What happened to Elan's super secret awesome plan?

[martianmister]

Seriously, what happened to it? He doesn't seem do anything. :smallconfused:

[Dwy]

As always when a plan is laid in works of fiction, it needs to nearly fail before it can be revealed, then through luck, sacrifice and improvisation it will succeed, just in the last minute.

Then again we don't know the timeframe or setup for the plan. Narratively speaking, pieces of it need to be foreshadowed or it'll get shot down by the audience as deus ex machina.

It'd fit if the plan resurfaces when the Ian-plot is resolved.

[martianmister]

As always when a plan is laid in works of fiction, it needs to nearly fail before it can be revealed, then through luck, sacrifice and improvisation it will succeed, just in the last minute.

Then again we don't know the timeframe or setup for the plan. Narratively speaking, pieces of it need to be foreshadowed or it'll get shot down by the audience as deus ex machina.

It'd fit if the plan resurfaces when the Ian-plot is resolved.

Are you Tarquin?

[Warren Dew]

Personally, I suspect Elan's plan may have been to have Durkon merge into the wall to help prepare the ambush back in the pyramid.

[FLHerne]

He has to end Tarquin's reign in a dramatically appropriate manner (because...Elan), but without making it some kind of epic final fight (because that would fall into Tarquin's alternative-victory thing). Ideally he has to destroy Tarquin's reputation as the Great Villain, for the same reason.

When's he meant to have had any opportunity to even try whatever his Plan is?


(I'd still go for arranging a situation where Xykon can just casually kill him - :xykon: "Who was that guy meant to be?" - because it would completely undermine Tarquin's belief that he's the Primary Villain whom the entire story revolves around).

Or were you thinking of some other Plan?

[Sunken Valley]

We'll know before 920.

[Jay R]

I'm not convinced, but one idea I've had is that his plan was to re-marry his father to his mother, which of course would require the services of a priest. But in the illusion, he realized that that plan won't work, so he's abandoned it.

[BlackDragonKing]

(I'd still go for arranging a situation where Xykon can just casually kill him - :xykon: "Who was that guy meant to be?" - because it would completely undermine Tarquin's belief that he's the Primary Villain whom the entire story revolves around).

Or were you thinking of some other Plan?

Honestly, if Elan was that kind of person, Nale would never have made it as far as cliffport.

[Shred-Bot]

Seriously, what happened to it? He doesn't seem do anything. :smallconfused:

Maybe he'll sing him a song with a suggestion planted inside.

"Dismantle, dismantle, dismantle, dismantle your multi-decade puppeteering scheme for conquering the non-elven portion of the Western Continent!"

[Drivort]

I can't remember who and in what thread, but somebody posted a theory that went something like this (and I seriously love it):

Elan has realized that in the setting Tarquin has built around him (ruler of an evil empire, will be stopped by his only living son, who is chaotic good, etc.), he has very little (to no) chance of beating him. But since Elan is as aware of tropes and genres as Tarquin is, he will do the next best thing: He will change the setting in a way that allows a scenario in which Tarquin can be beaten.

Unfortunately I can't completely recall the theory, it was a pretty long post and it was weeks ago. Maybe I'll find it somewhere.

[Aolbain]

As with most everything that comes from Elans brain it didn't survive contact with real life.

[Roland Itiative]

Personally, I suspect Elan's plan may have been to have Durkon merge into the wall to help prepare the ambush back in the pyramid.

That makes no sense, he didn't even know the Linear Guild was coming after them when he came up with the plan (nor that his father would be with the LG). The ambush plan was all Roy's, Elan's plan for dealing with his father is a whole different matter.


I can't remember who and in what thread, but somebody posted a theory that went something like this (and I seriously love it):

Elan has realized that in the setting Tarquin has built around him (ruler of an evil empire, will be stopped by his only living son, who is chaotic good, etc.), he has very little (to no) chance of beating him. But since Elan is as aware of tropes and genres as Tarquin is, he will do the next best thing: He will change the setting in a way that allows a scenario in which Tarquin can be beaten.

Unfortunately I can't completely recall the theory, it was a pretty long post and it was weeks ago. Maybe I'll find it somewhere.

I think I remember that theory. It was changing the genre, not the setting, though. That way, Tarquin's genre savvy behaviour will turn into his downfall, as he'll be on a situation where it doesn't work.

How Durkon would help with such a plan, however, is not a question with a trivial answer.

[Emulgator]

Wasn't the plan marrying Tarquin to Elan's mom?

[allenw]

Wasn't the plan marrying Tarquin to Elan's mom?

Well, that was part of my old theory on the Plan, which Drivort may be referring to: propose to Haley, change the genre to Romantic Comedy, invite Elan's mom to the wedding, and Tarquin becomes the grumpy old father-of-the-bridegroom who gets tamed by his One True Love.

Such a plan seems unlikely to work under present circumstances

[Emulgator]

I meant the illusion y'know. Durkon was needed and everything.

[F.Harr]

If there IS a plan, now's the time.

