Is This A Big Hint That Tarquin Has Lost It?

[eilandesq]

Tarquin, let's remember, is the one who taught *Nale* that bards were underpowered (leading to a ridiculously complicated class setup that basically made him a bard wannabe). He also remembers fighting Elan one on one recently and knows that in spite of the aid of a Munchkiny prestige class that might as well have been (and was, looking at it from a meta standpoint) made for him, he is absolutely *not* a frontline fighter for his level (he matched up well against Nale, who was also not a frontline fighter). Whether it is from a logical, genre savvy, or straight out metagaming standpoint, Elan is most useful to the Order in most situations by doing *exactly* what he did in the fight against the disguised Tarquin--use bard songs, cast an occasional illusion if it might be helpful, and (perhaps) be prepared to add a blade if someone else arrives. Even if Elan had an 18 intelligence and twice Nale's planning ability with none of the megalomania, he would have no business taking the lead role in a fight as a bard/Dashing Swordsman.

So what does Tarquin do? :

1) Demands that Elan take the leadership role in the Order;

2) When Elan (sensibly) declines, Tarquin orders the summary execution of the Order's two frontline fighters and cleric, which--with the party already missing its wizard--leaves Elan and Haley alone to deal with what Tarquin *knows* to be a world-threatening crisis, and with Haley distracted with her father being under a "dead or live" bounty.

3) Assuming for the sake of argument that Tarquin somehow replaced the now missing or deceased Order members with superior (in terms of levels and perhaps class/specialization choices) substitutes, Elan is still not fit to lead them, and he knows it (as would the new party members). Great formula for success there, Tarquin.

Reasonable conclusion: Tarquin's gone nuts, either from the strain of having to kill Nale, the loss of one of his best friends, the shock of being rattled in his delusion that Elan is the leader of the OotS, or all of the above. One wonders if his longtime teammates will note this and start enacting any protocols that *they* have prepared in case of such an event occurring.

[CRtwenty]

You have to understand that Tarquin sees himself as the main villian in the story. And killing the mentor figure is one of the key things that vilians do that forces the Hero to man up and start fighting seriously.

He doesn't see it as crippling Elan, he sees it as Darth Vader killing Obi-Wan to force Luke to stop hiding behind him. In addition killing Elan's friends will cause him to swear vengeance on his Father in a personal way making their final confrontation even more dramatic.

[ManuelSacha]

1) What does that have to do with anything? From his point of view, it makes perfect sense to expect Elan to be the leader.

2/3) Just pure speculation on your part. Maybe you and the tactical genius should just agree to disagree.

Regardless, he IS being genre savvy.
It's just not the same genre you're thinking of.
It's "Swashbuckling hero movies", not "D&D party tactics" that he's concerned about.
And if there is one thing that both Tarquin and Elan (and Julio) have made perfectly clear, is that following the clichés DOES give you an actual advantage in combat in the OotS world, regardless of what we, in the real world, might think.

[Lord Raziere]

Lost it?

Tarquin is a sociopath who forces women to marry him through torture, burns a bunch of slaves to spell out letters of his sons name, kills his other own son without any remorse, views everyone around him as plot devices, and concocts cruel schemes to pettily get payback upon people who got the better of him that he integrates into his wider plan of oppression, propaganda and lies and thinks that His and Elan's story is more important than everyone else's. He literally has written a note down to someday punch a bunny.

Since when did he ever have it?

[Zerter]

I am with the OP on this one. I have seen a bunch of people argue that this is perfectly in-character for Tarquin, that he is following the genres and that it has been established that he does not care much for his own survival. But this is downright suicide. I do not expect the entire world to understand that The Order needs to succeed for them to live, but Tarquin at least seemed to get it up to this point. It goes against the entire Tarquin-as-the-smart-villain thing that he had going up to this point.

[Obscure Blade]

It goes against the entire Tarquin-as-the-smart-villain thing that he had going up to this point.It does fit perfectly with Tarquin as the guy who sees himself as central to the story and everyone as a plot device, however. He's blind to the possibility that he's the side-quest, not the Gates.

[Saph]

I'd agree with the OP, Tarquin's acting very irrational all of a sudden. He already knows that the OotS are fighting a villain who's a genuine threat to his empire – all he has to do is sit back and let them do his work for him.

[The Pilgrim]

Par for the course for Tarquin.

He believes himself as the center of the universe. That other "side quest", he either will go to stamp himself with his army, or don't care at all.

In addition, he has started to treat Elan like Nale. He has been lenient with Elan, until now, while he learnt about him and made plans, but now... for each time his son tells him off, he's gonna punish him back. First Haley, now his Friends. He even has threatened him with that "you are starting to sound like Nale".

The message is clear: Collaborate in my story, or else...

[TRH]

Another thing; why should Tarquin worry about the world maybe ending? It's never happened before! As far as he knows...:smallwink:

[Savil]

Actually, Tarquin doesn't really know what OotS is up against.

First he heard that there is 'a very important quest' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) and himself made an assumption about 'a cliched villain bent on world conquest' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), based on the fact that the quest is more important for Elan than staying at the festival.
Then Nale told about the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html), never specifically mentioning Xykon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the existence of an epic sorcerer lich is actually unknown to Tarquin.

So, the current impression of the OotS's quest for Tarquin is most probably 'There's a villain and defeating him is important for Elan, but this is nothing I can't deal with myself if something goes wrong'.

[SinsI]

Exactly this. First he tells how it is so very important to him they succeed - and next he backstabs them, destroying almost all the chances they do.

Extremely inconsistent with his established modus operandi.

[Savil]

Exactly this. First he tells how it is so very important to him they succeed - and next he backstabs them, destroying almost all the chances they do.

Extremely inconsistent with his established modus operandi.
It is important to him that Elan succeeds. He doesn't care for Roy and others (except Haley but only because she's connected to Elan). Neither is their quest important for him, because:
a) he doesn't fully realize the scale of what is happening, and
b) he is self-confident enough to think that he with his resources can counter any real threat to the world

[stavro375]

Here's what's getting to me: Tarquin, who's been repeatedly characterized as a efficient and ruthless scheming mastermind, has established that he's depending on Elan to prevent the scenery-chewing villian from taking over the world, and is doing everything in his power to make Elan fail. I'm not going to take what may or may not become a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization lightly.

As far as I can see, there are 2 explanations for Tarquin's recent actions:
a)He's (become) an idiot. He's either putting too much faith in the "heroes always win" narrative than is called for, or genuinly doesn't care what the effects of his actions are.

b)He's lying about needing Elan to defeat scenery-chewing villain. Either he's already secured the final gate, or is about to, or something else that will almost certainly make the Order of the Stick little more than spectators in the last or second-to-last act of this strip.


In an unrelated point, I've had a recent reaction to the middle/end of Erfworld's book 2, where a character described as literally the "Perfect Warlord" executes a plan with the short-term effect of making him ignore a rapidly-changing battle for negligible tactical gain, and with the long-term effects of both infuriating a powerful but unorganized group his allies rely on and with direct access to his nation's capital and cementing his reputation as someone who under no circumstances should be trusted or negotiated with.

[Tebryn]

Or

3. He thinks that Elan can't fufil his role as hero in the state he is and just as murdered his other son in cold blood for refusing his aid, pushing his other son into the crucible.

[Kish]

I would suggest that, if Tarquin's writer characterizes him in a way that doesn't match the picture in your head, you should try to adjust the picture in your head. Not declare it "a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization."

[Anarion]

You seem to be under the impression that Tarquin has been sneaking a peak at the title of the strip and therefore should know that only the Order of the Stick can defeat the villain and win the day.

He has not. Tarquin has a certain form of self-centered narrative genre savvy, but that savvy is limited to his own ego and how others fit into his own view of the story. Tarquin's actions here fit almost perfectly with his character because his goal has always been to make Elan a main character because Elan is part of Tarquin's story.

[Shivore]

I think Tebryn has the point of it. Remember Tarquin only seems so great because of his understanding (and exploitation of) narrative structure.

So assume Elan is the main character of a story, and he is under Roy's wing. It's reasonable to assume that the story proper won't began until Elan's guide/mentor dies, leaving Elan to assume the role of true hero. Tarquin is making sure that happens now, rather than later.

In Tarquin's twisted mind, he's making sure Elan is ready to defeat Xykon sooner rather than later. His big error is not "becoming an idiot" but rather, assuming Elan is the main hero rather than Roy.

[littlebum2002]

As someone else pointed out in another thread (I wish I could take credit for this, but I can't)

Tarquin's actions make perfect sense. he thinks he's the main villain. Since Xykon is just a minor villian-of-the-week (in his mind), and since they are ALWAYS easily dispatched by the heroes, Elan and Haley should have no problem taking him out on their own using the Power of Plot.

So why is Tarquin killing the rest of the Order? The same reason Darth Vader killed Obi Wan: Kill the master to force the student (Luke) to take center stage and face you on his own.


It doesn't make sense at first, but when you really think about it, it really does. It totally fits in with Tarquin's genre mentality.

[KillianHawkeye]

I suggest that if this comic is making you upset in any way, then you should probably just stop reading it.

[Kish]

Tarquin, let's remember, is the one who taught *Nale* that bards were underpowered (leading to a ridiculously complicated class setup that basically made him a bard wannabe).

And later, he clarified that what he meant by that, was that their narrative mastery should permit them to rule the universe. Not that they're "underpowered" as in "weaker than other classes."

He explained his reasoning for his actions. It's perfectly consonant with the belief system he's had ever since he was introduced. And...*sighs*

I hate to say this. I really do. But...as far as "whatever is left of the Order will defeat this villain," he's right. He is, I hope, wrong that Elan will come back for him later, rather than someone (ideally not related to the Order) killing him before Xykon is destroyed. He's wrong about identifying Elan as the main character of the greater story; he's wrong in identifying himself as the main villain of the greater story. He is wrong to believe that he can force Elan to grow by killing Roy; he is wrong to believe that he can remove Roy from the story at all. But he's right that Xykon is not going to conquer the world. All these posts flipping out about him sabotaging the Order, such as this one about frontline fighters and weak bards, seem to hinge on a belief that Rich is going to roll dice to determine who comes out on top in the Order's final confrontation with Xykon. Tarquin is right, these posts are wrong.

[stavro375]

You seem to be under the impression that Tarquin has been sneaking a peak at the title of the strip and therefore should know that only the Order of the Stick can defeat the villain and win the day.
From his statement in strip 912 "when villains fight villains it's a toss-up ... As a true hero [Elan], you're much more narratively equipped to deal with this," I'm willing to conclude that Tarquin doubts his ability to deal with the situation himself. He might be lying, however.


I would suggest that, if Tarquin's writer characterizes him in a way that doesn't match the picture in your head, you should try to adjust the picture in your head. Not declare it "a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization."
I'm willing to argue that Tarquin's being a scheming mastermind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) willing to put the mission above his ego (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) aren't traits that just exist in my head.


As someone else pointed out in another thread (I wish I could take credit for this, but I can't)

Tarquin's actions make perfect sense. he thinks he's the main villain. Since Xykon is just a minor villian-of-the-week (in his mind), and since they are ALWAYS easily dispatched by the heroes, Elan and Haley should have no problem taking him out on their own using the Power of Plot.

That's... actually a fairly good point. I wonder if Tarquin would've done what he did if he knew that the villain-of-the-week was a Lich sorceror with (iirc) epic levels, his high-level cleric sidekick and a Monster in the Darkness with almost certainly lots of power.

[The Giant]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.

[MesiDoomstalker]

And later, he clarified that what he meant by that, was that their narrative mastery should permit them to rule the universe. Not that they're "underpowered" as in "weaker than other classes."

He explained his reasoning for his actions. It's perfectly consonant with the belief system he's had ever since he was introduced. And...*sighs*

I hate to say this. I really do. But...as far as "whatever is left of the Order will defeat this villain," he's right. He is, I hope, wrong that Elan will come back for him later, rather than someone (ideally not related to the Order) killing him before Xykon is destroyed. He's wrong about identifying Elan as the main character of the greater story; he's wrong in identifying himself as the main villain of the greater story. He is wrong to believe that he can force Elan to grow by killing Roy; he is wrong to believe that he can remove Roy from the story at all. But he's right that Xykon is not going to conquer the world. All these posts flipping out about him sabotaging the Order, such as this one about frontline fighters and weak bards, seem to hinge on a belief that Rich is going to roll dice to determine who comes out on top in the Order's final confrontation with Xykon. Tarquin is right, these posts are wrong.
You could almost say Tarquin is naive.

[Locnil]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.

Well, that's the Giant's word on it, then. Nothing more to talk about, since it's all been said.

[The Giant]

Also, I've merged two threads that are identical in topic—"Why is Tarquin sabotaging Elan's chances of beating Xykon?"—partly so that I don't have to cross-post my comment above to both, and partly so no one else has to repeat themselves in two places, either.

[Zerter]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.

Guess I have to adjust the way I thought about Tarquin.

[Yendor]

Tarquin is massively egocentric. And he never accepts the possibility of losing. Even his own eventual death is something he puts a positive spin on. So much better to go out a legendary villain defeated by the hero than to die of old age. And now that Elan's shown up, that hero has to be him. The important thing to Tarquin is that Elan is his son, and that reflects on him. It's the same with Nale. If Tarquin could turn him into a proper villain, he could establish a legacy that way. It's a big payoff for Tarquin, and one he went to a lot of trouble trying to achieve.

Oh yes, and going back to the Giant's post: Tarquin won't even consider that Elan could lose. He's going to have the final epic confrontation with the real villain: him.

[JBiddles]

Tarquin doesn't care about Xykon. As far as he's concerned, X is a villain-of-the-week with a vague plot to destroy the world who might be killed by one plucky hero as a sidequest, rather than requiring a team of adventurers. As far as T is concerned, he's helping Elan kill X by making Elan more developed and fit the mould of hero better.

Tarquin's actions are flawed by his twisted logic only because he doesn't know that Roy is the main character. T thinks that he has callously killed the mentor figures in a way to make Elan swear revenge... He doesn't realise that he's actually set a thousand Mooks on three heroes.

[BadAndyMk3]

He thinks he's the big bad villain that the Hero is destined to defeat. But he's wrong. He isn't the big villain of the story. Xykon is. Dealing with Tarkin is a side-quest or an obstacle the hero's need to get through before they get back to the true objective. From a narrative perspective, he's more like Jabba the Hutt than Darth Vader.

I really hope his death is uneventful and unexpected.

[SavageWombat]

Rich's comment also seems to confirm that Tarquin's portrayal in Haleo & Julelan - thinking that the plot was somehow about him and his archrival - was correctly interpreted by the forumites as reflective of the main comic.

[Carry2]

IBecause if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.
Yeah, except that all of this is priming Elan to go after Tarquin first, not after Xykon. Nothing he is doing here is giving Elan any particular reason to hate the Lich, but it is giving him every conceivable reason to ignore the main plotline and assault his dad directly, which does not benefit T at all.


Tarquin is massively egocentric. And he never accepts the possibility of losing.
That is an excellent way to wind up losing.

And given that Tarquin is supposed to be some kind of tactical genius, I'm seeing virtually no evidence for it here. (Or, for that matter, in pitting his two sons against eachother in a deathmatch scenario whose outcome he couldn't hope to reliably control, because we all saw how well that worked out.)

[The Giant]

Merged yet a third thread on the same topic into this one.

Can we try to keep all analysis of Tarquin's actions either here or in the main discussion thread? Thank you.

[Sunken Valley]

The one thing I don't get is that Tarquin should know Roy is the leader.

He calls Roy a good strategist. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

In the penultimate panel he says that "Greenhilt" is a challenge, seeming to refer to him as leader. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html)

He asks Roy to send Elan up. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html)

He says Elan has no combat skills, therefore he cannot "lead the charge". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html)

And finally, Nale would have told him.

Whilst it makes sense he'd kill Roy, it makes no sense he didn't know until now.

[Toper]

The one thing I don't get is that Tarquin should know Roy is the leader.
He does know Roy is the leader, for all the reasons you mention. This comic doesn't indicate otherwise -- Elan is forever telling people things they already know.

What Tarquin will not accept is that Roy is the hero, which is quite a different concept.

[martianmister]

"Leader" and "Hero" are two different things.

[Kornaki]

Tarquin's actions are flawed by his twisted logic only because he doesn't know that Roy is the main character. T thinks that he has callously killed the mentor figures in a way to make Elan swear revenge... He doesn't realise that he's actually set a thousand Mooks on three heroes.

It might be interesting to see if Tarquin's opinion changes when he fails to kill Roy - maybe a wakeup call that Roy isn't filling the narrative role Tarquin is expecting?


Yeah, except that all of this is priming Elan to go after Tarquin first, not after Xykon. Nothing he is doing here is giving Elan any particular reason to hate the Lich, but it is giving him every conceivable reason to ignore the main plotline and assault his dad directly, which does not benefit T at all.


When Vader killed Obi-Wan, Luke had every reason to go after Darth Vader. Look how many movies it took to finally getting around to kill him. Elan has time for a sidequest before coming back to deal with Tarquin if it's that important (from Tarquin's point of view)

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin is massively egocentric. And he never accepts the possibility of losing.

That's not QUITE true. Unless he's said more untrue things to Elan than we anticipated, he's quite at peace with the conventional concept of "losing". Of being defeated.

However, never accepting the possibility of losing within his defined parameters, yes: that would be true.



And given that Tarquin is supposed to be some kind of tactical genius, I'm seeing virtually no evidence for it here. (Or, for that matter, in pitting his two sons against eachother in a deathmatch scenario whose outcome he couldn't hope to reliably control, because we all saw how well that worked out.)

There are one or two holes, I think, in his general plans which I've addressed elsewhere, but I think many people are mixing up Tarquin's 'goals'.

First of all, it's been established for years -- since the comic "Plotting Something" at least -- that Tarquin doesn't have a conventional... let's say villain psychology. That is to say, constantly wanting more and More and MORE. Although he wants his empire, he's content to say at some point "that's enough" and not actively search for more. He has, generally, what he wants. Sure, he wants to absorb the rest of the Desert region, but it doesn't seem that he's very passionate about the idea.

