Roy will handle this. Easyly. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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homeosapiens

2013-09-03, 10:13 AM

I mean he is the hero, and what kind of hero would he be dying to Tarquins mooks? Nah. That's pretty much a no go.

Escaping into the rift doesnt seem as viable as people would think - after all they have no idea what is in there and how to get out of it. It might be a one way ticket for all they know, and Roy won't make that call.

This is where Roy's Diplomacy and strategy comes along. He' ll shout to Tarquin that he accept his position as his underling. Tarquin will not go back on his word, and sees that while Roy is on his payroll <in theory> Elan is going to be the hero because Roy will be just a hired goon then.

Makes sense?

Klear

2013-09-03, 10:27 AM

This is where Roy's Diplomacy and strategy comes along. He' ll shout to Tarquin that he accept his position as his underling. Tarquin will not go back on his word, and sees that while Roy is on his payroll <in theory> Elan is going to be the hero because Roy will be just a hired goon then.

Makes sense?

I'm not sure Tarquin has any chance of hearing him over the sound of the arrows and a rushing army.

pendell

2013-09-03, 10:35 AM

This is where Roy's Diplomacy and strategy comes along. He' ll shout to Tarquin that he accept his position as his underling.

Tarquin has made no such offer. Roy is ALREADY in his employ, but Tarquin has no problem with cutting his overhead if it serves his goal, which in this case is to motivate Elan into becoming a hero rather than a supporting character.

There is nothing Roy can say that will change Tarquin's view of him as an obstacle to his son's emergence as a hero.

Tarquin will not go back on his word,

While Tarquin will fulfill the letter of any contract or promise he makes, it is unlikely he will fulfill the spirit of any agreement not in his own self-interest. Remember the bounty hunters who had their deal altered.

and sees that while Roy is on his payroll <in theory> Elan is going to be the hero because Roy will be just a hired goon then.

Tarquin attaches barely more worth to the life of a henchman than he does to the life of an ant he might accidentally step on. In the world of Tarquin, this is the hierarchy of importance:

1) Tarquin
2) Tarquin's family.
3) Tarquin's adventuring party.
4) Everyone else.

So I don't believe this is in any way probable. However the Order gets out of this one , it will not be due to Roy using diplomacy to persuade Tarquin to call off the legion.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

AKA_Bait

2013-09-03, 10:36 AM

Actually, I'm more inclined to think that Roy, Vampire Durkon, and Belkar can handle being attacked by the army of Mooks without too much problem just on a combat analysis. Let's not forget how effective a lower level Belkar was alone against a horde of mooks.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

That is, unless Team Tarquin itself gets involved, or the mooks are much higher level than one would expect.

homeosapiens

2013-09-03, 10:49 AM

I think they can't beat those mooks without healing, and we dont know if they have any more potions. Also belkar might be still drained.

Maybe they can beat up 300? 500? Not couple thousand with dinosaurs and everything. Not when Durkon might not be able to cast heal or CSW's.

Throught of that i am not sure of - to me is seems that he started with full spells after becoming vampire <still, no evidence>.

AKA_Bait

2013-09-03, 10:54 AM

I'm not sure I agree with your tactical assessment. All of the mooks except the dino riders probably can only even hit the party on a natural 20.

This is putting aside Durkon's refilled spell list. At a minimum, he could plane shift all of them away. There are also mass area affect spells he could use that would kill large numbers of the approaching horde in one go. Now that he's casting 'evil' descriptor spells, his options for that sort of thing also widen considerably.

Nilan8888

2013-09-03, 10:56 AM

I'm thinking they could take out a bunch, but V would want to be showing up at some point and teleport them out of there. Assuming the IFCC lets him go.

Luckily enough, I'm not sure there's any reason for the IFCC to keep holding onto him. Their goal has been accomplished... I think.

AKA_Bait

2013-09-03, 10:59 AM

I'm thinking they could take out a bunch, but V would want to be showing up at some point and teleport them out of there. Assuming the IFCC lets him go.

We have no clue where V's body is, and the odds are good that its buried in the rubble, even if the IFCC lets shim go. That said, V can't cast teleport even if they do.

Nilan8888

2013-09-03, 11:11 AM

Well then I'm not sure how they'd get out of it then. I really don't seem the 3 of them taking on AN ENTIRE ARMY and surviving. I don't recall where it said that V can't cast teleport now, is that because of the Canyon? And there really aren't a lot of people that would be interested in helping them other than V, assuming they were available:

1. V (supposedly incapable, though I'm not so sure)
2. Celia (who would do what, exactly?)
3. Azure City Paladins (they'd help, but how in the world they'd be able to, I don't know)
4. IFCC itself (hey, they want the order to keep progressing, right? Sabine helps, maybe? That's a really big maybe)
5. Gannji and Enor (Why in the world would they care?)
6. Greysky city thieves (they'd just send an army to help Tarquin)
7. Team Evil (...yeah, right...)
8. Zombie Miko?

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-03, 11:15 AM

I don't recall where it said that V can't cast teleport now, is that because of the Canyon?
V has never been able to cast teleport out of her own spell slots and will never be able to cast teleport out of her own spell slots. Teleport and its cousins are Conjuration spells, and V at the beginning of her career in wizardry chose to bar herself from ever learning spells from the school of Conjuration magic. The only ways she'd be able to cast teleport are either by using wish or limited wish to emulate the spell (which the Giant will never write because giving V those spells would introduce uncomfortable questions about why she doesn't use them more often) or by accepting another Soul Splice to use someone else's spell slots (which she won't do; as someone else said in another thread, once burned, twice shy).

MesiDoomstalker

2013-09-03, 11:34 AM

Taelas

2013-09-03, 11:40 AM

ITYM righteous might. :smallwink:

Though I am increasingly thinking the dwarf'll call it "Durkon's Might" from now on.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-03, 11:41 AM

ITYM righteous might. :smallwink:

Though I am increasingly thinking the dwarf'll call it "Durkon's Might" from now on.
As long as he doesn't call it Sinestro's might.

Taelas

2013-09-03, 11:42 AM

BaronOfHell

2013-09-03, 11:45 AM

I'm wondering how will Belkar survive this, and if he won't will Durkon res him? I mean the order seems like they can use all the help they can get.
I even wonder if Roy would have been inclined to accept Tarquin's help had he gotten the offer like he's willingly to accept the help of Belkar and Durkula.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-03, 11:46 AM

Ian might have found rebel assistance and could conceivably lead them to the Order's aid.
There are no rebels. There are only Tarquin's patsies-in-waiting.

Nilan8888

2013-09-03, 11:48 AM

Ian might have found rebel assistance and could conceivably lead them to the Order's aid.

A 9th possibility, but does he even know where they are? And would he really have put something together so quickly? I think it's only been a day or two since they last saw him.

War-Wren

2013-09-03, 11:53 AM

We have no clue where V's body is, and the odds are good that its buried in the rubble, even if the IFCC lets shim go. That said, V can't cast teleport even if they do.

Given the pre-blast position, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html) V's body is lying underneath (or very close to) the rift.

They were in the bell shaped chamber below the gate room before the IFCC dragged them below so, unless the explosion has shifted their position, both V and Blackwing should still be there. And there's very little rubble above the area of the rift. Might be easy enough to blast hir way out - that's assuming the IFCC left them go anytime soon, of course!

Shred-Bot

2013-09-03, 11:53 AM

Further more, I don't think we have any indication Durkon got his spells refreshed on vamping. The only spells he's cast after Vamping was Greater Planar Ally (which he had prepped before), and a Spontaneously converted Inflict Spell. He should still be low on spells but now he's out in the open, Unholy Might would be a great spell to cast.

I agree, "Giant Vampire Dwarf with a Hammer Stick" is something I'm looking forward to. Though I think he'll call the spell Hel's Might, in honor of (who I am hoping is) his new patron deity.

And yeah, if he had refreshed spells, he'd have had a Heal lying around for Roy most likely rather than a messed up spontaneous conversion. (Heal can't be done spontaneously like the Cure X Wounds spells, right?)

War-Wren

2013-09-03, 11:56 AM

And yeah, if he had refreshed spells, he'd have had a Heal lying around for Roy most likely rather than a messed up spontaneous conversion. (Heal can't be done spontaneously like the Cure X Wounds spells, right?)

Correct (at least from the last time I played a Cleric in D&D!)

Also I think I saw somewhere that The Giant has already stated the Durkula has not refreshed and it running on whatever he had left when he was vamped (can't point to that thread but I'm sure I've read that recently...)

Nilan8888

2013-09-03, 12:16 PM

Wait a second, I just realized...

they can just jump through the... portal...

Holy crap! What an ending that would be to the book!

Ramien

2013-09-03, 12:33 PM

How would V even know what's going on? Sabine broke the IFCC's screen, so unless they have a backup ready, there's a gap in their knowledge right now.

Right now the best bet is looking like a blind leap into the rift. Roy can easily justify that choice: it's probably better than being dead, and best case, maybe they can find a way to stop Xykon from the other side of the gate.

There's too many mooks to realistically handle - I doubt Roy's at full health, we know Belkar isn't, and Tarquin's brought enough archers that a few hits will get through each round just based on law of averages. Durkon will fare better with his damage resistance from being vamped, but that will delay the inevitable, even if it just brings in one of Tarquin's old party to finish him.

There is one other solution that came to mind, but it will depend on Durkon and how much he's actually changed. Tarquin knows he's a vampire, and knows he's Malack's spawn. Durkon's already had one offer of new employment. What are the chances he can bluff his way into defecting and taking the others prisoner (not high, I'll admit, but it would show just how much he's been changed)?

My money's still on the gate, though. We've been getting enough reveals that something's on the other side of it, and it'll need to be explored sometime.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-03, 12:36 PM

I posted a few thoughts on how Durkon, the Barbed Devil, Roy and Belkar might not only survive, but turn the tables on Tarquin, in the main thread.

Here was my analysis of how it might go down:

That's a possibility. Maybe Tarquin's trying to force Elan to grow up and be a hero, not by killing Roy, Belkar and Durkon, but by threatening them. Maybe Tarquin is savvy enough to know that most of those bolts won't hit Durkon (his AC is throught he roof) and even if they do, Durkon's DR will shrug it off. (Vampires have DR 10/Silver + Magic, and I doubt Tarquin is issuing alchemical silver bolts and magical crossbows to every single archer in this platoon.) The Barbed Devil has an AC of 29, and DR 10/ Good, which means Tarquin would need to pass out Oil of Bless Weapon to his troops(which can only be crafted by a Paladin) or Oil of Align Weapon (Good) (which can only be crafted by a Good Aligned caster).

As for Roy and Belkar, they've been shown to have good ACs in the past, and if they both take the Total Defense action (a standard action) they get a +4 dodge bonus to AC. If they take Total defense, they can start climbing out of the pit (or jump out in Belkar's case) and get to cover or close to melee with the archers. Crossbows take actions to reload (though there is a feat that reduces the time) and provokes an attack of opportunity. (Though characters taking Total Defense can't make attacks of opportunity.)

Depending on which spells Durkon has left, he might prefer to transform into mist or into a bat, and fly out of the pit, then Dominate one or two archers. He might also order the Barbed Devil to teleport next to Laurin or Miron and begin a grapple next round. Haley could decide to test out her new wands, hoping to get Fireball or protection from normal arrow. If Durkon is really low on spells, he'll could close with Laurin or Miron (the one the Barbed Devil isn't grappling) and slam them to drain energy. Roy might engage with Tarquin, if he can get close enough.

Basically, if Durkon fights as viciously as he did in the battle with Nale and Z, and he orders the Barbed Devil to target Laurin or Miron (Psion and spellcaster), Roy could have a shot at going after Tarquin.

The main problem is how will Belkar and Mr. Scruffy survive. Maybe they can hide in the Demon Roachs' fridge? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) :smallbiggrin:

Chosen

2013-09-03, 01:45 PM

Honestly the situation is not as bad as it could seem. Like others Have said unless those soldiers have magical silver good aligned crossbow bolts durkon and his devil have little to fear from them (DR plus lots of HP plus high AC). Roy is the "classic" fighter build that I have seen many times (invested heavily in the Power attack and Weapon Focus trees) which excels in two situations and being swarmed in melee by lots of scrubs is one of those situations. The only one down there that is in any immediate trouble would be belkar due to his con score being only 1 and having little to no HP.

Also if durkon did just invest that heavily in planar ally spells with his spell slots he can always start spontaneously switching to the mass inflict _____ wounds spells which will cut strait through all the scrubs. If the archers are an issue he just cast it centered right in the middle of their formation and cut them apart.

Edit: Also there is a high level, fully armed rogue within 30ft of squishy casters who are "past their prime" and have classes with d4 HD. For those less familiar with DND older individuals have lower physical stats than younger ones which also means lower HP.

Guancyto

2013-09-03, 02:00 PM

Giant horde of mooks?

Roy's boobies will take care of it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html)

(Now if only he had Supreme Cleave, he could clean them up in one round.)

BenjCano

2013-09-03, 02:38 PM

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-03, 02:49 PM

Let us not forget that you have both Miron and Laurin up there on the ridge. Frankly, I'd love to see them get involved in a fight against the Order, mostly because they've shown up and not done all that much since coming on stage.

Miron hasn't done much, that lazy good-for-nothing... but Laurin? She transported an army, read Nale's mind to confirm he killed Malack, and disintegrated Nale's corpse. All with plenty of Power Points left to spend. Though I doubt she still has her Psionic Focus; hearing about Malack's death has shaken her Concentration quite a bit. :smallwink:

rgrekejin

2013-09-03, 02:50 PM

SowZ

2013-09-03, 02:57 PM

Assuming the Archers aren't mid leveled, don't have precise shot, and don't use the voley rules, only 1 in 20 attacks will hurt Belkar or Roy and only 1 in 550 arrows will hurt the Barbed. Being immune to crits, Durkon is pretty much untouchable. As for melee, maybe the warriors have a +6 to hit if they are dang good Mooks. With flanking? They could maybe hit Roy 10% of the time and Belkar 25% if I ballpark what their ACs should be. The Barbed and Durkon will only take damage on critical hits.

Belkar may get hit once or twice a round by melee dudes and Roy will probably get hit 2/3 rounds or so. Then arrows will do some damage. Point is, The Order will eventually die from this. Save Durkon, that is, but the dinos can probably hit him for damage on a decent damage roll. So even he will drop. But it might not be quite as awful as it looks. I'd give Roy and friends a good 10 rounds before they are toast. (This is, of course, not only rules pedantry but rules pedantry based on a LOT of assumptions, so it is largely irrelevant.)

Anyway, TLDR; they can't win this fight. But they probably aren't going to be dead in 30 seconds, either. They should have time to enact an escape strategy.

The Pilgrim

2013-09-03, 03:06 PM

Roy really needs to start thinking in terms of Dramatic Conventions if he wants to off Tarquin.

For example, he could shout out and challenge Tarquin to personal combat. Tarquin will accept because, as a duel between the main villiain and the heroe's mentor figure, he is guaranteed to succeed. And killing the mentor in personal combat before the Hero provides a better story that just letting an army of mooks swarm over him. Roy would then proceed to slaugher Tarquin, as he is the main hero fighting a side villiain.

Geordnet

2013-09-03, 03:34 PM

I'm not sure I agree with your tactical assessment. All of the mooks except the dino riders probably can only even hit the party on a natural 20.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.png "Statistically, that still means that one in every twenty attacks is still hurting you."

Durkon might be an exception to this rule because of his DR, but I cannot believe that Tarquin doesn't have a backup plan fir that eventuality. Either way, it's of little comfort to Roy and Belkar.

I'm wondering how will Belkar survive this
The same way Roy does, most likely. :smalltongue:

Wait a second, I just realized...

they can just jump through the... portal...

Holy crap! What an ending that would be to the book!
Indeed, that ending is looking increasingly more likely. :smallbiggrin:

The only thing though is that they'll need a boat, or else Durkula will be dusted due to submergence in 'running' water.

AKA_Bait

2013-09-03, 03:47 PM

The only thing though is that they'll need a boat, or else Durkula will be dusted due to submergence in 'running' water.

Couldn't he go gaseous and float over the water in mist form?

Dr.Epic

2013-09-03, 03:56 PM

He' ll shout to Tarquin that he accept his position as his underling.

