The 3,500 gp Dragon challenge

[Acanous]

Hello Forum!

In a game going on over Skype, involving some members of this community, I've ended up stripped of almost all resources, alone, a week worth of travel behind where I need to be, and have a mere 3,500 gold, in a large city (6th level spells are available, anything higher is a roll).

My entire list of resources is:
One statue (Granite) of unknown value.
One Cart
one Warhorse Skeleton
50 feet of Rope
Spellbook
Holy Symbol.

My build is Wiz 1/Cler 3/Theurge 1/True Necromancer 2.
I cast off of Int on both sides thanks to a feat.

I have Corpsecrafter, and took the specialist variant (Necromancer), so my created undead have +8 STR and +4 HP/HD.

My stats are as follows:
STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 16 -I have the Frail Flaw
INT: 18
WIS: 10
CHA: 13.

I have no items. My Familiar is elsewhere and I get it back for the Dragon fight.
I do not know where the Dragon is. I do not know what KIND of dragon it is, and I do not know it's age.

Plans I have so far:
1: Create a few undead, buy amber amulets of Vermin (Scorpion/wasp) and go to town on the dragon after Disguise Self. Use Contact Other Plane to narrow down where the Dragon's lair is, and perhaps get a type out of it as well.

Pros: Well, it's pretty ugly, but possibly effective. Swarming a dragon is usually how one defeats it unless one has a wand of shivering Touch. If I can get it grappled, I can probably kill it.
Cons: It's a dragon, it has a breath weapon, and other means of stopping swarms. I might not be able to kill it in time. It's all a toss up on the dice and with tactics.

2: Make a ghoul. Have the ghoul make other ghouls. Take all the ghouls and throw them at the dragon in a human wave, while I sneak up with Invisibility and Silence for a Shivering Touch.
Pros: Well, now I'm nowhere near the dragon and have massive bonuses to Hide/Move Silently. I know dragons don't go anywhere without see invisibility, or better, true seeing, but I COULD buy a single casting of Mind Blank.
Pros: This gets me into "One-shot the Dragon" territory. He can't see or hear me, and neither can any of his magical traps. I will get in, I will get an attack off, and I've got +6 to hit a flat-footed touch. The Dragon's AC is ten or less at that point.
Cons: If the one shot doesn't work, I'm toasty. Yeah, it's 2d6 Dex damage, but if the DM is cheeky he may be immune. I could roll poorly, or other things might go on. I only have 400 GP left over to FIND the dragon.
I may not have access to Mind Blank.

3: Army of Darkness.
Like the above, but instead of using JUST ghouls, I go rob a graveyard. Get me a bunch of Skeletons, and buy a single pack of +1 arrows. Equip all the skeletons with bows and 2-3 arrows, and a sword for good measure, and human wave the Dragon with Protection from Energy, Mass on my minions and myself.
Pros: You know, 20 attack rolls a round is pretty nice. With DR/Magic being the most common, I might even be able to put the hurt on it. With the Ghouls up front, and the skeletons in the back, I could get the dragon tired before it kills me.
Cons: Yeah, the skeletons each have 16 HP and poor reflex. The Ghouls have 32, so could take a breath weapon, but those skeletons can't take a hit. Their To-hit is likewise not great, and the AC on the thing could be in the 30's. This is probably best to use if I want to sneak in and can't get Mind Blank.

So, thoughts? Opinions? Ideas?

[Enguebert]

Well without knowing age of dragon, it will be hard to prepare

But if dragon is about your CR, you will face a dragon with an AC around 20-24 so low level critter will hit only on 20 (especially if dragon cast Armor or Shield or have an item to boost his AC). So army of skeleton will do some damage, but not enough quickly so you will probably be dead before the dragon. Swarm can be useful, but the dragon could probably take care of it with his breath

Unless you are lucky, grappling will not work, especially if dragon is G.
And an intelligent dragon that face ghould will just fly and breath while being out of reach

Any smart dragon will avoid minor ennemy and goes after the most dangerous foe : you. So you will have to win quickly
But Dragon saving are around +10 to +15, so spell all-or-nothing will probably be nothing

Maybe you can try the grappling way with Black Tentacule and you also cast Ray of enfeeblement to reduce his str (and if you can create shadow, use them to reduce his str too)
If the dragon is size M, this can work. Will be more difficult if he is size G.
If he is TG, you're dead or dragon is dumb

[Segev]

You never specified why you're hunting this dragon with so few resources. What kind of time crunch are you under, and what is the goal of this combat? There are a number of possible reasons for fighting a dragon; some of them can be achieved by round-about means.