He's also, if his own words can be believed, remarkably blase about his own eventual defeat and/or demise.

I think what is unique about the situation is this: most villains see themselves as the most important thing in the world.

Tarquin seems to think the STORY is the most important thing in the world. And he, or his sons (to whom he has at least equal importance), are the most important thing in that story.

I guess this can trip people up since the most common thing people expect from a villain that's not a misguided idealist type is to say "me first". Tarquin shares some of that misguided idealist trait in that he does sort of have this 'cause'. But instead of, say, a Ra'as Al Ghul "save nature by destroying humanity" or a Miko "destroy everything that's not white morality" ideal, Tarquin's ideal is sort of more self-centered, or at least centered in entertainment: tell the best story possible.

It's kind of scary how difficult it can be to reach a point where you disagree with that, because as readers, that's exactly what we want. Tarquin, as a character, has an ethos that caters DIRECTLY TO YOU. You want to see the hero succeed? So does he! You want to see the villain defeated? So does he! You want to see exciting thrills and drama and epic battles? So does he!

And the reason we hate him now? That's a microcosm of what makes Tarquin interesting in relation to the reader (in relation to, say, Roy or V, to whom Tarquin is simply nuts -- or so I would presume).

Sure, we don't like him because he's trying to kill one of the 'good guys'. Tarquin is probably totally accepting on this level and won't care one whit if, on this level, Roy was to escape. In this way he's just playing into his part in "the story".

But, more importantly, do we hate him because he's trying to remove the main protagonist? That, Tarquin might be more protective about. And what defined Roy as the main protagonist? Much of it depends on where the story started from, where WE started watching.

But Tarquin didn't start "watching" from this point. As someone stated, he doesn't know who Xykon is or if he does, doesn't know, as we do, all the narrative of that main thread. He doesn't know all of that buildup. As stated, as he sees it, this story is about him and/or his offspring.

So the presents an interesting notion: do we hate Tarquin now because he's doing something villainous, or do we hate him because he's trying to take over the story?

[eras10]

The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

How about a bunch of high-level characters capable of actually accomplishing the mission? I hope Tarquin has four of these in his dino pouch.

Okay, this is apparently where this is going. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I think Tarquin's mental transition isn't written or established as clearly as it ought to have been, and I think it demonstrates a poor grasp of human experience on Tarquin's part that is inconsistent with the savviness and strategic capabilities he needed to get to this point.

If he was prone to flights of delusional fancy about what The Dramatic Narrative would allow him to pull off, he'd have been killed stone dead a long time ago. The dramatic narrative didn't stop eighteen nations from combining to kick his butt Because Destiny, and it won't allow Elan to solo an undead epic sorceror lich. And it's both crazy and sloppy that Tarquin would think otherwise, and Tarquin has no history of acting crazy and sloppy.

Furthermore, Tarquin ought to know how far people can be pushed before they will cooperate with you. If Nale wasn't an object lesson in that, nothing is. I think this second part is what is getting me on an emotional level and putting the force into my protest, but the first part is probably the more serious inconsistent writing of Tarquin.

You can't kill everyone someone loves and expect them to cooperate with you. Because "screw you, that's why".

[Mike Havran]

If Tarquin doesn't give a drat about Elan's teammates at all, how come he went out his way to get his team back together a plotline ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)? What exactly did change since then? Elan would still be immensely powered by drama even then, with his friends dead. Did Tarquin care so much about Durkon's relationship with Malack?

Or perhaps, between those strips, did Tarquin himself change?

[Kish]

If Nale wasn't an object lesson in that, nothing is.
And you're suggesting Tarquin got "I, Tarquin, mishandled Nale" from that "object lesson"? In a way other than "I was too generous and should have killed him before"?

That line really undermines your argument. If Nale's death wasn't a demonstration that Tarquin really is that blind to other people's feelings...then I fail to see why what is happening now is.

[Kornaki]

If he was prone to flights of delusional fancy about what The Dramatic Narrative would allow him to pull off, he'd have been killed stone dead a long time ago. The dramatic narrative didn't stop eighteen nations from combining to kick his butt Because Destiny, and it won't allow Elan to solo an undead epic sorceror lich. And it's both crazy and sloppy that Tarquin would think otherwise, and Tarquin has no history of acting crazy and sloppy.

That's because he was a villain, and the dramatic narrative never saves villains from their own hubris. If anything he probably looked back at it and kicked himself for thinking he could just take the whole place over like that.


Furthermore, Tarquin ought to know how far people can be pushed before they will cooperate with you. If Nale wasn't an object lesson in that, nothing is. I think this second part is what is getting me on an emotional level and putting the force into my protest, but the first part is probably the more serious inconsistent writing of Tarquin.

You can't kill everyone someone loves and expect them to cooperate with you. Because "screw you, that's why".

He doesn't really want Elan to cooperate with him, he wants Elan to be a hero. Since Tarquin's a villain, cooperation is pretty much guaranteed to not exist already.


Furthermore on the topic of high level adventurers capable of completing the mission, if push comes to shove yes, Tarquin does have five of those in his pocket in case you haven't been paying attention :smalltongue:. But more likely he expects Elan to recruit new allies if needed. And he's probably right, Elan could go grab some Azure city guys and put together a decent team I would guess, not as powerful as the Order but again Tarquin expects Elan to win for plot reasons, so it doesn't matter how powerful they are. Elan's new team will just have to go through a character building montage or something

[Nilan8888]

How about a bunch of high-level characters capable of actually accomplishing the mission? I hope Tarquin has four of these in his dino pouch.

If Elan needed them, no doubt he'd try finding them.


Okay, this is apparently where this is going. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I think Tarquin's mental transition isn't written or established as clearly as it ought to have been, and I think it demonstrates a poor grasp of human experience on Tarquin's part that is inconsistent with the savviness and strategic capabilities he needed to get to this point.


Firstly, I think it's been laid out before, it's just that it hasn't directly conflicted with the protagonists before and this is the first time it REALLY has.

Does this reflect a poor grasp of human experience? Actually I think it reflects either a poor grasp on reality, or at least a different one. Is it inconsistent with his own capabilities? I don't think so.



If he was prone to flights of delusional fancy about what The Dramatic Narrative would allow him to pull off, he'd have been killed stone dead a long time ago. The dramatic narrative didn't stop eighteen nations from combining to kick his butt Because Destiny, and it won't allow Elan to solo an undead epic sorceror lich. And it's both crazy and sloppy that Tarquin would think otherwise, and Tarquin has no history of acting crazy and sloppy.

Firstly I think the area of the world Tarquin dominates -- a wasteland without much in the way of central government that he hasn't created himself -- might in itself cover up some of his shortcomings, if I were to agree they were shortcomings in this sense.

As for Tarquin not having a history of acting crazy or sloppy, how do we know this? We haven't seen exactly what happened, and we know he encountered defeat at the hands of those nations ganging up on him (which was twenty-six, not eighteen).

You seem to assume that reality will 'penalize' Tarquin for holding his sort of views. That only depends on Tarquin encountering circumstances for which his views would conflict with obtaining his goals or his own survival. I don't see how Tarquin thinking he's the main character in his own story stops him from plotting out his own empire.


Furthermore, Tarquin ought to know how far people can be pushed before they will cooperate with you. If Nale wasn't an object lesson in that, nothing is. I think this second part is what is getting me on an emotional level and putting the force into my protest, but the first part is probably the more serious inconsistent writing of Tarquin.

I think it's been pretty consistent that Tarquin understands empathy only in proportion to how far people stand in relation to himself. To the point that he only understands empathy for strangers as it might exist in theory. Sure, Nale's an object lesson: that Tarquin refuses to learn said object lesson. His own phrase of "you're starting to sound like Nale" is proof enough of that.


You can't kill everyone someone loves and expect them to cooperate with you. Because "screw you, that's why".

But Tarquin isn't really looking for Elan to cooperate. Elan is SUPPOSED to defeat him.

What Tarquin fails to understand is why Elan wouldn't see this as "just business" like he does: the business of creating a greater story. His confusion would stem from Elan's unwillingness to see that Roy was interfering with the narrative arc, and that it was past his time to go.

[Toper]

The dramatic narrative didn't stop eighteen nations from combining to kick his butt Because Destiny, and it won't allow Elan to solo an undead epic sorceror lich. And it's both crazy and sloppy that Tarquin would think otherwise, and Tarquin has no history of acting crazy and sloppy.
Remember when Roy soloed that undead epic sorcerer lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)? If Elan is the hero, he will find a way through, class and level notwithstanding. That's what heroes are in stories. It's how they work, it's what they do.

Tarquin doesn't seem to be wrong at all about how the world works, how it forms itself into stories. (He wrote the book on it! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)) He may be wrong about the particular story being told here and now, but it's certainly not crazy.

[Gift Jeraff]

If Tarquin doesn't give a drat about Elan's teammates at all, how come he went out his way to get his team back together a plotline ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)? What exactly did change since then? Elan would still be immensely powered by drama even then, with his friends dead. Did Tarquin care so much about Durkon's relationship with Malack?

Or perhaps, between those strips, did Tarquin himself change?

That was before he saw Elan's performance atop the pyramid and in the hall.

[BRC]

The issue is that Tarquin dosn't understand what story is being told. This is perfectly in-line with his characterization.

He thinks that this is the Tale of Elan the Brave, who will defeat his evil father against all odds! Tarquin didn't go after the Gates because he felt they were important, he did it for Nale's benefit. Tarquin knows nothing about the Gates except that they are a shiny mcguffin.

He is eloquent, but he is an egoist and a monster. He wants to be slain by his own son because that makes a better story.

Besides, killing Roy, Durkon and Belkar shouldn't impact the story. The more the odds are stacked against the hero, the greater the hero's eventual triumph. As Tarquin sees it, this is ELAN's story, so eliminating the supporting cast should just up the stakes. He'll leave the love-interest alive, but do somthing terrible to her family to make things even worse. If you told Tarquin that Xykon was an epic sorceror lich he would just say "PERFECT! I know where you can find a legendary sword that will help you defeat him!". As far as he is concerned Xykon will fail no matter what he does, because the REAL story is about him vs Elan.

As Tarquin sees it, the story has already been written, its just about upping the stakes.

[The_Weirdo]

Guess I have to adjust the way I thought about Tarquin.

Ditto. He's not insane, he's just working with wildly inaccurate premises.

[Nilan8888]

Ditto. He's not insane, he's just working with wildly inaccurate premises.


Which, on an unrelated note, works GREAT as a definition of insanity.

[The_Weirdo]

Which, on an unrelated note, works GREAT as a definition of insanity.

More or less. Perfectly "sane" people that work with inaccurate premises can be found in a lot of places.

[Person_Man]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.

So based on this, it's become clear to me that Tarquin is probably wrong genre savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy). His father thinks this is the Tarquin/Elan story. But it's not. It's a lot more then that.

The Tarquin/Elan relationship is very similar to many other dysfunctional father/son relationships. The father is doing what he thinks is right based on his personal life experiences and preconceived notions. But the son lives in a different world which has changed dramatically since the father was his age.

[Sir_Leorik]

If Tarquin doesn't give a drat about Elan's teammates at all, how come he went out his way to get his team back together a plotline ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)? What exactly did change since then?

Elan didn't take any actions to confront "Thog" other than using Bardic Music and stay out of Roy, Belkar and Durkon's way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), and he didn't have any part in Roy's carefully orchestrated ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html). Tarquin seems particularly annoyed by that latter part, maybe even taking it as a personal slight against himself. And we all know how Tarquin feels about personal slights, right? :smalleek:

[LadyEowyn]

Tarquin, let's remember, is the one who taught *Nale* that bards were underpowered (leading to a ridiculously complicated class setup that basically made him a bard wannabe). He also remembers fighting Elan one on one recently and knows that in spite of the aid of a Munchkiny prestige class that might as well have been (and was, looking at it from a meta standpoint) made for him, he is absolutely *not* a frontline fighter for his level (he matched up well against Nale, who was also not a frontline fighter). Whether it is from a logical, genre savvy, or straight out metagaming standpoint, Elan is most useful to the Order in most situations by doing *exactly* what he did in the fight against the disguised Tarquin--use bard songs, cast an occasional illusion if it might be helpful, and (perhaps) be prepared to add a blade if someone else arrives. Even if Elan had an 18 intelligence and twice Nale's planning ability with none of the megalomania, he would have no business taking the lead role in a fight as a bard/Dashing Swordsman.

So what does Tarquin do? :

1) Demands that Elan take the leadership role in the Order;

2) When Elan (sensibly) declines, Tarquin orders the summary execution of the Order's two frontline fighters and cleric, which--with the party already missing its wizard--leaves Elan and Haley alone to deal with what Tarquin *knows* to be a world-threatening crisis, and with Haley distracted with her father being under a "dead or live" bounty.

3) Assuming for the sake of argument that Tarquin somehow replaced the now missing or deceased Order members with superior (in terms of levels and perhaps class/specialization choices) substitutes, Elan is still not fit to lead them, and he knows it (as would the new party members). Great formula for success there, Tarquin.

Reasonable conclusion: Tarquin's gone nuts, either from the strain of having to kill Nale, the loss of one of his best friends, the shock of being rattled in his delusion that Elan is the leader of the OotS, or all of the above. One wonders if his longtime teammates will note this and start enacting any protocols that *they* have prepared in case of such an event occurring.

You're still assuming that Tarquin wants the Order to succeed.

He didn't assemble a massive army for the sake of some family drama. Contrary to his denials, he does want the Gate.

[Toper]

Which, on an unrelated note, works GREAT as a definition of insanity.
Though it seems to me that Tarquin's premises are only mildly inaccurate, not wildly. Mainly, he's misjudged the depth of the Gates quest and the role of the Order. If Roy's part in the story so far were smaller, and the Snarl thread less complex, and Elan less prone to being comic relief, I think Tarquin's plan would be rather good.

[Xelbiuj]

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.

So what I'm getting from this is that Tarquin is ****ing bat **** insane. lol

[Chantelune]

Yeah, except that all of this is priming Elan to go after Tarquin first, not after Xykon. Nothing he is doing here is giving Elan any particular reason to hate the Lich, but it is giving him every conceivable reason to ignore the main plotline and assault his dad directly, which does not benefit T at all.

In Tarquin's mind, Xykon is a side-quest and as he think throught narrative structure, it makes sense for him that having already defeated Elan, this one now know he's not a match yet and so have to go on a journey to get stronger, after swearing revenge on his father for killing his friends. As the Giant said, he believes that Elan can't lose against Xykon because he set him up for victory, but the journey will make him strong enough and then he'll come back for the final showdown, as it should be in a story if Tarquin was indeed the main villain.

So actually, he's giving Elan every reason to get serious about becoming stronger so he can beat him one day. I'm sure the possibility of Elan deciding to settle things now never crossed his mind. Which might actually be his downfall.

[Reddish Mage]

So based on this, it's become clear to me that Tarquin is probably wrong genre savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy). His father thinks this is the Tarquin/Elan story. But it's not. It's a lot more then that.

This may be the route the Giant is taking. However, we can't just say that Tarquin thinks he is in the wrong story.

Tarquin did know that 4-6 high level characters were probably a party. He may have indicated that he knows Elan and co are PCs (check). He knows Elan can't spare time for dear old dad because he has bigger fish to fry.

So no Tarquin doesn't think that this is just about him and Elan. Tarquin seems to be wrong on the very narrow grounds that he thinks Elan is a classic fictional hero, and is thus more powerful on his own than 4-6 high level adventurers forming a balanced party. This story isn't that sort of fantasy however, and Tarquin should know better.

In D&D even the Gods tremble at the combined might of 4-6 high level adventurers!

[BaronOfHell]

Tarquin is only "wrong genry-savvy" when it comes to dealing with family, or how would he have been able through his genre-saviness to achieve his goals?

It's a bit funny to think that Tarquin is where he is because of plot, i.e. the Giant wrote the character to be there, but from the RL perspective of Tarquin's existance, Tarquin must through life have noticed the convention of story did not only always seem to fit his evolution (the back story the Giant though up), but it fitted with him in a certain role. As such, Tarquin is very meta in the sense he's identified his world works exactly like a story where he has a specific role, and he's trying to work with that, but he does not identify the role completely exactly, he thinks he's the main villain, and why wouldn't he be? He could just as well have been, so I'm not surprised he got it wrong.


That was before he saw Elan's performance atop the pyramid and in the hall.

Funny enough that gave the order a bit of momentum, and if Roy had explained what Elan's role was in case of failure within the Pyramid (which I would say was likely if Tarquin hadn't spared Durkon), then Elan might have been more important than what it appeared from Tarquin's PoV.

[Mike Havran]

That was before he saw Elan's performance atop the pyramid and in the hall.


Elan didn't take any actions to confront "Thog" other than using Bardic Music and stay out of Roy, Belkar and Durkon's way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), and he didn't have any part in Roy's carefully orchestrated ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html). Tarquin seems particularly annoyed by that latter part, maybe even taking it as a personal slight against himself. And we all know how Tarquin feels about personal slights, right? :smalleek:Well, I get that he was angered by Elan's performance there, but that doesn't actually influence the fact Tarquin killing Elan's sidekicks would have ramped up both Elan's anger and dramatic chance of his success even before the discovery, brave hero or not. If he was front-and-center hero, he would have sworn revenge over their cold bodies, gone to stomp Xykon and returned to get vengeance. If he was not, he would have sworn revenge over their cold bodies, gone to stomp Xykon and returned to get vengeance.

[The Oni]

After finally having to acknowledge that one of his sons (who of course he sees as an extension of himself) is a monster, he's completely snapped. He's just so restrained we're not seeing the unhinged cackling yet.

[The Oni]

Yeah, I think he's lost it or is about to. If it weren't for his years of calculated composure and impossibly high Charisma, he'd be cackling like the last season's Light Yagami right about now.