[Nettlekid]

My guess was that the plan was Elan marrying Haley, which is what he needed Durkon for. Roy and Elan were talking about the values of being a family when Elan came up with his plan. Both Tarquin and Ian have shown themselves to be utterly devoted to their family, Tarquin in the form of promoting Elan's growth as a character and giving Nale chances to prove his worth to the rest of the gang and even being willing to put behind the murder of his best friend for Nale's sake, and Ian obviously in worrying about Haley to the point of nearly murdering Elan to keep her safe. I thought that Elan's plan was to get married, thus combining them into one large family, who would be then forced to get along for the sake of the members they care about.

I don't think that getting Elan's parents to remarry was the plan, mainly because I think we'd have had more dialogue from Durkon saying "Ye sure this'll work, lad?" or something just to let us know that "Yes, indeed, this is the plan that's about to happen." Of course, if I'm wrong and that was the plan, The Giant might just pop in this thread and let us know that (as he sometimes does.)

[Bulldog Psion]

I just hope we find out before the end of the comic. :smallsmile:

[Ramien]

Considering Elan's plan involved finding a way to beat Tarquin without having Tarquin look cool, Elan got his brilliant idea when Roy mentioned something about finding 'family among the good,' and Durkon and Elan went off somewhere but didn't seem to travel or summon anything...

I've got nothing.

My best guess is that Elan had Durkon cast a Sending or two to contact someone who would know something about Tarquin that he could use.

My wild guess? Elan's arranging to get baby pictures and embarrassing stories of Tarquin that Elan can tell and display to the inevitable crowd when he has to confront him.

To stretch the Star Wars analogies that follow Tarquin to their breaking point - Who would fear Darth Vader if they knew he used to be Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen?

[HalfTangible]

I'm calling it now:

Elan's plan involves bringing in his mother to kick names and take ass. resolve the scenario.

[allenw]

I'm calling it now:

Elan's plan involves bringing in his mother to kick names and take ass. resolve the scenario.

However, things having gotten considerably more serious since Elan made the plan, Tarquin will end up killing the mother of his twins and shouting "NOOOOOO!". :smallfrown:

[Kish]

*peers at the Capital Letter*

Pretty sure it got plagiarized by the Dark One.

(Who knew that Elan came up with the Plan?)

[Bartle]

He had Durkon perform a ceremony which (in Elan's eyes) made him Roy's adoptee. Now he has no responsibility - nor ability - to fulfill his role in Tarquin's story.

[Ramien]

He had Durkon perform a ceremony which (in Elan's eyes) made him Roy's adoptee. Now he has no responsibility - nor ability - to fulfill his role in Tarquin's story.

Nope, can't be it. He would have needed Roy there as part of the ceremony. Besides, he seems to put Roy more in the 'big brother' family slot than in a traditional father figure role.

[Psyren]

As always when a plan is laid in works of fiction, it needs to nearly fail before it can be revealed, then through luck, sacrifice and improvisation it will succeed, just in the last minute.

Then again we don't know the timeframe or setup for the plan. Narratively speaking, pieces of it need to be foreshadowed or it'll get shot down by the audience as deus ex machina.

It'd fit if the plan resurfaces when the Ian-plot is resolved.

Alternatively, it could be totally silly and some other route to victory will happen instead. We will then be told about the actual plan as part of a gag. This has happened with one of Elan's previous plans. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)

Another misfiring Chekov's Gun was Roy's password to trigger Belkar's MoJ. Roy didn't reveal the word at the time, foreshadowing that either he would activate it intentionally later on, or that someone else would activate it by accident. As it turned out, neither of these happened. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html)

[Bartle]

Nope, can't be it. He would have needed Roy there as part of the ceremony. Besides, he seems to put Roy more in the 'big brother' family slot than in a traditional father figure role."In Elan's eyes". As a bard, he's concerned with the laws of storytelling, not with objective legality. If it makes sense to Elan (and reflect on "makes sense to Elan" for a moment), it's binding.

Wasn't there any early comic where Elan fantasized about Roy adopting both him and Nale, and giving them both ice cream ("YAY!!!")?

[Kish]

"In Elan's eyes". As a bard, he's concerned with the laws of storytelling, not with objective legality. If it makes sense to Elan (and reflect on "makes sense to Elan" for a moment), it's binding.

Wasn't there any early comic where Elan fantasized about Roy adopting both him and Nale, and giving them both ice cream ("YAY!!!")?
No. There was a fairly recent comic where Elan fantasized about Tarquin remarrying Elan's mother, them adopting Roy, and Elan and Roy both getting ice cream.

His fantasies about Roy have always, extremely overtly, cast Roy in the role of big brother.

...Actually, remembering his line about his mother crying about having lost a "nail"...Elan really seems to feel the absence of a loving brother much more than he feels the absence of his father*, doesn't he? That's an interesting character trait.

*Not to imply that he doesn't feel the absence of his father, just that it's not as important.

[HalfTangible]

Alternatively, it could be totally silly and some other route to victory will happen instead. We will then be told about the actual plan as part of a gag. This has happened with one of Elan's previous plans. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)

Another misfiring Chekov's Gun was Roy's password to trigger Belkar's MoJ. Roy didn't reveal the word at the time, foreshadowing that either he would activate it intentionally later on, or that someone else would activate it by accident. As it turned out, neither of these happened. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html)
That gag occurred under entirely different circumstances >.>

Er, no, that wasn't a misfire =/ the gun was that the mark would be activated (which it was)


However, things having gotten considerably more serious since Elan made the plan, Tarquin will end up killing the mother of his twins and shouting "NOOOOOO!". :smallfrown:

I doubt it. Characters have been dieing left and right in this arc. It's hard to keep the deaths impactful if they just keep happening.

