Is Tarquin wholly wrong about Elan?

[pendell]

What Tarquin is doing is evil, unconscionable, and pretty much eliminates any sympathy I have for him.

That said ... when he says Elan has the makings of a real hero, not just a comedic supporting character, I don't think he's wrong.

Remember when Elan was in jail in Cliffport? He escaped from jail and came riding to the rescue in an airship.

Remember when Elan was on the Azure City refugee fleet? He chased down Kubota and brought him to justice. He and Therkla made an excellent team.

Spoilers for the origin of the PCs prequel

There would BE no OOTS if Elan had not shown Roy how to recruit the party. That's why Elan was allowed into the party at all. Roy is the leader of the OOTS, but he'd never have any followers if Elan hadn't helped him bring the team together.



All of which makes it hard to quite know what to do with Elan. He has moments of stunning competence followed by cataclysmic failure. One minute, he's a great hero. The next minute, he's a complete fool. The character is almost schizophrenic.

But there is one common theme : So far as I can tell, Elan is only incompetent when he has the luxury of being so.

When there's a Roy around, he's happy to goof off.

But when there is no Roy around, when lives are seriously at stake, then he puts aside his childish mask and starts living up to the true hero he always could be.

And yet ... and yet does OOTS *need* another hero? They've already got Roy as straight man. If Belkar dies, do they have anyone left in the party to bring the funny? How would a properly heroic Elan fit into a party where everyone else is either serious or undead?

It's almost as if Tarquin has correctly identified that Elan is a hero who is hiding behind others .. but is that really the role Elan needs to play in the story that OOTS is? Because Elan is NOT the main hero of the story and Tarquin is not the main villain. Elan is comic relief and Tarquin is a side villain. I grant there is a potential for a GREAT story with Elan as hero and Tarquin as villain , but OOTS is not that story. Tarquin correctly identifies Elan's character, but Tarquin is doing the wrong thing because he fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the story due to his own ego.

So how does this get resolved? How can Elan stay a fool and an incompetent buffoon, which has been much of his story role so far? But if Elan stops being incompetent and becomes a Julio Scoundrel-like action figure, how can he fill his proper comedic role ?

For that matter, how exactly is OOTS a comedy any more? We've seen murder, torture, a third of the party is evil, dead more than once, and vampirized. It's not reading to me like much a comedy these days. A dramatic story with forced moments of comedy at the end of each strip, perhaps, but it's an epic now, not a farce.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Nilan8888]

That's an interesting point, of course. Tarquin's psychological analysis of the situation is not necessarily WRONG. From a certain point of view, Roy DOES hold Elan back.

Of course, that's choice phrasing. Roy is just existing, and it is Elan holding himself back if anyone is. But yes, Elan does tend to become a center of attention when Roy and the main plot is set on the back-burner.

But you know, the same can be said of Haley. And V.

Durkon... eeeh, for some reason what few moments he has in the center of things happen in spite of the main plot progressing around him.



EDIT: Wait, I thin this thread should be merged or closed. We already have had a number of them. This is technically more Tarquin analysis.

[Zerter]

but he'd never have any followers if Elan hadn't helped him bring the team together.

Pretty sure a detailed reading shows that Xykon would have been destroyed pretty easily if it were not for the followers that Elan helped Roy gather ;).

[Cikomyr]

That's an interesting point, of course. Tarquin's psychological analysis of the situation is not necessarily WRONG. From a certain point of view, Roy DOES hold Elan back.

Of course, that's choice phrasing. Roy is just existing, and it is Elan holding himself back if anyone is. But yes, Elan does tend to become a center of attention when Roy and the main plot is set on the back-burner.

But you know, the same can be said of Haley. And V.

Durkon... eeeh, for some reason what few moments he has in the center of things happen in spite of the main plot progressing around him.



EDIT: Wait, I thin this thread should be merged or closed. We already have had a number of them. This is technically more Tarquin analysis.

Are you sure? This sounds more like Elan character analysis

[Unisus]

Spoilers for the origin of the PCs prequel

There would BE no OOTS if Elan had not shown Roy how to recruit the party. That's why Elan was allowed into the party at all. Roy is the leader of the OOTS, but he'd never have any followers if Elan hadn't helped him bring the team together.




You know, actually, if it had not been for Elan,...

... Roy would have a slightly smaller team of four: Himself, Durkon, and two others who get bored of storming Hell's gates... ;)

[Ubab]

To steal is, almost always (except in RPG-like) an evil act.

