intent for enhancements was that you could apply them to a knack that you already possess, it could use the clarification though. If you can apply them to a previous knack, it's much better, though I still feel that there are issues (which I'll get into later).It was that bit that confused me, didn't do the math to understand that the reason he was giving two Magic Bolts as an example was the CL+3 thingy. Even then, it's not spelled out in the Enhancements section, where the only example of how they work is of a 10th level Sorcerer blowing 12 Prowess Points (why are they prowess points instead of Enhancement Points?) - that guy was saving them up.

Needs clear wording on how Enhancements are purchased (and applied), because this bit:
As another example, a 10th level Sorcerer wishes to have several blasting options. He purchases Area 3 times (Cone, Sphere, and Line), and Energy Substitution twice (Cold and Lightning). He can blast in Fire, Cold, or Lightning and can apply this as a ranged touch attack, or in a Cone, Sphere, or Line area effect. If he then wants to apply the Energy Admixture Enhancement, he needs to wait another three levels.Doesn't even specify a Knack that it's being used with. It leaves the reader lost.

I think the OP needs to try and make a build himself to start seeing some problems and illustrate how he wants the class to work. This seems like a pretty good example of a good concept that was put into a write-up without any builds being created or play time experienced. Kinda a Truenamer situation.

EDIT:
Also this:
I don't think the sorcerer needs replacement. Not only does it hold up mechanically, but I feel spontaneous casting is a legitimate feature that is as fun- if not more fun- than prepared casting. So to just replace it seems... pointless. Why is it necessary to completely supplant the class with an entirely new system? Why not just keep sorcerer and make this a separate class? Call it the magus or something and have both.

Amnoriath

2013-09-06, 04:56 PM

I, for one, wouldn't mind if some of Amnoriath's criticisms were a little more constructive. You've basically told him you didn't like his stuff and cited increasingly obscure reasons for why it's terrible - all well and good, but what specifically can Shneeky do to improve it?

Look, I gave him reasons why it doesn't work and a method to help improve it on his own. Then I just continued to defend my points. The fact is I don't like to tell people what they should exactly do with their classes unless they ask me to. He hasn't asked for me to give my personal fixes.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-06, 07:07 PM

First off, thank you to everyone who provided relevant feedback, I really do appreciate it, and I have made the following changes based on this feedback:

*Prowess Points are now Enhancement Points. This was a holdover from d20r, and it just makes more sense to now use Enhancement Points. Also clarified how they are to be used.

*Clarified the examples, I will be producing a sample character shortly, however I'm actually taking the time to be certain that it actually follows the rules, unlike most splatbook examples.

* Enhancement points per level is now 1 + (1/2 Charisma Mod), maximum of 5 (1 + a maximum of 4). Using straight Charisma Mod would have given way too many enhancement points, however they are retroactive to make it easier to calculate for higher level characters. This should *significantly* increase the flexibility and power of the class. This also makes Charisma actually relevant to the class.

* Clarified bloodline ability for Demonic to specifically state 'applies a penalty or inflicts a Condition' with a link to the D20SRD for the Conditions Summary page.

* Energy Substitution: Clarified Minor and Major energy effects in a couple of Knacks. In most cases, where elemental damage is being inflicted, Cold and Lightning are Minor wheras Acid and Sonic are Major.

* Added a new Knack which effectively duplicates Mage Hand and Open/Close, but with a higher cap on weight being moved, and with Power enhancment can duplicate Telekineses and also permits ranged use of some skills with an additional Spellcraft check.

* Minor typos and other problems fixed.

DR27

2013-09-06, 08:02 PM

That's a start, but you still have two class abilities called "Speed" - that's confusing, to say the least.

There still is no clarification on how Enhancements are utilized/purchased - Can I buy Enhancements to old Knacks, adding on? Can I only buy Enhancements at the same time as I gain a Knack? Do I have to use a purchased Enhancement, or can I choose whether or not it's active when I use my Knack?