Remember that dragons have Blindsense; invisibility, even with an Invisible Obscuring Mist (assuming you even had access to the spell and metamagic feat) or a Mind Blank for anti-True-Seeing tricks, won't help. He'll know you're approaching unless you can make a hide check (likely explained by having him not able to tell you're not "just another skeleton" or something).

I'm assuming you're evil, so double-crossing people is an option. (If not, let me know; it is feasible to be non-evil and a minionmancer, after all.) Hirelings are relatively cheap; if you can find out where the dragon is, hire warriors to be your army or bolster it. Mislead them about the nature of your quarry to get cheaper rates. Use whatever tricks you feel like to get them to charge into the dragon's lair and attack. Go ahead with a straight-forward one, but make sure the dragon never sees you. If they win, awesome; dragon beaten and you're a hero for planning the assault. If they lose, make sure as many of them die on top of the dragon's sleeping space as possible. You want to get it to leave them there - possibly while assaulting the city in retribution for attacking it. Animate the corpses while it's out, and have them stay in place. Their orders: wait for it to sleep, then simultaneously make coup de grace attempts.

You can even take 20 on a hide attempt, backed by whatever tricks you have to maximize that. Then, you can use Shivering Touch, yourself, at the same time as the coup de graces from your undead minions that look like ordinary corpses.


Is the granite statue magical? If not, a Magic Aura on it could make it an interesting trojan horse. Especially if you can put out the rumor that it's got tremendous magical properties if used just right, or that it's a disguised treasure that looks less valuable than it is. This could be a delivery mechanism, or simply be a convenient way to find its lair (via Locate Object once you trick it into stealing it).


Using skeleton minions, you want melee or javelins if you can get them, because the +8 to str is going to be one of your advantages in their numbers. +4 to damage and possibly to hit (two-handed swords would make it +4 to hit and +6 to damage) is nothing at which to shake a stick.

I don't suppose you can get Destruction Retribution before having to fight the wyrm? Getting a small army of skeletons to go after it and to be in melee, and make it take 1d6 negative energy per HD of skeleton or zombie it kills...


Depending on your goal, allying - for real or as a ruse - with the dragon could help.


You absolutely must find out what its breath weapon is, if you don't know, and become protected against its energy type. If you go minions, having that protection for them will help, too, even if you're sending in living hired mercenaries as cannon fodder. It makes them think you care and lets you take more credit if they do manage to win.

You can't afford one, or I'd suggest a Wand of Polymorph. Army of Skeletons -> army of Hydrae would be hillarious.


Anyway, if you can outline why you're doing this and what your goal is, we might be able to come up with more nuanced tactics to fully exploit your limited resources and achieve your goal.

[Acanous]

Sure. Why I'm limited for resources: I killed a dragon, and the party stripped me of my gear for it. (Juvenile Brass, we had it at 0 and I made the kill. Party did not want me to make the kill.) the total value of gear I managed to keep is 7k, so sell value is 3,500.
What I kept for gear: One +1 Mithril Breastplate with Armored Kilt, one +1 Mithral Heavy Steel Shield. Spellbook, Holy Symbol, the horse, the cart, and the statue.

The statue is nonmagical. Magic was used to create it (Stone Shape) but that's about it.

Why I need to find this dragon: It kidnapped a party member. It's torturing that party member for information about our quest goal.

So, rescuing that party member could be a secondary goal. Divinations within my abilities on that party member have failed. I do know the approximate direction the dragon flew off in.

The rest of the group took off to a different town to resurrect the dragon I killed with the proceeds from selling my gear.