[Mike Havran]

Yes, that's my thoughts as well. He went the Miko road, we just don't see the foam at his mouth yet.

[Toper]

From the other thread:

Can we try to keep all analysis of Tarquin's actions either here or in the main discussion thread? Thank you.

[Roland Itiative]

I do think his extreme course of action seems a bit out of character for him, so Nale's death might have had an influence on his person... I'm not sure he's "lost it" yet, though, he just changed his approach to the whole parenting situation, based on his failure.

What's ironic about this is that he's doing now the sort of thing Nale wanted him to do (use his position and power to seize control in a more direct, quick and overwhelming way), and his old behaviour would be much better at manipulating Elan than the current one. So, by doing something that would have helped control his first son, he's losing grasp on the other one.

[tomandtish]

To use an analogy that's been used many times before in the Empire of Blood.

As far as Tarquin sees himself, he's Vader, Xykon and Redcloak are Jabba/Boba Fett. it's now time for Luke (I mean Elan) to go level up some more, take care of Jabba and gang, then come back and defeat the Empire.

Tarquin doesn't realize that in terms of importance Xykon and Redcloak are more like the Borg Collective and he's Grand Nagus Zek.

[Gift Jeraff]

Where was the last place he saw it?

[Connington]

I think we've got the Thog problem all over again. As long as the likable bad guy isn't directing his evilness, insanity, and general dickishness at the protagonists, the audience gets caught in his charm.

Tarquin was gentle with Elan before because he didn't see any reason not to be. Now he's showing the same problem-solving technique he uses with reluctant future-wives and the empire in general. He hasn't changed at all, but the audience's perspective has.

[Henry the 57th]

After finally having to acknowledge that one of his sons (who of course he sees as an extension of himself) is a monster, he's completely snapped. He's just so restrained we're not seeing the unhinged cackling yet.

Minor quibble: It's not that Nale was a monster that bothered Tarquin - he raised him that way, after all. It's that he was a disobedient monster. Tarquin could have overlooked everything he did, included killing Malack, if only Nale had bowed at his feet and submitted to his plans. Since he didn't, Tarquin terminated him.

But otherwise, I agree. He's lost it.

[johnbragg]

Elan didn't take any actions to confront "Thog" other than using Bardic Music and stay out of Roy, Belkar and Durkon's way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), and he didn't have any part in Roy's carefully orchestrated ambush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html). Tarquin seems particularly annoyed by that latter part, maybe even taking it as a personal slight against himself. And we all know how Tarquin feels about personal slights, right? :smalleek:

Right. Elan is not the leader of the party, the focus of the drama. Roy and his father's blood oath are. Roy is the center of the party, the heavy-damage fighter AND the combat tactician AND the guy who makes sure Belkar doesn't kill too many random innocents, makes sure Belkar and V don't kill each other, etc.

Killing Roy (and incidentally Belkar) makes Elan the center of gravity of the new party. Haley is the Love Interest (I don't think Tarquin is evolved enough to consider that Elan might be the Love Interest), Vampire Durkon and V aren't suited to the role. So it will be the high-charisma bard and estranged son of the villain who takes charge of the leaderless party and deals with the challenge of getting new recruits to continue the quest(s) and get final vengeance on Tarquin.

[The Oni]

Well, I should clarify. Tarquin knows he's evil, that's no question, but at least in his mind he's Classy Evil. Evil with honor, wit, style and standards; and it's this quality that will cement his place in history as a memorable tyrant of legend.

In Nale, he saw his own face, the extension of himself, being horrible and petty and destructive for the sake of being horrible and petty and destructive - and utterly unrepentant. Nale being a monster DOES bother him because he's not a suave, commanding villain that will terrify and inspire future generations, but rather a rampaging beast with no clear goal beyond his immediate gratification. And Tarquin can't deal with that.

[Saph]

I think we've got the Thog problem all over again. As long as the likable bad guy isn't directing his evilness, insanity, and general dickishness at the protagonists, the audience gets caught in his charm.

Mmm, I don't think it's just that. Before, Tarquin seemed intelligent and evil. Now he's coming across as foolish and evil.

[LuPuWei]

That's not QUITE true. ...

...So the presents an interesting notion: do we hate Tarquin now because he's doing something villainous, or do we hate him because he's trying to take over the story?

That was a nice read. Just saying...

[Deliverance]

Mmm, I don't think it's just that. Before, Tarquin seemed intelligent and evil. Now he's coming across as foolish and evil.
I disagree.

For him to seem foolish now and intelligent before, one must view his actions through the prism of a D&D campaign or, for that matter, a real world equivalent.

But why would one do that either before or now?

Tarquin's character has been clear since he was introduced in the Fatherland: He is dedicated to the narrative world-view. He knows in his heart that the universe runs on stories; The world is a stage and he has worked hard and diligently to make the story of the amazing Tarquin the central story, one in which every outcome of every action of his can be considered (at least in a good light and with proper use of PR) to advance his agenda, thus making the Tarquiniad an even greater story than it already is.

And he is, of course, right.

The world he is in does run on narrative, not on hard statistics and cold calculations, because it is not a soulless D&D campaign world like the ever-be-damned "stat-it-all-and-let-the-rules-sort-out-the-rest" trap that third edition led too many PnP D&D campaigns end up in. He may be wrong on the specifics of exactly who is the central character and which story is central, and this may have terrible ramifications for him, but his understanding of the world is not, and seen in the light of that and his beliefs as to the centrality of his story, his actions are entirely sensible, not foolish. Just like Xykon, Elan, and even arguably the MitD (as seen in his "lone Paladin" bluff), Tarquin understands the power of narrative.

To consider his actions intelligent before and foolish now requires one to understand the OOTS world as working in a way it never has.

He is either foolish both before and now due to getting wrong, who the story is about, or he is neither foolish before nor now.

[The Pilgrim]

Somewhat I have difficult in seeing a "classy evil with honor" in a man that uses to torture women.

[Rakoa]

Somewhat I have difficult in seeing a "classy evil with honor" in a man that uses to torture women.

Let's not be sexist here: torturing anyone, regardless of gender, is bad. :smalltongue:

[Warden Zhir]

From the latest comic, I have deduced that Tarquin is UTTERLY INSANE. He wants to kill Roy because he's stopping his son from being a big time hero? That's a ridiculous reason.

I think Tarquin is living in a dream world where he hopes his son is a big time protagonist, and he's a dictator infamous for his brutality and tyranny, but his son topples his empire through rallying the people, starting a rebellion and defeating his father in a one-on-one duel.

So when he found out that: A, he couldn't build an empire because its easy to lose one; and B, Elan wasn't a big shot hero, he probably got pissed.

He's not killing Roy because of some tactical reason, like "Kill their leaders, strip them of organization and they'll simply be a disorganized mass of individuals" He's killing him because he's taking the glory from his son.

[Niknokitueu]

Somewhat I have difficult in seeing a "classy evil with honor" in a man that uses to torture women.
I personally have difficulty seeing 'classy evil with honour' in Tarquin after the events of #916 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0916.html). Trying to kill Roy and the others? Just kills off the OotS party, which loses the world, prevents Elan from gaining enough levels to 'epic'ally kill him, and generally just dumps all over everything.

Gone from 'affably evil' to 'stupid evil'.

So yeah, Nale's death has hit him harder than he is willing to admit.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Lord Raziere]

Mmm, I don't think it's just that. Before, Tarquin seemed intelligent and evil. Now he's coming across as foolish and evil.

He has always been foolish and evil. he is smart about his foolishness, but here is the thing: there is no such thing as a necessary evil. evil itself is completely unnecessary. technically his first evil empire had already been overthrown by a last-minute alliance of smaller nations, a classic evil empire defeated trope. he could've died years ago that way if that was what he truly wanted, to whatever hero organized that alliance.

instead no he HAD to have his son Elan be the one to kill him- and so he got back up and remade the continent into three empires of oppression, slavery, death, manipulated thousands or even millions of people to go to pointless wars and basically remade the entire continent just so things would go the way he wanted things to go- His way, his narrative, his rules. No one else's.

I'm not questioning Tarquin's sanity.

I'm denying its existence.

[The Extinguisher]

This has nothing to do with Nale's death other than both Elan and Nale not wanting to be pawns in Tarquin's story.

It's certainly not unhinging Tarquin in any way. Assuming he was ever hinged in the first place.

[The Pilgrim]

Let's not be sexist here: torturing anyone, regardless of gender, is bad. :smalltongue:

But classic conventions are sexist.

[veti]

Here's what's getting to me: Tarquin, who's been repeatedly characterized as a efficient and ruthless scheming mastermind, has established that he's depending on Elan to prevent the scenery-chewing villian from taking over the world, and is doing everything in his power to make Elan fail.

You're forgetting Tarquin's obsession with narratives. Elan is the hero, therefore Elan can't fail. It's literally impossible. The bigger obstacles Tarquin puts in front of him, it just makes the story more exciting.

Tarquin isn't "doint everything in his power to make Elan fail", because he knows that's not in his power. He's doing everything in his power to make Elan's success the more dramatic and memorable.

[Gift Jeraff]

In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing.

I wonder how Laurin and Miron would feel about this.

[The Oni]

Laurin and Miron don't know. Remember, Tarquin still has friends (or pretends to), and does in most cases try to look out for them - the same as most sociopaths, really. It's just that if it came down to his friends or his grand master plan, he'd have no problem throwing them under the bus.

[Yendor]

I wonder how Laurin and Miron would feel about this.

Much the same way Malack would feel if he knew how Tarquin dealt with his death.

[The Oni]

I said Tarquin sees himself that way, not that it's necessarily true. He's in love with a legend of himself.

Like Light Yagami, he tries to justify his actions with notions of "bringing stability" and "transcending good and evil." But he's really Evil evil, as surely as Xykon is. The whole thing is an excuse so he can enjoy his powertrip. And now that he's been forced to acknowledge that, by Nale, it's a real short skip and a hop down to the moral event horizon.

[The Pilgrim]

Much the same way Malack would feel if he knew how Tarquin dealt with his death.

In addition to how he would feel if he knew why Tarquin sent him out on the desert.

[martianmister]

He's evil version of Elan.

[Domino Quartz]

You know, there is already a thread to discuss this kind of stuff.

[Souhiro]

More than insane, he's now just plain stupid.

Altough he lives in a reality where the "Physical laws" are the ones from D&D 3.5 and tropes are the most acurrate philosophy in the world, some logic still is there.

Like the logic that a party consisting only of a Bard and a Roge (Which incidentally are both lovers) it's a terrible party, in number, in power, versatility... Even more if they have to fight world-threating menaces, like Xykon, the Rift, an army of hobbos and gobbos...

Maybe someone should give Tarkin the Brutal Hero game: Elan is the hero... but he's also a Roadie!

[Porthos]

I gave a long post over on the Main Thread about this already, so I'll summarize here.

Tarquin's actions in #916 makes perfect sense if Tarquin believes one of two things:

A) Xykon isn't an immediate threat right this second.

B) If Xykon turns into a threat/I decide he is one, I can crush him effortlessly later.

Combine that with wanting his son to be the best that he can be (from his perspective) and everything makes sense. To quote my final thoughts over there:


Does he 'love' his son? Again, beats me. Maybe he loves him as much as a person like Tarquin is capable of love. Or maybe he really does love him. But it is that love, twisted that it is, that wants him to be the Best Elan That Can Be. But, again, from Tarquin's viewpoint. And here, Roy is an unacceptable brake on Elan's potential.

If Elan is going to reach his potential, then Roy is in a Gots To Go situation. That it temporarily sets back Elan is regrettable, but, hey, he's resourceful. He'll figure out something. He's my kid after all.

All of these thoughts are very human thoughts. Twisted and warped out of what is considered normal? Sure. But still human.

This is one way to look at what Tarquin is doing. And all it requires is for him to not think very highly of Xykon and to think that his son is capable of so much more.

What a... human (as in fallible) thing to do. :smallsmile:

===

Maybe Tarquin brought this huge ass army along to kick Xykon in the head. But now that Xykon is no longer on his borders, it's Somebody Else's Problem.

And if Xykon really is a threat no one else can deal with? Well, Tarquin will just go and deal with it himself then.

But as is, if he truly thinks that this Xykon fella is someone he can afford to muck about with, well, why not get rid of Roy? It's not harming Tarquin in the long run and it's helping Elan Grow Up.

All this requires, as I said, is for Tarquin to have made an error in judgement when it comes to the power level and danger of Xykon.

That we the readers realize that Xykon really is that Big and Bad simply means we have more first hand experience with the big X. :smallwink:

[Dodom]

I personally see no contradiction with Tarquin's usual and current behaviour. Tarquin can be a master manipulator and still have an inferior understanding of people.
Tarquin knows what buttons to push to get people to act in certain ways, most of the time. To command, that's enough, because he has enough power to make up for the times people don't fall for it. But he's uninsterested in the thoughts and feelings that power these buttons, so he can't predict when they'll stop working.
The difference between "then" Tarquin and "now" Tarquin is one of point of view. Before, we saw him from a distance. Now we got him in close-up, we see how he deals with people in the fine details.

[Quorothorn]

If he was prone to flights of delusional fancy about what The Dramatic Narrative would allow him to pull off, he'd have been killed stone dead a long time ago. The dramatic narrative didn't stop eighteen nations from combining to kick his butt Because Destiny, and it won't allow Elan to solo an undead epic sorceror lich. And it's both crazy and sloppy that Tarquin would think otherwise, and Tarquin has no history of acting crazy and sloppy.

Tarquin does not know that the villain out to seize the Gates is an epic-level lich. Pretty key gap in his knowledge, apparently.

Also, so, you mean to say that going out to conquer a nation on the Western Continent without figuring out how long that was likely to last was NOT somewhat 'sloppy', perhaps even 'crazy'? Tarquin has never been as close to infallible as some on the forums think he is.


If Tarquin doesn't give a drat about Elan's teammates at all, how come he went out his way to get his team back together a plotline ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)? What exactly did change since then? Elan would still be immensely powered by drama even then, with his friends dead. Did Tarquin care so much about Durkon's relationship with Malack?

Or perhaps, between those strips, did Tarquin himself change?

Yes: since then, he has determined that Elan views Roy as The Hero, and that just cannot stand in Tarquin's self-obsessed worldview.

[stavro375]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.
So Tarquin's betting that the narrative trumps basic logic/DnD mechanics? Fair enough, although I still think he's putting too much stock into that sort of thing -- there comes a point when narrative convention has to bow to a story's internal logic. incidentally, after I was reminded that Tarquin doesn't know who the villain-of-the-week is this exchange popped into my head:

Tarquin: So son, I never asked -- who's this villain you're fighting?
:elan: An epic lich sorceror with a high-level cleric sidekick-
Tarquin: A fair challenge.
:elan: a Monster-in-the-Darkness trump card of unknown power-
Tarquin: Naturally.
:elan: and possibly a 3,000 strong Hobogoblin army.
Tarquin: Now you're just making stuff up. Well, I'm sure you can defeat them with a few month's character development...
:elan: He just teleported to the gate like 15 minutes ago.
Tarquin: ...A change of plans is in order.

[Mr. Pants]

Better put him in a strait jacket.

[Mr. Pants]

He probably never had it to begin with...

[Edric O]

Note: Even though Tarquin knows that Elan is fighting a "scenery-chewing villain", he does not know that said villain is only days or weeks away from taking over the world. As far as Tarquin knows, Elan could take years to gain more XP and maybe even switch classes, before finally saving the world (and then, of course, coming back for the final epic confrontation with his father).

So, given that Elan's quest is not urgent (in Tarquin's mind), killing his party is only a temporary setback, not a crippling blow that will doom the universe.

[Sungrass]

Sigh... Tarquin has finally picked up the villain ball.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainBall

Direct quote from that page:
"Even if their success is seemingly assured, they can't seem to help but do something, anything, that serves no purpose other than giving The Hero the extra motivation and opportunity to wreck everything, and he will."

He murdered Nale in front of Elan. In doing so, he has pretty much guaranteed that Elan will defeat him.

Sending his mooks down to attack Roy is futile. Roy's plot armour has become so thick that even Tarquin himself won't be able to put a dent in it. At best, the horde of mooks will serve only to keep the rest of the party at bay while Elan fights Tarquin.

I believe we are now watching Tarquin's demise, I can't help but feel really really sad about that. I had hoped that Tarquin would be the one villain smart enough to not directly cause his own defeat via a teeth-grindingly reckless or stupid move.

For the record, I have no problem with him killing Nale. I just wish he had shown a more characteristic level of discretion in doing so...

EDIT: To clarify my last point, Tarquin built his career on staying out of the limelight and not being publicly known to be the villain. He has intentionally avoided heroic attention by always making it look like someone else was the villain. That he is not properly applying his own rules of business to his own children (even when killing them) is pretty much what has ruined his chances of surviving this plot arc.

[Porthos]

Sigh... Tarquin has finally picked up the villain ball.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainBall

Direct quote from that page:
"Even if their success is seemingly assured, they can't seem to help but do something, anything, that serves no purpose other than giving The Hero the extra motivation and opportunity to wreck everything, and he will."

He murdered Nale in front of Elan. In doing so, he has pretty much guaranteed that Elan will defeat him.

Except a major part of his motivation IS to make it so Elan defeat him.

He's been saying this forever. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) Why wouldn't he pick up a 'villain ball'?

In fact, if it is indeed what he wants, can it truly be a 'villain ball'? Sounds more like a Thanatos Gambit to me. :smallwink:

[Lord Raziere]

well here is the thing about villains:

the entire point of villains is that they eventually make a fatal mistake because of their villainy. no matter how effective, no matter how powerful, or experienced or anything. they're villains. their philosophies are always flawed at some point, its human nature. and Tarquin made the mistake of trying to kill Elan's friends out of his own version of genre-saviness to advance the story. villains often fall because of their own strengths or whatever being applied too far. its the whole faux karma/irony thing: the very thing that villains live by, is often the thing they die by.