Tarquin is doing what he can to STEAL the history of OotS. He wants to become the main villain (in place of Xykon), and to put Elan as main hero (in place of Roy).

Maybe it's a misunderstanding about the teleology of the comic, but can be a deliberate act to make his death at the hands of his son a even more memorable and epic point! (and, possibly, later time)

[Nilan8888]

Fitting then that he should be a government-oriented, bureaucratic villain, since those are the ones who are always depicted as "stealing history"...

[BaronOfHell]

From Malack's comment in 724 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), it is my impression that Tarquin was to a certain degree similar to Elan in his own team. I wonder if Tarquin could find Elan's role in his own with his old team, he might realize he's forcing the story.
While I am not familiar with narrative structure, I imagine a story must have a certain length, not too quick or it won't be legendary, not too long, or it'll be dragged.

I agree that Elan has the capabilities of being a hero. But can't a hero be funny too, even incompetent?

[Chantelune]

I agree that Elan has the capabilities of being a hero. But can't a hero be funny too, even incompetent?

He can, as long as he's the leading man. Else, he's just the funny sidekick that's here for comic relief and make the actual hero look good and competent.

Tarquin here merely think about his own showdown with Elan and nothing more. He doesn't think about what would make a great story about him, but about what would make the best story about him. And the answer to that is having an epic showdown where his son bring him down in a grand fight that will enter the legends. Him being brought down by a party where his son is playing second banana just doesn't have the same appeal.

[Mike Havran]

That said, why should Tarquin settle for a great story when he can aim for a better one?

I don't think Elan's growth is finished yet. He may yet become the epic hero Tarquin sees in him. He'll become other kind of epic hero than Roy is, though, despite Roy being Elan's heroic idol.

[consectari]

I hate to say it, but I think Tarquin could be right. This could easily be the story of Elan and we've been misinterpreting it all along. After all, Elan is the one who blew up Dorukan's gate (even if it was by accident). Elan has proven himself to be very effective, just as Roy has proven himself at times to be very ineffective. Just because Roy is the leader, for now, doesn't mean he's the principle hero. Elan also has his fathers grasp of narrative elements and look where that got T.

How many times has the goofy, awkward screw-up been transformed by the story into a great hero?

I do think T is trying to push things faster than they are meant to, jumping from the story of Elan's time with the OOTS to the story where Elan leads his own party against his father.

I don't really believe Roy is going to be eliminated, but it wouldn't shock me either.

Ps.
This is the first mind bender the Giant has thrown at us that prompted me to sign up and post. For a while I actually began to wonder if we were going to lose Roy.

[zimmerwald1915]

This is the first mind bender the Giant has thrown at us that prompted me to sign up and post. For a while I actually began to wonder if we were going to lose Roy.
Either the forward or the preface to No Cure for the Paladin Blues (I'm AFB, no cite) comes right out and calls The Order of the Stick Roy's story, with the rest of the characters somewhere between ensemble and supporting cast. Then in the Don't Split the Party commentary that talks about following Roy into the afterlife, the Giant does it again.

[Porthos]

No, Roy is NOT holding Elan back. One of the points of the Split the Party arc was that, while Elan might be able to play the hero for a short time, he is missing a critical something when it comes to Party Leader.

Remember how he was unable to get Durkon and V to stop their childish bickering?

Remember how he was unable to save Therkla?

Let me quote from the man himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0598.html):

:elan:: Everything is so confusing now. Ever since we left Azure City, I feel like I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I try to think about what Roy would do, but... I don't know. It doesn't always work. What would Roy do about Vaarsuvius? I have no idea! I'm not smart enough to figure it out!

Yes, Elan has lots of potential. And Roy and Haley and the rest of Team OotS are helping him nurture it.

Look at Elan now compared to Strip One. Night and day. But it is the presence of Team OotS which has caused him to grow.

To kill off Roy because he is 'holding Elan back'? Poppycock.

[pendell]

Yes, Elan has lots of potential. And Roy and Haley and the rest of Team OotS are helping him nurture it.


An excellent point. And now I suppose we'll get a chance to see whether Elan has learned anything from a book's worth of nurturing and is able to stand on his own with Haley. If he does he'll be a worthy leader in his own right. If not, he'll die. Another of Tarquin's cruel tests.

Evolve or die -- that theme just keeps coming back, doesn't it?

But ... again, if he does evolve, how will he fit back into the OOTS party, which will certainly be reunited at some point?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[BaronOfHell]

I don't really believe Roy is going to be eliminated, but it wouldn't shock me either.