My alignment is L/N. I am OK shifting to E.

[John Longarrow]

Suggestion.

See if you can hunt down something big first, like a troll or two. Ray of stupidity from a flyer can put them down fairly quickly, so long as you only face one or two.

Troll skeletons are much more dangerous, especially if they get extra strength/HPs. (Trolls would have about the same HPs, a worse AC that doesn't matter much VS a dragon, but a 31 Strength).

When you do hit the dragon, let the skeletons go for it while you hit it with multiple rays of stupidity. Unlike a lot of other spells to reduce stats, Ray of Stupidity does damage so it stacks when used multiple times.

Assuming the CR of the dragon is about 8-9 (WAAAY high for you, but lets make this fun) a Black could have an Int of 10; Blue 14; Green 14; Red 14; White 8. If you can get off 5 rays, the dragon goes down. Range is close, so this can be a problem. Course if you can hire a pair of 3rd level wizards to help you should be able to slay the dragon then off the wizards shortly afterwards.

Note: Trick is to give the dragon a close melee target to concentrate on OR come after ranged attackers. If you can set up a 3rd level wizard to look like "The Boss", this can also get the dragon in close enough to 1 shot with Shivering Touch.

The more threats you give a dragon, the harder it is for it to concentrate one one attack. About the nastiest you should have to face is a juvenile Red. As a CR 10, its breath shouldn't destroy either troll, but you have to make sure they move in first then your wizards (get in range to cast) and then yourself. With a touch AC of 9, you want to make sure the wizards have cats grace and expeditious retreat up so you have a good chance of hitting it twice (average 7 points of int damage) with three rays. After that, the dragon can either try to kill the trolls or get past them to face you and your wizards. With 3 wizards you should have it mindless by round 2.

[Mithril Leaf]

Step 1: Buy a casting of Minor Creation (Black Lotus Extract).
Step 2: Insert poison into cow carcass.
Step 3: Buy a scroll or potion of glibness.
Step 4: Convince dragon to consume carcass.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit.

Remember, no problem can't be solved with enough poison. Except poison immunity.

[Segev]

So... the party is more interested in resurrecting a dragon the party fought and you finished off than in rescuing their own team-mate? o_O

I confess, I'd be pissed enough OOC at this that I'd be having trouble prioritizing things properly in a game situation. I'd be seriously considering walking from the game. Now, you apparently knew what you were getting into and are roughly okay with it, so I'll see what I can come up with tomorrow.

[Inferno Baenre]

The solution is burn the city down and take what you need...you'll kill everyone in it, gain a few levels. take levels in archmage. problem solved. doesn't matter what color, you'll have the spells to locate it, and find out how big it is. and as long as it isnt epic, cast disintegrate and change the element to the dragons weakness and kill it. done

or you can just control it.

[Segev]

What is the adventuresome population of the town? Perhaps this calls for playing the Mysterious Figure In A Tavern and recruiting a party of NPC adventurers to do your dirty work.

Use the Mithril armor and shield as payment for their party tank. Maybe even claim it's specially enchanted for heroes to beat dragons. Offer them whatever buffs you feel you can offer while maintaining a properly mysterious demeanor. Make sure to tell them about your friend who's been kidnapped - may not want to reveal he's a party member; instead refer to him as a victim of the dragon and come up with a minimalist but believable (and at least partially true) story as to why you're keen to see him rescued. If it's a female PC, even better: classic "damsel in distress" line can be fed to the NPC adventurers.

You might also play a similar role at a different tavern across town and hire some strapping adventurers to stop the evil group that is out to resurrect an evil dragon. They need not know it's Brass, not chromatic, and you can emphasize that the party in question is strong. Talk about how they robbed you in order to fund this villainous resurrection, and ask that they bring you back certain key items that are critical to the task, but let them keep whatever other wealth they can steal. Any taken is, of course, a blow for the good and lawful (particularly the lawful: they stole from you and that's a crime!) because it makes them less able to return the evil dragon to life. If they bring you back what you asked for, let them keep what else they take. You're still more well-equipped than you were after your party turned on you.