Are Knacks at-will spell-like abilities? Say it explicitly, the SRD entry on spell like abilities says that the entry will specify. In fact, the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) explicitly says they provoke AoO unless you succeed on the concentration check to cast defensively - why don't Knacks?

What spell level do they count as? They need that to properly interact with feats for Spell-like abilities. Why are the DCs keyed off of your HD instead of caster level or something else related to the class? Can I jump out and have the DC's scale?

Do you find it a problem that a Sorcerer will be immediately identifiable as one in social situations due to his wings? Or that he can't use his abilities while flying because he can't hover? Should one class ability prevent you from using another?

Full-round actions mean that standard, your Sorcerer is about as mobile as a Dwarven Defender - do you think that is a good idea considering that the majority of Knacks are combat-oriented? Or should they have different casting times and ranges based on what they do? The example I gave of how incredibly bad buffing is as a full-round, touch only affair really illustrates what I'm talking about. Giving them more Enhancement Points doesn't really solve the problem - it just traps players who fail to see that they must spend their points on accelerating their casting times and range. Options should start out useful/worthwhile, and enhancement points make them better from there. Instead of suck, but here are some points you can spend to make them into viable options.

Why are there so many (25% of total) dead levels?

Don't just clarify the issues these questions ask, incorporate the answers into your class.

The most important question I have though, is do you really think that 11 tricks over 20 levels is enough for a player to feel useful and interesting? Try and think what it would be like to play the class at each level - do you always have something to do from your class that is worthwhile? You might ultimately decide that this Sorcerer has enough options, but looking at it level by level, I think they might need a little more.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-06, 08:38 PM

That's a start, but you still have two class abilities called "Speed" - that's confusing, to say the least.One is a knack, the other is an enhancement. If you prefer, I can change the name of one of them.

There still is no clarification on how Enhancements are utilized/purchased - Can I buy Enhancements to old Knacks, adding on? Can I only buy Enhancements at the same time as I gain a Knack? Do I have to use a purchased Enhancement, or can I choose whether or not it's active when I use my Knack?I should have thought it was obvious, but I shall clarify these points.

Are Knacks at-will spell-like abilities? Say it explicitly, the SRD entry on spell like abilities says that the entry will specify. In fact, the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) explicitly says they provoke AoO unless you succeed on the concentration check to cast defensively - why don't Knacks?

Spellcasting: Sorcerers use Knacks, which are effectively Spell-Like Abilities usable at-will. I did explicitly say it. The immunity to AoO is being edited out, that was another holdover.

What spell level do they count as? They need that to properly interact with feats for Spell-like abilities. Why are the DCs keyed off of your HD instead of caster level or something else related to the class? Can I jump out and have the DC's scale? DC's are keyed off of HD instead of caster level because it follows the exact same formula as 10+Spell Level+ Cha Mod. However, if you prefer, I can simply say all Knacks have a Spell Level equivelant to 1/2 HD. That way you don't have abilities which grow obsolete as your character progresses, and every ability is going to be relevant at every stage of character development.

Do you find it a problem that a Sorcerer will be immediately identifiable as one in social situations due to his wings? Or that he can't use his abilities while flying because he can't hover? Should one class ability prevent you from using another? I don't know what you are trying to say here. Spell-Like Abilities do not have somatic components, flying isn't going to affect them one way or another.

Wings are going to be obvious unless hidden, just like any other wings. I'm not even sure why you brought that up?

Hover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#hover) is a feat that a Sorcerer may purchase if he wishes, since he has a fly speed.

Full-round actions mean that standard, your Sorcerer is about as mobile as a Dwarven Defender - do you think that is a good idea considering that the majority of Knacks are combat-oriented? Or should they have different casting times and ranges based on what they do? The example I gave of how incredibly bad buffing is as a full-round, touch only affair really illustrates what I'm talking about. Giving them more Enhancement Points doesn't really solve the problem - it just traps players who fail to see that they must spend their points on accelerating their casting times and range. Options should start out useful/worthwhile, and enhancement points make them better from there. Instead of suck, but here are some points you can spend to make them into viable options.First off, I would like to direct you to the Speed augmentation to solve this problem. I would also like to direct you to the Quicken augmentation which can be used on the fly.

