Sorcerers, Beauty = Total Arcane Power

[Warden Zhir]

Okay, I'm sure everyone has wondered this, but I haven't ever gotten an explanation of this myself.

How do Sorcerers use Charisma to cast spells?

Sorcerers are suppose to be scions of magical beings: when that dragon said to your sorcerer character "I banged your Mom last night" he was being serious; or a succubus suddenly teleports in to kill you, when she notices your father and erotically says "Hey baby" before draining your levels.

So Sorcerers are suppose to be naturally gifted with magic, but how does that actually relate to charisma? Is Beauty/Personality = Power?

[Tengu_temp]

DND just assumes charisma is related to your natural, not learned magic affinity for some reason.

Also, charisma is not beauty or sexiness. Both of those can be elements of charisma, but force of personality is much more important. Churchill was an extremely charismatic individual, and I wouldn't describe him as either pretty or sexy.

[The Rose Dragon]

They don't. They usually use Wits, or Intelligence, or Perception. Charisma and Appearance rarely get into it.

[BRC]

Beauty changes between cultures and times, Charisma is universal.
Charisma does not mean Beauty, however Beauty can lead to charisma. An attractive individual may grow up to be more confident, and confidence is a key component of Charisma, but its not a rule, and there can be plenty of unnatractive people with very high charisma.

[kamikasei]

It's not actually true that sorcerers are "scions of magical beings". The 3.5 PHB just says that some sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons, and that this may even be true in some cases. The 4e PHB2 also offers other explanations.

And charisma is not the same thing as beauty. It's primarily force of personality and the ability to sway others to your will. Sorcerers are essentially imposing their will on the world directly.

[Tengu_temp]

They don't. They usually use Wits, or Intelligence, or Perception. Charisma and Appearance rarely get into it.

I see what you did there.

[Azreal]

It's not actually true that sorcerers are "scions of magical beings". The 3.5 PHB just says that some sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons, and that this may even be true in some cases. The 4e PHB2 also offers other explanations.

I would like to say that they are definitely inherently magical.
Wizards use intellect to use magic.
Sorcerers use their force of will to cause magic. It's part of who they are. To take magic from a sorcerer is to take a voice from a bard, beards from dwarves, or adaptability from humans. It's a core part of their make up.

[kamikasei]

I would like to say that they are definitely inherently magical.
Which is not the same thing as being descended from a magical being, which is what I said. The 4e PHB2 offers four example sources for sorcerous power and only one of them involves inheritance. "Sorcerers are dragon-blooded" is like "warlocks sold their souls to devils", an elevation of one suggested possibility as the "genuine" explanation for every instance. Both might be true in individual cases, but are not general rules.

[Winds]

Charisma as a spellcasting stat is given as the character's strength of personality, used to cajole or force the forces of magic to do what they need. At least, as far as I recall.

[SimonMoon6]

Charisma as a spellcasting stat is given as the character's strength of personality, used to cajole or force the forces of magic to do what they need. At least, as far as I recall.

Yes, this. A sorcerer uses his force of personality to demand that reality reshape itself the way the sorcerer desires. A sorcerer commands the spirits of air and fire by being such a bad-butt (bad-donkey?) that they have no choice but to listen to what the sorcerer has to say.

Now, occasionally a magical source will alter someone's appearance in a way that also alters their charisma. Just assume that becoming more attractive gives the person more confidence and more confidence equals more charisma.

[Techsmart]

And charisma is not the same thing as beauty. It's primarily force of personality and the ability to sway others to your will. Sorcerers are essentially imposing their will on the world directly.

pretty much this.your charisma allows your character to tell reality what to do and force it to listen. High charisma characters of a given race may tend to be more beautiful, but it is not necessary. For example. Look at the lich. High charisma - usually very ugly.

[Prime32]

Sorcerers run on shonen anime logic. You know how in Bleach it normally takes centuries of study for shinigami to master their powers, but the protagonist does it in a few days because he has "resolve"? It's like that.

Complete with an obligation to shout the names of your attacks as you use them. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

pretty much this.your charisma allows your character to tell reality what to do and force it to listen. High charisma characters of a given race may tend to be more beautiful, but it is not necessary. For example. Look at the lich. High charisma - usually very ugly.

Thirding this.

Sorcerer lich's cha is powered by badassitude, like a Balor.

[Segev]

As others have said, Charisma is force of personality, ability to impose your will upon the world through your presence/persuasion/desirability/whatever-it-is.

Viewed as a "magic stat," it's generally outward-facing will that's being referenced.


However, consider Snow White and the Huntsman's wicked queen. Remember the source of her magic?