But you want a lower-level, thief-spec'd party of NPCs for this; their goal isn't to kill your erstwhile friends, but to rob them blind. This is important both to not actually get those you might still be able to recover as allies killed, and to make sure that, if this party tries to double-cross you and keep everything for themselves, you can probably punish them yourself.

I suggest, for that, that you trail them secretly. When they're distracting the party (if caught in the theft attempt), Animate the brass dragon's corpse. (If the corpse isn't being brought with the party, you should have access to it now, so you can go animate it NOW, and you seriously should.) If the thieves manage to steal stuff secretly, find an opportunity to sneak up and do so anyway. Whether you can do that or not...

Appear in your mysterious might before the thieves you hired, and request your items. If they won't give them to you, tell them that you rescind your protection from the evil party's retribution, and disappear.

If you managed to sneak up on the party and animate the dragon, send it to smash the thieves. Use your spells from hiding to back it up. If you couldn't, approach the party openly. Spin a tale of how your friend's been taken by the enemy dragon, and how you rushed to warn the party because it thinks they have the other dragon's hoard and is sending thieves to steal it.

This should let you manipulate the party into chasing down the thieves, and maybe give you a chance to make up with the party. If your Lawful alignment cringes at the fib, reframe it to be technically true. You're LN, not LG; deception in the name of the master plan is acceptable (if not entirely desirable).

Meanwhile, the brass dragon's corpse is also instrumental in taking down the still-living dragon.


While doing your Mysterious Figure thing, also sell your services as a spellcaster. Let people bring you their troubles, and charge them for the spells. It won't be much, but if you can even spend half your spells-per-day, you should be ahead a few hundred gold pieces. That will help you get potions to bolster other efforts. A potion of glibness would be excellent if you have to go to the "tell your party the thieves were sent by the evil dragon" line.


You could also hire a Divination or two to get some clear idea of what triggers to use, and set up some Magic Mouths on the statue. Send the horse rolling the statue up to the dragon. Its messages should include a response or two outlining that the dragon must release your ally. In return, it will tell him what he wants to know. Triggered by your ally leaving the area and the Divined-for questions, the Magic Mouth(s) then respond to the dragon's questions with half- and three-quarters truths that give the outline of your quest, but are designed to mislead it thusly: If it tries to aid your party's quest, it has enough correct information to do so; if it tries to hinder said quest, it will likely do so in ways you can prepare the party to HANDLE, and walk it right into your trap.

You use the Divinations to get the Mouths to appear to have a conversation with the dragon, despite being recorded. The statue serves as a patsy that is stylish and just mysterious enough to be intriguing, and your LN alignment is preserved by trading what the dragon wants for your ally. Your ally is now grateful to you for saving him (if perhaps annoyed that you gave the dragon the info he was enduring torture to keep secret). But he might be close to breaking anyway, so you spare him more AND half-guarantee his safety because the statue won't "talk" until he's released.




Oh, and if your dragonhunter party that you hire kills the dragon, just take the corpse as your payment: new zombie minion! If they get themselves killed, the dragon's at least weakened. Use the distraction to help free your friend, and possibly set up some trap involving other minions to kill the dragon while it's licking its wounds. You can even animate the dead party and have some new minions!

[atomicwaffle]

question: how are you casting 2nd lvl arcane spells for theurge with only 1 rank in wizard?

[Segev]

question: how are you casting 2nd lvl arcane spells for theurge with only 1 rank in wizard?

My guess would be Precocious Apprentice, but that is a good question; what spell(s) can your arcane side cast?

[Vizzerdrix]

I'll second the troll* skeleton idea, with a few amendments.

First, buy some egg shell grenades. They are a decent guaranteed debuff. Arm a few skeletons with those and a couple javelins.

You should be able to cast Black Sand (from Sandstorm), so do so one morning and toss a few live chickens onto it. You can use the stuff as a free buff for your undead, and if you coat the tips of the javelins with it, a DOT should one of them hit.

