Let's say Tarquin kills Roy, duels & scars Elan, Elan needs new PCs

[johnbragg]

I've seen a lot of people say


Yeah, because high level adventurers grow on trees, and members of team that has obviously been working together for a long time (as Tarquin said he suspected all along that OOTS were a team as soon as OOTS showed up) can just be replaced willy nilly.

or the equivalent. This ignores a facet of Tarquin's genre savvy--by this point in the story, there should be a variety of options.

So who would team up with 1990s Darker, Grittier Elan, AKA "Patch", AKA "Blondie" and Haley, plus Vampire Durkon (arrows won't do squat to him and Tarquin knows it), Vaarsuvius and maybe Belkar?

Well, Thog has already teamed up with Elan, and enjoyed the experience. Plus Other-Talky-Man killed Nale! Kill Other-Talky-Man!

Sabine wants vengeance for Nale. And the IFCC wants OOTS vs Team Evil conflict. They'd settle for OOTS Mark II vs Team Evil, and I doubt they would be bothered by OOTS Mark II vs Team Tarquin.

Gaanji the lizardman and Enor the half-dragon. Tarquin owes them a bounty, plus all their stuff, plus y'know, vengeance.

Plus Tarquin's 9th or 10th wife or wife-to-be whose name I can't quite remember Amon-something.

So there's enough characters lurking in off-stage for Elan to put a new party together if Tarquin's mooks kill Roy.

NOTE: That doesn't mean that Tarquin is right about Elan and himself being the central characters. It just means that saying "Where is Elan supposed to find high-level replacements for Roy and Belkar" fails.

[Zmeoaice]

Celia would also want to bring Tarquin to Justice.

[johnbragg]

Celia would also want to bring Tarquin to Justice.

And Julia, for that matter....

[Connington]

Please no. We're trying to put together a team that can help Elan.

[dps]

Vampire Durkon (arrows won't do squat to him and Tarquin knows it)


Wooden shafts? I think that could be a problem for a vampire.



Celia would also want to bring Tarquin to Justice.


And Julia, for that matter....

Both of those would be totally ineffective against opponents of the likely level of Tarquin's party, much less Team Evil. Celia's a pacifist and Julia like, what, level 5?

[zimmerwald1915]

Wooden shafts? I think that could be a problem for a vampire.
Why?


Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed.
1) an arrow is not a "wooden stake";
2) "ammunition that hits its target is destroyed and rendered useless"; thus an arrow cannot be counted on to remain in place to keep Durkon destroyed;
3) there's no particular reason to believe that any of these arrows will lodge themselves in Durkon's heart;
4) Durkon has DR 10/silver and magic, and there's no particular reason to believe these arrows will pierce that, let alone his heart.

Bottom line, this is OOTS, not Buffy.

[johnbragg]

Both of those would be totally ineffective against opponents of the likely level of Tarquin's party, much less Team Evil. Celia's a pacifist and Julia like, what, level 5?

On the one hand, you're right about Juila and Celia. But with Sabine, Thog, Enor and Gaanji would all be useful in a fight, and all have reasons to want vengeance on Tarquin and no reason not to work with Elan.

On the other hand, Tarquin doesn't know that. And Tarquin is betting all his chips on the Power of Plot. Julia is avenging her brother, wielding the sword of her ancestors, carrying out her father's blood oath. If this were a movie and not D&D campaign, would anyone be surprised if Julia, wielding the Greenhilt sword, could call upon her brother's fighting ability at plot-crucial moments? Buffed by her low-level sorceror abilities (i.e., Protection from Arrows, Feather Fall)

[zimmerwald1915]

If this were a movie and not D&D campaign, would anyone be surprised if Julia, wielding the Greenhilt sword, could call upon her brother's fighting ability at plot-crucial moments?
Yes. Very surprised. Particularly since Julia is about as disdainful as her father of "her brother's fighting ability".


Buffed by her low-level sorceror abilities (i.e., Protection from Arrows, Feather Fall)
Julia is a Wizard.

[Rakaydos]

On the one hand, you're right about Juila and Celia. But with Sabine, Thog, Enor and Gaanji would all be useful in a fight, and all have reasons to want vengeance on Tarquin and no reason not to work with Elan.

On the other hand, Tarquin doesn't know that. And Tarquin is betting all his chips on the Power of Plot. Julia is avenging her brother, wielding the sword of her ancestors, carrying out her father's blood oath. If this were a movie and not D&D campaign, would anyone be surprised if Julia, wielding the Greenhilt sword, could call upon her brother's fighting ability at plot-crucial moments? Buffed by her low-level sorceror abilities (i.e., Protection from Arrows, Feather Fall)

Take a few levels of Abjurant Champion? I could see that...