[Psyren]

Which is not the same thing as being descended from a magical being, which is what I said. The 4e PHB2 offers four example sources for sorcerous power and only one of them involves inheritance. "Sorcerers are dragon-blooded" is like "warlocks sold their souls to devils", an elevation of one suggested possibility as the "genuine" explanation for every instance. Both might be true in individual cases, but are not general rules.

Yep - in fact, in Pathfinder, converting sorcerers from 3.5 gives them the Arcane Bloodline by default instead of the Draconic one. And Arcane is general enough that it could really have come from anything.


pretty much this.your charisma allows your character to tell reality what to do and force it to listen. High charisma characters of a given race may tend to be more beautiful, but it is not necessary. For example. Look at the lich. High charisma - usually very ugly.

Also Phaerimms, the most powerful racial sorcerers in FR history, are not much to look at.

[Eurus]

D&D has been notoriously inconsistent on the subject of Charisma and beauty. I think the official stance is something like "it's totally not, unless it is. "

Tieflings get a cha penalty because they unsettle other races, or something. Nymphs are exemplars of charisma, and it ain't for their forceful personalities. Charisma is also specifically not related to willpower. Personally, I think it makes the most sense as"the ability to get other people to do what you want". This apparently includes the abstract forces of magic.

[Captnq]

Int-Based Magic: After years of study, I now know the unpinnings of reality.
Wis-Based Magic: It's all about relationships and knowing the best course of action.
Cha-Based Magic: I slap magic around until it does what I want.

[Chronos]

Personally, I prefer to think of wizards and sorcerers doing the exact same things when they cast spells (hence why they use the same spell list), but while a wizard must calculate out the precise gestures and sounds needed (which are subtly different every time a spell is cast, hence why each preparation is only good for one), the sorcerer makes those same gestures and sounds instinctively. There's no way any mortal can contain enough raw magical energy to "slap magic around until it does what you want"; they all need to use leverage of some sort. Sorcerers (and for that matter, divine casters) just use a different sort of leverage than wizards.

[The Viscount]

D&D has been notoriously inconsistent on the subject of Charisma and beauty. I think the official stance is something like "it's totally not, unless it is. "

Tieflings get a cha penalty because they unsettle other races, or something. Nymphs are exemplars of charisma, and it ain't for their forceful personalities. Charisma is also specifically not related to willpower. Personally, I think it makes the most sense as"the ability to get other people to do what you want". This apparently includes the abstract forces of magic.

This. Enormously this. I place blame mostly on Undead having things based on Cha instead of Con. Seems to me they could have used Wis instead. Flensing serves as another example where Cha seems at least partially bound to physical appearance, but it is force of personality and guile more than it is looks

[Psyren]

Personally, I prefer to think of wizards and sorcerers doing the exact same things when they cast spells (hence why they use the same spell list), but while a wizard must calculate out the precise gestures and sounds needed (which are subtly different every time a spell is cast, hence why each preparation is only good for one), the sorcerer makes those same gestures and sounds instinctively. There's no way any mortal can contain enough raw magical energy to "slap magic around until it does what you want"; they all need to use leverage of some sort. Sorcerers (and for that matter, divine casters) just use a different sort of leverage than wizards.

I look at it this way - a full spell is a very complex and involved process, and each caster has to put in various amounts of work to cast them successfully.

Wizards/Archivists - they are working off formulas and so have to put the full amount of work into each one, which requires a lot of "precasting" every morning during the preparation process - hence it taking an hour. The 15 minute minimum is required to achieve the desired mental state for "precasting."

Sorcerers/Bards - Though they are casting arcane spells like Wizards do, their magical blood and force of personality lets them "fool the universe" into thinking they put in the required amount of preparation even when they didn't. Thus, their "preparation time" is always equal to the wizard's 15-minute minimum.

Divine Casters are similar to Wizards above, but must prepare litanies or other recitations rather than following formulae during their precasting window.

[Tvtyrant]

Personally, I prefer to think of wizards and sorcerers doing the exact same things when they cast spells (hence why they use the same spell list), but while a wizard must calculate out the precise gestures and sounds needed (which are subtly different every time a spell is cast, hence why each preparation is only good for one), the sorcerer makes those same gestures and sounds instinctively. There's no way any mortal can contain enough raw magical energy to "slap magic around until it does what you want"; they all need to use leverage of some sort. Sorcerers (and for that matter, divine casters) just use a different sort of leverage than wizards.

Yeah, in my latest setting all wizards, duskblades, etc. are simply trained Sorcerers. Sorcerer refers to instinct, and training subjugates the instinct to the intellect.