Why would a LG person agree to work for a tyrant that frequently uses people, frequently kills the people he uses, and plans to keep an entire continent in a bloody war that kills thousands all so he can secretly remain in power?:smallconfused:

denthor

2013-09-03, 04:13 PM

unlimited weak willed gaze attack. They turn on each other

Will not happen but fun to think about

Emanick

2013-09-03, 04:14 PM

Why would a LG person agree to work for a tyrant that frequently uses people, frequently kills the people he uses, and plans to keep an entire continent in a bloody war that kills thousands all so he can secretly remain in power?:smallconfused:

Presumably he would desert at the first opportunity, probably within hours of accepting the job. Accepting a job as the stooge of a bloodthirsty killer and remaining in that position for less than a day is arguably better than dying.

LasVegasLawyer

2013-09-03, 04:14 PM

I'm not sure I agree with your tactical assessment. All of the mooks except the dino riders probably can only even hit the party on a natural 20.

Statistically, that means one out of every twenty attacks is still hurting them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html).

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-03, 04:25 PM

Statistically, that means one out of every twenty attacks is still hurting them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html).

Doesn't it actually mean that statistically only one out of every twenty attacks has a chance of hitting them? I've been playing (A)D&D since 1991, and if there's one thing I've seen more of at the game table than anything else, it's the Gambler's Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_Fallacy). If every die roll is truly independent of every other one, then the chances of rolling a 20 on a d20 are 1 in 20 for each die roll. Likewise the chance of rolling a 1 on a d20 are 1 in 20 for each die roll. That means a player could have a string of die rolls where he rolls twenty after twenty, or one after one. So if each archer's die rolls are completely independent of each other, the chances that they will hit Roy, Durkon or the Barbed Devil are relatively low. Furthermore, even if they do roll more than one twenty, Durkon is immune to critical hits, and there is always a chance that the damage rolls will be 1's on d8s.

SoC175

2013-09-03, 04:26 PM

unlimited weak willed gaze attack. They turn on each other

Will not happen but fun to think aboutAt a rate of one soldier per round, with every 20th resisting one more round. Among the least effective responses

JessmanCA

2013-09-03, 04:36 PM

Doesn't it actually mean that statistically only one out of every twenty attacks has a chance of hitting them? I've been playing (A)D&D since 1991, and if there's one thing I've seen more of at the game table than anything else, it's the Gambler's Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_Fallacy). If every die roll is truly independent of every other one, then the chances of rolling a 20 on a d20 are 1 in 20 for each die roll. Likewise the chance of rolling a 1 on a d20 are 1 in 20 for each die roll. That means a player could have a string of die rolls where he rolls twenty after twenty, or one after one. So if each archer's die rolls are completely independent of each other, the chances that they will hit Roy, Durkon or the Barbed Devil are relatively low. Furthermore, even if they do roll more than one twenty, Durkon is immune to critical hits, and there is always a chance that the damage rolls will be 1's on d8s.

Since he qualified it with "Statistically" it still works. Statistically means over a long period of time, or with a large population of rolls, it will average out to 1 out of 20 attacks hits. Sure a player might have a string of 20's, say 3 in a row. But it's likely that he'll also get a long string of no 20's also. It all averages out in the long run. Statistics is just an estimation game anyways. We can predict likely scenarios with 90%, 95% accuracy, but no statistician will ever claim to give you 100% accuracy.

Emanick

2013-09-03, 04:38 PM

Dalek Kommander

2013-09-03, 04:47 PM

Doesn't it actually mean that statistically only one out of every twenty attacks has a chance of hitting them?

Nope, 1 out of 20 will absolutely hit, and each of those hits have a 1 in 20 chance of being critical hits.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Attack_Roll

For anyone without damage reduction, even the hits that "only" do standard damage could add up pretty quickly.

pendell

2013-09-03, 05:03 PM

As for Durkula, 1 greater dispel magic against which he fails his save will be enough to destroy him, or at least force him to expend a charge from his staff in order to prevent his immediate demise from the sun.

Since Durkula has no coffin, his existence expectancy is precisely as long as the number of charges in the staff. So he would be well advised to retreat rather than lose a day of undeath for every failed dispel check.

The only question is, how high a level is needed to break protection from daylight, and who has that capability? Do the high level casters need to do it, or can ordinary soldiers be equipped with wands that will do the job?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Flame of Anor

2013-09-03, 05:27 PM

For example, he could shout out and challenge Tarquin to personal combat. Tarquin will accept because, as a duel between the main villiain and the heroe's mentor figure, he is guaranteed to succeed. And killing the mentor in personal combat before the Hero provides a better story that just letting an army of mooks swarm over him. Roy would then proceed to slaugher Tarquin, as he is the main hero fighting a side villiain.

I really like this. It's the perfect way to turn Tarquin's genre-savviness against him.

BenjCano

2013-09-03, 05:58 PM

Nope, 1 out of 20 will absolutely hit, and each of those hits have a 1 in 20 chance of being critical hits.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Attack_Roll

For anyone without damage reduction, even the hits that "only" do standard damage could add up pretty quickly.

That's not how binomial distribution works. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution)

If the Order takes 40 attacks in the first round of combat, and we assume that each attacker requires a natural 20 to hit any member of the Order, then here is the probability of the following outcomes:

0 hits - 12.9%
1 hit - 27.1%
2 hits -27.8%
3 hits - 15.5%
4 hits - 9.0%
5 hits - 3.4%
6 hits - 1.0%

And all remaining possibilities have less than 1% chance of happening.

Perseus

2013-09-03, 06:36 PM

Julio Scoundrel to the rescue!

dps

2013-09-03, 06:55 PM

Personally, my expectation is that Tarquin is using this as leverage to get Elan to submit to his authority. Elan loudly shouts "Stop!" Tarquin has Laurin freeze the blots in mid-air, and Elan promises Tarquin... something... in return for sparing his friends.

Possible. He did tell Nale that he wanted Elan to tacitly acknowledge his authority, but I'm not sure exactly what he wants/expects Elan to say.

Newwby

2013-09-03, 07:15 PM

Tarquin will not go back on his word

Except for when he did on releasing Ian or paying the bounty hunters?

Dalek Kommander

2013-09-03, 07:42 PM

That's not how binomial distribution works. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution)

I didn't say anything about binomial distribution, my point is that 1 in 20 attacks don't just have a chance to hit, 1 in 20 attacks hit and have a chance to crit.

137beth

2013-09-03, 08:02 PM

I didn't say anything about binomial distribution, my point is that 1 in 20 attacks don't just have a chance to hit, 1 in 20 attacks hit and have a chance to crit.
No, 1 in 20 attacks do not hit. In fact, in 20 attacks, there is only a 64% chance that any of them hit at all, let alone crit.
And yes, how many hits are expected does form a binomial distribution, so that is what you (should) be talking about if you are concerned with how often the mooks would hit or crit. Do the math.

Also, I just want to point out that since most of what the mooks are using are (almost certainly nonmagical) arrows, Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall (both low level spells that V can cast) would negate almost all of the threat. Heck, either of those spells could have been in one of the wands that Haley took from Z, and she could use them if she got close enough.
And, if you really want to see what happens when a bunch of mooks with bows fight Roy in melee range, I suggest you look here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) Keep in mind that was when Roy was without any low-level buff spells that he could very easily get now and when he didn't even have a magic weapon.

Now, taking out this division of the army, although its something they could do pretty easily, won't be a ticket to safety. It might just mean that Miron, Laurin, and/or Tarquin get involved. They might still be better off in the rift unless Team Tarquin teleports/wormholes out next round.

Wayson

2013-09-03, 08:07 PM

Sky_Schemer

2013-09-03, 08:10 PM

I didn't say anything about binomial distribution, my point is that 1 in 20 attacks don't just have a chance to hit, 1 in 20 attacks hit and have a chance to crit.

What you said started with this:

Nope, 1 out of 20 will absolutely hit,

Which is not correct. Probability doesn't work that way. There are no absolutes, just outcomes that are more or less likely. Over a large number of samples, yes, it will average out to 1 in 20, but you cannot say that 1 in 20 will absolutely hit.

BenjCano

2013-09-03, 08:11 PM

You guys are trying to math your way to a conclusion.

Hey, understanding the application to role playing games and dice rolls is what got me through statistics 1 and 2.

Emanick

2013-09-03, 08:18 PM

There are no absolutes, just outcomes that are more or less likely. Over a large number of samples, yes, it will average out to 1 in 20, but you cannot say that 1 in 20 will absolutely hit.

I think he was using "absolutely" to emphasize the word "will," not in the mathematical sense of the word - i.e. he meant "absolutely" in the sense of Yes, I will absolutely do this, rather than in the sense of it is an absolute certainty that dividing by zero will render this calculator unable to give you a precise numerical answer.

Solse

2013-09-03, 08:22 PM

Kingault

2013-09-03, 08:56 PM

Roy will use his special psion powers to halt the crossbow bolts mid-flight and disintegrate the entire army in one strike, of course.

In all seriousness, I'm expecting either V coming back, Roy and the others dashing into the rift, or some other, unexpected thing.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-03, 09:05 PM

I love seeing how this thread started off as a prediction about a fantasy webcomic and ended up as a discussion about probability. I bet that this never happens to the FiM thread.
You would be wrong.

Oko and Qailee

2013-09-03, 09:09 PM

We have no clue where V's body is, and the odds are good that its buried in the rubble, even if the IFCC lets shim go. That said, V can't cast teleport even if they do.

If you look at the panel where Tarquin points at the rift, the floor is still intact, and V was below the rift.

V is perfectly OK

137beth

2013-09-03, 09:34 PM

You guys are trying to math your way to a conclusion. This is, at base, a webcomic, and the rules of D&D don't apply unless Rich wants them to. Even if they did, the Order is down a wizard, rogue, and bard (I'm assuming inaction on the part of Haley and Elan, for any number of reason, and V remaining in Hell). Belkar is about three HP away from death, Durkon's fiend is pretty beat up already, so...

I can only see a couple ways out. One, Durkon has some surprise-everything-dies spell in Malack's staff that he employs. Two, Sabine rolls in with V and a pile of nasty critters, redirecting Tarquin's focus. Or three, which I consider the most likely... they dive into the Rift to escape.
I'm not sure why you would assume inaction on Elan or Haley's part, or why V's time to come back isn't up.
Durkon's devil? Doesn't look too beat up to me, though that's not all that clear. Anyways, I'm rather surpised you expect Sabine coming back to be more likely than V coming back, considering V is being held for at most 20 minutes, starting an unspecified time ago, while Sabine cannot return to the material plane for at least 24 hours, starting earlier in the day.

I love seeing how this thread started off as a prediction about a fantasy webcomic and ended up as a discussion about probability. I bet that this never happens to the FiM thread.
What does FiM stand for:redface:

Anyways, you guys are all forgetting that the barbed devil is Laurin. Remember it disappeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) the moment before Laurin showed up, and it came back now as soon as she was off-panel. And she hated Nale because he was a disgrace to Lawfulness. So actually the Order has a level 17+ Psion on their side.

Kingault

2013-09-03, 10:06 PM

I'm not sure why you would assume inaction on Elan or Haley's part, or why V's time to come back isn't up.
Durkon's devil? Doesn't look too beat up to me, though that's not all that clear. Anyways, I'm rather surpised you expect Sabine coming back to be more likely than V coming back, considering V is being held for at most 20 minutes, starting an unspecified time ago, while Sabine cannot return to the material plane for at least 24 hours, starting earlier in the day.

What does FiM stand for:redface:

Anyways, you guys are all forgetting that the barbed devil is Laurin. Remember it disappeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) the moment before Laurin showed up, and it came back now as soon as she was off-panel. And she hated Nale because he was a disgrace to Lawfulness. So actually the Order has a level 17+ Psion on their side.

FiM stands for Friendship is Magic, I believe.

Ah, so the Order has two psions with them: Laurin and Roy.
This will go well.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-03, 10:18 PM

That's not how binomial distribution works. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution)

If the Order takes 40 attacks in the first round of combat, and we assume that each attacker requires a natural 20 to hit any member of the Order, then here is the probability of the following outcomes:

0 hits - 12.9%
1 hit - 27.1%
2 hits -27.8%
3 hits - 15.5%
4 hits - 9.0%
5 hits - 3.4%
6 hits - 1.0%

And all remaining possibilities have less than 1% chance of happening.

I didn't say anything about binomial distribution, my point is that 1 in 20 attacks don't just have a chance to hit, 1 in 20 attacks hit and have a chance to crit.

No, 1 in 20 attacks do not hit. In fact, in 20 attacks, there is only a 64% chance that any of them hit at all, let alone crit.
And yes, how many hits are expected does form a binomial distribution, so that is what you (should) be talking about if you are concerned with how often the mooks would hit or crit. Do the math.

Thanks to BenjCano for taking the time to do the math. Durkon, the Barbed Devil and Roy have very high ACs. Assuming that Tarquin's archers are Human and Lizardfolk Warriors, armed with non-magical crossbows, using regular ammunition, they are not likely to hit them more than once or twice. Durkon and the Barbed Devil can both ignore two regular crossbow bolts, and Roy won't be killed by them. That leaves Belkar, who is in no shape to survive a single hit.

Which is not correct. Probability doesn't work that way. There are no absolutes, just outcomes that are more or less likely. Over a large number of samples, yes, it will average out to 1 in 20, but you cannot say that 1 in 20 will absolutely hit.

And even saying that it will "average out" requires a large enough number of random rolls.

Even if they did, the Order is down a wizard, rogue, and bard (I'm assuming inaction on the part of Haley and Elan, for any number of reason, and V remaining in Hell). Belkar is about three HP away from death, Durkon's fiend is pretty beat up already, so...

The OotS is only down a Wizard. There's no way Haley won't get involved, and Elan might do something to help. The Barbed Devil is not in any danger from the crossbows, since they can't beat his DR. Light crossbows do 1-8 points of damage, Heavy Crossbows do 1-10 points of damage. Barbed Devils subtract 10 points of damage from any source that is not "Good" aligned, such as a Deva or the Bless Weapon spell. The same holds true for Durkon: unless the crossbows are all magical and the crossbow bolts are all tipped with Alchemical Silver heads, Durkon will ignore the crossbow bolts.

I can only see a couple ways out. One, Durkon has some surprise-everything-dies spell in Malack's staff that he employs. Two, Sabine rolls in with V and a pile of nasty critters, redirecting Tarquin's focus. Or three, which I consider the most likely... they dive into the Rift to escape.

I can think of multiple solutions that do not involve leaping into the Rift, Sabine returning early from her Banishment, or Cedrik letting V go early.

Durkon wins initiative, orders the Barbed Devil to teleport next to Miron, and to claw at him next round and initiate a grapple. Durkon then Dominates one of the mooks advancing towards them, while Roy stands by Belkar, to defend him. Mr. Scruffy disembowels several soldiers. While this is happening, Haley snipes at the Archers, and Elan engages in Diplomacy or sings a Bard Song.

Geordnet

2013-09-03, 10:19 PM

Couldn't he go gaseous and float over the water in mist form?
No, that would be crossing 'running' water.

Since Durkula has no coffin, his existence expectancy is precisely as long as the number of charges in the staff.
Not true: when the staff runs out of charges, he just needs to hide from the sun like any other vampire. A feat not so difficult for a race normally subterranean even in life. :smalltongue:

Which is not correct. Probability doesn't work that way. There are no absolutes, just outcomes that are more or less likely. Over a large number of samples, yes, it will average out to 1 in 20, but you cannot say that 1 in 20 will absolutely hit.
He didn't specify the range of time he was referring to, so it was implied that he was averaging over infinity.

Edit:
Wow, two start-of-page posts in a row, without even trying. :smalltongue:

Clyner

2013-09-03, 10:57 PM

tyckspoon

2013-09-03, 11:04 PM

Durkon wins initiative, orders the Barbed Devil to teleport next to Miron, and to claw at him next round and initiate a grapple. Durkon then Dominates one of the mooks advancing towards them, while Roy stands by Belkar, to defend him. Mr. Scruffy disembowels several soldiers. While this is happening, Haley snipes at the Archers, and Elan engages in Diplomacy or sings a Bard Song.