[Bartle]

No. There was a fairly recent comic where Elan fantasized about Tarquin remarrying Elan's mother, them adopting Roy, and Elan and Roy both getting ice cream.Ah, that's right. Thanks!

This "make Roy family" thing still feels right, though. I just can't figure out how making Roy a brother (again, in Elan's eyes) would serve him.

For general reference: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html

Wellnow, what if he had Durkon adopt him? He's definitely a father figure, and could've done it by himself. And it seems like something Durkon would do just because it seemed really important to Elan, but with that exact raised-eyebrow "now what did *that* accomplish??" look that he returned with.

ETA: I realize that Elan has continued to call Tarquin "Dad", but that could just be Elan having poor impulse control.

[Psyren]

That gag occurred under entirely different circumstances >.>

I don't honestly think it will turn out that way but it is a possibility.



Er, no, that wasn't a misfire =/ the gun was that the mark would be activated (which it was)

Right, it was expected that the gun would fire - but the way it fired was unexpected, since Belkar was so exceedingly careful about not activating it before. (Carrying/staying with Roy's body and ensuring it wasn't put into extradimensional storage, only fighting undead in towns etc.) That left only the third condition, the one he couldn't plan for because he didn't know the word.



I doubt it. Characters have been dieing left and right in this arc. It's hard to keep the deaths impactful if they just keep happening.

I believe that was a joke about prequel Anakin.

[Silverionmox]

No. There was a fairly recent comic where Elan fantasized about Tarquin remarrying Elan's mother, them adopting Roy, and Elan and Roy both getting ice cream.

His fantasies about Roy have always, extremely overtly, cast Roy in the role of big brother.

Heh, then he might as well have asked Durkon to provide mystical assistance to speak to Eugene and ask to be adopted :p.

[kiapet]

I don't think the plan was something silly like marrying his mother and father, because there would be no point in the secrecy surrounding it. He at least would have revealed it for a joke before things got so serious. Similarly, if his plan was made obsolete he would have mentioned it beforehand so we could feel the dramatic tension when it all went down the drain. I think Elan's plan is still relevant, even if it turns out a little (or a lot) differently than he expected.
Then again, maybe I'm giving Elan too much credit. :smallwink:

[allenw]

I'm fuzzy on a few details, but I've got a theory... It could be bunnies...

Premises:
This whole arc has been about families, and specifically fatherhood.
Elan's surrogate father figure is Julio Scoundrel.
Tarquin's good-ish opposite is Julio Scoundrel.
Tarquin is a devotee of "good plotting."
Julio Scoundrel's airship is called the "Mechane," and appeared in the recent Summer Beach wallpaper.
Elan's plan was inspired by Roy's speech about "finding that sense of family among people who are good."
Julio Scoundrel has a *lot* of children (and a specific address to send paternity claims to).

Hypothesis:
Elan's plan involved Durkon using Sending to submit a paternity suit (or perhaps even an adoption request) to Julio Scoundrel. Julio will show up, and Tarquin will be defeated by a "Deus ex Mechane" (and hate it).
Extra points if he gets squished (flumph-style) by an actual giant idol of a deity, stolen by Julio and heaved over the side of the Mechane.

Edited to add:

Counterargument:
Julio expressly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) that he sincererly hoped he and Elan never crossed paths again, since "the most likely scenario is that I'd return only to be randomly killed by an enemy of yours so that you can cradle my dying body while swearing revenge."

But:
If Tarquin did kill Julio, it would be far from random. Plus, the best way to defeat Tarquin would be while proving that such trope-prophecy can be foiled or subverted.
Kind of hard to express this all in a 25-word Sending, though. :smallannoyed:

[E^G]

I'm fuzzy on a few details, but I've got a theory... It could be bunnies...

Premises:
This whole arc has been about families, and specifically fatherhood.
Elan's surrogate father figure is Julio Scoundrel.
Tarquin's good-ish opposite is Julio Scoundrel.
Tarquin is a devotee of "good plotting."
Julio Scoundrel's airship is called the "Mechane," and appeared in the recent Summer Beach wallpaper.
Elan's plan was inspired by Roy's speech about "finding that sense of family among people who are good."
Julio Scoundrel has a *lot* of children (and a specific address to send paternity claims to).

Hypothesis:
Elan's plan involved Durkon using Sending to submit a paternity suit (or perhaps even an adoption request) to Julio Scoundrel. Julio will show up, and Tarquin will be defeated by a "Deus ex Mechane" (and hate it).
Extra points if he gets squished (flumph-style) by an actual giant idol of a deity, stolen by Julio and heaved over the side of the Mechane.

Edited to add:

Counterargument:
Julio expressly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) that he sincererly hoped he and Elan never crossed paths again, since "the most likely scenario is that I'd return only to be randomly killed by an enemy of yours so that you can cradle my dying body while swearing revenge."