[tomaO2]

Okay, I get what Tarquin is trying to do for Elan but shouldn't he try and spare Durkon? He's the only child of his best friend, Malek, after all.

Given the importance Tarquin places on his family and friends the son of his best friend should be given the chance to survive.

I'm not convinced the entire party needs to die either. Seems wasteful. Kill Roy? Fine. Kill the rest? I don't see the reason.

[mp122984]

Okay, I get what Tarquin is trying to do for Elan but shouldn't he try and spare Durkon? He's the only child of his best friend, Malek, after all.

Given the importance Tarquin places on his family and friends the son of his best friend should be given the chance to survive.

I'm not convinced the entire party needs to die either. Seems wasteful. Kill Roy? Fine. Kill the rest? I don't see the reason.


Tarquin's never been one to worry about things like Malack's children (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) or collateral damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), which ties into how little he cares for lives which aren't directly part of the story running through his head.

There's something I've been wondering about myself: Would Tarquin seem any less crazy if his son was someone actually capable of making the long walk through the desert and building a replacement Order of the Stick in order to defeat Xykon and himself?

[SaintRidley]

tomaO2 - looks like you fell for Tarquin's ruse. Hint: he doesn't actually care about his "friends" - they're just useful to him in arranging for the perfect story.


I wonder how Laurin and Miron would feel about this.

I don't get the feeling Tarquin cares about that one bit. Even if he did, it would only be in terms of how their feelings could make his story better.

[Jokunen]

I would suggest that, if Tarquin's writer characterizes him in a way that doesn't match the picture in your head, you should try to adjust the picture in your head. Not declare it "a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization."

By this logic you shouldn't critique any literary work. :p

Given what we know currently, Tarquin's actions make no sense whatsoever. Unless he has gone mad or there's some reason for his actions, it just doesn't fit his character at all.

[SaintRidley]

By this logic you shouldn't critique any literary work. :p

Given what we know currently, Tarquin's actions make no sense whatsoever. Unless he has gone mad or there's some reason for his actions, it just doesn't fit his character at all.

Except the whole part where he thinks that everything we've seen the main plot to be is an unnecessary distraction from the cool tale of Elan opposing Tarquin, you mean? Because everything Tarquin has done has been in furtherance of making the story look like what he thinks it should be. What he's doing now? He's trying to force the plot onto his rails by any means necessary now.

[Nephrahim]

Remember when Roy soloed that undead epic sorcerer lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)? If Elan is the hero, he will find a way through, class and level notwithstanding. That's what heroes are in stories. It's how they work, it's what they do.

Tarquin doesn't seem to be wrong at all about how the world works, how it forms itself into stories. (He wrote the book on it! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)) He may be wrong about the particular story being told here and now, but it's certainly not crazy.

This post explains things perfectly (Others have as well but theirs were generally longer.)

People are saying Tarquin is crazy to try and kill roy because he's a high level Character and important for killing Xkyon... but he's right. Xykon is not going to lose because Roy rolled 2d6 for damage, he's going to lose because it's the story. Now, Taruqin's mistake is that he thinks HE is the main villain, not Xykon, and that is a result of his immense ego. He also thinks Elan is the main hero, because he's perfectly suited for taking down himself. That's why he thinks Roy and the others are not important, and he's wrong, but it's not because he's so insane for thinking the world runs on tropes, it's for getting the tropes wrong.

He is, as someone said, become wrong genre savvy.

[Porthos]

By this logic you shouldn't critique any literary work. :p

Given what we know currently, Tarquin's actions make no sense whatsoever.

To add what SaintRidley said, all you have to buy is that Tarquin doesn't feel particularly worried about the threat of Xykon at this time.

===

Mind, he could have thought Xykon was a potential threat an hour ago. Having crazy lich dude on your doorstep might just be a good enough reason to smash the In Case of Emergency Break Glass switch rouse up the army and kick him in the head should he show up at Girard's Pyramid.

Oh? He's on another continent now? Cackling away and chewing scenery?

Huh.

Oh well. Obviously not a real problem then. I'll deal with it later if I need to.

*pause*

Though, since I have my army here, it'd be a shame not to use it....

[The Giant]

I've merged yet another two threads discussing whether Tarquin has "lost it" into this one.

Please do not create any more threads on this topic.

[Leolo]

Except the whole part where he thinks that everything we've seen the main plot to be is an unnecessary distraction from the cool tale of Elan opposing Tarquin, you mean? Because everything Tarquin has done has been in furtherance of making the story look like what he thinks it should be. What he's doing now? He's trying to force the plot onto his rails by any means necessary now.

Although that doesn't mean that we will get slower to the original target. Tarquin still wants Elan to finish Xykon - he just want that Elan evolves in this process. Becomes a hero.

And frankly it is needed. If Elan (and the Order, i doubt they all be dead) wants to secure the gate and beat Xykon once and for all they have to do their best. "Don't stand in the way of anyone" is not the best Elan can do. He can be more heroic, more usefull.

[Sungrass]

Except a major part of his motivation IS to make it so Elan defeat him.

He's been saying this forever. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) Why wouldn't he pick up a 'villain ball'?

In fact, if it is indeed what he wants, can it truly be a 'villain ball'? Sounds more like a Thanatos Gambit to me. :smallwink:
You know... That comic you linked...

Yeah, okay... You have a fair point. What's more, he pretty blatantly outlined that his win conditions included becoming legend via defeat at Elan's hands.

So pretty much the only way for Tarquin to be truly defeated would be to ensure that he fails in such a way that does not cause him to become legend. ie. Either he fades into obscurity and the plot moves on without him, or he does something to turn the readers against him before his demise.

I get the whole "live by the tropes, die by the tropes" thing, but still... A large part of me had hoped that Tarquin would get his legendary defeat. Either by dying to Xykon as part of some redemption arc, or by having something a little more world-shaking than just the Order's lives at stake.

I mean... They're in the middle of a desert, at a landmark that no longer holds any strategic value, with no innocent lives in immediate danger. This is about as anti-climatic as it gets.

[Leolo]

I think the best way to defeat Tarquin is to not make special preparations against his plan.

So simple duell him. On a rooftop. With a dragon in the rain if it has to be done.

He will always have someone who remembers him, and even if not he will always had have his time as a Ruler. Nothing that happens will take this away from him.

But the point is: It doesn't matter if this is what Tarquin wants, and if he would consider it a win. All that matters is if the people he had enslaved are free now. If you start to play Tarquins game and think about reputation, legends and so on you can only loose.

It is like the situation when Roy realized he is not trying to stop Xykon for his daddy but because he wants to do the right thing. The same is true for Elan. It doesn't matter if Tarquin is glad when Elan finally beats him. Just that he beats him.

[Burner28]

Sigh... Tarquin has finally picked up the villain ball.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainBall



That is an incorrect usage of the trope, due to the fact this is not out-of-character for Tarquin. Tarquin has always thought he was the main villain and knows this story follows the laws of story convention, and thus, killing off Roy would be like Vader killing off Obi Wan. From a story convention point of view, he is not hindering, but helping, Elan. The problem is that he is not the main villain and so he is wrong.

The correct trope would be Fatal Flaw.

[Kish]

By this logic you shouldn't critique any literary work. :p

I'm not saying you should never look at any character and say, "What that character is doing is inconsistent with the way that character was written earlier."

I am saying that the current tide of objections to Tarquin seem entirely to be based on the Tarquin in the comic being inconsistent with the Tarquin these posters made up.

Similarly, if you protest that plain oatmeal is too spicy, and I say, "There's something off in your taste buds," that doesn't mean I'm saying "too spicy" is an inherently invalid criticism in every situation; it means that it's not valid in that situation.

[gerryq]

Lost it?

Tarquin is a sociopath who forces women to marry him through torture, burns a bunch of slaves to spell out letters of his sons name, kills his other own son without any remorse, views everyone around him as plot devices, and concocts cruel schemes to pettily get payback upon people who got the better of him that he integrates into his wider plan of oppression, propaganda and lies and thinks that His and Elan's story is more important than everyone else's. He literally has written a note down to someday punch a bunny.

Since when did he ever have it?

He has controlled an empire for years, and behaved as if the plans and loyalty of people he needs matter to him (even if he doesn't really think so).

He's now apparently having something close to a psychotic break, in the presence of his allies (and enemies).

That's what's known as 'losing it'.

[gerryq]

I would suggest that, if Tarquin's writer characterizes him in a way that doesn't match the picture in your head, you should try to adjust the picture in your head. Not declare it "a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization."

Then why should we care about the way the writer has characterised him up to now? If tomorrow Elan starts life as Belkar's husband on a desert island somewhere, will you just adjust the picture in your head?

[gerryq]

I suggest that if this comic is making you upset in any way, then you should probably just stop reading it.

Nah, I still like it. Maybe Rich will successfully justify Tarquin's apparent change in character, or maybe I'll just enjoy the other characters. I think I'll just stay and voice my praise or criticism as it occurs.

[gerryq]

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.


See, that's my problem. I think Tarquin ought to be able to see that Elan needs his group. Sidekicks, secondary characters, perhaps - but he needs the Order. And he's a bard - I'm not well up on my D&D, but classically a bard needs a party more than most.

Tarquin not being able to see that clashes with my expectations. Tarquin not being able to see it and acting in such an apparently crude and self-destructive way clashes with them more.

Elan could still be the main character - indeed, ISTR it being debated hundreds of strips ago whether Roy or Elan was the main protagonist.

Okay, if that's where it's going, that's where it's going. But I don't think it will ever be in my list of your top ten auctorial decisions!

[Kish]

Then why should we care about the way the writer has characterised him up to now? If tomorrow Elan starts life as Belkar's husband on a desert island somewhere, will you just adjust the picture in your head?
That depends entirely on how Rich writes the transition. But--unlike with Tarquin--that would contradict a number of established facts about Elan: "With Haley," "Probably prefers women," "Doesn't like Belkar," "Is involved in a larger plot already." A better parallel would be, "If Elan suddenly does something stupid that I wish he hadn't done." And, in fact, the board semiregularly has people post, "Why is Elan acting stupid again? I thought he'd gotten smart! Sigh, way to backtrack on your previous character development, Giant!"

It doesn't appear to me that you do care about how the writer has characterized Tarquin up to now, any more than someone who claimed to like Elan best but constantly complained about his not suddenly becoming hypercompetent and solving every problem would actually care about Elan; rather, you're complaining that the writer's characterization just got harder to shove aside and impose your own in place of.

[gerryq]

More or less. Perfectly "sane" people that work with inaccurate premises can be found in a lot of places.

But when the premises have concrete consequences, sane people check their validity.

If you think aliens control the government and you accept it as just the way things are, you are not particularly insane. If you think your neighbour is an alien and try to prove it, expect the men with white coats and butterfly nets to come calling.

[stavro375]

Remember when Roy soloed that undead epic sorcerer lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)? If Elan is the hero, he will find a way through, class and level notwithstanding. That's what heroes are in stories. It's how they work, it's what they do.

Tarquin doesn't seem to be wrong at all about how the world works, how it forms itself into stories. (He wrote the book on it! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)) He may be wrong about the particular story being told here and now, but it's certainly not crazy.
The problem, IMO, is that at a point narrative convention has to bow to internal logic. For instance, in his first clash with Roy, Xykon was explicitly trying to lure the heroes into touching Dorukan's gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), not kill them outright -- the only spell Xykon actually cast *at Roy* during their duel was to break Roy's disjunction-buffed sword. I'm under the impression that Elan won't get nearly as lucky.




[QUADRUPLE POST!!! Very nearly quintuple, as well]
Dude, use the multi-quote function. Look, I did it here.

EDIT:
Look, we also have an edit function for when you want to *change* your posts. ooohhh.

[nocker]

To everybody saying Tarquin "lost it", in a very real sense, yes, he just did "lose" something.

Malack was his friend, and being the cleric, there's little doubt the vampire was a source of wisdom and common sense in their group. I was re-reading the comic yesterday, and the tirade between Malack and V on first panel of #724 shows that: "Is yours always like that?". Tarquin, for all his Evil Overlord designs, seemed to fill the same dramatic niche than Elan in his group (even if his party niche was of the front-line fighter): Father and son are the "silly ones" in their groups, thinking outside the objective box and providing narrative insights.

When Tarquin proposed his world-conquest plan to his party, I think he was trusting that it would work based on tropes weight alone. Malack and the others then considered the plan against objective difficulty factors and saw that yeah, they actually had the firepower to pull that. And now a sobering influence on Tarquin's worldview has just gone. That has surely put his party out of balance, and it seems he was the hardest hit.

[Toper]

The problem, IMO, is that at a point narrative convention has to bow to internal logic. For instance, in his first clash with Roy, Xykon was explicitly trying to lure the heroes into touching Dorukan's gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), not kill them outright -- the only spell Xykon actually cast *at Roy* during their duel was to break Roy's disjunction-buffed sword. I'm under the impression that Elan won't get nearly as lucky.
From a reader's perspective, that is absolutely true. However, Tarquin assumes Elan's circumstances now are much like Roy's circumstances then: a mid-level hero in the first act of the play who hasn't used up his luck, and who could go from small-scale adventures to an awesome, epic story with a little push from his dad.

[Leolo]

I don't think that Tarquins point is "you can do it alone now".

It is more a "if you evolve to the hero you could be, if you use your hidden potential you can do it".

Including first sending haley on a sidequest that elan might also join to gain some more XP. So Tarquin does notice Elan still needs some time to grow up. And to become a true hero that has an important role. In fact tarquin is right in this - a group where Elan just stays out of the way of the other characters won't win against Xykon.

[littlebum2002]

I wonder if this thread could break a record for "most threads merged together into one". I think we're up to 6 so far.

[Dalek Kommander]

See, that's my problem. I think Tarquin ought to be able to see that Elan needs his group.

Notice that this statement is entirely about what you WANT, and has absolutely nothing to do with how Tarquin has actually been characterized up until now. When has Tarquin previously demonstrated he's the character you want him to be? Go back and re-read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html


It's YOU Elan. If anyone will ever defeat me, it will be you.

Note that he didn't say if anyone will ever defeat him, it will be Elan's team. The only thing about Elan's team that Tarquin cared about then was the fact that it has Elan in it. The only reason he cares about Elan's team now is that it's "hindering Elan from becoming the True Hero of the story". That is why he has decided to wipe most of them out; he probably think's he's being magnanimous by allowing Elan to keep his love interest.

[halfeye]

I think that Tarquin is lying when he says he expects Elan to come back and kill him. I think he wants a fight to the death which he stands some sort of chance of losing, now. All his apparently random recent actions have been pushing towards that goal, including sending all of his forces into the crater, leaving him alone with Elan, Hayley, Kilkil, and a couple of his team if they don't also head down.

[Toper]

I think that Tarquin is lying when he says he expects Elan to come back and kill him. I think he wants a fight to the death which he stands some sort of chance of losing, now.
For what it's worth, a fight where Elan deals him a setback would be perfectly consistent with Tarquin's view that Elan is still in the first part of his heroic tale; like Luke destroying the first Death Star, or Roy's victory in Dorukan's Dungeon.

[halfeye]

For what it's worth, a fight where Elan deals him a setback would be perfectly consistent with Tarquin's view that Elan is still in the first part of his heroic tale; like Luke destroying the first Death Star, or Roy's victory in Dorukan's Dungeon.
So, not to the death then?

Maybe, but then how do the OotS leave the arena (area of combat)?

I don't see how Tarquin can be pushing it this hard (killing Nale, setting up Malack, setting up Z), if he's not planning on a fight to the death. How is he planning on the OotS escaping his army if he's still around and in charge of it?

[Baphomet]

It might help people understand Tarquin's reasoning if you imagine that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) was the first comic. That's where Tarquin first meets the order. In his mind, that's where the main plot started. This chapter HAS been focusing on Elan, obviously. We as readers know that this is because it's an ensemble piece and each character gets some time in the spotlight, but we only know that because of the previous chapters. Tarquin, on the other hand, doesn't know about Roy's problems with his ghost dad. He doesn't know about familicide. He doesn't know about Belkar's faux-redemption arc. He doesn't know about Redcloak deceiving Xykon for all these years. He doesn't know about the siege of Azure City. He doesn't know about the Snarl, the Thieves' Guild, Miko, Roy's afterlife, V's divorce, Haley's muteness, Durkon's exile, Belkar's mark of justice.

What Tarquin sees is a man reuniting with his father, fighting his evil brother, getting involved with a fiery love interest, and, oh, doing some kind of quest thing with a bunch of other heroes who don't have as much going on, as far as he knows. Hell, from his perspective, their entire quest likely only existed as a way of introducing him to them, remember how he happened to have the lead they needed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) to find Girard in the first place?They're more combat-capable than Elan, but that's not a problem; many stories have a hero who fulfills a different narrative purpose than Guy Who Is The Best At Killing Stuff. One of them is Elan's superior in the group, which is also not a problem; many stories have the protagonist working under a leader or mentor. But one of them is a bigger hero than Elan, and that IS a problem. He thinks Elan's the most important character in the story (he actually might be right, just not in the way he thinks he is) and the only reason for a bigger hero to exist is to be struck down by the villain to force the real hero to have a "getting serious" arc. We readers know better because of our perspective. If he'd seen the previous 721 comics, he'd know better too.

That's actually sort of a recurring theme here. Everyone's father figures that we've seen so far seem convinced that everyone else in the story exists as a prop in their own personal conflicts. Roy's dad (whose name escapes me at the moment) has raised Roy to handle his blood oath. Ian could not be convinced that Elan's presence meant anything besides an attempt to spy on him using his own daughter. And now Tarquin can't understand that the real story here is anything but his son's coming of age tale. The foil for all of these outlooks is Xykon. Xykon doesn't think everyone else in the story exists in service to him, he makes everyone else in the story exist as a service to him. He does this by having enough power to force people to either work for him or oppose him.

I would honestly love to see Tarquin faced with the reality of the threat he's dismissed as a sidequest for his son. Watching him try so hard to conform Xykon to the narrative he's constructing, only to be utterly obliterated with no effort because Xykon got bored. Maybe raised as a nameless ghoul. That would be a fitting end in my mind.