And none of this removes enough attackers from the situation quickly enough to really change the math that leads to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed', especially since Belkar will get downed in 2-3 arrows and die in 2 or 3 more. Don't forget the army also has air support and some T-Rexes, which are significantly more worrisome to deal with than melee mooks.. not that any kind of melee mooks are really necessary here. Belkar and Roy can be killed with archery from the edge of the crater, and Durkon is only really worried by Laurin.

(Speaking of, somebody asked earlier about how durable Durkon's daylight protection is likely to be? Staffs use the holder's caster level if it's higher than the spell in the staff, so even if there were casters or magic items among the army they'd have no chance of removing the spell. It'd need Laurin or some other high-level caster to have any decent chance of getting that spell off of Durkon.)

137beth

2013-09-03, 11:40 PM

And none of this removes enough attackers from the situation quickly enough to really change the math that leads to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed',

But the math doesn't lead to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed', it leads to 'a bunch of mook archers in melee combat with several people capable of protecting from arrows are no threat to a couple high level warriors'. You might want to reread the bandit camp thing if that's what you think.

Not true: when the staff runs out of charges, he just needs to hide from the sun like any other vampire. A feat not so difficult for a race normally subterranean even in life.
Or just cast the spell himself like Malack did.

tyckspoon

2013-09-03, 11:43 PM

But the math doesn't lead to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed', it leads to 'a bunch of mook archers in melee combat with several people capable of protecting from arrows are no threat to a couple high level warriors'. You might want to reread the bandit camp thing if that's what you think.

You'd have to show me where the part where the archers are in melee combat or likely *to* be in melee combat is, because what I see is a couple of pincushions stuck in the bottom of a crater of what might be difficult terrain being engaged by at least dozens of melee mooks that they'll have to chew through before they get anywhere near the archers.

Geordnet

2013-09-04, 01:54 AM

Completely agree with the OP. Roy was ambushed, chased into the pyramid, deprived of his strongest fighter and he STILL managed to drive back a force that had him outnumbered and outgunned.
Because he had the initiative (in the military sense). Roy got to pick and choose the best circumstances he could for the battle and set up an ambush, and LG walked right into his trap.

This time, it's the exact opposite: Tarquin has the upper hand, and he chose the engagement. Being a good strategist doesn't help at all once the battle has already been joined. At that point the options reduce to variations on but two: accept the disadvantage and continue the fight regardless, or (attempt to) disengage.

Tarquin just showed his hand, THEN gave Roy two minutes off-panel to heal up, cast sending, and think of a plan. Tarquin's dead.
Wait, what? :smallconfused:

If Tarkin has just shown his hand, that hand was a straight flush. Even without the army, Tarquin's party of hardened adventurers would be more than a match for the Order in their weakened state. With it? The outcome is a statistical inevitability.

It would take a literal miracle (or Deus Ex Mechanica) for Tarquin to "lose" this one in the sense that the Order beats him, his party, and and his entire army in a conventional manner.

But the math doesn't lead to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed', it leads to 'a bunch of mook archers in melee combat with several people capable of protecting from arrows are no threat to a couple high level warriors'. You might want to reread the bandit camp thing if that's what you think.
Comparing this to the Bandit Camp is like comparing a stick of TnT to a firecracker.

#911 showed Tarquin's forces to include more than 300 infantrymen, as well as at least 20 raptors and 2 allosauri. (And this was only around half of the crater.) #910 had at least 9 pteranodons in the air.

Tarquin called his army a Regiment, which would normally imply at least 1,000 men (or more, by modern standards) but let's err on the small side and guesstimate two battalions of 300 men each, and no more dinos than we've already seen.

So, how long would it take the Order to hack through them all? Lets assume each OotS member (including V, just because) kills 4 of them a round on average. (I'm no expert, but I'm betting that's pretty generous.) So 600 mooks / 24 kills per round = 25 rounds to wipe them out -not including the dino riders.

In that time, each OotS member will no doubt be surrounded and suffer 6-8 melee attacks per round. (Plus uncountable potential AoOs.) There were over 50 crossbow bolts in #916, and probably many more unshown, so let's assume each member has 30 of them flying at them.

36 attacks/round * (1/20) hits/attack * 4.5 damage/hit = 8.1 damage/round on average for every OotS member -and this isn't even taking the dinos into account.

8.1 damage/round * 25 rounds = 202.5 damage expected for each member of OotS: Definitely enough to kill all of them. And all just from the 600 infantry mooks; after that they've still got the dinosaurs and a high-level adventuring party to deal with.

Is that enough math to spell out "they're screwed" for you? :smallannoyed:

JBiddles

2013-09-04, 03:06 AM

"including V, just because"

:vaarsuvius: "Wind Wall. Quickened Protection from Arrows."

Also, even assuming V is out of action for now, Durkula has DR: even if Roy and Belkar go down, they'll still have cut through a large part of the army, and Durkula can just cut off a bit of then to Resurrect later. Durkula more or less ignores the arrows, though he may struggle to bring down the dinosaurs since he's low on spells.

Klear

2013-09-04, 03:13 AM

Re: Statistical distributions - I assume in real DnD when dealing with armies of several hundreds, the DM would simply take the most probable result according to the distribution instead of rolling every single attack the army does.

If so, it might as well be exactly every 20th arrow that hits.

Sungrass

2013-09-04, 03:51 AM

So, how long would it take the Order to hack through them all? Lets assume each OotS member (including V, just because) kills 4 of them a round on average. (I'm no expert, but I'm betting that's pretty generous.) So 600 mooks / 24 kills per round = 25 rounds to wipe them out -not including the dino riders.I'd agree that a spell-less Durkon and Belkar might each manage to kill only 1 mook per attack, but with Great Cleave, Roy will quite easily kill all mooks that end their turn adjacent to him, plus all mooks that Roy can move to in between his first and last attack. At a bare minimum, Roy will be killing 16 mooks per round on his own. If he has some sort of feat that gives him additional reach, or allows him to move slightly in between each of his standard attacks, then this number could get very, very high.

In that time, each OotS member will no doubt be surrounded and suffer 6-8 melee attacks per round. (Plus uncountable potential AoOs.) There were over 50 crossbow bolts in #916, and probably many more unshown, so let's assume each member has 30 of them flying at them.

36 attacks/round * (1/20) hits/attack * 4.5 damage/hit = 8.1 damage/round on average for every OotS member -and this isn't even taking the dinos into account.

8.1 damage/round * 25 rounds = 202.5 damage expected for each member of OotS: Definitely enough to kill all of them. And all just from the 600 infantry mooks; after that they've still got the dinosaurs and a high-level adventuring party to deal with.

Elan and Haley are unlikely to be attacked by the mooks, Tarquin is unlikely to allow that.

Durkon has 10 damage reduction per hit that can only be bypassed by a weapon that is both silver and magical.

Durkon's Hamatula has 10 damage reduction per hit that can only be bypassed by good-aligned creatures.

If V somehow shows up, he'll be flying out of melee reach and will have protection from arrows cast on himself.

The only two people who are likely to take any damage at all are Roy and Belkar. While he is unlikely to provoke any attacks of opportunity due to tumble, I think Belkar is still in far greater danger than Roy due to his drained constitution score.

Aasimar

2013-09-04, 04:02 AM

I believe Roy will at least have a significant impact on this battle, mostly due to them being significantly below his level and him possessing great cleavage...cleave, I meant cleave.

The Pilgrim

2013-09-04, 04:14 AM

That leaves Belkar, who is in no shape to survive a single hit.

Is there any reason why Durkon hasn't cast "restoration" on him already?

The Zoat

2013-09-04, 04:57 AM

No Spell Slots.

pendell

2013-09-04, 06:54 AM

I think the rules betray us. I think in OOTSworld the rules of drama overrule the rules of the game. And by drama, when the villain sics his innumerable hordes on you, this is a battle you will not win.

The fact that we're even having this conversation shows how unrealistic D&D is for nonfantasy tactical encounters. It's like saying Faramir, as a level-XX ranger, could hold the gate to Minus Tirith all by himself so long as he's got a high level cleric to turn the ring wraiths and provide healing. That may be true by game rules, but by real world rules and the dramatic conventions that spring from them it's silly.

Rich Burlew goes for what makes emotional and dramatic sense and if the rules get in the way of that, the rules have to go.

So I don't think the OOTS has a chance at *winning* this as a combat encounter. Not when we have two high-level casters and the greatest warrior of his age standing at the rim of the crater.

They will need to be rescued, or they can talk their way out, or they can flee. But straight up winning? This isn't a video game. There will be no "kill a thousand mook heartless to advance" level.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2013-09-04, 06:58 AM

Is there any reason why Durkon hasn't cast "restoration" on him already?
Didn't prepare it today, and/or already spent it as a spontaneous Cure spell (before dying).

Vampire Durkon may also be, shall we say, less inclined to go out of his way to keep Belkar intact than Living Durkon was.

The Pilgrim

2013-09-04, 07:29 AM

Didn't prepare it today, and/or already spent it as a spontaneous Cure spell (before dying).

Vampire Durkon may also be, shall we say, less inclined to go out of his way to keep Belkar intact than Living Durkon was.

Maybe, but what puzzles me is the absence of a mention at all. Almost every time they need a spell so blatantly, the Giant spends a speech baloon for Durkon to specify that he has not prepared such spell.

Durkon could also have cast it on Belkar off panel (when he gave healing potions to everyone and that), but Belkar still has fang marks on his head so I suppose he has not. On the other hand, he hasn't shown signs of fatigue for a while (like up until before Roy blowed the Pyramid)

Dalek Kommander

2013-09-04, 07:54 AM

No, 1 in 20 attacks do not hit. In fact, in 20 attacks, there is only a 64% chance that any of them hit at all, let alone crit.

Each attack has a 1 in 20 chance of hitting. That means that you can expect 1 in 20 of the attacks to hit as the number of samples approaches infinity. That is why it is CALLED a 1 in 20 chance. Probabilities would not be described in terms such as "1 in 20" at all if probabilities never averaged out over the long term like this.

Ubab

2013-09-04, 08:21 AM

Roy can't do much... Remember the lesson Haley learned in Azure City war. 5% of chances of get hit isn't dangerous, but there's only the 3 to get hit, and it's a lot of mooks trying.

Durkon, by himself, can "gaseous form" with the staff (but he will lose the supernatural damage reduction 10/magic AND silver).

I think that will not be easy, but the main goal must be the Perfect and Number One Order of the Stick's Plan: run away!

The point about Plane Shift is: they need a focus that is linked to a specific Plane. Bring Belkar to a plane where Durkon must choose is not a good idea, now, worst to Durkon himself.

Let's see... But Belkar only hope is Durkon (or V reappear).

Souhiro

2013-09-04, 08:40 AM

By RAW, Vaarsuvius cannot learn teleport since he chose conjuration as one of his prohibited schools. He cannot even use scroll or a wand that fires a conjuration spell.

But, by RAW, it doesn't say anything about Staves. a Staff of Pasage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-passage) or a Staff of Travel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-travel) would be truly Kickass, if he's able to use them!

(I know, I know, those staves are from the Pathfinder Database, but they are 100% legal and can be done under 3.5 rules)

Sorry for my awful grammar. Yo hablo español

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-04, 09:38 AM

And none of this removes enough attackers from the situation quickly enough to really change the math that leads to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed', especially since Belkar will get downed in 2-3 arrows and die in 2 or 3 more. Don't forget the army also has air support and some T-Rexes, which are significantly more worrisome to deal with than melee mooks.. not that any kind of melee mooks are really necessary here. Belkar and Roy can be killed with archery from the edge of the crater, and Durkon is only really worried by Laurin.

Durkon is immune to most of Laurin's Powers. The only Power we know that Laurin has that Durkon is vulnerable to is Psionic Disintegrate, since that is a Power that requires a Fort save that affects objects. As a Vampire, Durkon is immune to Mind Affecting effects. If Laurin is a Telepath, rather than say a Kineticist or Nomad, Durkon has nothing to worry about from her. Roy and Belkar are still in a lot of danger from her. The reason I suggested the Barbed Devil go after Miron rather than Laurin is that she might have a better Concentration score than Miron, since Psions rely on Concentration to acquire their Psionic Focus to fuel their Psionic and Metapsionic feats. But assuming Miron is a Wizard or Sorcerer and he's the same level as Laurin, they both will have similar hit point totals. Her AC may be higher, but neither should be that good at grapple checks. Having the Barbed Devil gives the OotS a big advantage when it comes to surviving (or even winning) this fight.

(Speaking of, somebody asked earlier about how durable Durkon's daylight protection is likely to be? Staffs use the holder's caster level if it's higher than the spell in the staff, so even if there were casters or magic items among the army they'd have no chance of removing the spell. It'd need Laurin or some other high-level caster to have any decent chance of getting that spell off of Durkon.)

Malack cast the Protection from Sunlight spell on Durkon the first time. The staff's caster level is 12, unless Protection from Sunlight is higher than 5th level, in which case the caster level is the minimum level Malack would have needed to be to cast it. Laurin would need to know the Dispel Psionics power. Her dispel check is 1d20 + her manifester level, maximum 10. She can augment the power; for every additional power point she spends she gets a +2 bonus to her dispel check, up to a maximum of 5 bonus points. Assuming Miron is a Wizard he would need to have prepared Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic and succeed on a dispel check.

But the math doesn't lead to 'Belkar and Roy are screwed', it leads to 'a bunch of mook archers in melee combat with several people capable of protecting from arrows are no threat to a couple high level warriors'. You might want to reread the bandit camp thing if that's what you think.

Tarquin has three types of troops here: archers, who are at the rim of the crater, sniping; infrantry; and cavalry (including flyers). The infantry and cavalry are charging into the crater. So you're definitely correct that this is not at all like the Bandit Ambush, where Haley suckered three low level archers into walking into melee range of Roy, Belkar and Durkon. I think we can assume Tarquin's archers have the Precise Shot feat, and therefore take no penalty for firing into melee; he's too savvy a tactician to bring archers without that feat.

Or just cast the spell himself like Malack did.

Durkon doesn't know the Protection from Daylight spell. Malack hinted that he had to research it specially. Durkon also hasn't been able to regain his spell slots and prepare new spells. He has all of the spells remaining from the last time he prepared spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), and he's cast a lot of spells since then. He's also been forced to switch his two Domains for new ones, and I don't know if he needs to regain his spell slots and prepare new Domain spells, or if that happened when Malack caused Durkon to rise from the grave early.

You'd have to show me where the part where the archers are in melee combat or likely *to* be in melee combat is, because what I see is a couple of pincushions stuck in the bottom of a crater of what might be difficult terrain being engaged by at least dozens of melee mooks that they'll have to chew through before they get anywhere near the archers.

Barbed Devils can teleport at will. Durkon can assume the form of a bat or Gaseous Form, also at will. A Human or Lizardfolk archer standing next to a Barbed Devil or a Vampire is in bad shape. The problem, as many posters have pointed out, is that there are a lot of archers. That is one of the big disadvantages the OotS faces right now, and I am not discounting that, but numbers alone are not everything. Belkar's drained Constitution and resulting low hit point total, V's absence and Durkon being low on spells are bigger worries than a large number of archers.

Comparing this to the Bandit Camp is like comparing a stick of TnT to a firecracker.

#911 showed Tarquin's forces to include more than 300 infantrymen, as well as at least 20 raptors and 2 allosauri. (And this was only around half of the crater.) #910 had at least 9 pteranodons in the air.

Tarquin called his army a Regiment, which would normally imply at least 1,000 men (or more, by modern standards) but let's err on the small side and guesstimate two battalions of 300 men each, and no more dinos than we've already seen.

So, how long would it take the Order to hack through them all? Lets assume each OotS member (including V, just because) kills 4 of them a round on average. (I'm no expert, but I'm betting that's pretty generous.) So 600 mooks / 24 kills per round = 25 rounds to wipe them out -not including the dino riders.

In that time, each OotS member will no doubt be surrounded and suffer 6-8 melee attacks per round. (Plus uncountable potential AoOs.) There were over 50 crossbow bolts in #916, and probably many more unshown, so let's assume each member has 30 of them flying at them.

36 attacks/round * (1/20) hits/attack * 4.5 damage/hit = 8.1 damage/round on average for every OotS member -and this isn't even taking the dinos into account.