Second, Being 'as mobile as a Dwarven Defender' is irrelevant when you can hit the entire field at-will with whatever you want. The problem with the DD is that he is a melee class that can't close. Sorcerers are a ranged class, they don't NEED to close.

Options need to be able to scale, because any of them may be taken at first level. They *ARE* worthwhile at first level. They simply aren't 'encounter-enders' like casters currently are. This is intentional. Part of what I am doing is scaling back the power from Tier 1-2 to Tier 3. Their DC's scale, their bonuses/penalties/damage scale.

Magic Bolt, with zero enhancements, is still a Ranged Touch Attack with roughly double the damage output of a Warlock's Eldritch Blast all by itself. With Enhancements, it makes even HFW look pale in comparison.

Why are there so many (25% of total) dead levels?Because those are prime numbers, and I don't want to unbalance the class by giving them still more abilities at those levels.

The most important question I have though, is do you really think that 11 tricks over 20 levels is enough for a player to feel useful and interesting? Try and think what it would be like to play the class at each level - do you always have something to do from your class that is worthwhile? You might ultimately decide that this Sorcerer has enough options, but looking at it level by level, I think they might need a little more.

It's still better than what Warlock can do, since each 'trick' has multiple applications.

DR27

2013-09-06, 09:05 PM

I don't know what you are trying to say here. Spell-Like Abilities do not have somatic components, flying isn't going to affect them one way or another.

Wings are going to be obvious unless hidden, just like any other wings. I'm not even sure why you brought that up?

Hover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#hover) is a feat that a Sorcerer may purchase if he wishes, since he has a fly speed.You are going to do what you're gonna do for the rest, but this one I though might benefit from clarification. When you get flying, unless you have taken effort to speed up your Knacks - you can't fly and cast a Knack in the same round. I think it's a trap to give players an ability that doesn't work off the shelf with his other abilities. You may disagree, as you have illustrated with your position that buff spells don't have to be worthwhile when you first get them. (i.e., at least be touch range instead of personal)

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-06, 09:34 PM

You are going to do what you're gonna do for the rest, but this one I though might benefit from clarification. When you get flying, unless you have taken effort to speed up your Knacks - you can't fly and cast a Knack in the same round. I think it's a trap to give players an ability that doesn't work off the shelf with his other abilities. You may disagree, as you have illustrated with your position that buff spells don't have to be worthwhile when you first get them. (i.e., at least be touch range instead of personal)

Look again at Augments. You can Quicken if you need it. You can Hover if you want to buy the feat and continue doing it. Both of these are solutions which are available once you get your flight. Hover is a permanent solution, Quicken is an off-the-cuff solution.

Party buffing at-will is horribly powerful. One of the strongest characters I have ever devised was the 'ClericZilla' with Chain + Reach to buff the whole party. If I don't limit it to needing more EP to get Reach a couple of times, you'll have party buffing going on to the point where no CR even encounter could possibly threaten them.

Let's look at Defense. Pick up Duration and Reach a couple of times, then a few Energy Substitutions. Now you've got 4x (1/4 CL) bonus to AC as a force effect. That goes from 'unable to be missed except on a natural 1' to 'unable to be hit except on a natural 20' by the upper mid to lower end game. You want broke? There's your broke. It is Shield + Shield of Faith + Barkskin all rolled into one, and able to be Enhanced to the point where you can effectively have them all 'always on'.

Remember, you can spam these things, so all you really need is Rounds/level to ensure that they will always be up. You don't even need Energy Admixture for this one, just cast Shield bonus one round, Natural Armor bonus the next round, and Deflection the round after that. Then just keep going until they stop fading, when you renew them. Particularly with Chain, this is amazingly powerful.

AmberVael

2013-09-06, 09:42 PM

It's still better than what Warlock can do, since each 'trick' has multiple applications.