[Tock Zipporah]

Here's what's getting to me: Tarquin, who's been repeatedly characterized as a efficient and ruthless scheming mastermind, has established that he's depending on Elan to prevent the scenery-chewing villian from taking over the world, and is doing everything in his power to make Elan fail. I'm not going to take what may or may not become a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization lightly.

As far as I can see, there are 2 explanations for Tarquin's recent actions:
a)He's (become) an idiot. He's either putting too much faith in the "heroes always win" narrative than is called for, or genuinly doesn't care what the effects of his actions are.

b)He's lying about needing Elan to defeat scenery-chewing villain. Either he's already secured the final gate, or is about to, or something else that will almost certainly make the Order of the Stick little more than spectators in the last or second-to-last act of this strip.


In an unrelated point, I've had a recent reaction to the middle/end of Erfworld's book 2, where a character described as literally the "Perfect Warlord" executes a plan with the short-term effect of making him ignore a rapidly-changing battle for negligible tactical gain, and with the long-term effects of both infuriating a powerful but unorganized group his allies rely on and with direct access to his nation's capital and cementing his reputation as someone who under no circumstances should be trusted or negotiated with.


You've clearly vastly misinterpreted Tarquin's characterization. If you think his characterization is being "betrayed," you don't know Tarquin at all.

He's a megalomaniac who thinks HE is the most important villain in the world. He thinks Roy is a second-string chump who is holding Elan back. And Tarquin has a death wish; he flat out told Elan he wants Elan to kill him. "You murdered my brother and my best friend" is a GREAT way to make Elan want to kill him!

And why should he give a crap about Xykon? As far as he is concerned, Xykon is a fool who is going to be defeated. Might as well call Xykon a sidequest.

[Geordnet]

How is he planning on the OotS escaping his army if he's still around and in charge of it?
Simple answer: he isn't.

He's expecting ELAN to escape and vow revenge for his fallen comrades. Nothing else is mandatory.

[The Glyphstone]

That is an incorrect usage of the trope, due to the fact this is not out-of-character for Tarquin. Tarquin has always thought he was rtgthe main villain and knows this story follows the laws of story convention, and thus, killing off Roy would be like Vader killing off Obi Wan. From a story convention point of view, he is not hindering, but helping, Elan. The problem is that he is not the main villain and so he is wrong.

The correct trope would be Fatal Flaw.

I think the most appropriate trope is Wrong Genre Savvy, actually, maybe with a bit of Fatal Flaw. He's not the main villain, so the story he's trying to tell is wrong, and he's following the incorrect cues for the story that's actually taking place.

[Porthos]

See, that's my problem. I think Tarquin ought to be able to see that Elan needs his group.

He might. But Elan doesn't have a group. Roy does.

People keep glossing over Tarquin's main objection as if it were unimportant.

Near as I can tell he doesn't care that Elan is with people. He even expects it. What he does care about is the fact that Elan is the plucky sidekick.

So he gets rid of Roy's Group so Elan can form his own.


And he's a bard - I'm not well up on my D&D, but classically a bard needs a party more than most.

Gee, if only he was taking classes in something that might make a more, dare I say, dashing swordsman. :smallwink:

[johnbragg]

He might. But Elan doesn't have a group. Roy does.

People keep glossing over Tarquin's main objection as if it were unimportant.

Near as I can tell he doesn't care that Elan is with people. He even expects it. What he does care about is the fact that Elan is the plucky sidekick.

So he gets rid of Roy's Group so Elan can form his own.


So close. Not Roy's Group, ROY.

Note what Tarquin actually says:
It is clear to me now that following Greenhilt is preventing you from reaching your true heroic potential.

Following Greenhilt.

Roy is the problem. Belkar and Durkon are irrelevant details.

[Toper]

Lots of stuff about Tarquin's point of view
Well said!

[Porthos]

So close. Not Roy's Group, ROY.

Note what Tarquin actually says:
It is clear to me now that following Greenhilt is preventing you from reaching your true heroic potential.

Following Greenhilt.

Roy is the problem. Belkar and Durkon are irrelevant details.

Oh, I realize that. I've said it enough the last couple of days. :smallsmile: I was simply reminding gerryq that Elan doesn't 'have a group' right now. Roy does.

And that makes all the difference in the world to Tarquin.

====

I agree that Tarquin might consider the rest collateral damage. Or he might not. It'd all depend on just how much he thinks Elan needs a clean break and/or if he thinks this current group of ragtag group of misfits would follow Elan.

:durkon:: Ach, why shoul' we dance ta yer tune, Tarquin?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Careful, Durkon, you're starting to act like Roy.

[Burner28]

I think the most appropriate trope is Wrong Genre Savvy, actually, maybe with a bit of Fatal Flaw. He's not the main villain, so the story he's trying to tell is wrong, and he's following the incorrect cues for the story that's actually taking place.

Fair enough. Either way, this is a totally consistent trait of Tarquin-whilst he is intelligent, he has been foreshadowed to not be all that invincible.

[halfeye]

Oh, I realize that. I've said it enough the last couple of days. :smallsmile: I was simply reminding gerryq that Elan doesn't 'have a group' right now. Roy does.

And that makes all the difference in the world to Tarquin.

====

I agree that Tarquin might consider the rest collateral damage. Or he might not. It'd all depend on just how much he thinks Elan needs a clean break and/or if he thinks this current group of ragtag group of misfits would follow Elan.

:durkon:: Ach, why shoul' we dance ta yer tune, Tarquin?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Careful, Durkon, you're starting to act like Roy.
This still doesn't explain sending all his fighters into the crater leaving himself alone with Hayley and Elan. Hayley is very capable of a surprise attack.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Poor Tarquin. You are Wrong Genre Savvy. Elan isn't the hero of our story, Roy is. That means Xykon is the villain of this story and you're just the baddie of the arc. Once Elan's story arc is over, you will be irrelevant to the rest of the plot.

[Kish]

This still doesn't explain sending all his fighters into the crater leaving himself alone with Hayley and Elan. Hayley is very capable of a surprise attack.
Tarquin didn't believe he was in danger when Elan--who is in Tarquin's mind the hero destined to defeat him--pulled out a rapier and attacked him. He didn't believe Malack was in any danger when he sent Malack off with Nale and Zz'dtri (and look how well that turned out for him). He barely bothered to dodge when Amun-Zora attacked him. If he did act like he was in danger from a mere Hero's Love Interest, it might actually be valid to scream INCONSISTENCY. Once.

[Baphomet]

This still doesn't explain sending all his fighters into the crater leaving himself alone with Hayley and Elan. Hayley is very capable of a surprise attack.

Even if Tarquin were alone, he could probably shrug off a sneak attack and fridge Haley singlehandedly; he's got a few levels and lots of magic items on them both. It's worse than that, though, because he's got two associates there with him, either of which would also likely be more than a match for Haley and Elan. As someone else pointed out earlier, he likely thinks he's being magnanimous by sparing her right now. Villain killing hero's love interest to force the hero to grow further is another one of those unfortunate tropes we see all too often.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, I doubt Haley would be stupid enough to take Tarquin alone anyways. She fought him along with all the other Order members sans V when he was pretending to be Thog. she knows how dangerous he is.

[Porthos]

This still doesn't explain sending all his fighters into the crater leaving himself alone with Hayley and Elan.

Did he? All of them? Guess we'll have to wait till the next update to see.

And even if he did? He still has Laurin with him.

Furthermore he might very well expect Elan to attack him here. A climatic duel on the cusp of a desert crater might not be as good as a volcano, but it'll do in a pinch. :smallwink:

If Haley were to one shot Tarquin? Perhaps he would end his life by saying

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: But…it was so artistically done.
:haley:: Comparing your death to something that happened in tie-in media? No one would remember that as being legendary.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Damn.
*dies*

:smalltongue:

[Snails]

Even if Tarquin were alone, he could probably shrug off a sneak attack and fridge Haley singlehandedly; he's got a few levels and lots of magic items on them both. It's worse than that, though, because he's got two associates there with him, either of which would also likely be more than a match for Haley and Elan. As someone else pointed out earlier, he likely thinks he's being magnanimous by sparing her right now. Villain killing hero's love interest to force the hero to grow further is another one of those unfortunate tropes we see all too often.

Actually Tarquin probably thinks that keeping Haley alive, gives him a future lever on Elan. The plucky hero cannot fail to act when his belle is threatened, and the "girly" sidekick works within Tarquin's narrative logic. Putting a bounty on Ian might be intended as a hint, among other things.

Fortunately for Haley, Tarquin does not know that if Roy were out of the picture, Haley would be the one to take charge.

I am sure that Haley is no match for Tarquin as a solo. Tarquin's problem is that he is rapidly acquiring notably competent women as direct enemies, and he does not even realize it: Elan's mother, Sabine, Haley. (This seems to be one of Tarquin's blind spots.)

[halfeye]

Did he? All of them? Guess we'll have to wait till the next update to see.
Yeah. It looks as if they're all going in, but we'll see.


And even if he did? He still has Laurin with him.
Maybe, if she isn't also headed in; Miron too, whatever his skills are, and Kilkil, if he has any ranks at all in fighting, which I currently doubt.


Furthermore he might very well expect Elan to attack him here. A climatic duel on the cusp of a desert crater might not be as good as a volcano, but it'll do in a pinch. :smallwink:
As I suggested above, I think (for Tarquin), this is about now, not later. It may be a test of Hayley's worthiness, if she can one-shot or otherwise do for him, she's worthy.


If Haley were to one shot Tarquin? Perhaps he would end his life by saying

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: But…it was so artistically done.
:haley:: Comparing your death to something that happened in tie-in media? No one would remember that as being legendary.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Damn.
*dies*

:smalltongue:
I like that.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.

Only problem here. Since when is it a villain's role to help a hero? Tarquin has established he's a villain. As a villain he must oppose the hero, intentionally or not. What's left is to determine whether he is the villain of the week or he's a major contender in the sorting algorithm of evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil).

By forcing a confrontation now, and indicating no interest in the MacGuffin, Tarquin seems to be relegating himself to one-book villain status.

[halfeye]

I am sure that Haley is no match for Tarquin as a solo.
However, there is Elan too. If Haley Sneak Attacks him then Elan pun attacks, can they get him before others intervene?

[lio45]

I would honestly love to see Tarquin faced with the reality of the threat he's dismissed as a sidequest for his son. Watching him try so hard to conform Xykon to the narrative he's constructing, only to be utterly obliterated with no effort because Xykon got bored. Maybe raised as a nameless ghoul. That would be a fitting end in my mind.

Agreed, I also think that it would be narratively fitting, if Tarquin is defeated, to have it be by Xykon, and effortlessly.

[Sir_Leorik]

Agreed, I also think that it would be narratively fitting, if Tarquin is defeated, to have it be by Xykon, and effortlessly.

That's not what would be the most poetic defeat. The most poetic way to defeat Tarquin would be for Roy to walk up to him and Power Attack him, while he's peppered with arrows by Haley, stabbed by Belkar, clawed by a Barbed Devil and smacked by Durkon's staff, while Elan does nothing but play his lute and Inspire Heroics with Bardic Music. All the while Tarquin is screaming at Elan to "man up" and attack him, and Elan refuses, and as Tarquin dies, in desert, all his troops dead, along with Miron and Laurin, he says "No, you can't kill me Greenhilt, Elan is supposed..." Then they have Vaarsuvisus cast Disintegrate on his body.

That's how to defeat the guy: his son does nothing but support the heroes who kill him, no one witnesses his grand defeat, and the only members of his team left have no idea what happened to him, he can't be Resurrected and he has no great tomb. Then the OotS head to Bleedingham on their way to the Northen Continent, and kill the Empress of Blood for good measure.

[Baphomet]

However, there is Elan too. If Haley Sneak Attacks him then Elan pun attacks, can they get him before others intervene?
No. He appears to be at full health, has a melee build optimized for defense against practically anything, and a ring of really fast regeneration. Even if he stands still, it's going to take them several rounds to do enough damage to him to be lethal.


Agreed, I also think that it would be narratively fitting, if Tarquin is defeated, to have it be by Xykon, and effortlessly.

Can you imagine how Xykon would react to something like
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png "We've got an open spot on our team. I'm sure whatever you're working on can wait, how about you come work for me?"

[littlebum2002]

I know Rich never changes the direction of the comic just based on comments from fans, but I still like to think that the last few strips are directed specifically at people like me who were convinced Tarquin really wasn't that bad of a guy, despite all other evidence to the contrary.

[Mike Havran]

I know Rich never changes the direction of the comic just based on comments from fans, but I still like to think that the last few strips are directed specifically at people like me who were convinced Tarquin really wasn't that bad of a guy, despite all other evidence to the contrary.Um...Tarquin was always that bad of a guy. The disquieting part about the latest strips, I think, is that it might turn out that Tarquin was always meant to be much simpler character than "we" (a.k.a. his fans) thought him to be. But I'll still wait for the confirmation that it isn't an actual sanity slippage.

[gerryq]

Notice that this statement is entirely about what you WANT, and has absolutely nothing to do with how Tarquin has actually been characterized up until now. When has Tarquin previously demonstrated he's the character you want him to be? Go back and re-read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html



And it made sense, then, that Elan should go off and level up for ten years with his group. "I'm not going to take a dive for you."

Tarquin has never seemed like a fool. (And you're correct in thinking that I don't want him to start.)

[gerryq]

He might. But Elan doesn't have a group. Roy does.

People keep glossing over Tarquin's main objection as if it were unimportant.

Near as I can tell he doesn't care that Elan is with people. He even expects it. What he does care about is the fact that Elan is the plucky sidekick.

So he gets rid of Roy's Group so Elan can form his own.



Gee, if only he was taking classes in something that might make a more, dare I say, dashing swordsman. :smallwink:

Is it my cat or am I its human? It's Elan's group and it's Roy's group.

Tarquin has a long-established group. He doesn't change it every week.

[Kish]

Um...Tarquin was always that bad of a guy. The disquieting part about the latest strips, I think, is that it might turn out that Tarquin was always meant to be much simpler character than "we" (a.k.a. his fans) thought him to be. But I'll still wait for the confirmation that it isn't an actual sanity slippage.
I fail to see why your disappointment in the recent not-actually-a-revelations about Tarquin is superior to littlebum2002's disappointment in the recent not-actually-a-revelations about Tarquin. :smalltongue:

[Reddish Mage]

You've clearly vastly misinterpreted Tarquin's characterization. If you think his characterization is being "betrayed," you don't know Tarquin at all.

He's a megalomaniac who thinks HE is the most important villain in the world. He thinks Roy is a second-string chump who is holding Elan back. And Tarquin has a death wish; he flat out told Elan he wants Elan to kill him. "You murdered my brother and my best friend" is a GREAT way to make Elan want to kill him!

And why should he give a crap about Xykon? As far as he is concerned, Xykon is a fool who is going to be defeated. Might as well call Xykon a sidequest.

The idea that Tarquin is a megalomaniac who thinks the strip is about him, is rather worrisome and unTarquinlike.

Where has Tarquin seen evidence that he is the more important villain? Elan stopped in for a chance visit on his way to fulfill a long-running plot. Tarquin stated at the time he understood that. What's more, Tarquin acknowledge the reality that on the sliding scale of villain threat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfVillainThreat) he is a couple steps below Team Evil.

Tarquin, having established that he is, in fact, a villain, should have realized his narrative role is to antagonize the heroes and that the only question remaining for Tarquin to answer is "how important of a villain?" As the new villain on the block, Tarquin has to either rise to the occasion and establish Team Tarquin is a major contender for the MacGuffin, perhaps by worfing Xykon. Failing that, Tarquin is relegated to villain-of-the-week status.

[SavageWombat]

When has a narcissist needed evidence? He just knows he's the center of the universe.

[Porthos]

Is it my cat or am I its human? It's Elan's group and it's Roy's group.

But Tarquin thinks that as long as Elan isn't in charge it isn't his group.

Perception being more important than reality and all that. Tarquin perceives that Elan doesn't have a group of adventurers following him.

These are not minor points.


Tarquin has a long-established group. He doesn't change it every week.

Yes. Tarquin has a group. Not Malack. Not Laurin. Not the rest. Tarquin does.

(NOTE: All from Tarquin's perspective)

Elan isn't in charge of the Order of the Stick, Roy is.

Elan's quests aren't the main plot for the Order, Roy's are.

Elan isn't viewed as The Hero, Roy is.

In a way, Nale was far more successful in this point than Elan ever was. At least Nale gathered together a motley band of adventurers and actually led them. Instilling great loyalty in at least a couple of them.

This despite being mechanically weaker than Elan in many ways.

Think about that for a second. When it came to being a leader of men, which is one of the things Tarquin really cares about, Nale did a better job than Elan.

And it's not a wise thing to disappoint Tarquin when it comes to expectations. :smallwink:

[Baphomet]

Where has Tarquin seen evidence that he is the more important villain? Elan stopped in for a chance visit on his way to fulfill a long-running plot.

I doubt he saw it that way. There are two narrative events that could have been taking place when Elan happened upon Tarquin (completely by accident, not to visit). One is that Elan is already involved in a "main quest" and Tarquin's role is to provide Elan with the next piece of the puzzle and then either be overcome as an obstacle or forgotten about. The second is that Elan is, through a series of unlikely events, establishing backstory for how he became involved in the Tale of Tarquin, with an unimportant introductory quest just happening to require Tarquin's intervention to proceed. The first is what is actually happening, the second is what Tarquin thinks is happening. I'm sure Tarquin's misinterpretation of the moment that they met is likely the root of every mistake he's made regarding Elan.


Tarquin stated at the time he understood that. What's more, Tarquin acknowledge the reality that on the sliding scale of villain threat he is a couple steps below Team Evil.
Not to be contradictory, but when did he acknowledge this? He said villains fighting villains is a toss-up, but I think he just didn't want to get himself into the wrong place in his son's narrative.