8.1 damage/round * 25 rounds = 202.5 damage expected for each member of OotS: Definitely enough to kill all of them. And all just from the 600 infantry mooks; after that they've still got the dinosaurs and a high-level adventuring party to deal with.

Is that enough math to spell out "they're screwed" for you? :smallannoyed:

You're leaving out factors like DR, Fast Healing, Teleport, Roy's Cleave feat, the wands Haley looted from Z (hopefully one is a Wand of Fireballs, or a Wand of Summoning Wanda Firebaugh :smalltongue:), Bardic Music, Vampiric Domination, and Barbed Devil hugs. The only way Durkon or the Barbed Devil take physical damage is from dino bites.

Take a look at the Barbed Devil's stats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula) for a moment. Any creature hit by it's claws must make a Will save (DC 20) or be affected by Fear. Dinosaurs don't have great Will saves, nor do Warriors. Any creature hitting a Barbed Devil with a natural weapon or a melee weapon that doesn't have reach takes 1d8+6 damage. So any dinosaur or soldier who somehow succeeds in hitting Mr. Hamatula is taking the equivalent of a longsword thrust to the chest. Barbed Devils can use Hold Person and Scorching Ray as spell-like abilities at will. And of course they are famous for their ability to grapple and impale opponenets, which I suggested be used against Miron or Laurin. Whether Durkon prefers to do that early on, while he remains with Roy and Belkar, or he prefers to keep the creature in the pit so it can claw some dinos and send them stampeding, the Barbed Devil can make a major difference in the OotS surviving this fight long enough for V to return. Vaarsuvius still has most of her prepared spells left, and she could turn the tide with a few choice spells. The problem is we don't know exactly how many minutes have elapsed on V and Blackwing's stay in the Nine Hells. If there is more than ten minutes remaining, she can't serve as the Cavalry.

Re: Statistical distributions - I assume in real DnD when dealing with armies of several hundreds, the DM would simply take the most probable result according to the distribution instead of rolling every single attack the army does.

If so, it might as well be exactly every 20th arrow that hits.

In real D&D there are rules for large scale battles. Those include the Battlesystem from AD&D, Chainmail from 3.0, The Miniatures Handbook and the D&D Miniatures game in 3.5 and Skill Challenges in 4E.

I'd agree that a spell-less Durkon and Belkar might each manage to kill only 1 mook per attack, but with Great Cleave, Roy will quite easily kill all mooks that end their turn adjacent to him, plus all mooks that Roy can move to in between his first and last attack. At a bare minimum, Roy will be killing 16 mooks per round on his own. If he has some sort of feat that gives him additional reach, or allows him to move slightly in between each of his standard attacks, then this number could get very, very high.

What a Fighter like Roy does is declare at the beginning of his turn how high a Power Attack attack penalty/damage bonus he is taking. Once he does so that number applies until the start of his next turn. So if Roy declares he is Power Attacking for -10/+20 the penalty/bonus lasts until his next turn. Roy's BAB is at least +13, giving him three attacks per round with a Full Attack. If he Power Attacks the first mook and kills him, he can Cleave, using the same attack bonus as the enemy he dropped. If we are going to discuss the math of this battle, Roy's feats and attack bonuses, the AC of his enemies (which is penalized in the same round they charge), the level of the mooks and hit dice of the dinosaurs they're riding, and various miscellaneous modifiers need to be accounted for.

As for Belkar, his hit points are in the toilet, but the mooks are two of his favored enemies: Humanoid (Human) and Humanoid (Reptilian). For as long as he draws breath and he can't escape he'll be stabbing creatures he hates.

The only two people who are likely to take any damage at all are Roy and Belkar. While he is unlikely to provoke any attacks of opportunity due to tumble, I think Belkar is still in far greater danger than Roy due to his drained constitution score.

Does Belkar have ranks in Tumble?

Roy can't do much... Remember the lesson Haley learned in Azure City war. 5% of chances of get hit isn't dangerous, but there's only the 3 to get hit, and it's a lot of mooks trying.

Roy's not fighting an army, he's fighting a regiment composed of archers, infantry and cavalry. And he's (literally) designed to take down infantry. He has a +5 Greatsword, a Belt of Giant Strength (probably +4, but maybe +6) and heavy armor of some sort. Any mook charging him takes a -2 penalty to their AC during the round they charge, until the start of their next turn, they can make a single attack and their movement ends once they finish their charge, all for the cost of a full round action. (I am so glad that the -2 penalty to AC was dumped in 4E.) Roy may end up surrounded by mooks... who are going to be dead in one round. The tactical grid nature of D&D combat means that only nine medium size creatures can surround a single medium size creature; only four large size creatures can surround a single medium size creature. If these mooks try to Zerg Rush Roy, Durkon or the Barbed Devil, they will be die quickly. Belkar is the only one who is in immediate danger from melee. As for the archers, do you know the fire rate of crossbows in D&D? Even with the Rapid Reload feat, these guys can't fire more than once per round. Their bolts literally do no damage to Durkon or Mr. Hamatula. They probably need to roll a twenty to hit Roy's AC. And if they want to benefit from the Point Blank Shot feat they need to be within range of Durkon's Vampiric Domination ability.

Durkon, by himself, can "gaseous form" with the staff (but he will lose the supernatural damage reduction 10/magic AND silver).

Vampires can't take any action while in Gaseous Form other than move or change shape.

I think that will not be easy, but the main goal must be the Perfect and Number One Order of the Stick's Plan: run away!

Vaarsuvius is missing. Elan and Haley are separated from the main group. The only place to flee is into a Rift in space and time which leads to an ocean. Yeah, that's a great plan. :smallyuk:

Geordnet

2013-09-04, 10:22 AM

Souhiro

2013-09-04, 10:47 AM

"including V, just because"

:vaarsuvius:"Wind Wall. Quickened Protection from Arrows."
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EoBSoldier.png *8x Attack of Opportunity*

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Laurin, neutralize that caster, would you?

compared to the alternative? :smalltongue:

You know, the soldiers have to be ADJACENT to V to have an AoO. Also, He should be able to pass his Concentration Check!

But I think that V would just save the party getting an staff of Teleport (By RAW, he can use it!) teleporting next to Redcloak, and cast "Eternity of Torture": a spell which, in addition to causing excruciating pain for as long as it lasts, which is forever, also twists the victim's body, and renders him completely helpless. And if that weren't enough, it also sustains all your needs such as food, drink, air, etc. And it makes you ageless. Then, Vaarsuvius creates his own demiplane, hurls Redcloak inside, and closes FOREVER the only entrance, erasing from his memories any trace for opening a gate to such demiplane EVER.

Bye Bye, Wrong-Eye.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-04, 10:54 AM

Also, He should be able to pass his Concentration Check!
This is quite possible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html). On the other hand, it is not likely (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639).

Klear

2013-09-04, 10:57 AM

In real D&D there are rules for large scale battles. Those include the Battlesystem from AD&D, Chainmail from 3.0, The Miniatures Handbook and the D&D Miniatures game in 3.5 and Skill Challenges in 4E.

And? How do they work? Was I right or wrong in my assumption?

Sungrass

2013-09-04, 11:45 AM

What a Fighter like Roy does is declare at the beginning of his turn how high a Power Attack attack penalty/damage bonus he is taking. Once he does so that number applies until the start of his next turn. So if Roy declares he is Power Attacking for -10/+20 the penalty/bonus lasts until his next turn. Roy's BAB is at least +13, giving him three attacks per round with a Full Attack. If he Power Attacks the first mook and kills him, he can Cleave, using the same attack bonus as the enemy he dropped. If we are going to discuss the math of this battle, Roy's feats and attack bonuses, the AC of his enemies (which is penalized in the same round they charge), the level of the mooks and hit dice of the dinosaurs they're riding, and various miscellaneous modifiers need to be accounted for.

Yeah, fair enough. Roy has Great Cleave though, so there is no limit to the number of times he can trigger Cleave each round. From the wording on SRD, any damage you deal that drops an enemy's HP to zero can be used to trigger a Cleave. So yeah, you can Cleave off a Cleave. Heck, you can Cleave off an AoO, even if it isn't your turn.

Admittedly, I was just running under the assumption that these are 1 HD soldiers, and that Roy could hit them on a 2. I suppose that could be over-optimistic, depending on how well Tarquin has bothered to train his soldiers. That being said... Roy is estimated to have 24 strength, a +5 greatsword and weapon specialization. That's what? 2d6+14 before power attack? If he does then add another 20 damage from power attack... That's 4-5 HD worth of damage he's doing per attack. I'm not sure it'd be fair to call these soldiers "mooks" if they were capable of surviving more than 1 attack like that.

If my assumptions hold true, with 3 full attacks per round this essentially gives Roy three opportunities to initiate up a Cleave chain each round, plus one for each additional AoOs during the enemy turn. The only limiting factor would be his reach.

Does Belkar have ranks in Tumble?

Oh... I'm not sure actually...
I assumed that's what he was doing when he back-flipped here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0902.html

But I see that tumble isn't listed for him in the Class & Level Geekery thread, so I'm not sure.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-04, 11:54 AM

And? How do they work? Was I right or wrong in my assumption?

Each system is different. Battlesystem and Chainmail are rules intensive tabletop miniatures games, with complex systems meant to simulate fantasy warfare. D&D Minatures is a rules light system, meant for quick and fun battles where you ask: who would win in a fight between Regdar, Elminster, Raistlin Majere, Count Strahd von Zarovich, an Adult Red Dragon and a Dire Badger, vs. Mialee, 5 Wights, 20 Hobgoblin Archers, a Flumph, Driz'zt DoUrden, Mordenkainen and an Aspect of Lolth. Why are these characters fighting? Who cares, I wanna know who'd win!

A Skill Challenge to resolve mass combat is resolved like any other Skill Challenge, with a probable caveat that if the PCs get three failures before getting the required number of successes (either vs. opposed rolls or vs. a set DC) they lose a number of Healing surges and are forced to retreat or are taken prisoner. Even in this case, the Complexity of the Skill Challenge and it's Level would be determined by the nature of the battle. If the PCs are leading an army against another, the Complexity might be higher, since the PCs need to manage their forces, delegate tasks and anticipate enemy tactics. That implies a Complexity Three or Four Challenge, but the level should be equal to, or two to three levels lower than, the PCs' level. If the PCs are being besieged by an enemy, and they're on their own, I would not make the complexity higher than Two or Three, but the Level should be much higher. Basically there's more to do when the PCs are in charge of an army, but because they have help (officers, sargeants) and men to fight the battle, the DC of the skill checks are lower, than if the PCs are trying to keep themselves alive long enough to escape a huge army. In the latter case, there's less to do, but the tasks are harder (higher DC, greater XP award if they succeed).

EDIT:

Yeah, fair enough. Roy has Great Cleave though, so there is no limit to the number of times he can trigger Cleave each round. From the wording on SRD, any damage you deal that drops an enemy's HP to zero can be used to trigger a Cleave. So yeah, you can Cleave off a Cleave. Heck, you can Cleave off an AoO, even if it isn't your turn.

Admittedly, I was just running under the assumption that these are 1 HD soldiers, and that Roy could hit them on a 2. I suppose that could be over-optimistic, depending on how well Tarquin has bothered to train his soldiers. That being said... Roy is estimated to have 24 strength, a +5 greatsword and weapon specialization. That's what? 2d6+14 before power attack? If he does then add another 20 damage from power attack... That's 4-5 HD worth of damage he's doing per attack. I'm not sure it'd be fair to call these soldiers "mooks" if they were capable of surviving more than 1 attack like that.

If my assumptions hold true, with 3 full attacks per round this essentially gives Roy three opportunities to initiate up a Cleave chain each round, plus one for each additional AoOs during the enemy turn. The only limiting factor would be his reach.

We don't know what level Tarquin's soldiers are. Lizardfolk have two racial hit dice, plus they might have Warrior levels. The footsoldiers are probably Warriors, not Fighters. The big difference are that Fighters get bonus feats that Warriors lack. The Human archers, for example, would need to be 6th level to have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus (light crossbow), while a Human Fighter could have all those at 2nd level. Otherwise the BAB is the same between the classes.

If the infantry are Warriors below 6th level, Roy should be able to handle five or six per round. He could also try to target a cavalryman, and Cleave into the mount (or vice versa).

My point is that Roy's death is not a done deal. If the Giant wants the OotS to beat Team Tarquin in a grand fight, to close out book Five, he could do it without resorting to "authorial fiat", "rule of drama", "deus ex machina" or whatever the term that's in vogue this season. Whether the Giant wants to resolve the storyline that way is an entirely different story.

Marlowe

2013-09-04, 12:00 PM

Take a look at the Barbed Devil's stats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula) for a moment.

:

Ah, The Barbed Devil.

A minor (but real) reason why I maintain that any character that wants to live beyond 10th level should either be a spellcaster, carry a magic bow and a selection of appropriate arrows, or own a magic reach weapon. Preferably, two out of three.

Although, having three out of three just makes you look tacky.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-04, 12:11 PM

Ah, The Barbed Devil.

A minor (but real) reason why I maintain that any character that wants to live beyond 10th level should either be a spellcaster, carry a magic bow and a selection of appropriate arrows, or own a magic reach weapon. Preferably, two out of three.

Although, having three out of three just makes you look tacky.

Technically you just need a masterwork longspear or longbow, and vials of Oil of Bless Weapon to deal with a Barbed Devil. Hitting the things are hard though, since their AC is a 29. They also have rather good SR, so just being a spellcaster isn't a panacea, especially if they teleport next to a Wizard and wait for the chance to grapple (from an AOO or on their next turn) and start impaling the squishy wizard.

Origomar

2013-09-04, 12:31 PM

Assuming V makes it back in time to be of help, a few spells could make all the arrows basically negligible, combine that with large amounts of AOE spells or just forcing the footsoldiers to fight in a bad position they could probably win.

Grant it an approximately lv 20 psion and fighter is also there.

pendell

2013-09-04, 12:36 PM

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-04, 01:28 PM

Another point. This is an army trained and led by the guy who read the evil overlord list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html).

Not all bands of mooks are alike. And this is far from the first band of high-level adventurers Tarquin has encountered in his career.

So if it is plausible for an army division/regiment/legion to take down an adventuring group if properly equipped and trained, I have no doubt this division will be so prepared.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

With respect, Tarquin's devotion to the rules of Drama are great, but the comic has two more important rules: Comedy and Gaming, and in a pinch Gaming can slide. By the rules of Drama Roy has a small chance to survive this encounter and flee. By the rules of Gaming Roy has a much greater chance of surviving, and a smaller chance of acheiving victory. The rules of Comedy dictate that the side who has the highest chance of acheiving victory will have their victory snatched away and handed to the scrappy underdogs. That is how it works, whether it's a Sports Comedy, a Romantic Comedy, or an Adventure Comedy with Tabletop Roleplaying Game seasoning.

Tarquin is Wrong-Genre Savvy. In a dramatic adventure, like "Star Wars" or "LotR", he'd be completely right that Roy will die, Elan and Haley will escape and go off and have a series of adventures preparing for their final showdown. But this is humorous webcomic about a straight man Fighter trying to manage the world's most inept PCs, as they quest to save the world from a comically lazy, Undead Monstrosity and his overly stuck-up Goblin Cleric Henchman. That's the core of the webcomic: Roy dealing with Elan's zaniness, Haley's scheming and greed, V's ego, Belkar's psychopathy, his best friend becoming a Vampire, his strained relationship with his dead father, his annoying sister, his long-distance relationship with his sexy Outsider girlfriend, an Oracle that won't give him the time of day without insulting him, and an archvillain who can't be bothered to remember his name. Everything else, the Gates, the Snarl, Tarquin's plans for the Western Continent, etc., is window dressing.

In this case the current window dressing involves Elan's crazy dad trying to kill half the party, plus V is nowhere to be found. Just a typical day for the OotS (along with finding Girard's clan dead, fighting the Linear Guild (again), losing Durkon, getting lost in a Phantasm, breaking free, locating the Gate, destroying it, fighting Redcloak's Silicon Elemental, fighting a Barbed Devil and a Piscoloth, then regaining Durkon (as a vampire) and seeing Tarquin kill Nale). Having to deal with a bunch of mooks (even ones who have been driled by Tarquin) is just another thing for the OotS to go through, but honestly, compared to getting a Meteor Swarm in the face and plummeting off the back of a Zombie Dragon to his death, this is a cakewalk for Roy.