This isn't really the case. Ultimately the diversity of the knacks is in targeting, speed of casting, and damage types, and while this is helpful, a warlock that chooses their powers carefully will end up with far more diversity, even if they don't have as much raw power. While you can modify Magic Bolt to harm a target or an area or deal lighting or sonic damage, ultimately it is only the method of delivery that changes- the end effect does not. And as something like the Warmage proves, variations on one ability does not make you versatile.

A warlock can choose a single power that can entangle their foes, provide concealment, and further allow them to hide even when they're observed. A warlock has an invocation that allows them easy escape, swift travel, and faster healing. A warlock can use Animate Dead, to create disposable minions, attain movement modes, or even various utility functions. The warlock gets Baleful Utterance, which can stun, destroy items, and in general be a pain.

There's a lot that invocations can do, even single invocations. But Warlock still gets too few, too late. The Sorcerer gets even less than the warlock, and while they have powers that are more arguably more potent, they have even less variety available to choose from, and less chance that their powers will apply to any given situation. In combat, they'll probably be better. Outside of it...

Let's look at Defense. Pick up Duration and Reach a couple of times, then a few Energy Substitutions. Now you've got 4x (1/4 CL) bonus to AC as a force effect. That goes from 'unable to be missed except on a natural 1' to 'unable to be hit except on a natural 20' by the upper mid to lower end game. You want broke? There's your broke. It is Shield + Shield of Faith + Barkskin all rolled into one, and able to be Enhanced to the point where you can effectively have them all 'always on'.
Also this doesn't actually work. It's the same spell with different results. You only get one.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-07, 12:27 AM

This isn't really the case. Ultimately the diversity of the knacks is in targeting, speed of casting, and damage types, and while this is helpful, a warlock that chooses their powers carefully will end up with far more diversity, even if they don't have as much raw power. While you can modify Magic Bolt to harm a target or an area or deal lighting or sonic damage, ultimately it is only the method of delivery that changes- the end effect does not. And as something like the Warmage proves, variations on one ability does not make you versatile.Right. Out of a SINGLE knack, you've just duplicated everything the entire Warmage class can do. One knack, reproducing an entire class.

A warlock can choose a single power that can entangle their foes, provide concealment, and further allow them to hide even when they're observed. A warlock has an invocation that allows them easy escape, swift travel, and faster healing. A warlock can use Animate Dead, to create disposable minions, attain movement modes, or even various utility functions. The warlock gets Baleful Utterance, which can stun, destroy items, and in general be a pain.Umm... no. Baleful Utterance is a Shatter. It can't stun, it can't destroy magical items, and mundane items aren't a problem. It's fun, but ultimately not that powerful. Warlock's Animate Dead can a) only be used on corpses that are actually there, so utility depends on what they just attacked, and b) unless you're willing to spend the cash on Onyx, they only last an hour, which isn't long enough to do much with.

There's a lot that invocations can do, even single invocations. But Warlock still gets too few, too late. The Sorcerer gets even less than the warlock, and while they have powers that are more arguably more potent, they have even less variety available to choose from, and less chance that their powers will apply to any given situation. In combat, they'll probably be better. Outside of it...Variety is found within the knacks themselves and the various Enhancements given to them. As you pointed out before, one knack is duplicating an entire class's spellcasting, doing it better, and doing it at-will (even if that class IS only Tier 4).

They can beat the Warlock out on Battlefield Control, Blasting, Save or Lose lockdown, and do all three simultaneously. About the only thing they can't do is abuse the action economy, which is done deliberately as a limiting factor.

Also this doesn't actually work. It's the same spell with different results. You only get one.Wrong. Different bonus types so they stack with each other.

AmberVael

2013-09-07, 01:39 AM

Umm... no. Baleful Utterance is a Shatter. It can't stun, it can't destroy magical items, and mundane items aren't a problem. It's fun, but ultimately not that powerful.

"If a creature is holding or wearing the target of the spell and the target is destroyed, the creature must make a fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round and deafened for 1 minute by your terrible word."
Baleful Utterance, Complete Arcane, page 132.