A lot of people seem to think that Tarquin's strategy boils down to letting the rules of narrative get him what he wants. I think that's a misinterpretation. He's not trying to be a slave to narrative rules, he's trying to make the narrative be a slave to him.

He's always been pointlessly cruel. He burned dozens of slaves alive to demonstrate his villainy to his son. He orders the deaths of the people he has power over en masse for no reason. He tortured and forced himself on a lot of women, married them and then had them killed. We learned these things almost immediately after meeting him. These were not realistically strategic actions. He is deliberately giving a lot of people out there reason to want him dead and deposed. These are narratively strategic actions, forcing himself into the role he wants to play in the story.

It's not even purely the selfishness that makes him despicable. He is powerful, wealthy, canny, and motivated by narrative. He could be the hero of the story of a man who overcame all the odds, sparked a revolution, deposed the unjust warlords with a coalition of the people, and then gets a happily ever after. This is a narrative role that he surely knows exists. He could fulfill it and he would still get riches and respect and power, if he were simply going to let narrative put him in a good place.

But that's not what he wants, or at least not all of what he wants. He wants to hurt people. He wants to be a tyrant. It's not enough just to have power, he has to use it to make others suffer. He wants these things enough that he's willing to change his ending from the "lives a long happy life until he eventually passes on with the love and respect of the people whose lives he bettered" to "is executed for his crimes in fantastic fashion by his only son." He didn't just fall into this place in the story. He put himself there willfully. It's not strategically advantageous for him to do so, knowing what he knows about the rules of drama, but making the story into the one he wants told is more important. Likewise, it's not strategically advantageous to kill Elan's friends, but making the narrative into the one about his heroic son who eventually defeats him is more important. He's just failing because he's finally collided with something bigger than him and he doesn't know it. Many streams can end in a creek, but a creek ends at a river.

[Dalek Kommander]

I don't see how Tarquin can be pushing it this hard (killing Nale, setting up Malack, setting up Z), if he's not planning on a fight to the death. How is he planning on the OotS escaping his army if he's still around and in charge of it?

First of all, Nale killed Malack and Durkula killed Z; Tarquin only killed Nale, and if he had stopped at that he would have actually been doing the order of the stick a favor.

Secondly, he isn't planning for "the order of the stick" to escape his army. He ordered his troops to exterminate the ones in the pit so that Elan, THE HERO, will have something to really swear vengance for.

It's not going to work, but that's what he's thinking.

[Liliet]

I know Rich never changes the direction of the comic just based on comments from fans, but I still like to think that the last few strips are directed specifically at people like me who were convinced Tarquin really wasn't that bad of a guy, despite all other evidence to the contrary.
They were, but not because Rich read the forum and thought "hmm, there are people who like Tarquin, I should make him worse". No, it was determined long ago, when Rich was sitting at his table and thinking "Hm, at this point of story there should be a lot of fans of Tarquin, and HERE I'm going to screw them over". And now he's reading the forum and thinking "JUST AS PLANNED BWAHAHAHAHA"


I doubt he saw it that way. There are two narrative events that could have been taking place when Elan happened upon Tarquin (completely by accident, not to visit). One is that Elan is already involved in a "main quest" and Tarquin's role is to provide Elan with the next piece of the puzzle and then either be overcome as an obstacle or forgotten about. The second is that Elan is, through a series of unlikely events, establishing backstory for how he became involved in the Tale of Tarquin, with an unimportant introductory quest just happening to require Tarquin's intervention to proceed. The first is what is actually happening, the second is what Tarquin thinks is happening. I'm sure Tarquin's misinterpretation of the moment that they met is likely the root of every mistake he's made regarding Elan.


Not to be contradictory, but when did he acknowledge this? He said villains fighting villains is a toss-up, but I think he just didn't want to get himself into the wrong place in his son's narrative.

A lot of people seem to think that Tarquin's strategy boils down to letting the rules of narrative get him what he wants. I think that's a misinterpretation. He's not trying to be a slave to narrative rules, he's trying to make the narrative be a slave to him.

He's always been pointlessly cruel. He burned dozens of slaves alive to demonstrate his villainy to his son. He orders the deaths of the people he has power over en masse for no reason. He tortured and forced himself on a lot of women, married them and then had them killed. We learned these things almost immediately after meeting him. These were not realistically strategic actions. He is deliberately giving a lot of people out there reason to want him dead and deposed. These are narratively strategic actions, forcing himself into the role he wants to play in the story.

It's not even purely the selfishness that makes him despicable. He is powerful, wealthy, canny, and motivated by narrative. He could be the hero of the story of a man who overcame all the odds, sparked a revolution, deposed the unjust warlords with a coalition of the people, and then gets a happily ever after. This is a narrative role that he surely knows exists. He could fulfill it and he would still get riches and respect and power, if he were simply going to let narrative put him in a good place.

But that's not what he wants, or at least not all of what he wants. He wants to hurt people. He wants to be a tyrant. It's not enough just to have power, he has to use it to make others suffer. He wants these things enough that he's willing to change his ending from the "lives a long happy life until he eventually passes on with the love and respect of the people whose lives he bettered" to "is executed for his crimes in fantastic fashion by his only son." He didn't just fall into this place in the story. He put himself there willfully. It's not strategically advantageous for him to do so, knowing what he knows about the rules of drama, but making the story into the one he wants told is more important. Likewise, it's not strategically advantageous to kill Elan's friends, but making the narrative into the one about his heroic son who eventually defeats him is more important. He's just failing because he's finally collided with something bigger than him and he doesn't know it. Many streams can end in a creek, but a creek ends at a river.

This.

[Dalek Kommander]

Tarquin has never seemed like a fool. (And you're correct in thinking that I don't want him to start.)

Tarquin is operating from a single false premise (that Elan is the Hero of the story) that has led him to a fatal miscalculation (attacking Roy, the actual Hero of the story), but being wrong about one thing doesn't make him a "fool".

[Mike Havran]

I fail to see why your disappointment in the recent not-actually-a-revelations about Tarquin is superior to littlebum2002's disappointment in the recent not-actually-a-revelations about Tarquin. :smalltongue:I can always shrug it off when it turns out that Tarquin is, in fact, a complex tragic character desperately struggling with contradicting inner urges behind his determined external image :smalltongue:

[KingFlameHawk]

It might help people understand Tarquin's reasoning if you imagine that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) was the first comic. That's where Tarquin first meets the order. In his mind, that's where the main plot started. This chapter HAS been focusing on Elan, obviously. We as readers know that this is because it's an ensemble piece and each character gets some time in the spotlight, but we only know that because of the previous chapters. Tarquin, on the other hand, doesn't know about Roy's problems with his ghost dad. He doesn't know about familicide. He doesn't know about Belkar's faux-redemption arc. He doesn't know about Redcloak deceiving Xykon for all these years. He doesn't know about the siege of Azure City. He doesn't know about the Snarl, the Thieves' Guild, Miko, Roy's afterlife, V's divorce, Haley's muteness, Durkon's exile, Belkar's mark of justice.

What Tarquin sees is a man reuniting with his father, fighting his evil brother, getting involved with a fiery love interest, and, oh, doing some kind of quest thing with a bunch of other heroes who don't have as much going on, as far as he knows. Hell, from his perspective, their entire quest likely only existed as a way of introducing him to them, remember how he happened to have the lead they needed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) to find Girard in the first place?They're more combat-capable than Elan, but that's not a problem; many stories have a hero who fulfills a different narrative purpose than Guy Who Is The Best At Killing Stuff. One of them is Elan's superior in the group, which is also not a problem; many stories have the protagonist working under a leader or mentor. But one of them is a bigger hero than Elan, and that IS a problem. He thinks Elan's the most important character in the story (he actually might be right, just not in the way he thinks he is) and the only reason for a bigger hero to exist is to be struck down by the villain to force the real hero to have a "getting serious" arc. We readers know better because of our perspective. If he'd seen the previous 721 comics, he'd know better too.

That's actually sort of a recurring theme here. Everyone's father figures that we've seen so far seem convinced that everyone else in the story exists as a prop in their own personal conflicts. Roy's dad (whose name escapes me at the moment) has raised Roy to handle his blood oath. Ian could not be convinced that Elan's presence meant anything besides an attempt to spy on him using his own daughter. And now Tarquin can't understand that the real story here is anything but his son's coming of age tale. The foil for all of these outlooks is Xykon. Xykon doesn't think everyone else in the story exists in service to him, he makes everyone else in the story exist as a service to him. He does this by having enough power to force people to either work for him or oppose him.

I would honestly love to see Tarquin faced with the reality of the threat he's dismissed as a sidequest for his son. Watching him try so hard to conform Xykon to the narrative he's constructing, only to be utterly obliterated with no effort because Xykon got bored. Maybe raised as a nameless ghoul. That would be a fitting end in my mind.

I agree with most everything you say here with one exception. I think the best way to end Tarquin would be a role reversal. The thing about him is that he wants to be the one controlling the story, with everyone else being players that he can control. He killed Nale because he refused to cooperate and is killing Roy and the others to make Elan play his part in the story. Basically he feels that he is the writer of an epic novel and everyone else are the characters he has created that need to fulfill their parts of the story. For Tarquin to truly get what is coming the opposite has to happen; he has to become a pawn in the plans of another villain. To do this I think what should happen is after the order retreats into the portal (my guess as what will happen) he will go back to his castle and be killed in his chambers with poison given to him by Sabine and as he is dying Nale, now a demon like Sabine will shape shift into Tarquin and whisper to him the IFCC's plans just so he knows how much he was never in control.

[Willis888]

His big error is not "becoming an idiot" but rather, assuming Elan is the main hero rather than Roy.

That might not be an error. Even Roy recognizes that the plot seems to revolve around Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html).

Diago noticed it also. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)

[Reddish Mage]

I doubt he saw it that way. There are two narrative events that could have been taking place when Elan happened upon Tarquin (completely by accident, not to visit). One is that Elan is already involved in a "main quest" and Tarquin's role is to provide Elan with the next piece of the puzzle and then either be overcome as an obstacle or forgotten about. The second is that Elan is, through a series of unlikely events, establishing backstory for how he became involved in the Tale of Tarquin, with an unimportant introductory quest just happening to require Tarquin's intervention to proceed....

[In Response to my claim that Tarquin acknowledged a place down the rung on the villainous chain of being]
Not to be contradictory, but when did he acknowledge this? He said villains fighting villains is a toss-up, but I think he just didn't want to get himself into the wrong place in his son's narrative.

A lot of people seem to think that Tarquin's strategy boils down to letting the rules of narrative get him what he wants. I think that's a misinterpretation. He's not trying to be a slave to narrative rules, he's trying to make the narrative be a slave to him.

First, Tarquin said acknowledged that Elan was on a quest with a cliched scenery-chewing villain bent on world conquest. Tarquin controls the better part of a single continent, and one where Elan has only recently visited. Tarquin has no goals beyond that continent. The gates represent a threat to the whole world, perhaps even the multiverse.

In Tarquin's mind the laws of narrative rule the multiverse. Tarquin cannot ignore the laws of narrative just as he cannot ignore the laws of physics the rules of the skill system.

What I'm saying is that it is obvious that Tarquin's little empire is strictly small potatoes next to the gates. Tarquin KNOWS about the gates, and KNOWS there is a villain out there Nale worked for that is trying to use it. The laws of narrative dictate that Tarquin go after the gates or be crushed along-route.

[Sungrass]

Um...Tarquin was always that bad of a guy. The disquieting part about the latest strips, I think, is that it might turn out that Tarquin was always meant to be much simpler character than "we" (a.k.a. his fans) thought him to be. But I'll still wait for the confirmation that it isn't an actual sanity slippage.
Yeah... That about sums up my feelings on the matter.

[Kish]

Tarquin is operating from a single false premise (that Elan is the Hero of the story) that has led him to a fatal miscalculation (attacking Roy, the actual Hero of the story), but being wrong about one thing doesn't make him a "fool".
Indeed, as I said in another thread on the same subject, Roy's plans tend to feature Roy in a central role, the central role if at all possible. Even when, perhaps, a tactically superior plan would be one built around Vaarsuvius.

Does that make Roy a "fool"? Does it clash with his officially high Intelligence? Or does it just mean that he is, in fact, a character (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html), not a winning-machine?

[Shale]

First, Tarquin said acknowledged that Elan was on a quest with a cliched scenery-chewing villain bent on world conquest. Tarquin controls the better part of a single continent, and one where Elan has only recently visited. Tarquin has no goals beyond that continent. The gates represent a threat to the whole world, perhaps even the multiverse.

In Tarquin's mind the laws of narrative rule the multiverse. Tarquin cannot ignore the laws of narrative just as he cannot ignore the laws of physics the rules of the skill system.

What I'm saying is that it is obvious that Tarquin's little empire is strictly small potatoes next to the gates. Tarquin KNOWS about the gates, and KNOWS there is a villain out there Nale worked for that is trying to use it. The laws of narrative dictate that Tarquin go after the gates or be crushed along-route.

All Tarquin knows is that the Gates exist and there's a villain trying to seize them. He knows nothing of Xykon, and may even be assuming that whoever Elan and company were racing against is on Nale's level. The size of the Macguffin does not dictate the threat level of the villain.

[Porthos]

In Tarquin's mind the laws of narrative rule the multiverse. Tarquin cannot ignore the laws of narrative just as he cannot ignore the laws of physics the rules of the skill system.

What I'm saying is that it is obvious that Tarquin's little empire is strictly small potatoes next to the gates. Tarquin KNOWS about the gates, and KNOWS there is a villain out there Nale worked for that is trying to use it. The laws of narrative dictate that Tarquin go after the gates or be crushed along-route.

You're missing a main dynamic here when it comes to Tarquin's considerations. In the very next strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) after he talks about the scenery chewing villian he says this (and I am going to quote ALL it because all of the context is important):

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: "Somewhere between 'villian of the week' and 'good triumps over evil', there exists a sweet spot where guys like me get to rule the roost for years.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: As long as I go into this accepting the price I may eventually pay, then I win-- no matter what actually happens.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: And, hey, I was willing to make that deal when I thought it would be some random peasant shmuck taking me out. Now, I can really see the big picture.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: It's YOU, Elan. If anyone will ever defeat me, it will be you.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: I knew it the moment you told me you were a hero. All the pieces fell into place.

:elan: OK, well, then let's do the swordfighting thing again, only this time don't block.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: No, no, no! I'm not going to take a dive for you. You need to EARN it. Besides, it's too early. We just met. The tension needs to build more. You need to do some serious brooding about how you're doomed to fight your own father. Plus, I have the rest of the continent to absorb.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: So finish up your little plot and come back in, say, ten years?"

There's more, but that's the key.
---

He thinks of himself as Elan's Final Boss. He said as much. He dismissively thinks of Xykon as 'your little plot'. He says elsewhere that it's a source of XP grinding for Elan.

Is he ignoring 'narrative reality'? Well that's what makes him Wrong Genre Savvy. And it very well may end up costing him his life in an unexpected way. :smallsmile:

In fact, as I think about it, that might have been the EXACT moment he sealed his narrative doom. Because this was the exact moment where he fatally misread the situation by:

Discounting Xykon as a run of the mill threat
Prclaiming Elan as The Hero
And elevating himself to Elan's Final Fight.

As I have said elsewhere all that is required for Tarquin to act this way is to fatally misread the events around him. Well and have a gigantic ego. That helps as well. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

I like seeing all the different titles of people's posts due to all the thread merging.

[warrl]

Here's what's getting to me: Tarquin, who's been repeatedly characterized as a efficient and ruthless scheming mastermind, has established that he's depending on Elan to prevent the scenery-chewing villian from taking over the world, and is doing everything in his power to make Elan fail.

Almost right. It's more correct that Tarquin thinks it is important for Elan to succeed on the side-quest of stopping this unimportant scenery-chewing villain. Not for the sake of defeating the villain - the villain succeeding would ruin Tarquin's story, therefore the villain cannot possibly succeed. No, it's important in preparing Elan for the final face-off between father and son.

And he isn't doing everything he can to make Elan fail, he's doing everything he can to shape Elan to be the hero. After all, the final face-off can't be between the ultimate villain and a side-kick, nor can it be between the father and the son's boss. Nope, the son has to be the hero. Tarquin correctly recognizes that as long as Roy is around, Elan will be a side-kick rather than the hero.

(Of course, Tarquin is overlooking - or unaware of - a few things any one of which could seriously mess up his calculations. Among them are the fact that he isn't the main villain, the fact that Elan is not going to be the hero even without Roy around, the fact that Elan and Haley combined aren't even a minor speedbump to Xykon...)


I'm not going to take what may or may not become a betrayal of over a year's worth of characterization lightly.

I wouldn't either. But so far, Tarquin is quite self-consistent. He is 100% confident that he knows the overall plot and major turns of the story. Anything that doesn't fit is obviously just a minor detail to be dealt with in whatever fashion is most convenient - preferably in a way that will push the major characters toward the behavior his script calls for.

Delusional? Now, perhaps, yes... but he's held this vision for a long time, and it has worked - as far as a sane person living alongside him would see - pretty well so far.

[warrl]

What might (but probably won't) happen next:

How about if Laurin and Mirin decide that Tarquin set up Maleck to be killed by Nale (what Tarquin actually did is reasonably consistent with that interpretation, after all), and turn on him?

[Rakoa]

I like seeing all the different titles of people's posts due to all the thread merging.

The best part of this statement is the thread you're replying to. :smallbiggrin:

[stavro375]

You've clearly vastly misinterpreted Tarquin's characterization. If you think his characterization is being "betrayed," you don't know Tarquin at all.

He's a megalomaniac who thinks HE is the most important villain in the world. He thinks Roy is a second-string chump who is holding Elan back. And Tarquin has a death wish; he flat out told Elan he wants Elan to kill him. "You murdered my brother and my best friend" is a GREAT way to make Elan want to kill him!