But:
If Tarquin did kill Julio, it would be far from random. Plus, the best way to defeat Tarquin would be while proving that such trope-prophecy can be foiled or subverted.
Kind of hard to express this all in a 25-word Sending, though. :smallannoyed:

Ha!
That's actually really good.
The specifics of getting his attention--not clear (Elan can't sue for paternity and why would Julio arrive in person for that anyway) -- but the general idea is great, whether Rich uses it or not. :)

[F.Harr]

...Actually, remembering his line about his mother crying about having lost a "nail"...Elan really seems to feel the absence of a loving brother much more than he feels the absence of his father*, doesn't he? That's an interesting character trait.

*Not to imply that he doesn't feel the absence of his father, just that it's not as important.

That really is.

"I'm fuzzy on a few details, but I've got a theory... It could be bunnies..."

It could BE bunnies. And yes, I know you put it in white and struck it out, but it's good line and that's all that matters.

[denthor]

Seriously, what happened to it? He doesn't seem do anything. :smallconfused:


Thog only got to phase three of the plan. It is no longer being followed up on.

[martianmister]

Thog only got to phase three of the plan. It is no longer being followed up on.

But what happened to phase two: kill them all? :smallconfused:

[F.Harr]

But what happened to phase two: kill them all? :smallconfused:

That's when the bunnies interrupted.

Big, visious, bone-chewing bunnies.

[martianmister]

That's when the bunnies interrupted.

Big, visious, bone-chewing bunnies.

Well, that would explains the bloody booklets...

[F.Harr]

Did I miss the bloody booklets?

[martianmister]

Did I miss the bloody booklets?

Didn't you read the part when Redcloak's surfers killed the oracle.

[Forikroder]

Seriously, what happened to it? He doesn't seem do anything. :smallconfused:
well the plan needs Durkon, and hes a TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD busy

also the plan was created before dream world so may be innefective now

[veti]

also the plan was created before dream world so may be innefective now

I don't think so. The Giant made a point of showing us that Elan had a plan of some sort. That makes it a Chekhov's Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun), and it's very unlikely that it would be simply forgotten or discarded without ever coming into play.

[Ramien]

well the plan needs Durkon, and hes a TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD busy

also the plan was created before dream world so may be innefective now

Durkon may have already done what was needed of him. Elan was also looking for a way to beat his dad and stop the evil empire, which was not addressed by the dream. That was even one of the reasons Elan used as why it was a dream.

[The Zoat]

also the plan was created before dream world so may be innefective now

I have no idea why it would, the new abilities aren't changing the game that much.

[Imgran]

I'm under the impression that Elan's Plan is a sort of "when we get a chance to breathe, and/or if a golden opportunity presents itself" sort of deal. I don't think it was prepared with Tarquin, 2 high level friends and an entire fricking army of mooks in mind.

[Kish]

I have no idea why it would, the new abilities aren't changing the game that much.
New abilities? What?

[Forikroder]

I don't think so. The Giant made a point of showing us that Elan had a plan of some sort. That makes it a Chekhov's Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun), and it's very unlikely that it would be simply forgotten or discarded without ever coming into play.

the plan was made before Elan realised his family couldnt be magically fixed so it may have jsut been a red herring

[War-Wren]

So... the only mention of Elan's super plan to defeat his father without making him look badass and be remembered forever is;

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html - where he gets the idea

and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html - where they are finished with the super secret plan and (it must be said) that Durkon looks perplexed or uncertain...

As this all takes place before T left Bleedingham, before the pyramid, before the Gate etc... I'm liking the idea of Elan marrying Hayley to combine the two families (cos, you know, yay!) but that won't change the fact that Roy is expendable.

Whatever Elan's plan is, it is more than likely far too soon for it to be implemented here, in these circumstances.

[Gift Jeraff]

It was also mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html).

[Chantelune]

Or the plan might just never be set in motion, as Tarquin might force the Order to take him out right here and now.

Would be kind of fun in my opinion if Elan's plan remain an unsolved mystery. :smallamused:

[Smolder]

Durkon may have already done what was needed of him. Elan was also looking for a way to beat his dad and stop the evil empire, which was not addressed by the dream. That was even one of the reasons Elan used as why it was a dream.

That was my impression. Most likely he already cast a Sending.

The question is, to whom? I had thought it was his mother, but after the whole microcosm realization it doesn't seem likely anymore.

I guess it could be Julio. He could be off on some side-mission for Elan that doesn't involve ever actually returning to Elan in person.

[Ramien]

That was my impression. Most likely he already cast a Sending.

The question is, to whom? I had thought it was his mother, but after the whole microcosm realization it doesn't seem likely anymore.

I guess it could be Julio. He could be off on some side-mission for Elan that doesn't involve ever actually returning to Elan in person.

If it weren't for the family resemblance between Elan and Tarquin (and Nale), I'd consider the possibility he was trying to get Julio to claim him as his son as result of a tryst with Elan's mom - she does have all those photos, and had kept them secret enough that Elan thought she thought he didn't know about them. I do agree that he would be trying to keep Julio out of the fray - even if Julio avoids the standard mentor fate, any fights he gets into would be extremely noteworthy...

Although I can almost see Julio and Tarquin sitting down and compare their relative rankings for 'sexiest man alive'...

[Yoyoyo]

I like Julio as much as the next person, but how does his "adoption" of Elan or involvement make Tarquin look less "bad ass" (which seems to be the crux of Elan's problem)? I just don't see Julio out bad assing Tarquin, particularly if he is going to be the martyred mentor.