[Zubrowka74]

The thing is, willpower and instinct are both keyed to wisdom.

Charisma is force of personnality, magnetism, leadership. It's what draws other to like them. It's kind of fuzzy, I'll admit it. PF is clearer in defining it as a power of the blood. Why is that link to CHA is just because the didn't want to key it off to CON.

[Tiktik Ironclaw]

Thirding this.

Sorcerer lich's cha is powered by badassitude, like a Balor.

Dude, you have found the replacement for 'Like a boss'. Like a Balor. :smallcool: Also, what everyone else said.

[Krobar]

1) it's really the strength and force of your personality, and 2) Intelligence was already taken by Wizards, and Wisdom by Clerics. You could argue that Charisma was taken by Bards, but Bards are not a full casting class. And it wouldn't make sense to base spellcasting on Strength, Constitution or Dexterity, so that just leaves charisma.

[Flickerdart]

1) it's really the strength and force of your personality, and 2) Intelligence was already taken by Wizards, and Wisdom by Clerics. You could argue that Charisma was taken by Bards, but Bards are not a full casting class. And it wouldn't make sense to base spellcasting on Strength, Constitution or Dexterity, so that just leaves charisma.
Bards and Sorcerers cast in the same way. They just go "hey universe, there's a distinct lack of explosions around me" and wag their chiseled jaw and the universe caves in.

[Mystral]

I want you to open up your Monster Manual at L and look at the Liche.

Now, note that Liches Charisma score.

Charisma is not Beauty, Charisma is Force of Personality. Sorcerers don't use beauty to cast spells, they use their own sheer self confidence.

[Talya]

And charisma is not the same thing as beauty. It's primarily force of personality and the ability to sway others to your will. Sorcerers are essentially imposing their will on the world directly.


The mental attributes all have analogs in the physical ones.

Intelligence is mental Dexterity - the ability to manipulate facts and numbers and finesse your way to a conclusion. Wizards use this to gently coax the laws of physics to look the other way while they violate them.

Wisdom is mental Constitution - it's hardiness, toughness of mind, the ability to endure and withstand. Priestly types are required to be able to handle the majestic glory of the divine that is being granted to them.

Charisma is mental Strength - Force of Personality allows you to, with nothing more than personal magnetism and sheer strength of character, force people, or even the laws of nature, to do whatever the hell you want them to.

[skyth]

I like how in 3.x, Charisma is a measure of self-confidence rather than appearance. It makes sorcerers and paladins make sense with that.

[Segev]

Charisma is "Mental Strength," as Intelligence is "Mental Dex" and Wisdom is "Mental Constitution."

The charisma-based caster is flexing his mental muscles and gripping the underpinnings of the universe to move them into his design, much the way a fighter does to the goblins with whom he grapples.

[EvilJames]

Beauty =/= charisma. Beautiful people are often charismatic, but not all charismatic people are beautiful.

[Talya]

Charisma is "Mental Strength," as Intelligence is "Mental Dex" and Wisdom is "Mental Constitution."

The charisma-based caster is flexing his mental muscles and gripping the underpinnings of the universe to move them into his design, much the way a fighter does to the goblins with whom he grapples.

Ph33r my 1337 swordsage skillz!

Or something. :)

[Segev]

Well, Swordsages are Wis and Dex based. They're kind-of the Wizard of the ToB classes (fitting for using "physical Int"), and rely on mental toughness almost more than physical for their ability to stick with it (make their relevant skill checks). At least, I think it's Swordsages that get Wis as their mental stat of choice for various class abilities and the skills most commonly called upon by their signature maneuvers.


Warblades, interestingly, draw on "mental Dex" and physical Strength.

[Mystral]

The mental attributes all have analogs in the physical ones.

Intelligence is mental Dexterity - the ability to manipulate facts and numbers and finesse your way to a conclusion. Wizards use this to gently coax the laws of physics to look the other way while they violate them.

Wisdom is mental Constitution - it's hardiness, toughness of mind, the ability to endure and withstand. Priestly types are required to be able to handle the majestic glory of the divine that is being granted to them.

Charisma is mental Strength - Force of Personality allows you to, with nothing more than personal magnetism and sheer strength of character, force people, or even the laws of nature, to do whatever the hell you want them to.

Indeed, Intelligence is Mental Strength, Wisdom is Mental Dexterty and Charisma is mental constitution.

How I know that? Well, those are the way the mental attributes replace the physical ones in the astral plane. :P

[Segev]

Indeed, Intelligence is Mental Strength, Wisdom is Mental Dexterty and Charisma is mental constitution.