Marlowe

2013-09-04, 01:48 PM

Technically you just need a masterwork longspear or longbow, and vials of Oil of Bless Weapon to deal with a Barbed Devil. Hitting the things are hard though, since their AC is a 29. They also have rather good SR, so just being a spellcaster isn't a panacea, especially if they teleport next to a Wizard and wait for the chance to grapple (from an AOO or on their next turn) and start impaling the squishy wizard.

Certainly not. However, it's still better than being the 2-weapon fighter who winds up cowering against the wall waiting for the spellcasters to do something because you can't effect these things at all. At least a spellcaster with competent minions...did I say minions? I meant martial characters could cast buffs.

Yes, I've been in the situation. No, I wasn't the fighter.

Let's just say the sight of having our so-called "martial" characters hang back and dither because nothing in their build (at 13th level) gave them an ounce of effectiveness against a CR 11 monster was a bit of an eye-opener.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-04, 02:08 PM

Certainly not. However, it's still better than being the 2-weapon fighter who winds up cowering against the wall waiting for the spellcasters to do something because you can't effect these things at all. At least a spellcaster with competent minions...did I say minions? I meant martial characters could cast buffs.

Yes, I've been in the situation. No, I wasn't the fighter.

Let's just say the sight of having our so-called "martial" characters hang back and dither because nothing in their build (at 13th level) gave them an ounce of effectiveness against a CR 11 monster was a bit of an eye-opener.

Yeah, Martial types in 3E need to bring a golf bag of weapons. A club for Skeletons, a slashing weapon for Zombies, a Magic Weapon for Wights, an alchemical weapon (or Silversheen) for Lycanthropes and some Devils (plus oil of magic weapon) for Vampires, a Cold Iron weapon for some Demons, or Oil of Bless Weapon (or Align Weapon) for others. And an Epic Weapon for when you run into the Tarrasque. :smallbiggrin:

It could be worse; in 3.0 you'd need a Wizard or Sorcerer able to cast Greater Magic Weapon, or you couldn't overcome DR that was even higher than it is in 3.5. :smallyuk: And in AD&D if you didn't have a +1 Weapon and were surrounded by Wights, you were in serious trouble. Nothing you had could hurt them, and every time they touched you lost a level. I'm sure that DR and Negative Levels were made in response to complaints about situations like that. (Of course it's the DM's fault for putting you up against monsters you can't hurt in the first place. Don't put monsters like that on your AD&D encoutner tables if you don't want to give your Players +1 weapons! :smallmad:)

Chosen

2013-09-04, 02:30 PM

Certainly not. However, it's still better than being the 2-weapon fighter who winds up cowering against the wall waiting for the spellcasters to do something because you can't effect these things at all. At least a spellcaster with competent minions...did I say minions? I meant martial characters could cast buffs.

Yes, I've been in the situation. No, I wasn't the fighter.

Let's just say the sight of having our so-called "martial" characters hang back and dither because nothing in their build (at 13th level) gave them an ounce of effectiveness against a CR 11 monster was a bit of an eye-opener.

I have been in similar situation before with another devil the bearded devil at lvl 3 in PF. The devil was summoned to guard a town and we ran into when it was alone and none of the party actually knew in game how scarey that thing is. We lost one party member and my cleric got infected with the disease of the beard before we fled. We were away from any civilization and the DM had let me reroll fort checks otherwise I would have just died from the disease, which would have meant a further depleted party now with no divine caster. Yea no one had the magical silver weapons to hurt it and the arcane caster had only elemental damage spells prepared which won't hurt a bearded devil with its immunities and resistances.

Magesmiley

2013-09-04, 05:23 PM

I hesitate to point out the obvious solution... Haley, with a considerable amount of sneak attack and a serious reason to be upset with Tarquin is standing a couple of paces away from him.

Obviously if she did something to Elan's father it would do considerable damage to her relationship with Elan. Which actually might make for a more interesting story.

Kish

2013-09-04, 06:43 PM

Obviously if she did something to Elan's father it would do considerable damage to her relationship with Elan. Which actually might make for a more interesting story.
It is remarkable how completely people can differ on what they consider "obvious."

(If she killed Tarquin under any circumstances, I doubt Elan would ever suggest she'd done anything wrong, though he might be sad. If she killed him right now, while he's actively attacking Roy and a couple other people Elan might be kind of attached to...I'd expect Elan to yell I LOVE YOU!)

Taelas

2013-09-04, 06:50 PM

pendell

2013-09-04, 07:45 PM

While Elan would be happy to see the Order survive instead of his father, I kind of doubt that he would be quite that ecstatic about the death of his father. Especially since Tarquin's destruction in no way guarantees the Order's survival.

Elan is a naive and incredibly good person. If he had his druthers Tarquin would repent of his terrible deeds and both he and Elan's mom would remarry, Nale would be raised, Roy would be adopted, and everyone would live happily ever after.

However, this is not the world Elan lives in and he is *just now* starting to come to terms with it.

He will stop his father, but he doesn't want him dead. No more than he wanted Nale dead.

Elan is very fortunate to be the protagonist of a story with a sympathetic author who believes in the ultimate triumph of good over evil. I've been reading books on World War II these past few weeks, and for soldiers in real wars idealism tends to die VERY brutally indeed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-09-04, 08:54 PM

You know, the soldiers have to be ADJACENT to V to have an AoO. Also, He should be able to pass his Concentration Check!

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet. Also, V's Constitution is really low; if the line from SS&DT is right, single digit range. That results in a penalty on the Concentration Check.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-04, 08:59 PM

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet. Also, V's Constitution is really low; if the line from SS&DT is right, single digit range. That results in a penalty on the Concentration Check.
Ranks matter more than ability score bonus, and as I demonstrated above she was able to make similarly-difficult concentration checks (albeit with a +2 competence bonus that may have been canceled out by a -2 circumstance penalty) six levels ago. Not that any of it matters; if the Giant wants V to save the day, she'll make her concentration checks.

Emanick

2013-09-04, 09:00 PM

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet. Also, V's Constitution is really low; if the line from SS&DT is right, single digit range. That results in a penalty on the Concentration Check.

Still, V probably has a maxed Concentration skill, which means s/he will automatically roll an 19 or higher on any Concentration check (1 + 18 ranks), minus any Constitution penalty. Since the DC for ignoring damage is equal to the amount of damage dealt, IIRC, V shouldn't have a problem casting through crossbow bolt damage unless the soldiers are using heavy crossbows, roll a 10 for damage and score a critical hit - and even then, V still needs to roll a 1 to fail the Concentration check.

No, the real problem for V's Concentration are the incoming dinosaurs. As well as, of course, Laurin.

Yendor

2013-09-04, 09:18 PM

I hesitate to point out the obvious solution... Haley, with a considerable amount of sneak attack and a serious reason to be upset with Tarquin is standing a couple of paces away from him.

I wonder if a better option would be to sneak attack Laurin. She'd be much easier to take down, Tarquin and pals would have a harder time getting home without her (and the army is screwed), and it would be interesting for Laurin to see how much Tarquin really cares about her.

JCAll

2013-09-04, 09:26 PM

Funny Question: Can Durkon dominate the dinos?

Rakoa

2013-09-04, 09:29 PM

I wonder if a better option would be to sneak attack Laurin. She'd be much easier to take down, Tarquin and pals would have a harder time getting home without her (and the army is screwed), and it would be interesting for Laurin to see how much Tarquin really cares about her.

Now THAT would be hilarious. Laurin dies and Tarquin's entire army starves to death in the desert. Possibly Tarquin, too.

Yendor

2013-09-04, 09:34 PM

Now THAT would be hilarious. Laurin dies and Tarquin's entire army starves to death in the desert. Possibly Tarquin, too.

There are flying dinos in the army, so Tarquin can escape. He might have trouble with food and water without Malack around.

Ramien

2013-09-04, 09:36 PM

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet. Also, V's Constitution is really low; if the line from SS&DT is right, single digit range. That results in a penalty on the Concentration Check.

AoO range for archers is nil. Ranged weapons do not threaten squares, so do not provoke AoO. Ranged characters ready actions to disrupt spellcasting, but cannot gain AoO from them.

Scow2

2013-09-04, 09:39 PM

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet.Nope. Archers have absolutely no Threaten range (otherwise, all the lockdown builds in D&D would be archers, and Rogues would use ranged weapons exclusively). In fact, wielding a ranged weapon provokes AoO's

Ghost Nappa

2013-09-04, 10:42 PM

Belkar and Roy can't just use Durkula and the fiend as DR-meat shields?

Ramien

2013-09-04, 11:13 PM

Belkar and Roy can't just use Durkula and the fiend as DR-meat shields?

Considering they're surrounded? Nope. Archers can fire from the sides or even over the rift.

What's worse, assuming that the numbers being bandied about earlier are correct, even counting the fiend and dwarf as cover wouldn't matter, since if everyone already needs a natural 20 to hit, what's another penalty?

Snails

2013-09-05, 12:13 AM

Funny Question: Can Durkon dominate the dinos?

No. Dominate Person does not work on random creatures. Dominate Monster is a different spell and covers most everything. Dominate Animal is a low level Druid or Animal cleric domain spell.

However, dominating the human riders will have the desired effect. The dinos themselves are happy to be directed to by their riders to eat random mammals. Once the rider directs a dino to rampage in a general direction, they are not likely to stop.

Flame of Anor

2013-09-05, 12:17 AM

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet.

You're thinking of sneak attack range.

e1_conquistador

2013-09-05, 01:52 AM

Technically, this *could* be a winnable fight. Without the blood-plasma screen, the fiends'll have to send Varsuvius back, who can really lay some AoE hurt on mooks. Durkon & the devil are invincible to everything but the dinos, and Roy's a lean, mean, mook-cleaving machine. Belkar...well, Belkar very honestly could bite the bullet....'hoping not, though. We've already had 3 characters get toasted in this desert, 4 if you count Durkon (I don't). Five would be little ridiculous.

Exit stage left!

137beth

2013-09-05, 04:02 AM

For archers, I believe the AoO range is thirty feet. Also, V's Constitution is really low; if the line from SS&DT is right, single digit range. That results in a penalty on the Concentration Check.

No, ranged weapons cannot be used for AoOs, ever. No exceptions. Also, even if they have melee weapons as backup, non-flying people cannot make AoOs against a flying wizard. Or against a rogue with a wand who is well out of melee range.

Souhiro

2013-09-05, 06:00 AM

I have my two cents:

Ah.- As someone said, Tarkin is wrong genre savvy, but not for the above reasons, but because Elan isn't the hero. Roy is. Elan is a comic sidekick in his development arc. He can use the rules of drama, but he failed in just one variable.
Bee.- Tarquin can nullify Elan's quip-based fighting prowess with counter-quips. BUT I'm positive that the counter-quip has to be efective. "You fight like a cow" cannot be countered with "I am rubber, you are glue", thus Elan can improve his quips to the point that Tarquin ends flat-footed to answer them.
Say.- I'm also positiva that the lastest strips are meant to rub on our faces that "He's EVIL. Maybe you like him because all he has said and done, but he's just an evil guy who gloats on himself and his evil deeds"

===

Sorry for my awful grammar. Yo hablo Español
Feel free to correct it and rub my mistakes on my ugly face: It's the only way to learn!
Olé!

Sungrass

2013-09-05, 07:42 AM

Say.- I'm also positiva that the lastest strips are meant to rub on our faces that "He's EVIL. Maybe you like him because all he has said and done, but he's just an evil guy who gloats on himself and his evil deeds"
We liked him because he was a magnificent bastard. Yes, he was evil... But he was so damn classy about it.

Now he's just being a crude bastard, just for the hell of it.

Klear

2013-09-05, 08:22 AM

Each system is different. Battlesystem and Chainmail are rules intensive tabletop miniatures games, with complex systems meant to simulate fantasy warfare. D&D Minatures is a rules light system, meant for quick and fun battles where you ask: who would win in a fight between Regdar, Elminster, Raistlin Majere, Count Strahd von Zarovich, an Adult Red Dragon and a Dire Badger, vs. Mialee, 5 Wights, 20 Hobgoblin Archers, a Flumph, Driz'zt DoUrden, Mordenkainen and an Aspect of Lolth. Why are these characters fighting? Who cares, I wanna know who'd win!

A Skill Challenge to resolve mass combat is resolved like any other Skill Challenge, with a probable caveat that if the PCs get three failures before getting the required number of successes (either vs. opposed rolls or vs. a set DC) they lose a number of Healing surges and are forced to retreat or are taken prisoner. Even in this case, the Complexity of the Skill Challenge and it's Level would be determined by the nature of the battle. If the PCs are leading an army against another, the Complexity might be higher, since the PCs need to manage their forces, delegate tasks and anticipate enemy tactics. That implies a Complexity Three or Four Challenge, but the level should be equal to, or two to three levels lower than, the PCs' level. If the PCs are being besieged by an enemy, and they're on their own, I would not make the complexity higher than Two or Three, but the Level should be much higher. Basically there's more to do when the PCs are in charge of an army, but because they have help (officers, sargeants) and men to fight the battle, the DC of the skill checks are lower, than if the PCs are trying to keep themselves alive long enough to escape a huge army. In the latter case, there's less to do, but the tasks are harder (higher DC, greater XP award if they succeed).

That's a very detailed answer and it is certainly interesting, but it utterly fails at answering my question, that is, how would a typical GM run this battle in a real campaign. Thanks anyway.

Kish

2013-09-05, 09:35 AM

pendell

2013-09-05, 09:38 AM

Or option 4: Thousand Heartless Battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6_26Agicbk). Each character takes on a thousand mooks , so as long as there are only a thousand mooks or less for each character, no problem. It's when mook 1001 shows up that you might have trouble.

ETA: We saw what happens in OOTSworld when a very high level character (such as Xykon) takes on a bunch of mid-level ones (the entire Sapphire Guard). Which is , he so thoroughly dominates them he can take the time to let them think they have a chance before wiping them all in the most humiliating way possible.

...

ASSUMING they don't have a trump card of some kind. Which Soon and the Sapphire Guard did .

Xykon would have been destroyed if Miko hadn't shattered the sapphire.

Which is why I recommend Roy and company fleeing. Assuming that , just because you're facing a lot of low-level mooks, that this is the sum total of the threat they present, is a good way to get killed when an unexpected trump card comes into play.

Remember Malack's lecture to Durkon about the concept of "attrition". It may be that this first wave is only to immobilize or wear down the heroes before the actual mortal blow falls from somewhere else.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

AKA_Bait

2013-09-05, 09:38 AM

I'm positive that the counter-quip has to be efective. "You fight like a cow" cannot be countered with "I am rubber, you are glue", thus Elan can improve his quips to the point that Tarquin ends flat-footed to answer them.

I just want to say that I deeply appreciate you making this reference.

Marlowe

2013-09-05, 09:44 AM

No, ranged weapons cannot be used for AoOs, ever. No exceptions.

Well, ONE exception. There's a spell called Arrow Mind (Wizard 1/Ranger something) that lets you use a bow without provoking AoO and also threaten adjacent squares. Useful to a Ranger or to an Archery Rogue with a Wizard dip. Not likely to be a factor here.

Klear

2013-09-05, 09:51 AM

While there are rules for large-scale battles, I'm actually not sure there are rules for "army vs. high-level party." Generally in such circumstances the DM is encouraged to either:
1) Have the PCs direct an army of their own.
2) Run it as a series of smaller-scale encounters.
3) In the name of seldom-invoked realism, tell the PCs, "It's an army. There are six of you. I don't care how powerful you are, you find a way to flee, you surrender, or you all die."

None of those really fits this situation.

I think the third one fits just fine =P

I'm positive that the counter-quip has to be efective. "You fight like a cow" cannot be countered with "I am rubber, you are glue", thus Elan can improve his quips to the point that Tarquin ends flat-footed to answer them.

I never realized that the Elan/Tarquin duel was essentially insult swordfighting. Cool. Now I'm kinda sad that a three-headed monkey didn't show up...