Warlock's Animate Dead can a) only be used on corpses that are actually there, so utility depends on what they just attacked, and b) unless you're willing to spend the cash on Onyx, they only last an hour, which isn't long enough to do much with.
In battle, you use it for free to get some sacrificial chumps. Outside of battle, you spend an absolutely trial amount of gold to raise some useful entities permanently. For the price of the typical level 1 wand, or a single 4th level scroll, you can animate about 30 hit dice worth of undead. That's a small amount of money for an impressive amount of effect.

Variety is found within the knacks themselves and the various Enhancements given to them. As you pointed out before, one knack is duplicating an entire class's spellcasting, doing it better, and doing it at-will (even if that class IS only Tier 4).
My point was that the enhancements aren't enough. Enhancements don't add effects, they just alter them. They don't grant anything new so much as they- as the name suggests- enhance what is already there. No matter how many enhancements you add to damage, it's still just damage and in the end there are only so many ways you can use that.

Wrong. Different bonus types so they stack with each other.

Different bonus types do stack with one another. That's not the problem. The problem is that you're casting the same spell on yourself four times, which goes into the "combining magical effects" rules.

Namely this section:

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Now, this section does also clarify that different bonus types stack, but it specifically says:

Different Bonus Names
The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.
The Protect Knack is the Protect Knack, regardless of whether it has had one bonus type substituted in or the other. You cast it multiple times, you only get the latest one.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-07, 02:04 AM

"If a creature is holding or wearing the target of the spell and the target is destroyed, the creature must make a fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round and deafened for 1 minute by your terrible word."
Baleful Utterance, Complete Arcane, page 132.You know, in the nearly decade of playing with Warlocks, that situation has never come up. First off, your target would have to have something capable of being shattered by your Baleful Utterance, then they have to fail their Will save (see Shatter spell, Will save negates the shatter effect, and if it is an attended object, the wielder gets the saving throw), THEN it gets a Fort save. So yea... not really all that viable. Ever.

In battle, you use it for free to get some sacrificial chumps. Outside of battle, you spend an absolutely trial amount of gold to raise some useful entities permanently. For the price of the typical level 1 wand, or a single 4th level scroll, you can animate about 30 hit dice worth of undead. That's a small amount of money for an impressive amount of effect.30 HD of zombies or skeletons are not impressive, they aren't even speed bumps. About the best you can hope for is that you run into a Hydra or something. However, without the feat investment, that hydra is never going to really be pulling its weight around.

My point was that the enhancements aren't enough. Enhancements don't add effects, they just alter them. They don't grant anything new so much as they- as the name suggests- enhance what is already there. No matter how many enhancements you add to damage, it's still just damage and in the end there are only so many ways you can use that.You keep focusing on that one knack and forget that there's other things you can do as well. I'm just pointing out that a single knack replaces an entire class. They're not as inflexible as you might think. If you think about it, a lot of spells are just variations on a single theme, all I'm doing is giving you access to the themes rather than the specifics.

Different bonus types do stack with one another. That's not the problem. The problem is that you're casting the same spell on yourself four times, which goes into the "combining magical effects" rules.

Namely this section:

Now, this section does also clarify that different bonus types stack, but it specifically says:

The Protect Knack is the Protect Knack, regardless of whether it has had one bonus type substituted in or the other. You cast it multiple times, you only get the latest one.

Exception explicitly stated. That one knack is supposed to cover about four different spells, like most of the other knacks.

Have you gotten the idea yet? The spells Shield, Mage Armor, Barkskin, and Shield of Faith... all rolled into a single knack. Four spells for the price of one knack.

Spells are specific effects, Knacks are broad categories which can produce a variety of specific effects.