[Rakoa]

Need a new party member? Why not Wizard Guy?

[TRH]

Need a new party member? Why not Wizard Guy?

Might as well write up a contract for him now - their current wizard's defective. Goes AWOL constantly, I swear...:smallamused:

[Gift Jeraff]

Leeky, Pompey, Hilgya, Niu, Yakyak, Yekyek, Yykyyk, and the Katos' baby will join Elan's party.

[TRH]

Leeky, Pompey, Hilgya, Niu, Yakyak, Yekyek, Yykyyk, and the Katos' baby will join Elan's party.

Yakyak? What kind of a stupid name is Yakyak? :smallbiggrin:

[Ourgh]

With the fall of the Linear Guild, Thog is now available to hire. And as thog like not-nale, he would certainly accept to follow him. Especially if there is ice cream.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I vote Cleric of Loki. Both of them. GO TEAM CLERIC!

[Zmeoaice]

Leeky, Pompey, Hilgya, Niu, Yakyak, Yekyek, Yykyyk, and the Katos' baby will join Elan's party.

Don't forget Ywkywk

[quasit]

Nobody thought about Sir Francois, his former contractor? :smallbiggrin:

[SavageWombat]

Skip them all and hire the 80's version of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

[Solse]

So who would team up with 1990s Darker, Grittier Elan, AKA "Patch", AKA "Blondie" and Haley, plus Vampire Durkon (arrows won't do squat to him and Tarquin knows it), Vaarsuvius and maybe Belkar?

That's sorta OOtS - Roy. All that they'd need would be a new leader.

[Tock Zipporah]

Why?


1) an arrow is not a "wooden stake";
2) "ammunition that hits its target is destroyed and rendered useless"; thus an arrow cannot be counted on to remain in place to keep Durkon destroyed;
3) there's no particular reason to believe that any of these arrows will lodge themselves in Durkon's heart;
4) Durkon has DR 10/silver and magic, and there's no particular reason to believe these arrows will pierce that, let alone his heart.

Bottom line, this is OOTS, not Buffy.

1) An arrow is a wooden piercing weapon. Every campaign I've played in would call that "close enough to a 'stake' to count."
2) Saying an arrow is useless to be fired again is NOT the same as saying it doesn't remain lodged in someone's chest. It just means that by the time you pull it out, the shaft is too mangled to be fireable.
3) He's got a few DOZEN arrows firing at him at once. Mathematically speaking, if you fire enough arrows, one is bound to hit the heart on a Nat 20.
4) Silver arrows are dirt cheap. I'm sure Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to equip his "special forces" team with them in case of stray werewolf, devil, or vampire attacks. Add in a line of low-level spellcasters with magic weapon spells and you're set.

[Scow2]

4) Silver arrows are dirt cheap. I'm sure Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to equip his "special forces" team with them in case of stray werewolf, devil, or vampire attacks. Add in a line of low-level spellcasters with magic weapon spells and you're set.
Actually, Silver Arrows are quite expensive, costing 2 GP each. Petty cash for an adventurer above first level, but when you multiply it by an army, it becomes an enormous cost.

[Sikon]

Well, there are also those two outsiders Durkon almost recruited in On the Origin of PCs...

[quasit]

1) An arrow is a wooden piercing weapon. Every campaign I've played in would call that "close enough to a 'stake' to count."
2) Saying an arrow is useless to be fired again is NOT the same as saying it doesn't remain lodged in someone's chest. It just means that by the time you pull it out, the shaft is too mangled to be fireable.
3) He's got a few DOZEN arrows firing at him at once. Mathematically speaking, if you fire enough arrows, one is bound to hit the heart on a Nat 20.
4) Silver arrows are dirt cheap. I'm sure Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to equip his "special forces" team with them in case of stray werewolf, devil, or vampire attacks. Add in a line of low-level spellcasters with magic weapon spells and you're set.

Thought I think the "drive a stake" thing was intended for hammering the stake into the helpless or restrained vampire, a la coup de grace. I strongly doubt that it was intended as yet another weak sauce weakness as a combat maneuver (thought in many ambientations its a rule, ie, buffyverse) and even if so , a +8 adjust would be a bit too much to something that could be dealt with just spamming arrows at his general direction, don't you think? They are supposed to be scary and challenging, dammit!. Also scoring a nat 20 doesn't mean that it will strike his heart, in fact, being an undead makes him immune to critical hits which means that it will not hit anything more hurtfull than a normal strike would; a critical hit is an abstractions and there's few targeted attack instances on d&d 3.5 like Vorpal weapons which sever heads on a natural 20 and, incidentally, are specifically stated to work on vampires too.

[The Pilgrim]

I can't help but notice that, while Tarquin has wronged a lot of people from the plebian classes, he has not crossed any Wizard or Cleric. Or Sorcerer for that matter.