Kish

2013-09-05, 09:53 AM

I think the third one fits just fine =P
So...you think this is going to be the end of the comic? 'Cause Tarquin obviously isn't going to accept surrender or let them flee.

pendell

2013-09-05, 10:03 AM

So...you think this is going to be the end of the comic? 'Cause Tarquin obviously isn't going to accept surrender or let them flee.

Of course not. The Giant has already told us there will be two more books on these forums. Tarquin cannot stop them fleeing into the rift. Barring Tarquin calling off his army or some new player entering the fray or Vaarsuvius returning, it's the only realistic option.

And even if Vaarsuvius does return, I'm not sure fighting a last stand out here in the desert against the Empire of Blood is their best option even if they do win.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

SavageWombat

2013-09-05, 10:51 AM

There - is that better now?

pendell

2013-09-05, 11:05 AM

917 answers many questions. Looks like we're in "thousand heartless battle" territory. The rift is not an option because the mooks have blocked it off.

Tarquin really sent low level mooks to kill the entire party, and then just walked away? Really?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

WindStruck

2013-09-05, 11:09 AM

Yeah, Roy is doing really well with that great cleave. Killed 5 in one swing. God, he could probably kill nine.

Also a really stupid move by Tarquin... unless.... he wanted his exposition army to die? I suppose whatever "secrets" they know die with them. :smalltongue:

Still, what a waste...

Sky_Schemer

2013-09-05, 11:13 AM

Tarquin really sent low level mooks to kill the entire party, and then just walked away? Really?

That's how the villain always does it.

Which means Tarquin just proved that Roy is the hero here. Tarquin is so far gone he doesn't even recognize his own tropes.

Joe the Rat

2013-09-05, 11:23 AM

Taelas

2013-09-05, 01:02 PM

Technically, he could kill up to 8 (one in each adjacent square). Or are we allowed a 5-foot step whilst Cleaving?

Yes. ........

Flame of Anor

2013-09-05, 02:11 PM

Yes. ........

So he could actually kill thirteen in one swing with Great Cleave and a five-foot step.

SoC175

2013-09-05, 02:52 PM

BUT I'm positive that the counter-quip has to be efective. "You fight like a cow" cannot be countered with "I am rubber, you are glue", thus Elan can improve his quips to the point that Tarquin ends flat-footed to answer them.Well, since "You fight like a cow" is already a counter you can't win with it anyway :smalltongue:

Snails

2013-09-05, 04:07 PM

Taelas

2013-09-05, 04:17 PM

No 5-foot step during a Great Cleave. The Superior Cleave feat/ability allows that.

But it hardly matters. Roy's full iterative attack is so overwhelming to these soldiers that the exact mechanics of when he steps is not very important. He can kill up to 8, step 5 feet, then swing twice more at anything he can reach.

A reach weapon would be so beautiful here, I would cry.

Right. Forgot Cleave had that limitation.

Mea culpa!

So to summarize, if Roy downs something on his first attack, he can Great Cleave what remains within reach for as long as he downs his targets, then take a 5-foot step, and if he downs something with his second attack, he can Great Cleave the remainder within reach again, as long as he keeps one-shotting them.

Which he should.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-09-05, 04:21 PM

We liked him because he was a magnificent bastard. Yes, he was evil... But he was so damn classy about it.

Now he's just being a crude bastard, just for the hell of it.

First thing about Magnificent Bastards. They're required to be Bastards before anything else.

Just like the operative word is Affable Evil is Evil.

Thus, an Affable Evil Magnificent Bastard (like people think of Tarquin as) is at core an Evil Bastard.

Thanks for the correct on AoOs vs Sneak Attack. I've been on a Basic kick lately since Wizards is selling the pdfs again, and forgot the rules.

pendell

2013-09-05, 06:42 PM

I guess what's flabbergasting me is Tarquin's stunning ineptitude in deploying troops. No casters ? No healers? Just low level mooks rushing a high-level fighter?

He knows just how good Roy is because he saw him in the Arena personally.

For a person who was supposed to be an incredibly gifted and talented general who conquered many nations, simply throwing the lives of his troops away in human wave attacks is stunningly crazy. Is he relying on narrative convention to get the job done?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-05, 06:47 PM

I guess what's flabbergasting me is Tarquin's stunning ineptitude in deploying troops. No casters ? No healers? Just low level mooks rushing a high-level fighter?
As you've pointed out, the main effect this deployment has had has been to keep Roy and company pinned in place. Either Tarquin is a Budyonny-esque commander, or he wants Roy and company pinned in place for some reason.

pendell

2013-09-05, 10:27 PM

Either Tarquin is a Budyonny-esque commander

I doubt this is true. Budyonny is the sort of commander who only "works" when you are the soldier of a national army who has many, many, many more men than the other side and is perfectly willing to sacrifice them all to accomplish the goal.

Any military commander worth his salt, of course, will spend men to achieve an objective. But even if you care nothing about the lives of the troops as people (and what lawful evil commander does?) you should still care about the lives of the troops *as resources*. Ten thousand men sacrificed to win a battle today are ten thousand less men to exploit the opportunity created by that won battle tomorrow. Thus any sacrifice of troops must be for some commensurate gain. Sacrificing a million men to win the battle of Stalngrad is justified to such a commander. Sacrificing a million men for a glass of water is criminal.

That tends to be especially true of mercenary troops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottieri), which Tarquin and Malack both acted as, at one time or another. Among mercenaries, the entire point is to maximize your income while minimizing your losses , which must be replaced and expensively trained.

I should think a person who 1) was a good enough steward of resources to conquer many countries 2) had to fight a defensive battle against overwhelming forces (when he lost his empire) 3) had to do the mercenary career would understand all about economy of force.

Evidently not.

So why did he send a pack of mooks into what he must have known would be expensive in terms of casualties?

It can't be because he didn't know the quality of the opposition. He'd seen Roy firsthand and fought with him. He'd seen vampirized Durkula up close.

He must have known he was sending mooks against high-level adventurers. So why do it?

I'd have expected the mooks to be backed up by high-level characters of their own. Use the mooks to fix the enemy, use the high-levels as a hammer to smash the now immobile enemy.

But this didn't happen.

Is he operating on laws of drama rather than on any principles of military success? That when heroes face off with an overwhelming army, they kill lots of them but they eventually go down, and there's no way to circumvent this fate because laws of plot prevent a simple and clean ending?

I haven't the slightest clue what he's thinking.

It's a good thing there's no one above him in the EOB, as any commander witnessing this would have broken Tarquin to the ranks and made him lead the next charge personally.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Sky_Schemer

2013-09-05, 10:31 PM

Is he operating on laws of drama rather than on any principles of military success? That when heroes face off with an overwhelming army, they kill lots of them but they eventually go down, and there's no way to circumvent this fate because laws of plot prevent a simple and clean ending?

I haven't the slightest clue what he's thinking.

He thinks he's in a story where the hero's mentor is brutally killed in front of him, forcing the hero to learn to stand on his own and eventually grow up to face down the main villain in a quest for revenge.

What he doesn't realize is that he's in the story where the minor, overconfident villain sends in his mooks to kill the hero and then foolishly walks away before it's done, not realizing that the hero prevails against overwhelming odds.

Because he doesn't really know who the hero is, or who the villain is.

SoC175

2013-09-06, 12:07 AM

I guess what's flabbergasting me is Tarquin's stunning ineptitude in deploying troops. No casters ? No healers? Just low level mooks rushing a high-level fighter? Well, his 1st level warriors are easy enough to come by, so why don't use them to soften Roy up?

He likely hasn't that many first level casters to pick at Roy one 1st level magic missle at a time to make a real differences that it's worth to endanger them to counter attacks.

Is he relying on narrative convention to get the job done? Likely his present party members will finish them once the mooks took aways enough hitpoints

WindStruck

2013-09-06, 04:01 AM

Yeah, I'm starting to think that this army only is there just for "show". Apparently they went to the imperial sword-fighting academy.

Klear

2013-09-06, 04:21 AM

Well, since "You fight like a cow" is already a counter you can't win with it anyway :smalltongue:

Well, it is still an insult. I believe it could be used against Guybrush:

"You fight like a cow!"
"How appropriate, you fight like a dairy farmer."
- instant loss.

I suppose it could be countered with the good old "Your ass is grass", though.

What he doesn't realize is that he's in the story where the minor, overconfident villain sends in his mooks to kill the hero and then foolishly walks away before it's done, not realizing that the hero prevails against overwhelming odds.

I don't see him walking away...

Cifer

2013-09-06, 05:14 AM

I'm actually more surprised by how well Roy handles Durkon's vampirization. Now he's had some experience with evil team-mates, but utilizing supernatural evil powers like Spiky and the vampiric gaze as quickly and efficiently as he does is impressive.

Sky_Schemer

2013-09-06, 07:08 AM

I don't see him walking away...

1st panel of the 2nd page. It's clearly his intention to walk away since he starts doing it.

Marlowe

2013-09-06, 07:48 AM

As far as Tarquin's apparent sudden ineptitude is concerned, he may very well just be on the "Testing the enemies strength with the lives of his men" phase of the battle. If the Zulus were ruthless enough to do I'm sure Tarquin is. So far he's only seen Roy facing a single opponent.

More debatably, the game "Great General, the Shouting" has a number of main stats, such as Battlefield Leadership (how good you are at inspiring your troops, possibly including personal fighting ability if that's not a separate stat), Tactics (how good you are at moving troops around to advantage in combat), Strategy (how good you are at manuevering out of combat), Grand Strategy (how good you are at manuevering and planning to manuever while the enemy is still a possibly hypothetical threat hundreds of miles away), Logistical Organisation (how good you are at feeding and equipping your troops while keeping them mobile and on-form) and Politicking (both within your organisation/faction and out of it).

It's entirely possible to be merely average at best in a few of these and still be a "Great General". Charles XII of Sweden, to take an extreme example, seems to have had natural 18s in BL and T, and a decent score in LO, and a solid set of 8s in everything else. Friedrich the Great had an excellent tactics score, but his Strategy and Politicking left a bit to be desired. Napoleon scores highly in most...but towards the end at least seemed to show some age-related penalty to Tactics, in which he'd never been stellar.

TL:DR: It's entirely possible that Tarquin is a great general on the basis of factors that have nothing to due with the tactical employment of troops in combat. Especially since he's a master schemer, organiser (it must be presumed, or this three-man con would have collapsed a long time ago), and personal combatant.

pendell

2013-09-06, 08:59 AM

Good points. Another thought is that if the mooks do eventually win they'll get an XP award and level up. No high-levels means the XP doesn't have to be shared with them.

A small force of level 3 and level 4 fighters would be of immeasurable value on the battlefield, given how many level 1s there are in the world.

Regardless, I guess the main conclusion is that Tarquin is operating on drama logic and game logic. Military logic takes a distant third place. Since he lives in a world where both have the force of laws of nature he may be better suited to running a campaign in OOTSworld than, say, Erfworld's Parson might be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-09-06, 09:13 AM

Klear

2013-09-06, 10:06 AM

1st panel of the 2nd page. It's clearly his intention to walk away since he starts doing it.

I think he's just moving around during the conversation. If he wanted to leave, he'd head to Laurin for a teleport or call a pterosaur, he wouldn't just walk away into the desert.

Flame of Anor

2013-09-06, 12:54 PM

Sky_Schemer

2013-09-06, 04:10 PM

I think he's just moving around during the conversation. If he wanted to leave, he'd head to Laurin for a teleport or call a pterosaur, he wouldn't just walk away into the desert.

He's barely moved at all during the last two strips, and the first time was to address Kilkil specifically. The second time, he's walking away from Elan and waving his hand dismissively in the air as he does it. If that's not turning your back on someone and leaving then I don't know what is.

What stops him is Elan's accusation. But he was still leaving.

He'd walk away for the dramatically appropriate distance and then catch a teleport.

:smallbiggrin:

Klear

2013-09-06, 06:55 PM

He's barely moved at all during the last two strips, and the first time was to address Kilkil specifically. The second time, he's walking away from Elan and waving his hand dismissively in the air as he does it. If that's not turning your back on someone and leaving then I don't know what is.

I think it was a kin of gesture. Plus, turning and pretending to be leaving gives Elan a perfect opportunity for a retort. That's obviously his intention.

Silverionmox

2013-09-07, 07:12 AM

Well, he does have a MBA from a prestigious fighter college.
And obviously that prepared him well to have a colleague that is a bloodsucking monstrosity that sees humans as resources. :smallwink:

Rogar Demonblud

2013-09-07, 06:19 PM

Honestly, at the MBA level there was probably a lot of theoretical work, kind of like Parson and Jack at the simulation table. Given Roy's INT, he was probably a difficult opponent in wargaming scenarios.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-07, 09:08 PM

I have been in similar situation before with another devil the bearded devil at lvl 3 in PF. The devil was summoned to guard a town and we ran into when it was alone and none of the party actually knew in game how scarey that thing is. We lost one party member and my cleric got infected with the disease of the beard before we fled. We were away from any civilization and the DM had let me reroll fort checks otherwise I would have just died from the disease, which would have meant a further depleted party now with no divine caster. Yea no one had the magical silver weapons to hurt it and the arcane caster had only elemental damage spells prepared which won't hurt a bearded devil with its immunities and resistances.

What sort of sick, sadistic DM would sic a Bearded Devil on a 3rd level party? :smallmad:

That's a very detailed answer and it is certainly interesting, but it utterly fails at answering my question, that is, how would a typical GM run this battle in a real campaign. Thanks anyway.

While there are rules for large-scale battles, I'm actually not sure there are rules for "army vs. high-level party." Generally in such circumstances the DM is encouraged to either:
1) Have the PCs direct an army of their own.
2) Run it as a series of smaller-scale encounters.
3) In the name of seldom-invoked realism, tell the PCs, "It's an army. There are six of you. I don't care how powerful you are, you find a way to flee, you surrender, or you all die."

None of those really fits this situation.

I think the third one fits just fine =P

No it doesn't, because it's called "railroading". A series of small skirmishes, a large-scale miniatures battle using Battlesystem, Chainmail or D&D Minis, or a 4E style skill challenge is preferable. All three of these options allow players to maintain control of their actions in battle, as opposed to a "Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies" situation.

Of course not. The Giant has already told us there will be two more books on these forums. Tarquin cannot stop them fleeing into the rift.

The rift is not an option because the mooks have blocked it off.

I love how everyone was so certain that Roy would call for them to go jump into the Rift because they couldn't fight back. Now they can't jump into the Rift, and they're fighting back. :smallamused:

Yendor

2013-09-07, 09:14 PM

I love how everyone was so certain that Roy would call for them to go jump into the Rift because they couldn't fight back. Now they can't jump into the Rift, and they're fighting back. :smallamused:

I would have thought that the fact the rift leads to the middle of an ocean would limit its viability as an escape option, but apparently that wasn't enough to stop it being suggested about seventy thousand times.

Kish

2013-09-07, 09:22 PM

I would have thought that the fact the rift leads to the middle of an ocean would limit its viability as an escape option,

Roy agreed.

but apparently that wasn't enough to stop it being suggested about seventy thousand times.
Welcome to the forums.

Lightning Fast

2013-09-07, 09:36 PM

Thing is, both Roy and Belkar have been shown to excel at destroying mooks, and Durkon is a vampire cleric. Granted, his race/template combo isn't optimal, but he's a VAMPIRE CLERIC.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-07, 09:52 PM

Thing is, both Roy and Belkar have been shown to excel at destroying mooks, and Durkon is a vampire cleric. Granted, his race/template combo isn't optimal, but he's a VAMPIRE CLERIC.

Belkar is currently sub-optimal at fighting anything, because his Constitution score is in the toilet. Until he gets a Restoration spell from Durkon, he's benched.

Vampire isn't that suboptimal for Durkon; Vampires are immune to most causes of Fort saves, and the only way he suffers is losing a few hit points. He keeps his bonus to saves vs. spells, his bonus to hit Orcs and Goblins, his Dodge bonus vs. Giants, and other racial abilities, and gains a hefty bonus to Strength and a half dozen feats that benefit a melee Cleric.