DR27

2013-09-07, 02:41 AM

Look again at Augments. You can Quicken if you need it. You can Hover if you want to buy the feat and continue doing it. Both of these are solutions which are available once you get your flight. Hover is a permanent solution, Quicken is an off-the-cuff solution.My problem is not that your class can't expend resources to achieve harmony between it's abilities, it is that you are required to expend resources in order to make one hardwired ability (fly) function with the main schtick (Knack) - I find it a problem that they don't work together straight off the shelf. I fully understand that you don't consider it a problem. But don't pretend that I just don't understand that there is the option to expend resources. It's one thing to think that you need to expend resources in order to make abilities across classes interact properly, but it's insane to say that options within a class need additional resources in order to work together. I think they should work together before any resources are spent. This pretty much means that the majority of Knacks are standard actions without enhancement. I know you don't like that, but I want you to think about it, and what it all means. I am really trying to figure out why you choose to give a class the maneuverability of fly as a class feature while also rooting them in one place in order to use their main ability.

That's the biggest problem I have with this class as constructed - the optimization floor is low - it is very possible to make the wrong choice and end up with crap. All the best options end up centering around speeding up your Knack use, and buffs are taxed with tons of range enhancements.

One characteristic of a good class (in my opinion) is that the options given are worth using when you get them without further enhancement. Many of yours aren't worth using without enhancement/expending additional resources. That sucks. I know you don't think so, but you also have done nothing to explain why it's okay.

AmberVael

2013-09-07, 02:42 AM

These specific nitpicks aren't really addressing my overall point, so I'm going to return to what I was really trying to say, and come at it from another angle.

I am contesting that this class cannot deal with multiple situations. Their powers can vary and be altered, but not in a substantial enough way to give them diverse options. In the tier system thread, JaronK presented three situations as an example of how a class might contribute or struggle to contribute in a campaign. They were as follows:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

How much of this can the class really contribute to?

Exception explicitly stated. That one knack is supposed to cover about four different spells, like most of the other knacks.

Have you gotten the idea yet? The spells Shield, Mage Armor, Barkskin, and Shield of Faith... all rolled into a single knack. Four spells for the price of one knack.

Spells are specific effects, Knacks are broad categories which can produce a variety of specific effects.

This pretty much highlights what I'm disagreeing with you over. Adding to your armor class, adding to your armor class, adding to your armor class, and adding to your armor class are not "a variety of specific effects." It's one effect, four times with slightly different flavor. Admittedly it makes your armor class high... but that's still just doing one thing. One very, very specific thing.

DR27

2013-09-07, 03:02 AM

How much of this can the class really contribute to?You are right, the class is pretty low tier at this point, but I think it has the potential for the OP to add Knacks in order to increase the number of situations that it can contribute to and achieve a higher Tier. I'll let the OP go over it one by one though - might provoke some interesting thoughts and get Shneeaky to increase the versatility a bit, instead of focusing on the raw power. I really want to see him create a build from level one to level X in order to see how frustrating it would be in it's current configuration if you wanted to do anything besides blast/debuff. (hell, I think it should have been the second post to post a couple of level by level builds as an example of how the class works) The problem is that blasting/debuffing is probably low T4, maybe high T5. There is a good, interesting chassis to build on, but it's not being fully utilized.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-07, 04:44 AM

My problem is not that your class can't expend resources to achieve harmony between it's abilities, it is that you are required to expend resources in order to make one hardwired ability (fly) function with the main schtick (Knack) - I find it a problem that they don't work together straight off the shelf. I fully understand that you don't consider it a problem. But don't pretend that I just don't understand that there is the option to expend resources. It's one thing to think that you need to expend resources in order to make abilities across classes interact properly, but it's insane to say that options within a class need additional resources in order to work together. I think they should work together before any resources are spent. This pretty much means that the majority of Knacks are standard actions without enhancement. I know you don't like that, but I want you to think about it, and what it all means. I am really trying to figure out why you choose to give a class the maneuverability of fly as a class feature while also rooting them in one place in order to use their main ability.

That's the biggest problem I have with this class as constructed - the optimization floor is low - it is very possible to make the wrong choice and end up with crap. All the best options end up centering around speeding up your Knack use, and buffs are taxed with tons of range enhancements.