Then just keep up the pressure with your troll* skeletons and try to get your party member up and running, or land enough Stat damage while it is distracted.


*Troll can be any big bruiser. Ogre, bear, minotaur, etc.

[Chronos]

Now if only you had a wheelbarrow...

[Acanous]

I used PA to qualify for Theurge. I get Wizard 3 casting because 1 from Wiz, 1 Theurge, 1 TN.

[Feilith]

Don't Longbows have like 250 ft of range? Hire a bard to sing, give them all 2-3 +1 arrows, now they have like +4-5 to hit, Now line up your army and let fire. If you have 200 skeleton minions on average you're looking at ~40 hits assuming a hit on a 17 now all of these arrows do 1d6 +1 so that's about 190 damage on the surprise round. The next round assuming you're at max range will be dedicated to his charge, which will almost get him to your army. At this point you should cast your biggest baddest spell and fire another volley, now that he has his full AC I'll assume only hit on a 20, that's another 10 hits for 45 damage plus what ever your spell can do. Over the course of 2 rounds you've done 235 damage plus a spell. That dragon should be dead dead dead.

The big assumption is you being able to make that many. I'm not sure exactly how necromancers work but this could be a deadly threat.

[Vizzerdrix]

. If you have 200 skeleton minions

And how exactly is he supposed to get and control that many skeletons?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get some kind of flying/small/high-Dex zombies and give each one a Tanglefoot Bag. Hire an NPC manifester (priced as spellcasting) to use Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm) to cover the little flyers and their tanglefoot bags in Black Lotus Extract. Once they bomb the dragon they can just fly into it (bull rush attempts automatically make contact, his AoO makes him touch the poison as well).

Prepare Mass Resist Energy (SC), and wait until you know the dragon's breath weapon type to cast it. At your current level it should provide resistance 20, which should be sufficient to keep your (important) minions alive long enough.

Once it's on the ground and entangled + poisoned, cast Wall of Smoke on its space and it will have to save vs nauseated every round. Maybe arm your undead with multiple poisoned (Giant Wasp Poison) longspears via Psionic Minor Creation. After a given undead scores a successful hit that deals damage they can drop that spear and draw a fresh one to deliver another dose. Be sure the black lotus bombers strike first to cripple its Fort save, a few hits to its Dex and it should be incapacitated if it's not outright killed by Con damage.

You yourself can prepare Shivering Touch (Cleric 3, Wizard 3) as well as Spectral Hand (Wizard 2). This is optional, as the above strategies should be sufficient to get the upper hand.

[Enguebert]

Well some tactics here will lead you to inevitable death


Don't Longbows have like 250 ft of range? Hire a bard to sing, give them all 2-3 +1 arrows, now they have like +4-5 to hit, Now line up your army and let fire. If you have 200 skeleton minions on average you're looking at ~40 hits assuming a hit on a 17 now all of these arrows do 1d6 +1 so that's about 190 damage on the surprise round. The next round assuming you're at max range will be dedicated to his charge, which will almost get him to your army. At this point you should cast your biggest baddest spell and fire another volley, now that he has his full AC I'll assume only hit on a 20, that's another 10 hits for 45 damage plus what ever your spell can do. Over the course of 2 rounds you've done 235 damage plus a spell. That dragon should be dead dead dead.

The big assumption is you being able to make that many. I'm not sure exactly how necromancers work but this could be a deadly threat.
1) I don't know how many HD he can control, but surely not 200 skeletons
2) We talked about a dragon, not a blind, deaf, drunken and asleep ogre ! There is no way a army of 200 skeleton could have a surprise round (beside the fact that haveing 200 people able to aim at the same target is impossible except on a flat empty battlefield
3) Dragon has no dex and their AC is nearly the same flat-fooded and alert. If AC is around 20-22, lvl 1 minion has a small chance to hit. A little more and it will require a natural 20
4) If you wait the breath to cast mass resist energy, there will be no more minions to buff. Poster said that skeleton have 16HP and low reflex, so they will die on a breath (except lucky ones who get a 18-20 on their save)


Get some kind of flying/small/high-Dex zombies and give each one a Tanglefoot Bag. Hire an NPC manifester (priced as spellcasting) to use Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm) to cover the little flyers and their tanglefoot bags in Black Lotus Extract. Once they bomb the dragon they can just fly into it (bull rush attempts automatically make contact, his AoO makes him touch the poison as well).