And typically the martyred mentor is a catalyst for the hero to train harder and beat the bad guy (Obi Wan, Micky from Rocky, etc.) Elan should have that motivation already after witnessing his dad's evil and killing Nale. True, Nale is hardly a mentor to Elan, but Elan did the classic "Nale!" yell, which would make a "Julio!" yell kind of repetitive.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe the Mechane bombed one of Tarquin's palaces. Two of Tarquin's party members have no name or lines so they can be killed off-panel no prob.

[Ramien]

I like Julio as much as the next person, but how does his "adoption" of Elan or involvement make Tarquin look less "bad ass" (which seems to be the crux of Elan's problem)? I just don't see Julio out bad assing Tarquin, particularly if he is going to be the martyred mentor.

And typically the martyred mentor is a catalyst for the hero to train harder and beat the bad guy (Obi Wan, Micky from Rocky, etc.) Elan should have that motivation already after witnessing his dad's evil and killing Nale. True, Nale is hardly a mentor to Elan, but Elan did the classic "Nale!" yell, which would make a "Julio!" yell kind of repetitive.

Julio adopting/claiming Elan would partially deflate the epic scope of the fight between Tarquin and Elan. It would no longer have the father/son angle going and that would steal a lot of Tarquin's thunder.

:elan: You're not my dad! I'm not your legacy! You're not that important to the plot! Thanks for the dinosaur rides, though.

I don't actually think that's the case, but that's the angle I would see Elan going for if that were.

[ti'esar]

Julio adopting/claiming Elan would partially deflate the epic scope of the fight between Tarquin and Elan. It would no longer have the father/son angle going and that would steal a lot of Tarquin's thunder.

:elan: You're not my dad! I'm not your legacy! You're not that important to the plot! Thanks for the dinosaur rides, though.

I don't actually think that's the case, but that's the angle I would see Elan going for if that were.

While not necessarily ruling it out, we've had pretty clear evidence recently that Tarquin would not take Elan rejecting his role in The Story Of Tarquin nearly as well as this plan assumes.

[Ramien]

While not necessarily ruling it out, we've had pretty clear evidence recently that Tarquin would not take Elan rejecting his role in The Story Of Tarquin nearly as well as this plan assumes.

Of course. Tarquin would try and kill Elan; he wouldn't really have a choice. He won't catch Elan as unawares as he did Nale, though. And they would both be lecturing the other during the fight, Tarquin trying to convince Elan to accept his 'correct' place in the story, and Elan pointing out all the holes in Tarquin's ideas, trying to chip away not at Tarquin's HP, but at his ego and self-control.

I don't think things will quite happen that way either (No family resemblance between Julio and Elan), but it's a good thought exercise and hypothetical situation.

[NZNinja]

While not necessarily ruling it out, we've had pretty clear evidence recently that Tarquin would not take Elan rejecting his role in The Story Of Tarquin nearly as well as this plan assumes.

I think the point is precisely that he wouldn't take it well: it could be the well-timed mid-battle revelation that makes Tarquin drop his otherwise nigh-impenetrable defenses. As Captain Smirk (http://www.miwiki.net/Captain_Smirk) said:

"Sword fighting is kinda like making love. It's not always what you do, but what you say. Any fool pirate can swing a sharp piece of metal around and hope to cut something... ...but the pros... ...they know just when to cut their opponent with an insult... ...one that catches 'em off guard. You see, kid, your wit's got to be twice as sharp as your sword."*
* I know pun-swordfighting is not directly related to insult-swordfighting, but there appears to be a large cross-over skillset.

Although Elan may yet surprise us: if Tarquin is basing his decisions over his understanding of narrative structure, Elan might be able to defeat him through his superior understanding of the same (that sort of stuff comes naturally to Bards, apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)).

:elan: I'm so sorry Dad... I can't keep doing this. I've got to let you go.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png** (confused) What?
:elan: ...Dad... You've been dead the whole time.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png No, I'm pretty sure I'm not.
:elan: The lack of physical contact; no-one but me speaking directly to you this whole time; it's all so clear now.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png I threw Durkon around like a ragdoll! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) Hayley, Laurin, Nale - they were all JUST talking to me!
:elan: ...Goodbye, Dad! Go into the light!

** Excellent Tarquin head stolen from the Class and Level Geekery thread.

...OK, maybe not Sixth Sense exactly, but some sort of Shyamalan-style twist.

[veti]

Whatever the plan is, I'm confident of three things:

We'll find out eventually. It hasn't been forgotten. Durkon's changed status may or may not affect it, but if it does, there will be a workaround.
We have not been, and will not be until it is revealed, given enough clues to deduce what it actually is.
It is theoretically possible that someone on this board may guess it out of sheer luck. But none of the possibilities put forward so far look even vaguely plausible to me.

[F.Harr]

Didn't you read the part when Redcloak's surfers killed the oracle.

Was that in the Stick Beach OotS in a Beach-Party movie from the OotS in a Different Genre thread?


I'm under the impression that Elan's Plan is a sort of "when we get a chance to breathe, and/or if a golden opportunity presents itself" sort of deal. I don't think it was prepared with Tarquin, 2 high level friends and an entire fricking army of mooks in mind.