And why should he give a crap about Xykon? As far as he is concerned, Xykon is a fool who is going to be defeated. Might as well call Xykon a sidequest.
I'm beginning to understand this thought process, but if Tarquin thinks he's the main villain & the gates are an unimportant, easily-dealt-with sidequest, then it should have been established much more concretely in-comic -- clearly, I'm not the only one who missed that point, and it's really fundamental to understand his actions here.

And if you think I'm only complaining about the Tarquin that exists in my head, then show where I'm wrong in thinking that he's a cunning, insightful villain who can clearly see his long-term and short-term interests, and is willing to put his ego aside (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) for the sake of the mission.



<snip>
I think what is unique about the situation is this: most villains see themselves as the most important thing in the world.

Tarquin seems to think the STORY is the most important thing in the world. And he, or his sons (to whom he has at least equal importance), are the most important thing in that story.
<snip>
It's kind of scary how difficult it can be to reach a point where you disagree with that, because as readers, that's exactly what we want. Tarquin, as a character, has an ethos that caters DIRECTLY TO YOU. You want to see the hero succeed? So does he! You want to see the villain defeated? So does he! You want to see exciting thrills and drama and epic battles? So does he!

And the reason we hate him now? That's a microcosm of what makes Tarquin interesting in relation to the reader (in relation to, say, Roy or V, to whom Tarquin is simply nuts -- or so I would presume).

Sure, we don't like him because he's trying to kill one of the 'good guys'. Tarquin is probably totally accepting on this level and won't care one whit if, on this level, Roy was to escape. In this way he's just playing into his part in "the story".

But, more importantly, do we hate him because he's trying to remove the main protagonist? That, Tarquin might be more protective about. And what defined Roy as the main protagonist? Much of it depends on where the story started from, where WE started watching.

But Tarquin didn't start "watching" from this point. As someone stated, he doesn't know who Xykon is or if he does, doesn't know, as we do, all the narrative of that main thread. He doesn't know all of that buildup. As stated, as he sees it, this story is about him and/or his offspring.

So the presents an interesting notion: do we hate Tarquin now because he's doing something villainous, or do we hate him because he's trying to take over the story?
This ties into a rant I've been mulling over for a while. What Tarquin's trying to do here seems to be making it "narratively appropriate" that Elan wins, at the expense of making his victory fit the story's internal logic; an idea I find repugnant.

It's because those antics menace suspension of disbelief.

Technically, everything that happens in a story does because the author says so, but keeping that in mind makes it impossible to enjoy a story -- hence "willing suspension of disbelief" and how most storytellers tend to hide their influence of events and give their stories an internal logic to explain why things happen. But Tarquin is actively trying to 'break' his story's internal logic and by exploiting "narrative convention", reminds the reader that everything in the strip happens because "the author said so."

[Tock Zipporah]

The idea that Tarquin is a megalomaniac who thinks the strip is about him, is rather worrisome and unTarquinlike.

Where has Tarquin seen evidence that he is the more important villain? Elan stopped in for a chance visit on his way to fulfill a long-running plot. Tarquin stated at the time he understood that. What's more, Tarquin acknowledge the reality that on the sliding scale of villain threat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfVillainThreat) he is a couple steps below Team Evil.

Tarquin, having established that he is, in fact, a villain, should have realized his narrative role is to antagonize the heroes and that the only question remaining for Tarquin to answer is "how important of a villain?" As the new villain on the block, Tarquin has to either rise to the occasion and establish Team Tarquin is a major contender for the MacGuffin, perhaps by worfing Xykon. Failing that, Tarquin is relegated to villain-of-the-week status.

I think I have to disagree.

First, Tarquin thinks Elan is just after some cliche, scenery-chewing villain. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) He clearly does NOT think this villain is a big enough threat to be bothered dealing with Xykon personally; instead, he's content to let Elan run along and play hero, toss him a few magic items to make it easier, and sit back with complete and total confidence that Elan will win and come back later to get to the REAL final battle with Tarquin.

And is clearly IS a megalomaniac. His speech here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html), he says he "gets to live like a god," and that "he WINS, no matter what happens," and that "If he dies, he gets to be a LEGEND!"

Also, in that same strip he says to Elan "So, you go finish your little plot and come back in, say, ten years." These are the words of someone who doesn't take the Xykon plot as a serious threat. This is "evidence that Tarquin thinks he is the more important villain." He assumes the OTHER villains will be vanquished in a dramatically appropriate fashion, and he'll have another decade or so of living like a king before Elan comes back for the final duel.

And as for Tarquin's "narrative role" and "how important of a villain," he obviously doesn't know just how much screen-time the other villains have gotten. He's spent all that time doing his own thing here in the Empire of Blood, waiting for the pieces to fall into place... which they DID, the moment he found out Elan was the hero destined to defeat him.

[Snails]

This ties into a rant I've been mulling over for a while. What Tarquin's trying to do here seems to be making it "narratively appropriate" that Elan wins, at the expense of making his victory fit the story's internal logic; an idea I find repugnant.

It's because those antics menace suspension of disbelief.

Technically, everything that happens in a story does because the author says so, but keeping that in mind makes it impossible to enjoy a story -- hence "willing suspension of disbelief" and how most storytellers tend to hide their influence of events and give their stories an internal logic to explain why things happen. But Tarquin is actively trying to 'break' his story's internal logic and by exploiting "narrative convention", reminds the reader that everything in the strip happens because "the author said so."

Your argument here has merit. We have a number of 4th wall breaking jokes. That can degrade SoD, but is usually not a problem when used sparingly. But here the character seems to be implicitly pointing to the Author, and asserting knowledge about what he is likely to be thinking. That is quite a different level of Meta.

Personally, I do not have a problem with that because I have always been skeptical about Tarquin's sanity. His "I am your father" moment cannot quite be squared with rational thought. It works, but only because it seems less crazy that what I am used to from Elan.

[Yendor]

If anything changed in Tarquin's character, it happened as soon as Elan showed up. "I knew it the moment you told me you were a hero. All the pieces fell into place." He lays out his grand vision of himself as the big villain, and Elan, his son, as the hero who brings him down, and a legend that lives on long after his death.

The problem for Tarquin is that he's utterly wrong about his role in the story. His plan to conquer the crappy half of a continent just doesn't stack up next to Xykon's desire to take over the world, or Redcloak's plot to threaten the gods themselves.

[Sungrass]

Discounting Xykon as a run of the mill threat
Prclaiming Elan as The Hero
And elevating himself to Elan's Final Fight.


It could have very easily turned out this way for Tarquin, had he played his cards better. By narrative conventions, Xykon's defeat at the hands of Roy is all but a foregone conclusion. There is even a possibility that Roy could die by heroic sacrifice while defeating Xykon.

If Tarquin had better understood the situation, he could have avoided attracting the attention of the Order until after the Xykon arc had concluded, and then he could have made his big play in some sort of sequel escalation scenario. With Roy's story complete, Elan would stand a much better chance of being a primary protagonist in his own right.

[Sungrass]

Your argument here has merit. We have a number of 4th wall breaking jokes. That can degrade SoD, but is usually not a problem when used sparingly. But here the character seems to be implicitly pointing to the Author, and asserting knowledge about what he is likely to be thinking. That is quite a different level of Meta.
Oh... Hrm... Do you suppose Tarquin might be some sort of Audience Surrogate here?

Is he the character that keeps trying to guess at the broader plot while under limited information (ie like many of us on the forums do)? Is his misunderstanding of his subplot an analogy of our misunderstanding of the main plot?

[Yendor]

Oh... Hrm... Do you suppose Tarquin might be some sort of Audience Surrogate here?

Is he the character that keeps trying to guess at the broader plot while under limited information (ie like many of us on the forums do)? Is his misunderstanding of his subplot an analogy of our misunderstanding of the main plot?

Gods, yes, it all makes sense now. The obsession with tropes. The belief he can predict the plot, and the insistance it has to go the way he wants it. The callousness towards anyone he doesn't consider important. The dismissal of anything not related to his idea of the story.

Tarquin is the Giant's parody of his own fanbase. :smalltongue:

[Lord Raziere]

Unfortunately, Yendor, it hits a little too close to home to take that entirely as a joke….I think there might be a measure of truth to it….even if its a drop...

[Leolo]

The problem for Tarquin is that he's utterly wrong about his role in the story. His plan to conquer the crappy half of a continent just doesn't stack up next to Xykon's desire to take over the world, or Redcloak's plot to threaten the gods themselves.

But Tarquins plan to rule half of a continent is based on the judgement that he does not have the power to conquer the world. It is not his lack of ambition, it is that he knows it won't work out by experience.

Something as big as the gates could change this. I don't think that we can already make a decision what Tarquin wants. In fact it would be plausible for him to threaten the remaining gate just to get Elan ready for the final fight against him.

The gate in the hands of tarquin would not be less dangerous than the gate in the hands of xykon or redcloak. He is no minor villian.

[Yendor]

Unfortunately, Yendor, it hits a little too close to home to take that entirely as a joke….I think there might be a measure of truth to it….even if its a drop...

I almost didn't put a smiley on it. I'm afraid I might be right.

[Bulldog Psion]

To reply to the OP: "Is this a Big Hint that Tarquin Has Lost It?"

I don't think he "had it" to begin with. This is just him from a slightly different perspective. Nothing has actually changed.

[gerryq]

Your argument here has merit. We have a number of 4th wall breaking jokes. That can degrade SoD, but is usually not a problem when used sparingly. But here the character seems to be implicitly pointing to the Author, and asserting knowledge about what he is likely to be thinking. That is quite a different level of Meta.


Yes, I was fine with the meta until it went what I think is a step too far into the sunlight.

It was okay Tarquin believing that Elan would come back a hero after various adventures and kill him. But trying to force the exact plotline to achieve that - that's the author's job. Is Rich really just a figurehead like the Empress, while Tarquin writes the story? Or should we expect Rich to appear in the sky sometime soon and skewer Tarquin with a giant pencil :smallbiggrin: I don't think it should be getting so meta that I am thinking of this stuff!

Still, Rich can write it as he wants. I'm still enjoying the story even if I would prefer Tarquin's characterisation as believer in narrative to retain a shade of subtlety/ambiguity/flexibility as it has up to now.



Okay,

[Reddish Mage]

I think I have to disagree.

First, Tarquin thinks Elan is just after some cliche, scenery-chewing villain. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) He clearly does NOT think this villain is a big enough threat to be bothered dealing with Xykon personally; instead, he's content to let Elan run along and play hero, toss him a few magic items to make it easier, and sit back with complete and total confidence that Elan will win and come back later to get to the REAL final battle with Tarquin.

And as for Tarquin's "narrative role" and "how important of a villain," he obviously doesn't know just how much screen-time the other villains have gotten. He's spent all that time doing his own thing here in the Empire of Blood, waiting for the pieces to fall into place... which they DID, the moment he found out Elan was the hero destined to defeat him.

The narrative convention is that the camera (or comic artist) follows the heroes. Tarquin appeared in the middle of their quest. Ergo, he is another villain. He could be the sequel villain, out to "so last season" the other villains and show that metaknowledge of the narrative is a greater threat to the heroes than pure power (Xykon), righteous cause (Redcloak) or cooperation (IFCC). However, thinking Tarquin can sit out the gates and that his empire lies at the big finale is a grand delusion, but it is also a naive ignorance of narrative conventions!

[Sky_Schemer]

Still, Rich can write it as he wants. I'm still enjoying the story even if I would prefer Tarquin's characterisation as believer in narrative to retain a shade of subtlety/ambiguity/flexibility as it has up to now.

I think this is a sign that Tarquin really has lost his grip on reality. It's just in the last few strips that he's gone from subtle use of narrative to talking about it obsessively (and trying to force a particular story).

[Joe the Rat]

I'm starting to think he never had a grip on reality - at least no better than Elan does. It's not just the 'love of the dramatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)' Elan gets from his father, but the tendency for blind Idealism. He believes the universe works on the power of plot - and should follow classic story conventions. Post-modern influences - or playing with tropes if you prefer - are his blind spot.

His interpretation of his role in the grand story is another issue.

[Reddish Mage]

Tarquin has lost his grip on the narrative. His source of power is gone. All he has left is a bunch of soldiers and party of higher level characters than the PCs.

From a strict game mechanics perspective, the OOTS is at his mercy. From a narrative perspective Tarquin about to make an inglorious exit in a nice neat wrap up of book 5.

[Porthos]

Considering Rich's comments in the Kickstarter thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15962127&postcount=460) (some small spoilers in link), this is a sign that he never had it in the first place. It is simply, as Rich said, the first time it's really impacted the plot to a huge degree.

[Joe the Rat]

Indeed. Only instead of being a source of humor and wacky hijinks, it's a matter of deadly consequences.

[Sunken Valley]

WHAT IF TARQUIN... was completely unstable.

[Tock Zipporah]

The narrative convention is that the camera (or comic artist) follows the heroes. Tarquin appeared in the middle of their quest. Ergo, he is another villain. He could be the sequel villain, out to "so last season" the other villains and show that metaknowledge of the narrative is a greater threat to the heroes than pure power (Xykon), righteous cause (Redcloak) or cooperation (IFCC). However, thinking Tarquin can sit out the gates and that his empire lies at the big finale is a grand delusion, but it is also a naive ignorance of narrative conventions!

His comments in today's strip referring to Xykon as a "sub-boss" certainly indicate he thinks of himself as the main villain.

And I believe it is flawed reasoning to say Tarquin has ignorance of narrative conventions just because he is sitting at the gate waiting for the grand finale. Case in point: the Emperor in Star Wars. We hear about him in the first movie (original trilogy, so episode IV). We see a BRIEF scene of him for all of two minutes in Empire Strikes Back. Then he finally shows up in person about 1/4 of the way into Jedi.

By comparison, there were hints about Tarquin going all the way back to when Nale first showed up, and the letter Haley got from Tyrinaria. If Tarquin is the final boss, those hints and the buildup that followed (from Tarquin's perspective) were all just foreshadowing the arrival of the main villain. Anything that happened before that was just window dressing.

[pedrogush]

I don't want to get too much into this, but every answer in this thread so far is pretty much right.

The name "Order of the Stick" means nothing to Tarquin. In Tarquin's mind, there are two people in this scene: Himself and Elan. Everyone else is stage dressing. The only thing that actually matters here, therefore, is sending Elan (and only Elan) on his way with everything he needs, whether that's healing, supplies, transportation, an XP-generating sidequest, or dramatic motivation.

Because if the world works by narrative conventions, a plucky hero with proper thematic inspiration is far more powerful than an entire squad of high-level adventurers with conflicting backstories. In his mind, he's not undercutting Elan's chances against Xykon—he's guaranteeing them.


Well, it might seem like Tarquin has lost it, but bear in mind that if he wanted anything BUT a dramatically satisfying story, he would not have brought his army into this. He would have them all killed in the most ruthless way possible, using any underhanded tactic available. This is what still sells Tarquin to me as a believable villain. He has NOT, in fact, brought out the big guns against the OOTS. No, he's bringing the DRAMATIC big guns, but in reality, the weaker part of his resources.


If he wanted the Order immediately annihilated he would have had his psion spam Psychic Disintegrate on Durkon until he became ashes, this action has no real cost or risk involved so one wonders why hasn't Laurin done it, since we've already established that Disintegrate can be cast from atop the crater. Then he'd use the opportunity to run into the fray and utterly obliterate the wounded Belkar. What could the Order do in this situation? There is enough manpower here to restrain both Elan and Haley from getting back to help their team in an approptiate window of time. Roy is otherwise occupied to be able to properly defend any of them, and even less equiped to handle long range powerful magic.


My personal take on this, and i may be wrong, is that Tarquin doesn't really care if any member of the Order other than Elan and Haley survive. This however does not mean that he will go to any lenghts necessary to eliminate them. No. What he wants is a dramatic scene wherein Elan can save the day and evolve as a hero. Note how he does not order ANYONE to stop either Elan or Haley from getting involved, despite the multiple tactical opportunities he has to do so. The only person he needs dead right now is Roy, the rest can very well survive the confront, hopefully with some added XP gain from the mooks he's "giving" them.


Of course, Laurin could just be casting some uber magic atomic bomb off-screen to throw on the party, making my argument totally invalid. Still i think Tarquin has not broken character in any way shape or form when we analyze his current actions. Notice how despite the better methods available to him he will always use the most flashy and cool thing he has. Would he have ordered a friggin' army against a random band of adventurers? I think not. This is a gift to Elan, whom he loves. Everyone knows an army against a ragtag bunch of misfits never works for the Villain, because the heroes either escape or defeat the entire army in one epic battle scene. The catch being that Tarquin wants the epic battle scene where he loses, he craves a legendary defeat. He holds the Villain Ball now willingly, willfully, and he is not a less competent Villain for doing that. This is the first time i recognize the trope being used like this. Props for a great comic!

EDIT: Reading the rest of the answers to this thread, one other thing also makes sense: Tarquin wants the resolution to his story arc NOW rather than later, in light of recent events. Think about it, he has just lost his best friend and killed his own son, the drama has been building up. He cannot let Elan go now, it'd be an anticlimax. He is not unhinged, he's just seeking his original objective.

[halfeye]

EDIT: Reading the rest of the answers to this thread, one other thing also makes sense: Tarquin wants the resolution to his story arc NOW rather than later, in light of recent events. Think about it, he has just lost his best friend and killed his own son, the drama has been building up. He cannot let Elan go now, it'd be an anticlimax. He is not unhinged, he's just seeking his original objective.
I said something like that.

I could be wrong, but so far it still seems that it can work, IMHO.

How he could be planning his own death before Xykon's demise if he does think he's the premier villain I don't understand though. Maybe I'm wrong that he's planning it, but it seems to be the obvious result expected of his actions.

[pedrogush]

Yes, i agree. He is genre savvy enough to know where this is all leading. Though the point that he wants the resolution now before "Elan's sidequest" is that it's just that, a sidequest. Tarquin has demonstrated so far that he thinks the whole thing with Xykon is boring and not worth his attention. Why should he have to wait while some B-list villain gets all the spotlight?