Prepare Mass Resist Energy (SC), and wait until you know the dragon's breath weapon type to cast it. At your current level it should provide resistance 20, which should be sufficient to keep your (important) minions alive long enough.

Once it's on the ground and entangled + poisoned, cast Wall of Smoke on its space and it will have to save vs nauseated every round. Maybe arm your undead with multiple poisoned (Giant Wasp Poison) longspears via Psionic Minor Creation. After a given undead scores a successful hit that deals damage they can drop that spear and draw a fresh one to deliver another dose. Be sure the black lotus bombers strike first to cripple its Fort save, a few hits to its Dex and it should be incapacitated if it's not outright killed by Con damage.

You yourself can prepare Shivering Touch (Cleric 3, Wizard 3) as well as Spectral Hand (Wizard 2). This is optional, as the above strategies should be sufficient to get the upper hand.

1) Tanglefoot bag has a DD of 15. Range 3m. CR7-9 Dragon saves are between +10 and +14. So
- dragon will probably spot enemy before they have a chance to throw their bag
- dragon will probably pass his saves and still be able to fly (otherwise a DD17 str will not keep it long on ground)
2) Poster has only 3500 gold, so black lotus poison is too expensive
3) Giant Wasp poison (DD18) can work, but dragon has very good chance to resist it, so don't count on it. That's the same problem with spells :it can works, but if the spell has a save, the dragon has lot of chance to evade it


The poster has another problem : he doesn't know where is the dragon. That means the dragon will probably have the advantage to know the battlefield (alarm, traps, minions). And there is the possibility that the dragon will have the surprise

Some sideways tactics
- have dimensional door or some way to flee quickly if things goes wrong
- disguise yourself in something that is not too dangerous for a dragon (like an half-orc barbarian with no bow) and have someone/something else looking more dangerous (wizard). So if dragon acts before your group (surprise, initiative) he doesn't go after you and have at least the possibility to cast one spell (even if it is only dimension door)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1) Tanglefoot bag has a DD of 15. Range 3m. CR7-9 Dragon saves are between +10 and +14. So
- dragon will probably spot enemy before they have a chance to throw their bag
- dragon will probably pass his saves and still be able to fly (otherwise a DD17 str will not keep it long on ground)
2) Poster has only 3500 gold, so black lotus poison is too expensive
3) Giant Wasp poison (DD18) can work, but dragon has very good chance to resist it, so don't count on it. That's the same problem with spells :it can works, but if the spell has a save, the dragon has lot of chance to evade it

1) A Tanglefoot Bag automatically imposes a -2 on attack rolls and a -4 Dex, and halves movement speed. Let's say it's a Juvenile Green Dragon (CR 8), that gets +9 Reflex, but with the -4 Dex it only gets +7, vs multiple DC 15 saves. It's a pretty good chance it will fail at least one and be unable to fly.
-If he has ten such creatures all spread out it's very unlikely that it will even take out half of them before they get their hits in.
-Average or worse maneuverability when flying means it must maintain a minimum forward speed of half its base fly speed every round or be force to either land or fall. Halving its move speed does not reduce its minimum forward speed, so it basically forces it to double move if it wants to turn, as it must spend an entire move action going straight forward just to maintain flight. There is no saving throw for this.

2) I made it very clear that he's paying NPC spellcasting fees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) for Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm), which gets him one cubic foot of poison per 10 gp spent regardless of poison type.

3) When it's making a dozen Fort saves vs 2d6 Con damage at DC 20, each one it fails makes subsequent saves that much harder. If that doesn't outright kill it, then its Fort save will be crippled from the Con damage and it will have a very difficult time saving vs the Dex poison, and just two failed saves for that can outright disable it. Again he's obtaining one cubic foot per 10 gp spent for this poison.