Armies do tend to change plans a bit.


So... the only mention of Elan's super plan to defeat his father without making him look badass and be remembered forever is;

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html - where he gets the idea

and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html - where they are finished with the super secret plan and (it must be said) that Durkon looks perplexed or uncertain...

As this all takes place before T left Bleedingham, before the pyramid, before the Gate etc... I'm liking the idea of Elan marrying Hayley to combine the two families (cos, you know, yay!) but that won't change the fact that Roy is expendable.

Whatever Elan's plan is, it is more than likely far too soon for it to be implemented here, in these circumstances.

Fine, be reasonable. :)


If it weren't for the family resemblance between Elan and Tarquin (and Nale), I'd consider the possibility he was trying to get Julio to claim him as his son as result of a tryst with Elan's mom - she does have all those photos, and had kept them secret enough that Elan thought she thought he didn't know about them. I do agree that he would be trying to keep Julio out of the fray - even if Julio avoids the standard mentor fate, any fights he gets into would be extremely noteworthy...

Although I can almost see Julio and Tarquin sitting down and compare their relative rankings for 'sexiest man alive'...

Add it to "Fantasy Meetings". Although I would think they wouldn't get along. Lawful vs. chaotic, you know.


Of course. Tarquin would try and kill Elan; he wouldn't really have a choice. He won't catch Elan as unawares as he did Nale, though. And they would both be lecturing the other during the fight, Tarquin trying to convince Elan to accept his 'correct' place in the story, and Elan pointing out all the holes in Tarquin's ideas, trying to chip away not at Tarquin's HP, but at his ego and self-control.

I don't think things will quite happen that way either (No family resemblance between Julio and Elan), but it's a good thought exercise and hypothetical situation.

That cold be fun.


I think the point is precisely that he wouldn't take it well: it could be the well-timed mid-battle revelation that makes Tarquin drop his otherwise nigh-impenetrable defenses. As Captain Smirk (http://www.miwiki.net/Captain_Smirk) said:

"Sword fighting is kinda like making love. It's not always what you do, but what you say. Any fool pirate can swing a sharp piece of metal around and hope to cut something... ...but the pros... ...they know just when to cut their opponent with an insult... ...one that catches 'em off guard. You see, kid, your wit's got to be twice as sharp as your sword."*
* I know pun-swordfighting is not directly related to insult-swordfighting, but there appears to be a large cross-over skillset.

Although Elan may yet surprise us: if Tarquin is basing his decisions over his understanding of narrative structure, Elan might be able to defeat him through his superior understanding of the same (that sort of stuff comes naturally to Bards, apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)).

:elan: I'm so sorry Dad... I can't keep doing this. I've got to let you go.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png** (confused) What?
:elan: ...Dad... You've been dead the whole time.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png No, I'm pretty sure I'm not.
:elan: The lack of physical contact; no-one but me speaking directly to you this whole time; it's all so clear now.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png I threw Durkon around like a ragdoll! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) Hayley, Laurin, Nale - they were all JUST talking to me!
:elan: ...Goodbye, Dad! Go into the light!

** Excellent Tarquin head stolen from the Class and Level Geekery thread.

...OK, maybe not Sixth Sense exactly, but some sort of Shyamalan-style twist.

Ha! I love it! An illusion would be needed for the other folks to not see Tarquin, there.

[secondwhiteline]

A lot of interesting ideas here. The one point I keep getting tripped up on is why Durkon specifically is needed. Here's my theory.

Elan's first concern is not having a totally awesome battle on the palace steps that'll make Tarquin look badass. And really, since Tarquin is a great warrior, any long, drawn-out battle with him improves his reputation. And he's smart enough to plan for and react to any logical method of taking him down - assassination attempts through ranged attacks or magical means - so attempting those will only make him look badass, as well.

An epic throne room battle between father and son while an evil empress looks on is exactly the climax that Tarquin desires. It's the perfect chance for Tarquin to go out big, maybe even with a few audience-endearing moments of redemption. So the only method of physically stopping him in a way that's publicly humiliating is cutting short the battle with a "hilarious anti-climax," as Belkar might say. Having Tarquin be collateral damage in the rampage of a high-level villain like Xykon is a possibility, but Elan's sense of humor isn't that dark. No, what's needed here is a good dose of physical comedy. What else would you expect from a bumbling sidekick? And what's the most iconic cartoon slapstick gag? Getting flattened by a falling object, especially a ridiculous one.

This is where Durkon comes in. Durkon's needed specifically because of his Stone Shape spell. The power behind the throne isn't Tarquin; it's something like reinforced concrete pylons. Break those, and you break the throne...because it's already stressed from the weight of a giant, confused red dragon. Getting comically flattened by a fat monster who's too dumb to know what's going on around her is a perfect humiliation. Find a way for the masses to witness the event, and you've ruined Tarquin's reputation permanently. Maybe she'll even roll her way down the palace stairs as Tarquin attempts to flee, in the manner of a certain archaeologist.

[F.Harr]

A lot of interesting ideas here. The one point I keep getting tripped up on is why Durkon specifically is needed. Here's my theory.