Taelas

2013-09-07, 10:07 PM

He probably hasn't even lost that many hit points. The average of a d12 is 6.5, and the average of a d8 is 4.5. Assuming average HP the entire way, Durkon-as-a-vampire has around 96 HP. If live Durkon had 16 Con (and we have no evidence of his Con other than his racial +2), he had 108 HP. Granted, it could have been even higher, but it could also have been lower, and if it were lower, he would actually have gained HP on the change from d8 -> d12 on average. (15 Con means 84 HP on average.)

Amphiox

2013-09-07, 10:22 PM

No it doesn't, because it's called "railroading". A series of small skirmishes, a large-scale miniatures battle using Battlesystem, Chainmail or D&D Minis, or a 4E style skill challenge is preferable. All three of these options allow players to maintain control of their actions in battle, as opposed to a "Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies" situation.

I would not call that railroading, because there are multiple options for the players to take (surrender, negotiate, attempt to flee, fight....).

But in the spirit of "show, don't tell", it would be more effective for the DM not to just tell them so, but after telling them that the army is "beyond counting" or whatever, give the option of choosing to fight. And if they do so choose, just keep the infinite mooks coming until they either realize the fight is unwinnable and try to think of other options, or they get TPKed.

It could turn into a 300-style epic futile last stand. A clever GM could easily put in breather spaces to give the players a chance to reassess their strategies. Say have them fight for a whole day, with the enemy breaking off attacks when the sun sets. Or the enemy commander will break off attacks at set intervals and send a demand to the party to surrender. And the mook army could gradually call in higher and higher level reinforcements, elite units and the like, special forces teams that are level 10, generals and field marshals that are level 15, combat spellcasters, and so forth.

The army is simply another version of an Inappropriate CR level encounter which the party cannot survive in straight out combat, and which they must figure out another way of surmounting. From a storytelling and gameplay point of view a single epic level Red Dragon and a 10 million strong horde of enemy mooks can serve the same purpose.

I would have thought that the fact the rift leads to the middle of an ocean would limit its viability as an escape option, but apparently that wasn't enough to stop it being suggested about seventy thousand times.

Said hypotheses are based on the premise that the Giant isn't showing us all these scenes of the world beyond the rifts just to have us stare and drool at pretty pictures, and that the said world is going to factor into the storyline at some point, somehow.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-07, 10:39 PM

Said hypotheses are based on the premise that the Giant isn't showing us all these scenes of the world beyond the rifts just to have us stare and drool at pretty pictures, and that the said world is going to factor into the storyline at some point, somehow.

There's a difference between showing the readers glimpses of the World in the Rift, and immediately moving the story to that world. I fully expect the OotS to visit that world, but not before they head to Kraagor's Tomb.

Ramien

2013-09-07, 10:51 PM

There's a difference between showing the readers glimpses of the World in the Rift, and immediately moving the story to that world. I fully expect the OotS to visit that world, but not before they head to Kraagor's Tomb.

I think the next few strips will decide when they're going to enter that world.

I will admit to being premature in expecting them to jump in when I thought they would because they're not together. The party's been split for so long one way or another that they need going to all go in together. So at bare minimum, V needs to get free and rejoin everyone else so the tactical situation can be better assessed.

I wonder what Blackwing will say when it sees that the world inside the gate is a lot closer than it was before.

pendell

2013-09-07, 10:53 PM

I would have thought that the fact the rift leads to the middle of an ocean would limit its viability as an escape option,

As opposed to fighting an entire division of an army? I'll take probable death over certain death any day. And sometimes in looking at the story I forget it operates by game rules and not by real world rules. And in the real world, you do NOT take on thousand to one odds regardless of how high level you are.

At any rate, the battle is not over yet. Still, if Roy and co. can hold out for an hour, Vaarsuvius will rejoin them. Then they have to consider whether they can get Tarquin to call off the attack, escape using wind walk or something like, or dive through the rift.

Make no mistake: However many mooks Roy kills, the only way this battle is winnable is if Tarquin is willing to concede defeat. He has the resources of the entire Empire of Blood and his own adventuring party to call on. We know they've encountered at least one adventuring party before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).

That ... or the party manages to kill Tarquin? Or take him hostage?

Funny thing, that. Given their last encounter Tarquin is probably capable of taking down much of the order all by himself.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

homeosapiens

2013-09-07, 11:18 PM

After dusk this army is a goner. For eg. Durkon could create couple of spawns, restore belkar and heal everyone. Dusk is coming in next 1-3 strips probably.

The difference between dragon and 10 000 man army is substantial. They can wipe floor with 10k people with full powered party pretty easyly. ABD for example would wipe floor with them.

Easy way tactic:
5x stoneskin
Durkon doesnt need.

What can army do?

****!

Before they kill someone the party will probably kill around... all of them!

Level doesnt matter vs army? ... So you say that someone like hearta couldn't 1 hit k.o. an army like this?

WindStruck

2013-09-08, 04:58 AM

Realistically, Roy and Belkar would start getting tired... on the other end of the spectrum you'd think some of the mooks witnessing Roy mow down 8 of them at a time might think, "Hey, it's a bad idea getting close to that guy!"

Also, wouldn't it be hard fighting off an army while tripping over piles of dead bodies and surrounded by mountains of more dead bodies? :smallconfused:

Marlowe

2013-09-08, 10:22 AM

Also, wouldn't it be hard fighting off an army while tripping over piles of dead bodies and surrounded by mountains of more dead bodies? :smallconfused:

The Finnish army apparently reported "yes" to this in 1940.

Ghost Nappa

2013-09-08, 10:41 AM

Also, wouldn't it be hard fighting off an army while tripping over piles of dead bodies and surrounded by mountains of more dead bodies? :smallconfused:

Wouldn't it be hard to approach a trio of people surrounded by corpses and brainwashed friends and co-workers?

Ermete

2013-09-08, 11:04 AM

As opposed to fighting an entire division of an army? I'll take probable death over certain death any day.

Mmm it looks like many of you forget that, for the characters what lies in the rift is worse than death. They know that the snarl not only will kill them but "undo" them, without any chance of being resurrected...now for the moment, this sounds like a very good reason for not jumping. If they die fighting the army they might still get resurrected...in the other case...definitely not. Let me stress once again that i'm saying thia based on the knowledge we and the characters have about what lies beyond the rift...maybe what we know has been throughly manipulated :smallsmile:

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-08, 12:45 PM

As opposed to fighting an entire division of an army? I'll take probable death over certain death any day. And sometimes in looking at the story I forget it operates by game rules and not by real world rules. And in the real world, you do NOT take on thousand to one odds regardless of how high level you are.

In the "real world" would you be willing to dropped out of a helicopter into an uncharted area in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, wearing 50 lbs worth of metal that inhibits your ability to swim, holding a six foot long sword that weighs 8 lbs, along with a pack that weighs about twenty more lbs? Would it make a difference if you didn't know how far away the nearest land was? Or whether there were sharks in the water? Or you didn't know what the weather would be? Or whether the only boats around are pirates or patrols from a hostile navy?

In a world based on D&D rules, Roy stands a chance of beating Tarquin's army. It may not be a great chance, but his odds of saving the lives of his whole team are better than if they jump into the Rift.

At any rate, the battle is not over yet. Still, if Roy and co. can hold out for an hour, Vaarsuvius will rejoin them.

More like twenty minutes (or less).

Then they have to consider whether they can get Tarquin to call off the attack, escape using wind walk or something like, or dive through the rift.

If Vaarsuvius returns they get a Wizard with most of his prepared spells. If Durkon can get his spells back at dusk, then he could prepare Earthquake, Fire Storm, Mass Inflict Critical Wounds, Blade Barrier, not to mention Restoration on Belkar, bringing back the party's sexy, shoeless god of war.

Make no mistake: However many mooks Roy kills, the only way this battle is winnable is if Tarquin is willing to concede defeat.

<Darth_Vader> "I find your lack of faith in the Order of the Stick... disturbing." </Darth_Vader>

Realistically, Roy and Belkar would start getting tired...

No, they won't. The rules for fatigue and exhaustion don't apply here.

Marlowe

2013-09-08, 12:57 PM

Ramien

2013-09-08, 01:14 PM

Mmm it looks like many of you forget that, for the characters what lies in the rift is worse than death. They know that the snarl not only will kill them but "undo" them, without any chance of being resurrected...now for the moment, this sounds like a very good reason for not jumping. If they die fighting the army they might still get resurrected...in the other case...definitely not. Let me stress once again that i'm saying thia based on the knowledge we and the characters have about what lies beyond the rift...maybe what we know has been throughly manipulated :smallsmile:

But they also now know that their knowledge is flawed - there's an ocean in there, not a gods-killing abomination. The Snarl also hasn't exactly reached out and slain any of the soldiers that have ran by it yet either.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-08, 01:24 PM

Personally, I'd think that the PCs will take any option that gives them control over their manner of ending (you can call that "agency" if you like. It seems to be a buzzword recently. Although I'm not sure if it means what some people write it as meaning) over an unknown fate in the hands of a malevolent eldritch abomination. Or indeed, the certain death of drowning from wearing armour in an open ocean. Or destruction by sunlight over running water. Or simply drowning 'cause there's no land in reach.

Maybe "agency" isn't the correct term, but in terms of D&D gameplay, the OotS have a chance of winning this fight. Not a great chance, but better chances than jumping into the middle of an ocean. Given that Vaarsuvius and Blackwing might be back in ten to fifteen minutes, the OotS needs to hold out for 100 to 150 rounds, not until dusk as they currently think. Vaarsuvius could turn the tide of this battle all by herself, and combined with Durkon and "Spike" they can take the fight to Tarquin, Laurin and Miron.

Is that what the Giant will do? I don't know, but jumping into the Rift is not currently an option. Soldiers are in the way and V is AWOL.

What I'm more concerned about is Team Evil. Xylon's plan for the rifts is based on false information. Redcloak's plan for the rifts increasingly seems to be based on false information. What's actually going to happen if the bad guys win?

Something they aren't bargaining for, is all I'm guessing.

I presume that will be addressed in Book Six. :smallwink:

Emanick

2013-09-08, 01:26 PM

But they also now know that their knowledge is flawed - there's an ocean in there, not a gods-killing abomination. The Snarl also hasn't exactly reached out and slain any of the soldiers that have ran by it yet either.

They don't know that their knowledge is flawed (I'm interpreting "flawed" as "incorrect," if you meant otherwise my apologies). They know that it MIGHT be flawed, and that it is definitely incomplete. There's a huge difference there.

For all we (and the Order) know, the Snarl could still devour their soul, but it might not be able to notice them until they plunge into The Rift because of the remaining Gate, or because it hasn't been "awakened" yet, or because of some other reason. It's still taking an incredibly large, soul-imperiling risk to leap into the thing.

pendell

2013-09-08, 03:11 PM

Been thinking about this.

Can Elan save them with an illusion? Disguise them all as EOB soldiers? Then just walk out with the army? Tarquin has a ring of true seeing, so you've got to avoid him, but how many other people do? Long enough to slip away?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Armaius

2013-09-08, 03:42 PM

It just occurred to me that, while I don't know how they're going to get out of this, Roy isn't going to die. He has a special armor that Tarquin doesn't know about: plot.

Tarquin is unaware, I think, that the entire focus of the previous story arc revolved around rezzing Roy (and getting the Order back together). The story won't do the same thing twice in a row, ergo Roy is safe (well, "safe" isn't really the best word, but he's not going to die). Tarquin can throw everything he has at him, and he will come out of it alive.

pendell

2013-09-08, 04:56 PM

Roy's plot armor won't protect him from total stupidity. He learned that on top o a zombie silver dragon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

homeosapiens

2013-09-08, 05:00 PM

And where he showed that total stupidity recently? I don't see it.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-08, 05:21 PM

Roy's plot armor won't protect him from total stupidity. He learned that on top o a zombie silver dragon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

And where he showed that total stupidity recently? I don't see it.

Brian, what has Roy done recently that smacks of total stupidity to you? He's been dealt a few setbacks, but as far as I can see, his tactics have been pretty good. He used stealth and guerrilla tactics against the Linear Guild, destroyed the Gate to keep it out of Xykon's grasp, his team beat an Elder Silicon Elemental, and he's holding his own against Tarquin's Mooks. Where's the alleged stupidity?

RolkFlameraven

2013-09-08, 06:47 PM

Tris

2013-09-08, 08:54 PM

pendell

2013-09-08, 09:55 PM

Brian, what has Roy done recently that smacks of total stupidity to you? He's been dealt a few setbacks, but as far as I can see, his tactics have been pretty good. He used stealth and guerrilla tactics against the Linear Guild, destroyed the Gate to keep it out of Xykon's grasp, his team beat an Elder Silicon Elemental, and he's holding his own against Tarquin's Mooks. Where's the alleged stupidity?

He hasn't done anything totally stupid yet. The point I was making is that Roy's plot armor does not guarantee his personal safety regardless of what he does, and Roy knows this.

The person I responded to seemed to believe that Roy would win this battle by virtue of plot armor. I disagree. IF Roy wins this battle (and I don't think he will, but it's possible) he will do it with smart tactics and intelligent thinking.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

homeosapiens

2013-09-08, 10:07 PM

He hasn't done anything totally stupid yet. The point I was making is that Roy's plot armor does not guarantee his personal safety regardless of what he does, and Roy knows this.

The person I responded to seemed to believe that Roy would win this battle by virtue of plot armor. I disagree. IF Roy wins this battle (and I don't think he will, but it's possible) he will do it with smart tactics and intelligent thinking.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Still doesn't undermine that "we think he has plot armor" statement. Plot armor isn't about "why will it happen" or "why won't it happen". It's about "it will happen no matter what happens" (Roy will survive). So no matter what happens Roy will not die. Sure if he would take of armor and give mooks neck to cut, he'd die. But that's not going to happen.

This might be smart thinking and inteligence, deus ex machina or just combat prowess and smart dnd tactic. If members of TT dont interfere i think they can handle.

David Argall

2013-09-08, 10:44 PM

TRH

2013-09-08, 10:50 PM

Who are the experts who know how this fight will turn out? Roy and Tarquin.
Tarquin ordered this attack and shows no sign he considers this a close call. His army will win.
Roy is taking desperate defensive measures, the sort of thing you do to prolong a doomed existence. He too is telling us the OOTS is going to lose this fight.
Go with the experts.

Yeah, the experts expect the Order of the Stick to die, so clearly that's exactly what's going to happen, and the entire comic will be over in a strip or two. :smallconfused:

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-08, 11:53 PM

Roy and Co might be able to kill the whole army ON THE GROUND but there were a few Pteranodon's with riders out there and with out V or Haley just how do they take care of those?

If the Dino's attack using flyby attack I guess they could use readied actions or AoO's but if the Riders are archers and just strafe then this is going to get rough quickly once those airborne units come into it.

Haley began moving in to help Roy in strip #917. She could target archers or flyers with her bow, or she could try using the wands she looted from Z using her Use Magic Device skill.

Now I've also read that some people want Haley to "sneak-attack" Laurin... A high level Psi can have both improved uncanny dodge and a rather good AC. and seeing as the improved uncanny dodge is a power that lasts 1/hour level and only costs 11 PP on top of +4 VS traps its a power that is well worth the investment, I really don't see that being a good option.

I've gone on records as recommending that "Spike" grapple Laurin and Miron (in either order) and impale them on his barbs. Uncanny Dodge isn't going to help her avoid being "hugged" to death by a Barbed Devil.

He hasn't done anything totally stupid yet. The point I was making is that Roy's plot armor does not guarantee his personal safety regardless of what he does, and Roy knows this.

The person I responded to seemed to believe that Roy would win this battle by virtue of plot armor. I disagree. IF Roy wins this battle (and I don't think he will, but it's possible) he will do it with smart tactics and intelligent thinking.

Roy is using smart tactics. His goal is simple: stay alive until dusk (so Durkon can prepare spells). Roy's not aware that Vaarsuvius will return long before then, and V could turn the tide of this battle.

Ermete

2013-09-09, 06:56 AM

But they also now know that their knowledge is flawed - there's an ocean in there, not a gods-killing abomination. The Snarl also hasn't exactly reached out and slain any of the soldiers that have ran by it yet either.

I agree with what Emenick said before

More over, they have evidences that in the gate there must be something like that,

in fact

We know that Kraagor died fighting the Snarl and he was not resurrected. We know that the wife of Soon was killed by it and not resurrected either. This knowledge is supposed to be available to the characters and could definitely counts as a proof of the existance of something beyond the gate that will get them killed without any chances of resurrection.