I too thought about this possibility, but we know that at least Durkon and Roy has more story in them. It'd be weird for Durkon not to return to his homeland and defeating Xykon without Roy having some kind of input would be very odd. Also we know the team can't cooperate well without Roy, at least that 's my impression from Don't Split the Party. Therefore if Roy and Durkon goes down now, I'm certain at least Roy will return and I'd be surprised if Durkula wouldn't be a vampire when they go north.

However Roy was already rezzed once, it could be done again, but I suppose it's a lot less likely.

So all in all, while I agree with you, I find it very unlikely, just like you, I don't really believe in it.

[tomandtish]

In his time in the Order Elan has moved from child to adolescent. But he's not ready to leave the home yet.

The conscience of a group works best in an advisory role. And Elan is beginning to fill that admirably. He isn't the leader and shouldn't be. And that's OK.

[Porthos]

An excellent point. And now I suppose we'll get a chance to see whether Elan has learned anything from a book's worth of nurturing and is able to stand on his own with Haley. If he does he'll be a worthy leader in his own right. If not, he'll die. Another of Tarquin's cruel tests.

Evolve or die -- that theme just keeps coming back, doesn't it?

But ... again, if he does evolve, how will he fit back into the OOTS party, which will certainly be reunited at some point?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You're presuming that the party gets split once again. That is not a presumption I am willing to make quite yet. :smallsmile:

===

I should have thrown this point at the end of my last post, but putting it here is probably good enuf. One of the strengths of The Order of the Stick is they all need each other.

Consider the Dream Arc. Elan being 'silly and goofy' (that is, having an optimistic view on life) helped pull Roy out of his spiral of depression. Belkar gave the swift kick in the 'nads that Roy needed when he was acting like Captain Wallow Pants.

Elan was the one to realize that they were dreaming in the first place.

And look how crippled they became when V, then Belkar, and then Durkon wandered off alone.

Team OotS functions better as a whole.

Can the characters grow and evolve? Yes. And doing so makes Team OotS stronger. But expecting Elan evolve too far away from his Happy Go Lucky, Look on the Bright Side of Life persona? No. Just no.

[pendell]

You're presuming that the party gets split once again. That is not a presumption I am willing to make quite yet.


Fair enough. Still, I don't see how the party can't be split at this point. It's ALREADY split three ways.

I believe Roy and company will have no recourse but to leap into the rift. But this will not be visible from the lip of the crater . There will be a cloud of dust from a thousand legionnaires obscuring their vision. When it is cleared, the legion will report the enemies are eliminated. And if Elan or Haley doesn't believe that and want to look for the corpses? There are a thousand legionnaires whose purpose to say "no you can't."

Besides, I suspect there will be at least ONE readily identifiable halfling corpse left. If the corpse is sufficiently... degraded ... it should be sufficient to convince any witnesses that there are the remains of THREE adventurers at the bottom of the crater, not one.

Thus Elan and Haley will have no reason to jump into the rift themselves, and every reason to start their hike across the desert ... towards Xykon, and towards Vengeance.

Not necessarily in that order.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Porthos]

Fair enough. Still, I don't see how the party can't be split at this point. It's ALREADY split three ways.

'V swoops in and saves the day' seems the most popular.

[pendell]

'V swoops in and saves the day' seems the most popular.

So far as I can tell, V still has a couple hundred rounds before V can intervene. It will be over by then. And if it isn't, there's no reason the IFCC can't call in the rest of its markers and keep V out for the better part of an hour.

If V does return, what spells does V that could turn the tide? And remember there are a potential of two epic spellcasters (blue scarf guy and the Psion) at the mouth of the crater who can get involved at that point to neutralize V.

Count me as a non-believer in V Ex Machina. Although I suppose Durkula could plane shift them if that spell hasn't yet been used.

Which would I rather see ... Roy's adventure in the rift, or Roys' adventure in the land of Ranch Dressing?

...

The first, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ramien]

Tarquin is wrong.

Elan is already a hero, and being the leader or not doesn't change that.

If anything, as others have mentioned, Roy has been a tremendous asset in helping make Elan a hero. He's apparently the first leader who's been willing to not only keep Elan around, but show him any sort of respect.

Tarquin's of the mind that you have to be the leading man in order to be the hero - he confuses 'primary protagonist' with 'hero.' Small wonder, that - he thinks that it's his story as the villain.

[Ellye]

Since OotS matured a bit, around Azure City arc or so, I've been considering Elan the true protagonist and true, even though Roy started the story.