Elan's first concern is not having a totally awesome battle on the palace steps that'll make Tarquin look badass. And really, since Tarquin is a great warrior, any long, drawn-out battle with him improves his reputation. And he's smart enough to plan for and react to any logical method of taking him down - assassination attempts through ranged attacks or magical means - so attempting those will only make him look badass, as well.

An epic throne room battle between father and son while an evil empress looks on is exactly the climax that Tarquin desires. It's the perfect chance for Tarquin to go out big, maybe even with a few audience-endearing moments of redemption. So the only method of physically stopping him in a way that's publicly humiliating is cutting short the battle with a "hilarious anti-climax," as Belkar might say. Having Tarquin be collateral damage in the rampage of a high-level villain like Xykon is a possibility, but Elan's sense of humor isn't that dark. No, what's needed here is a good dose of physical comedy. What else would you expect from a bumbling sidekick? And what's the most iconic cartoon slapstick gag? Getting flattened by a falling object, especially a ridiculous one.

This is where Durkon comes in. Durkon's needed specifically because of his Stone Shape spell. The power behind the throne isn't Tarquin; it's something like reinforced concrete pylons. Break those, and you break the throne...because it's already stressed from the weight of a giant, confused red dragon. Getting comically flattened by a fat monster who's too dumb to know what's going on around her is a perfect humiliation. Find a way for the masses to witness the event, and you've ruined Tarquin's reputation permanently. Maybe she'll even roll her way down the palace stairs as Tarquin attempts to flee, in the manner of a certain archaeologist.

I LIKE it. But there's a chance that, when it's time to pull the pin on it, it'll be not the Empirous we're familiar with but a very pale young man who's a fruititarian who's in the Seat of Evil.

[Justin Time]

A lot of interesting ideas here. The one point I keep getting tripped up on is why Durkon specifically is needed. Here's my theory.

Elan's first concern is not having a totally awesome battle on the palace steps that'll make Tarquin look badass. And really, since Tarquin is a great warrior, any long, drawn-out battle with him improves his reputation. And he's smart enough to plan for and react to any logical method of taking him down - assassination attempts through ranged attacks or magical means - so attempting those will only make him look badass, as well.

An epic throne room battle between father and son while an evil empress looks on is exactly the climax that Tarquin desires. It's the perfect chance for Tarquin to go out big, maybe even with a few audience-endearing moments of redemption. So the only method of physically stopping him in a way that's publicly humiliating is cutting short the battle with a "hilarious anti-climax," as Belkar might say. Having Tarquin be collateral damage in the rampage of a high-level villain like Xykon is a possibility, but Elan's sense of humor isn't that dark. No, what's needed here is a good dose of physical comedy. What else would you expect from a bumbling sidekick? And what's the most iconic cartoon slapstick gag? Getting flattened by a falling object, especially a ridiculous one.

This is where Durkon comes in. Durkon's needed specifically because of his Stone Shape spell. The power behind the throne isn't Tarquin; it's something like reinforced concrete pylons. Break those, and you break the throne...because it's already stressed from the weight of a giant, confused red dragon. Getting comically flattened by a fat monster who's too dumb to know what's going on around her is a perfect humiliation. Find a way for the masses to witness the event, and you've ruined Tarquin's reputation permanently. Maybe she'll even roll her way down the palace stairs as Tarquin attempts to flee, in the manner of a certain archaeologist.

The problem with this is looking at what inspired Elan to have this plan to begin with. Roy is talking about it easier to find family among the people you choose rather than finding the good in the family you're born with (paraphrasing) when Elan figures out what he's going to do. Then when Roy asks if it's a way to beat Tarquin, Elan's response is "Yes! No! Sort of!" That does not sound like a lead up to a plan that straight up squishes Tarquin. Otherwise, I definitely like the idea, but don't think it's happening.

[secondwhiteline]

Yeah, that's the one part that gave me pause - the strip does seem to imply that Elan's getting his inspiration from something Roy said to him. But I just haven't been able to figure out a plan leading off of Roy's speech - the advice Roy gives hits at a personal, emotional level, and I'm not sure where Elan would be making the leap to overthrowing a tyrant.

[allenw]

Roy talks about finding a sense of family.
500 gp says that Elan's plan involves his Mom and/or Julio Scoundrel.

[Bharaeth]

Okay, my first post; what if his plan is something to do with his absent, but possibly important surname?

Could it be a sending or two, via Elan's Mom, to contact Tarquin's father, maybe known to Elan as a good alignment, and bring that whole father/son dynamic down on Tarquin, instead?

[ZMiles]

If it has to do with family... well, Elan knows that Tarquin left his actual family and then joined up with Team Tarquin. I'd guess that Elan's plan involves targeting that relationship. Some kind of scheme to turn them against each other. Genre-savvy villains like Tarquin often betray allies who outlive their uselessness, or at least have plans to do so -- so maybe Elan just needs to trick the other members into thinking Tarquin is about to ax them.

Furthermore, 'bickering council of villains' is a staple of lame Saturday morning cartoon villains, and genre-savvy Elan knows this. If Tarquin's collapse comes when his entire team breaks down and they all start killing each other, he doesn't look cool. He looks pathetic and stupid.