[Roland Itiative]

Yes, i agree. He is genre savvy enough to know where this is all leading. Though the point that he wants the resolution now before "Elan's sidequest" is that it's just that, a sidequest. Tarquin has demonstrated so far that he thinks the whole thing with Xykon is boring and not worth his attention. Why should he have to wait while some B-list villain gets all the spotlight?

He doesn't want the resolution now, he just wants Elan to become the main character/leader of the team, deal with "Zyklon", then come back for their ultimate showdown.

After all, Tarquin sees himself as the main villain, and Xykon as a B-list one, and we all know the main villain must be the last to be beaten.

Of course, what he doesn't realise is that he is the B-lister, and as such there is a high chance that the resolution to the conflict is coming now, too soon for his tastes.

[BaronOfHell]

It has been suggested that T "spelling out" X's name wrong is a foreshadowing of X offing T, but I wonder if it might as well not be RC offing T, maybe even after explaining to T, why he's the secondary villain?

[pedrogush]

He doesn't want the resolution now, he just wants Elan to become the main character/leader of the team, deal with "Zyklon", then come back for their ultimate showdown.

After all, Tarquin sees himself as the main villain, and Xykon as a B-list one, and we all know the main villain must be the last to be beaten.

Of course, what he doesn't realise is that he is the B-lister, and as such there is a high chance that the resolution to the conflict is coming now, too soon for his tastes.

Well, that is very probably true. Though i admit to being a fan of Tarquin and i really think he doesn't do things willy nilly without at least having some idea first what will be the consequences of his actions. This of course comes from me accepting the premise that Tarquin is perfectly genre savvy, which he may very well not be.

Though for a person who is perfectly genre savvy his actions are those of a death seeker, thus there are two possible explanations: Tarquin is dumber and less interesting than we have been led to believe, by being too caught up in his own personal ideas of order to notice the rest of the world has a different agenda in mind, OR he is actively seeking a way to fulfill his legend right now. I choose to embrace the later hypothesis.

EDIT: It would also convey for me as a reader a very powerful statement if Tarquin is allowed to "win" in this manner. The heroes would simply not have the ego to care that he thinks he won and just dismiss his point of view entirely. Later retelling of the tale would with the passage of time erase the name of Tarquin completely, with him becoming just another nameless Evil general in a nameless Land and time. All of his legacy would eventually become dust and ashes, to be forgotten. What i don't enjoy is the frame of mind that leads people to think he has to admit defeat for the comic to be satisfying.

[Porthos]

Well, that is very probably true. Though i admit to being a fan of Tarquin and i really think he doesn't do things willy nilly without at least having some idea first what will be the consequences of his actions. This of course comes from me accepting the premise that Tarquin is perfectly genre savvy, which he may very well not be.

That's just it. He's Not. He is, in the words of TV Tropes Wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy) Genre Savvy. He has been the moment Elan showed up.

Haleo and Julelan really drove this point home to me, but looking back this has always been a facet of his charcater. It's just never been quite so in your face.

What I had presumed, to some degree, is that he would adjust to the story (Be impressed with Roy, Try to sieze the Gates*, Adjust to Elan's Role) all the while trying to set the stage for a later conflict as seen in the future book Empire of Blood 2: Elantric Boogaloo.

* Admittedly he may still do this - though it's looking less likely with every passing strip.

Instead he is trying to warp the narrative to ensure it plays out like he wants it to. It's the whole "Everyone needs my kind of Stability" taken to an extreme.

If one wants to look at it one way, he is indeed genre savvy when things play out as he expects. But when they don't? Or when things are not turning out the way he wants? He doesn't adjust to the story, he tries to adjust the story to him.

...

And people say Tarquin has no ego. :smalltongue:

[pedrogush]

Haleo and Julelan really drove this point home to me, but looking back this has always been a facet of his charcater. It's just never been quite so in your face.

I haven't read Haleo and Julelan. I won't dismiss it as a source of characterization for Tarquin, but bear in mind i can't take it into account for my own evaluation.

Maybe Tarquin is Wrong Wrong Genre Savvy, making it a Right Genre Savvy?:smallbiggrin:


Anyway, i think there is more to Tarquin than this, sort of a "What you see is NOT exactly what you get" deal, as he has been known to do in the past. It is obvious from reading the strip that the point you're defending is the one that comes across most easily. Though T has demonstrated that he could, in a hypothetical situation have a plan and not be all up in the Order's face about it, lest they do something he doesn't desire. He IS an accomplished liar after all.

He has a ginormous ego, though. I guess we'll see when the next strips come with the ending to this story arc. Maybe it's some sort of theme running in the family, Nale showed us hidden depths before being offed unceremoniously from the strip.

Maybe T is tired of running the empire? Can he grieve for his son and friend, while having to mantain a working face and a cavalier attitude? Can T also have hidden depths as a character? IMHO Maybe, though it's likely he doesn't. As a reader i would welcome them.

[veti]

Maybe Tarquin, for political (or economic) reasons of his own that we're not privy to, just wants to destroy this particular division of his army, without incurring the personal cost of actually killing them himself.

He wouldn't be the first ruler to send an army against an enemy he knows to be way out of their class, just because he privately wants rid of the army.

[stavro375]

Gods, yes, it all makes sense now. The obsession with tropes. The belief he can predict the plot, and the insistance it has to go the way he wants it. The callousness towards anyone he doesn't consider important. The dismissal of anything not related to his idea of the story.

Tarquin is the Giant's parody of his own fanbase. :smalltongue:
That, sir is brilliant. Just brilliant. Never have I seen an insane fan theory that made so much sense!

[Bulldog Psion]

Maybe Tarquin, for political (or economic) reasons of his own that we're not privy to, just wants to destroy this particular division of his army, without incurring the personal cost of actually killing them himself.

He wouldn't be the first ruler to send an army against an enemy he knows to be way out of their class, just because he privately wants rid of the army.

They may be revealing too many plot points.

[Connington]

I think the reason the reason that people feel that Tarquin is acting less capable than in his earlier appearance is because they never really understood how he thinks. When they saw he had turned the evil overlord's guide into a prison warden's manual, they took him for someone just as undefeatable as they always imagined they would be if they were in the villain's shoes and didn't make any silly mistakes.

What Tarquin gets is that if you live in a world run by narrative convention you can run from the plot but you can't hide. Eventually, some peasant schmuck is going to come and run you through. But if you understand the tropes that impact this, you can punch above your weight class and enjoy the fruits of your evil empire for longer, maybe even so long that you have time to die of natural causes and the story becomes about the defeat of your vampire cleric friend's necrocracy. But that's a gamble, and you're essentially consigning yourself to the expository backstory. Or you can try to move the plot forward so that in five or ten years time, your own son will strike you down in glorious duel that catapults you into the history books, to be remembered for all time.

[Mike Havran]

Maybe Tarquin, for political (or economic) reasons of his own that we're not privy to, just wants to destroy this particular division of his army, without incurring the personal cost of actually killing them himself.

He wouldn't be the first ruler to send an army against an enemy he knows to be way out of their class, just because he privately wants rid of the army.That's very likely.
EoB runs for about two years, so it's time is almost up. Time to get conquered again.
The soldiers are revealing plot-critical elements = they know too much
He has to know that a big army of mooks vs. vampire will end up with the vampire leading a chunk of the army under his command and the rest will die. He was buddy with a vampire for 35 years, after all.

[Reddish Mage]

Considering Rich's comments in the Kickstarter thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15962127&postcount=460) (some small spoilers in link), this is a sign that he never had it in the first place. It is simply, as Rich said, the first time it's really impacted the plot to a huge degree.

Where has Tarquin earlier indicated that he was the main villain of Elan's story?Going back over the comics, all the indications I see is that he recognizes that the quest Elan is on is what's important to Elan now, not his father or his father's villainy.

[Gift Jeraff]

The soldiers are revealing plot-critical elements = they know too much

Maybe they traced the source of Gourntonk's leak to this division and this is Tarquin's way of eliminating them while also putting them to use.

[Reddish Mage]

His comments in today's strip referring to Xykon as a "sub-boss" certainly indicate he thinks of himself as the main villain.

And I believe it is flawed reasoning to say Tarquin has ignorance of narrative conventions just because he is sitting at the gate waiting for the grand finale. Case in point: the Emperor in Star Wars. We hear about him in the first movie (original trilogy, so episode IV). We see a BRIEF scene of him for all of two minutes in Empire Strikes Back. Then he finally shows up in person about 1/4 of the way into Jedi.

By comparison, there were hints about Tarquin going all the way back to when Nale first showed up, and the letter Haley got from Tyrinaria. If Tarquin is the final boss, those hints and the buildup that followed (from Tarquin's perspective) were all just foreshadowing the arrival of the main villain. Anything that happened before that was just window dressing.

I'd note the Emperor Palpatine remains overshadowed by Darth Vader. However, I accept the general premise about wanting to be the final boss. However, this analysis fails to note that Tarquin is strictly small scale. Compared to what the order is facing, he is lower in level, lacking in ambition, and simply uninvolved in the main villainy.

Elan doesn't wish to face Tarquin, not because he is busy doing interim, mid-season, quests but because the main quest is so much greater than a little dictator and his little empire on his little continent. Elan would be going back and defeating Tarquin the way the hobbits went back and defeated Saruman. Not as a glorious final boss, but as an entertaining epilogue.

[Tock Zipporah]

I'd note the Emperor Palpatine remains overshadowed by Darth Vader. However, I accept the general premise about wanting to be the final boss. However, this analysis fails to note that Tarquin is strictly small scale. Compared to what the order is facing, he is lower in level, lacking in ambition, and simply uninvolved in the main villainy.

Elan doesn't wish to face Tarquin, not because he is busy doing interim, mid-season, quests but because the main quest is so much greater than a little dictator and his little empire on his little continent. Elan would be going back and defeating Tarquin the way the hobbits went back and defeated Saruman. Not as a glorious final boss, but as an entertaining epilogue.

These are all excellent points, EXCEPT that Tarquin doesn't know this. He has no idea what Xykon is really up to. As far as he knows, Xykon is another random "villain of the week."

We, as the audience, know better. But the whole point is that Tarquin does NOT know, and thus, in character, he has every valid reason to think his elaborate long term well structured scheme is more of a "main plot" than "some gate his son kinda knows about through a friend of a friend."

[hopeful1212]

Where has Tarquin earlier indicated that he was the main villain of Elan's story?Going back over the comics, all the indications I see is that he recognizes that the quest Elan is on is what's important to Elan now, not his father or his father's villainy.

Don't forget that Tarquin is narcissistic. As such, he'll pretty much say whatever he thinks you'll want to hear (though it's often a twisted evil version of such), unless it conflicts with something he really wants. Even then, he may still tell you what you want to hear and then do something else instead. And whatever happens he'll have an explanation for why it's a good thing for HIM. Or something else happened, great that's exactly what he wanted in the first place. It's all just narcissistic BS.

So, get this, Tarquin NEVER cared about the details of the OOTS's current quest. He may have said differently in the past because it seemed like what Elan wanted him to say, but he still didn't really care even then!

IMO, Tarquin is wonderfully written and makes sense if you've ever had to personally deal with someone that's narcissistic. If you haven't, then I can see how it would be so confusing, because it is. Most people don't just say things without at least being willing to back them up at that time. But, if you're narcissistic then you do that stuff all of the time!

So, of course Tarquin also has to think that's he's at the center of the story, whether that's true or not. It really is all about him in his mind.

[hopeful1212]

Seriously, check this out and see if it doesn't remind you of Tarquin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

[Porthos]

Where has Tarquin earlier indicated that he was the main villain of Elan's story?Going back over the comics, all the indications I see is that he recognizes that the quest Elan is on is what's important to Elan now, not his father or his father's villainy.

Here, for one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) The strips that lead up to it as well.

The seeds were probalby planted here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html)

More subtle but here he reflects on the wisdom on Elan not participating in the fight. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html)

And earlier, he wonders why Elan isn't doing anything at all in battle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html)

However, even after those fights (and saying he wanted to see Greenhilt in action) he still calls OotS "Elan's Team". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)

We've already analysized everything from 912- to death, so I won't include those there. But everything above shows Tarquin focusing on Elan as being the main component to his plans.

Yes, he does look at 'Greenhilt'. And comes away from those meetings recognizing that he is a threat to his plans for Elan that must be dealt with.

[Reddish Mage]

Here, for one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) The strips that lead up to it as well.

The seeds were probalby planted here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html)

More subtle but here he reflects on the wisdom on Elan not participating in the fight. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html)

And earlier, he wonders why Elan isn't doing anything at all in battle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html)

However, even after those fights (and saying he wanted to see Greenhilt in action) he still calls OotS "Elan's Team". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)

We've already analysized everything from 912- to death, so I won't include those there. But everything above shows Tarquin focusing on Elan as being the main component to his plans.

Yes, he does look at 'Greenhilt'. And comes away from those meetings recognizing that he is a threat to his plans for Elan that must be dealt with.

Thanks for that. You must be seeing subtext I am just not getting though. I see there that he would like Elan to be in the spotlight, and that he desires an epic struggle with Elan over his empire. I don't see how this in incompatible with knowing and appreciating that there's some cliche'd threat to the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) that's a level above his own villainy to date.

It seems to me that in #762 Tarquin seemed to appreciate his place in the narrative. #763 does start to seem a bit off the rails as the importance of the Tarquin/Elan epic struggle is said to come sequentially after the current story and its bigger fish. However, Tarquin did seem to be becoming a player in the struggle for the gates (after letting the order go on its merry way) and its only post 912 where we see

1. Tarquin never had an interest in the gates
2. He massively under-appreciates the threat represented by Zyklon

[Doug Lampert]

Thanks for that. You must be seeing subtext I am just not getting though. I see there that he would like Elan to be in the spotlight, and that he desires an epic struggle with Elan over his empire. I don't see how this in incompatible with knowing and appreciating that there's some cliche'd threat to the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) that's a level above his own villainy to date.

It seems to me that in #762 Tarquin seemed to appreciate his place in the narrative. #763 does start to seem a bit off the rails as the importance of the Tarquin/Elan epic struggle is said to come sequentially after the current story and its bigger fish. However, Tarquin did seem to be becoming a player in the struggle for the gates (after letting the order go on its merry way) and its only post 912 where we see

1. Tarquin never had an interest in the gates
2. He massively under-appreciates the threat represented by Zyklon

"So you go and finish your little plot and come back in, say, ten years"

Yep, those are CLEARLY the words of a man who thinks the "little plot" is the main line and involves the end-boss while he's a side quest. Not.

This isn't even subtle. He as much as straight out says as in 763 that he's the end-boss and the current scenery chewing villain is the side-quest to grind for XP to get ready for the end boss.

[Reddish Mage]

"So you go and finish your little plot and come back in, say, ten years"

Yep, those are CLEARLY the words of a man who thinks the "little plot" is the main line and involves the end-boss while he's a side quest. Not.

This isn't even subtle. He as much as straight out says as in 763 that he's the end-boss and the current scenery chewing villain is the side-quest to grind for XP to get ready for the end boss.

Yes 763 does walk back the savvy shown in 762 about the true nature of the plot, but the fact that he actually made a play for the MacGuffin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) and filled out the recurring villain team (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) suggested he could be a reoccurring villain who actually had a grasp of the power of narrative.

[Shale]

But we know now that he didn't think the Macguffin was actually useful to him - he just wanted Nale to get a victory so the rest of the gang would accept Tarquin's decision to let him live. He either doesn't appreciate the threat the gates actually pose, or he doesn't realize that Xykon & co. actually have the ability to use them properly (does he know Xykon is the ally Nale was going to get the ritual from?).

[pedrogush]

IMO, Tarquin is wonderfully written and makes sense if you've ever had to personally deal with someone that's narcissistic. If you haven't, then I can see how it would be so confusing, because it is. Most people don't just say things without at least being willing to back them up at that time. But, if you're narcissistic then you do that stuff all of the time!

I have a friend who is exactly like this.

I agree with this characterization for Tarquin. Always act like everything is going to go his way, even though he just lost a major asset and had to kill his own son.

[ReaderAt2046]

From the latest comic, I have deduced that Tarquin is UTTERLY INSANE. He wants to kill Roy because he's stopping his son from being a big time hero? That's a ridiculous reason.

I think Tarquin is living in a dream world where he hopes his son is a big time protagonist, and he's a dictator infamous for his brutality and tyranny, but his son topples his empire through rallying the people, starting a rebellion and defeating his father in a one-on-one duel.

So when he found out that: A, he couldn't build an empire because its easy to lose one; and B, Elan wasn't a big shot hero, he probably got pissed.

He's not killing Roy because of some tactical reason, like "Kill their leaders, strip them of organization and they'll simply be a disorganized mass of individuals" He's killing him because he's taking the glory from his son.

I believe this to be an exact summary of Tarquin's reason. Tarquin, I think, is like Wanda from Erfworld. At his core, he is loyal to Fate, to the Story, and he will do anything to facilitate the Story taking its proper course. He believes (wrongly) that the Story is Elan's rise to power and eventual overthrow of the Tarquinian Hegemony. Therefore, Roy, as the person who is keeping Elan from growing into the Leader and Protagonist, is Tarquin's mortal foe. Overthrowing his empire or trying to kill him is a minor offense, pardonable. But threatening the proper flow of the Story? Utterly unforgivable.

[eilandesq]

All of this implies that the cruelest fate of all for Tarquin would be to be crushed effortlessly by Xykon after Tarquin ranted about his perceived role in the order of things, only to have Xykon mock him with a completely accurate description of his relatively insignificant role in the world, and pointing out that the little bard (whose name Xykon doesn't know and has never even heard, as far as we know) who hangs out with what's his name the fighter that Xykon killed who won't stay dead is way more important to the history of the world than Tarquin will ever be. The only thing that might well spare him that fate is that it would be a little derivative of the treatment Xykon gave to V (but that might be part of the insult, the fact that Tarquin isn't even worthy of originality in the manner of his demise).