One characteristic of a good class (in my opinion) is that the options given are worth using when you get them without further enhancement. Many of yours aren't worth using without enhancement/expending additional resources. That sucks. I know you don't think so, but you also have done nothing to explain why it's okay.

I have a somewhat different philosophy, permit me to share it with you:

1) Resources are there to be used. If you have no need to use them, why bother spending them? Let me put it to you another way:

Melee without Pounce has far less mobility than this class has, and worse, it desperately needs that mobility in order to function. However, a melee class who gains pounce suddenly gains an enormous power boost in terms of being able to be an effective threat and being mobile. The same thing happens to Sorcerers who pick up the feat Hover. In the meantime, he can simply stand there and lock/blast everything down. After all, mobility is only a problem when your opponent has more than you do. Being rooted into place kind of puts a hamper on that. Or being Dazed. Or Nauseated. It isn't so much that the class needs mobility as the class can level the playing field by removing his opponent's.

2) Being able to do everything simultaneously is a bad thing. It is one of the things with full vanican casters that I have a problem with. This class is aimed at being a Tier 3 class. It's not supposed to do everything, nor should it be expected to. However, it has enough variation in its abilities that it can bypass or negate any situational immunities and still achieve its goal.

3) Let's talk about Spells Known versus Knacks. Most of the knacks can duplicate quite a few spells. To have that same kind of versitility, an old Sorcerer would need to cripple himself by purchasing multiple similar spells. However, failing to do so may mean that he ends up running into specific immunities.

So lets look at some of these Knacks and see what they are actually doing:

Elemental Blade. It's basically DFI. Which is stupidly powerful. Remember, there are things with elemental vulnerability as well as resistance. Let's take that Black Dragon encounter into consideration. They are not resistant to Fire, nor Cold, nor Lightning. Buffing up his allies weapons with this basically gives everyone a force multiplier.

Disrupt Magic. Think Dispel Magic but without a CL cap. Including, explicitly, counterspelling capability.

Obscure. Right off the bat, this is immunity to precision-based damage, irregardless of any other consideration, unless the opponent can bypass your concealment miss chance. Second off: Miss Chance > AC. And it automatically scales as you level. Reach twice and Chain it... now the whole party has miss chance. It's like buying everyone a Lesser Cloak of Displacement, then it just keeps getting better as you level with no further resource requirement of your own.

Slow. Right off the bat, it has Close range and duration of Rounds/Level. With zero EP spent. Buy Chain once, and you're done.

Speed. Really what we are looking at right here is automatically scaling untyped attack bonuses and dodge bonuses to AC , even without the bonus haste attack.

Furthermore, what we are looking at here is the chassis. I had always intended to make more Knacks later on, as needed. However, I really didn't see many situations where one of these knacks wouldn't be effective without making every other class obsolete.

I explicitly did *NOT* make any charm/dominate effects, because they completely eliminate the need for 'party face' skills. I explicitly did NOT add in any 'find traps' or 'knock' abilities because that completely eliminates the need for 'trapspringer'. That isn't this class's role. This class is designed to provide arcane support for the class via blasting, battlefield control and lockdown capability.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.
Wrong class. You're wanting a Rogue or a Bard or Beguiler for that task. In fact, being effective at this would be very BAD because it would mean obsoleting an entire set of classes.

I also explicitly did not include any sort of teleportation effects because that is a potential campaign breaker. It gives the party too many ways of completely bypassing obstacles. I also explicitly did NOT include Rope Trick/MMM/other extradimensional shenanigans for the same reason.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war. A huge army of orcs is a fairly trivial problem for this class. Area effects are pathetically easy for this class to throw around. In fact, this is one of those situations where blastomancy is the flavor of the day. Remember: UNLIMITED usage Knacks. If this class were standing on the walls of Minas Tirith, the orcs would have been burned alive, starting with the siege engines.

In short, he doesn't help the city prepare. He stands on the wall for a good vantage point and begins blasting until there are no more orcs left.