Taelas

2013-09-09, 08:25 AM

He hasn't done anything totally stupid yet. The point I was making is that Roy's plot armor does not guarantee his personal safety regardless of what he does, and Roy knows this.

The person I responded to seemed to believe that Roy would win this battle by virtue of plot armor. I disagree. IF Roy wins this battle (and I don't think he will, but it's possible) he will do it with smart tactics and intelligent thinking.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

:smallconfused:

I think you misunderstand what 'plot armor' really means. The plot will not unfold in a way as to make Roy dying a possibility, thus Roy has plot armor. Roy cannot act so stupidly that he might die, for the plot is not going to let that happen so soon after getting him back on his feet.

Roy doesn't know that. While he is aware on some level that he is in a story, he doesn't metagame with that knowledge. (Unlike Tarquin, who abuses the Hell out of it.)

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-09, 11:46 AM

:smallconfused:

I think you misunderstand what 'plot armor' really means. The plot will not unfold in a way as to make Roy dying a possibility, thus Roy has plot armor. Roy cannot act so stupidly that he might die, for the plot is not going to let that happen so soon after getting him back on his feet.

Roy doesn't know that. While he is aware on some level that he is in a story, he doesn't metagame with that knowledge. (Unlike Tarquin, who abuses the Hell out of it.)

Plus the Giant already demonstrated that Roy has no plot armor, back in Book Three. The point was that anyone in the Order can die. Roy and Durkon have both died and come back (with Durkon coming back "wrong"), and Belkar is prophesied to die in the near future (with little likelihood of being brought back).

Brian, Harry Potter had plot armor. Roy has been shown to lack plot armor. But that doesn't mean that Roy will die every time he goes into battle against superior numbers.

pendell

2013-09-09, 12:57 PM

"Plot armor" and "plot rails" are artifacts of the concept that we are reading a story, not real life. Roy and company have no free will and do only what the Giant wants them to do. The skill of artistry is to disguise this, to give a convincing imitation of life. To the extent any action in the strip can be explained as plot armor, to that extent the simulation, the illusion, fails.

We all know the Order is going to get out of this. The only question is whether they will do so by escaping or by winning outright. The question, and the interest, lies in *how* they get out of this tricky situation. A good artist, which the Giant is, will find a plausible and believable way to resolve the situation , preferably one that was foreshadowed. In such an outcome, the phrase "plot armor" is irrelevant even though it does, of course, exist. A poor artist will pull an ending out of their .. um, creative spot, and impose an ending completely different from what the story has been building up to. The universe's gods reach down and turn the story the way they want to , mere mortals can't do anything about it. It's a way of making the mortal's lives and actions meaningless. THEN the plot armor becomes blindingly obvious, because their survival is completely unbelievable based on the rest of the story.

So I prefer not to discuss plot armor because I trust the Giant to write a credible and believable story, which means there will be plausible in-world reasons for survival, thus maintaining the illusion that we are watching people fight for their lives, rather than simply viewing a series of still pictures of stick figures.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Taelas

2013-09-09, 04:00 PM

Domino Quartz

2013-09-09, 11:36 PM

We know that Kelgar died fighting the Snarl <snip>

Who's Kelgar?

Ermete

2013-09-10, 03:08 AM

Who's Kelgar?

kraagor sorry... :)

Ramien

2013-09-10, 03:28 AM

I agree with what Emenick said before

More over, they have evidences that in the gate there must be something like that,

in fact

We know that Kraagor died fighting the Snarl and he was not resurrected. We know that the wife of Soon was killed by it and not resurrected either. This knowledge is supposed to be available to the characters and could definitely counts as a proof of the existance of something beyond the gate that will get them killed without any chances of resurrection.

They have evidence that something used to be inside the gate that would reach outside the gate and kill whatever was near. They also now have evidence that it is possible to go near the gate and not die (See Blackwing, although we don't know if V told anyone else, as well as the current gate). The question becomes when does a potential lethality seem like a better chance than a certain one?

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-10, 04:05 AM

They have evidence that something used to be inside the gate that would reach outside the gate and kill whatever was near. They also now have evidence that it is possible to go near the gate and not die (See Blackwing, although we don't know if V told anyone else, as well as the current gate). The question becomes when does a potential lethality seem like a better chance than a certain one?

I'm going to repeat something I've said before: fighting this battle is not certain death for the OotS. Jumping into an unknown ocean, through a Rift in space and time, is much less conducive to the Order's continued health than fighting this battle, as a delaying tactic, if nothing else.

In any event, the point is moot. Their path to the Rift is currently impeded by hundreds of mooks. Attempting to reach the Rift will result in dozens of Attacks of Opportunity each round. They will die faster trying to jump into the Rift, than they would if they remain where they are and fight (plus staying put and fighting might result in victory).

St Fan

2013-09-10, 04:57 AM

Roy is using smart tactics. His goal is simple: stay alive until dusk (so Durkon can prepare spells). Roy's not aware that Vaarsuvius will return long before then, and V could turn the tide of this battle.

I can't believe some people are taking it at face value that Roy's plan could be to wait for dusk. The strip is saying EXACTLY the inverse.

When Roy is calling waiting for dusk "Plan A", he's specifically joking on the fact that Plan A NEVER works. What he's saying in fact is "Time for Plan B". Waiting for dusk is completely unbelievable in their situation, he's saying that they need another tactic.

AKA_Bait

2013-09-10, 05:24 AM

They also now have evidence that it is possible to go near the gate and not die (See Blackwing, although we don't know if V told anyone else, as well as the current gate).

I think we can be pretty confident that the other members of the order don't know about Blackwing's trip to the edge of the rift. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html)

Ermete

2013-09-10, 06:24 AM

They have evidence that something used to be inside the gate that would reach outside the gate and kill whatever was near. They also now have evidence that it is possible to go near the gate and not die (See Blackwing, although we don't know if V told anyone else, as well as the current gate). The question becomes when does a potential lethality seem like a better chance than a certain one?

First, you postulate the fact that they will lose for sure in case the opt for field battle, which is not 100%. Thus, this gives to both option the quality of being "potential". So the question will become "is a highly potential dead better than a potential chance of being completely undone? :)

nevertheless I whant to try to answer your question in the way you formulated it. In this case, I will say that it becomes a better option in a world that foresees the existance of the spell "resurrection". the condition of "being dead" is less permanent in those kind of world (and characters are fully aware of that). On the other plate of the scale you have the (unquantified) possibility (and from the character point of view the certainty, based on the knowledge they collected so far) of being completely undone. No resurrection. As bonus, they don't get any afterlife.

:)

:smallsmile:

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-10, 09:02 AM

First, you postulate the fact that they will lose for sure in case the opt for field battle, which is not 100%. Thus, this gives to both option the quality of being "potential". So the question will become "is a highly potential dead better than a potential chance of being completely undone? :)

nevertheless I whant to try to answer your question in the way you formulated it. In this case, I will say that it becomes a better option in a world that foresees the existance of the spell "resurrection". the condition of "being dead" is less permanent in those kind of world (and characters are fully aware of that). On the other plate of the scale you have the (unquantified) possibility (and from the character point of view the certainty, based on the knowledge they collected so far) of being completely undone. No resurrection. As bonus, they don't get any afterlife.

And even if the Snarl doesn't immediately unmake them, and they make it through the Rift to another Material World, they're going to end up swimming in an uncharted ocean. They also don't know if Durkon has the right Focus for the Plane Shift spell to get them home, whether there are non-Snarl monsters swimming in the ocean on the other side of the rift (there could be anything including sharks, dire sharks, Sahaugin, Vodyanoi, giant fiendish squid or kraken), and whether the ocean is composed of salt water or if it's composed of sulfuric acid. There are too many unknowns to justify dashing through Tarquin's army, taking Attacks of Opportunity, and leaping into possible peril. Roy and "Spike" are killing mooks, Durkon is Dominating mooks, Haley has pulled out her bow (and she has wands looted from Z), Belkar and Mr. Scruffy are creating Concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment), and Elan has grown sick of speaking to Tarquin and is rushing to help (probably with Bardic Music). And all the Order needs to do is wait out the clock, and that clock isn't a few hours till dusk, it's a few minutes till Cedrik releases V. Then the conditions on the battlefield will change.

Flame of Anor

2013-09-10, 11:11 AM

We know that Kraagor died fighting the Snarl and he was not resurrected. We know that the wife of Soon was killed by it and not resurrected either. This knowledge is supposed to be available to the characters and could definitely counts as a proof of the existance of something beyond the gate that will get them killed without any chances of resurrection.

It has been suggested that it does not have to mean that--rather, it could mean that Kraagor is still alive inside the Riftworld (which would also have the effect of defeating Resurrection).

Tris

2013-09-10, 12:28 PM

Ermete

2013-09-11, 04:23 AM

It has been suggested that it does not have to mean that--rather, it could mean that Kraagor is still alive inside the Riftworld (which would also have the effect of defeating Resurrection).

still - you say it could, so it does not rule out the dead-dead-dead option :) (even if I actually hope that it would be the case...it would be really cool). More over, what about Soon's wife?

In any case, I was talking about the character knowledge on what will wait them in the gate, not about theories discussed by us in the forum (unless I missed a strip in which someone suggested that) :smallsmile:

To summarize, my point is that, even if we (and eventually the characters) can speculate about other options on what will happen crossing the gate, there are evidences that something horribly irreversible can occur. The fact that the consequences can be so drammatic outweights the risks of fighting the mooks (I think) :smallsmile:

Geordnet

2013-09-11, 04:19 PM

And even if the Snarl doesn't immediately unmake them, and they make it through the Rift to another Material World, they're going to end up swimming in an uncharted ocean.
That alone is a death sentence even more certain than the one they're in already. At least here they have the chance to wait until dusk for Durkon to recharge his spells.

137beth

2013-09-11, 04:30 PM

Looks like Roy did handle it, by keeping everyone alive until V returned.

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-11, 04:32 PM

Looks like Roy did handle it, by keeping everyone alive until V returned.
Not yet, and not for sure, neither from his perspective nor from ours.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-11, 04:34 PM

Not yet, and not for sure, neither from his perspective nor from ours.

True, but V is going to shift the nature of the battlefield. She's barely cast any spells since the Order entered Windy Canyon, so she's primed to rain fiery death on Tarquin's soldiers.

137beth

2013-09-11, 04:35 PM

Not yet, and not for sure, neither from his perspective nor from ours.

Hence why I said it "looks like" he handled it:smallwink:

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-11, 04:38 PM

True, but V is going to shift the nature of the battlefield. She's barely cast any spells since the Order entered Windy Canyon, so she's primed to rain fiery death on Tarquin's soldiers.
You're assuming she has ready access to the battlefield and the will to "rain firey death". I grant neither assumption.

pendell

2013-09-11, 05:11 PM

You're assuming she has ready access to the battlefield and the will to "rain firey death". I grant neither assumption.

I dunno , does V's magic have friend-or-foe capability? Arcane friend-or-foe marking (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307752-3-5-arcane-friend-or-foe-marking) is a houserule from tales of the abyss that allows a caster to predesignate certain targets as immune to his attacks, so he can drop a fireball right on top of his allies and they will take no damage.

Absent such a technique, V is going to be hard put if the bloodies decide to belt hug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarming_(military)#Swarming_and_Third_World_natio ns) the OOTS.

If V lands -- check me on this -- V can throw evocations out, but Roy can't shield him because they're surrounded. If V stays on the ground he'll be brought into melee combat.

If V flies above the air V CAN rain down death and destruction on the back ranks , but V can't do anything about the close-in targets. Also, flying in the air risks eating a disintegration beam from the psionic female.

There is another assumption as well.

We're assuming V will immediately enter the battle zone, correctly assess the situation, and take action. We don't know exactly WHERE V will appear, whether V will know what is going on, and if it isn't immediately obvious whether V will seek out the order, or stop and have a pity party.

None of which takes away from the fact that the addition of a high-level caster to team OOTS at this critical juncture is a major boost for their team, increasing OOTS' chances of survival significantly.

ETA: THought about this. What if V casts Mass Enlarge Person on the dominated soldiers? How will that tilt the battle?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

epmqy

2013-09-11, 07:14 PM

You're assuming she has ready access to the battlefield and the will to "rain firey death". I grant neither assumption.

Battles like this wouldn't be hard to hear and find, seeing as they are in a landmark-less desert. V's cast what, less than 10 spells today?

Any high-level addition to the order will help, no matter how little. Even if all V does is fly over the battlefield and cast stone skin on Belkar and Roy, that will still shift the tide that much more. V could target anything that has a slightly better chance of hurting the team with stun or suggestion.

In any case, I'd be willing to bet that V would see the party fighting an army she saw soldiers land in hell from. That should remove any doubt of whether or not they should be killed, considering that the rest of the party is being attacked by them at this very moment.

homeosapiens

2013-09-11, 07:27 PM

He will no cast MEP. Those are mooks that die in 1 round - that would be a waste of spell.

What usefull thing in current situation V can do:

Cast Fly on Haley for her to grab Elan and join with others.

Use low level enchantmens to make the group preform better in this fight.
Bear's endurance
Bulls strenght
haste
heroism
greater heroism
stoneskin

I think Stoneskin and Bear's endurance on Belkar is all the need right now. Then V can fire away.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-11, 08:36 PM

He will no cast MEP. Those are mooks that die in 1 round - that would be a waste of spell.

:smallconfused: What spell is MEP supposed to be?

What usefull thing in current situation V can do:

Cast Fly on Haley for her to grab Elan and join with others.

Use low level enchantmens to make the group preform better in this fight.
Bear's endurance
Bulls strenght
haste
heroism
greater heroism
stoneskin

I think Stoneskin and Bear's endurance on Belkar is all the need right now. Then V can fire away.

Fireball
Chain Lightning
Cone of Cold
Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)
Prismatic Spray
Bull's Strength, Mass (why cast it on just one person, when you can cast it on the whole party? :smallwink:)

zimmerwald1915

2013-09-11, 08:37 PM

:smallconfused: What spell is MEP supposed to be?
Mass enlarge person, I think.

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-11, 08:42 PM

Mass enlarge person, I think.

Ah. Yeah, that would be a sub-optimal spell to cast, given that it won't work on two of V's allies, would hinder Haley and would do nothing for Elan. That's why I recommended Mass Bull's Strength. It'll work on Durkon and Spike, and it won't hinder Haley. No two targets can be further than 30' apart, but Spike can just teleport into a convenient position to chain the whole group together for the spell.

Kish

2013-09-11, 08:45 PM

I dunno , does V's magic have friend-or-foe capability?
First point in favor of "no": Vaarsuvius blasted Elan with Cone of Cold and no one said "that has to be deliberate," and Miko's plan that involved Vaarsuvius and Durkon blasting her hinged on her having Evasion.

Second point in favor of "no": That particular D&D house rule actually seriously messes up...or at least alters...the balance of spells. One of the spells I love casting when my wizards and sorcerers is Horrid Wilting*, which is a massive damage AoE spell, but one of the things that makes it as good as it is, is that it won't hurt anyone the caster doesn't want it to hurt, and that's part of why it's an eighth-level spell; a spell which had the same effect but hurt anyone in the target area would be less powerful and thus lower level. One of the Archmage class features, Mastery of Shaping, exists solely** to permit the archmage to bend spell areas so that they avoid friendly targets; if every spell does that by default, there's no reason to ever take that high arcana.

*Vaarsuvius can never cast it; it's Necromancy, one of her/his barred schools.
**Allowing for the possibility that someone in some game found another use for it, it's still pretty obvious from the description what it was written for.

homeosapiens

2013-09-11, 10:50 PM

Mass bulls strenght is a waste of 6lv slot - only durkon and belkar benefit from it. Haleys is an archer, Elan uses Charisma, Roy got +6 belt, and V is spellcaster.

It is much better for V to cast repulsion, acid fog, mass suggestion, some ilusion or chain lighting, even mass bears endurance. Bears gives it to everyone but durkon.

Amphiox

2013-09-11, 11:33 PM

In a world with Resurrection spells, plot armor protects from Disintegrate, not from death.