How I know that? Well, those are the way the mental attributes replace the physical ones in the astral plane. :P

Yay inconsistency! (No, really, it's not consistent in various places where these things are swapped.)

[Mystral]

Charisma also is the undeads hitpoint source in Pathfinder, if that counts for something. And there is also an undead quality in the libris mortis that does that.

[Ravens_cry]

Charisma also is the undeads hitpoint source in Pathfinder, if that counts for something. And there is also an undead quality in the libris mortis that does that.
Their force of personality helps tie them to to this world.
Makes more sense than some things in D&D.

[Scow2]

Well, Swordsages are Wis and Dex based. They're kind-of the Wizard of the ToB classes (fitting for using "physical Int"), and rely on mental toughness almost more than physical for their ability to stick with it (make their relevant skill checks). At least, I think it's Swordsages that get Wis as their mental stat of choice for various class abilities and the skills most commonly called upon by their signature maneuvers.


Warblades, interestingly, draw on "mental Dex" and physical Strength.Yeah... I wish Swordsages, Crusaders, and Warblades had their mental attribute dependency rotated, so that Crusaders were WIS, Swordsages were INT, and Warblades were CHA. Unfortunately, Swordsages decided to have Monk tacked onto them (And probably to avoid Attribute to AC stacking issues in the case of an UltraMAD Monk/Swordsage - but why couldn't the Swordsage be closer to the Duelist in this regard?)

My opinion on how Charisma = beauty: It's not that Beautiful people are Charismatic. Instead, Charismatic people set what people consider beautiful.

Charisma also is the undeads hitpoint source in Pathfinder, if that counts for something. And there is also an undead quality in the libris mortis that does that.Well, Pathfinder is stupid, and 3.5 made a mis-step in removing Undead Constitution.

[Drake2009]

They don't. They usually use Wits, or Intelligence, or Perception. Charisma and Appearance rarely get into it.

so they dont use charisma for casting....but they are a charisma based caster..... makes sense!

[Psyren]

Charisma also is the undeads hitpoint source in Pathfinder, if that counts for something. And there is also an undead quality in the libris mortis that does that.

Note that PF also reduced undead hit dice to d8s, so their actual HP didn't change a whole lot from this.

[Nerd-o-rama]

so they dont use charisma for casting....but they are a charisma based caster..... makes sense!

Your head is about here.

The joke is somewhere up in the site banner around where it says "forum".

[Chronos]

And really, the D&D rules have never said that charisma was the same thing as physical attractiveness, anyway. They've always said that they're related, and that physical attractiveness is one component of charisma, but it's always just been one component.

[JusticeZero]

Plus, it can be other ways. I had a character once, some sort of monk or some such, with lots of strength and other physical stuff with a dumpy Charisma. As I recall, the way I described him was along the lines of "blah blah chiseled abs blah golden hair blah.." of lots of physical attributes that would make him very attractive... But then he opens his mouth, and he was was wishy washy whiner with an annoying voice.

[Keneth]

http://shrani.si/f/2y/13e/4OHKRprH/atropal.jpg
Cha 42

'nuff said

[Raven777]

Note that PF also reduced undead hit dice to d8s, so their actual HP didn't change a whole lot from this.

One note though. Pathfinder Vampire Sorcerer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=552805). The most destructive force in the multiverse.

[geekintheground]

Sorcerers run on shonen anime logic. You know how in Bleach it normally takes centuries of study for shinigami to master their powers, but the protagonist does it in a few days because he has "resolve"? It's like that.

Complete with an obligation to shout the names of your attacks as you use them. :smalltongue:

gonna have to play this some day XD

[Hytheter]

Honestly if you don't shout attack names when playing sorcerer, you're playing sorcerer wrong.

MAGIC MISSILE!

[Azreal]

Which is not the same thing as being descended from a magical being, which is what I said. The 4e PHB2 offers four example sources for sorcerous power and only one of them involves inheritance. "Sorcerers are dragon-blooded" is like "warlocks sold their souls to devils", an elevation of one suggested possibility as the "genuine" explanation for every instance. Both might be true in individual cases, but are not general rules.

In PF I think they have the best reason for Sorcerers. It's in your blood, perhaps from a dragon ancestor, or there's a demon or an angel. Contract with a devil, there's so many things it can pass from that its truly amazing. Lol

[Snowbluff]

Cha 42

'nuff said
What, you don't find Atropal attractive?

[T-Mick]

Charism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charism)

Basically, a supernatural gift. A power that isn't learned, it just comes naturally. This is the idea behind charisma casting.