[ReaderAt2046]

Here's an idea: what if Elan isn't trying to defeat Tarquin personally, he's trying to destroy his empire. In other words, instead of attacking Tarquin, Elan wants to attack all the understucture of laws and soldiers and judges that a Lawful Evil empire requires? More specifically, if Elan used Durkon's Contact Other Planes or similar spells, he could have implemented the aid of gremlins from the planes of Elemental Chaos. Durkon is confused because he's lawful, so he con't understand what they were saying.

[Reddish Mage]

It is theoretically possible that someone on this board may guess it out of sheer luck. But none of the possibilities put forward so far look even vaguely plausible to me.

NZNinja's Shamalyan parody was probably the most entertaining though!

[Jay R]

We've already seen Elan's super secret awesome ultimate fantasy victory. His father re-marries his mother - which requires a cleric.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

Durkon is barely involved in the plan. Elan just needed him to cast sending a bunch of times to loads of people in that cave........ no idea who but this idea came to me and I wanted to hear what you guys thought.

[Psyren]

Durkon is barely involved in the plan. Elan just needed him to cast sending a bunch of times to loads of people in that cave........ no idea who but this idea came to me and I wanted to hear what you guys thought.

If Sending was all he needed, I think he would have said "I need Durkon or V" since they both know it. Whatever it was, it was likely something only Durkon could do.

[johnbragg]

If Sending was all he needed, I think he would have said "I need Durkon or V" since they both know it. Whatever it was, it was likely something only Durkon could do.

Oooh, I'm calling it. Feign death.. It's a bard/wizard/cleric spell, but there's no reason to believe that V or Elan would have learned the spell. (Necromancy is probably one of V's barred schools anyway).

What's the point of Elan feigning death? Because it wrecks Tarquin's plan. If Elan dies, Tarquin's whole legendary climax is shot. He screwed up one son and killed him, he abandoned another and killed that one too. That's not an attractive badass, that's not a "charming villain", etc.

Maybe Tarquin has an emotional catharsis breakthrough Oprah/Dr Phil type moment--he probably does in Elan's we-all-get-ice-cream plan.

Although I guarantee Durkon doesn't have feign death prepared--I'm pretty sure it's still the same day. But the idea may be for Durkon to put it on a scroll or a one-shot wondrous item to stash on Elan's body.

[Mike Havran]

There is a crazy chance that the Feign Death spell is on one of those stolen wands...although at this point, it might also work when casted on Roy. That way, Elan can swear bloody vengeance on Tarquin's head over his mentor's dead body and Tarquin will be content to leave them alone.

[Silverionmox]

Elan is going to ask Durkon to cast speak with dead to call up Eugene and/or Roy's mom, so he can be adopted. Roy will be his older brother and he will have no more ties to Tarquin.

[johnbragg]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html

:roy: ...maybe it's better to find that sense of family among people who are good than it is to find a sense of good inside your family. blah blah...
:elan: THAT'S IT!...I just had a totally awesome idea!
:roy: For defeating your father?
:elan: Yes! No! Sort of! It's perfect!

That would be an excellent description of a plan to feign death[i] in battle with Tarquin, A) ruining Tarquin's plan to be the legendary villain in his son's tale, and B) showing Tarquin the error of his ways.

Remember, this plan is conceived before Elan's moment of insight in Girard's pyramid, and before Tarquin kills Nale in cold blood.

And I'm still not sure how Elan gets his hands on a [i]feign death scroll or item....

[F.Harr]

What if Elan marries Haley and takes her name?

[Sloanzilla]

does Elan have a ring of regeneration or not? He didn't take it, correct?

[martianmister]

Apparently, his secret plan was calling Julio for help after all. :smallconfused:

[Porthos]

Roy talks about finding a sense of family.
500 gp says that Elan's plan involves his Mom and/or Julio Scoundrel.

Someone collects 500gp apparently. :smallwink:

And from further back in the thread:



I'm fuzzy on a few details, but I've got a theory... It could be bunnies...

Premises:
This whole arc has been about families, and specifically fatherhood.
Elan's surrogate father figure is Julio Scoundrel.
Tarquin's good-ish opposite is Julio Scoundrel.
Tarquin is a devotee of "good plotting."
Julio Scoundrel's airship is called the "Mechane," and appeared in the recent Summer Beach wallpaper.
Elan's plan was inspired by Roy's speech about "finding that sense of family among people who are good."
Julio Scoundrel has a *lot* of children (and a specific address to send paternity claims to).

Hypothesis:
Elan's plan involved Durkon using Sending to submit a paternity suit (or perhaps even an adoption request) to Julio Scoundrel. Julio will show up, and Tarquin will be defeated by a "Deus ex Mechane" (and hate it).
Extra points if he gets squished (flumph-style) by an actual giant idol of a deity, stolen by Julio and heaved over the side of the Mechane.

Edited to add:

Counterargument:
Julio expressly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) that he sincererly hoped he and Elan never crossed paths again, since "the most likely scenario is that I'd return only to be randomly killed by an enemy of yours so that you can cradle my dying body while swearing revenge."

But:
If Tarquin did kill Julio, it would be far from random. Plus, the best way to defeat Tarquin would be while proving that such trope-prophecy can be foiled or subverted.
Kind of hard to express this all in a 25-word Sending, though. :smallannoyed:
So not quite, but close. :smallsmile:

[exenia]

So... Who's going to double down and bet that Scoundrel IS Elan's mom? Anyone? Anyone? Aww...