Elan would have plenty of warrior likes to substitute Roy and Belkar: O-Chul, Lien, Amun-Zora, Enor, and Thog come to mind. O-Chul and Lien are already dispatched towards Kraagors.

While Sabine and Gannji are available as rogue replacements, Haley is not dead on this scenario, so their services would be not required. Also I have a hard time believing Haley would work well with Sabine.

In the Arcane Caster department, if V doesn't survives (note that she is not in trouble right now), Elan could keep her. If V is slain, the best alternative would be to find Z's corpse and raise him. I don't see any other decent Arcane Casters around. Julia is still in wizard school and Celia wouldn't cut it neither.

In the Divine Caster department... ugh, tricky. Cleric of Loki is rather low level. And, that's about it. Elan has no means to contact Hilgia neither reason to think she would work for him or she is high level enough now to cut it.

[TroubleBrewing]

1) An arrow is a wooden piercing weapon. Every campaign I've played in would call that "close enough to a 'stake' to count."
2) Saying an arrow is useless to be fired again is NOT the same as saying it doesn't remain lodged in someone's chest. It just means that by the time you pull it out, the shaft is too mangled to be fireable.
3) He's got a few DOZEN arrows firing at him at once. Mathematically speaking, if you fire enough arrows, one is bound to hit the heart on a Nat 20.
4) Silver arrows are dirt cheap. I'm sure Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to equip his "special forces" team with them in case of stray werewolf, devil, or vampire attacks. Add in a line of low-level spellcasters with magic weapon spells and you're set.

1) So? Nothing in the rules supports this.
2) Aaaand? It won't lodge in his chest, because it can't get through his DR.
3) Again, not supported in the rules. "Nat 20" does not mean "right through the heart".
4) Vampire DR is 10/Silver and Magic. If it were just silver ammo, that's 2gp a pop. If you add in the magic cost, it's suddenly closer to 50gp an arrow. Good luck equipping an army with that. (I don't see any ranks of low-level spellcasters in that army.)

[Joe the Rat]

1) An arrow is a wooden piercing weapon. Every campaign I've played in would call that "close enough to a 'stake' to count."
2) Saying an arrow is useless to be fired again is NOT the same as saying it doesn't remain lodged in someone's chest. It just means that by the time you pull it out, the shaft is too mangled to be fireable.

4) Silver arrows are dirt cheap. I'm sure Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to equip his "special forces" team with them in case of stray werewolf, devil, or vampire attacks. Add in a line of low-level spellcasters with magic weapon spells and you're set.


1) So? Nothing in the rules supports this.
2) Aaaand? It won't lodge in his chest, because it can't get through his DR.

4) Vampire DR is 10/Silver and Magic. If it were just silver ammo, that's 2gp a pop. If you add in the magic cost, it's suddenly closer to 50gp an arrow. Good luck equipping an army with that. (I don't see any ranks of low-level spellcasters in that army.)

Keep in mind that DR isn't necessarily bullet (or arrow)-proof, just that it doesn't matter.


Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective).The classic portrayal (which D&D uses, based on the limitations and vulnerabilities) is that they shrug off attacks, usually pulling said weapon out of whichever non-cardiac organ you stick it in with a look of annoyance.

In short, a wooden stake does not have to overcome DR. But it does have to be a stake, in the heart. Whether or not arrows (or more relevant here, crossbow bolts) count as a stake is a GM call. Also keep in mind crossbow bolts aren't necessarily wooden.

On the Silver and magic. Technically you only need to have a silver bolt fired from a magic crossbow. While this is still quite pricey, magic crossbows would be more of a long-term investment for your army. I think that's unlikely to be the case, so Vampire Cleric D has little to worry about. That said, I would be surprised if Tarquin doesn't have some sort of counter-vampire contingency, brought on the off chance that Nale succeeded, and Malak needed to be held at bay until he could be talked down from killing Nale. Garlic would be sufficient, but I would not be surprised if Tarquin has a magic silver dagger somewhere on his person. Just in case.

[TroubleBrewing]

On the Silver and magic. Technically you only need to have a silver bolt fired from a magic crossbow.

This is even LESS feasible. Magic crossbows are going to run you ~2500gp each. I count at least 1,000 men in that army. The math just doesn't add up.

[littlebum2002]

Don't forget Ywkywk

Is YwkYwk a Celtic Kobold?





In the Arcane Caster department, if V doesn't survives (note that she is not in trouble right now), Elan could keep her. If V is slain, the best alternative would be to find Z's corpse and raise him. I don't see any other decent Arcane Casters around. Julia is still in wizard school and Celia wouldn't cut it neither.


Why not just raise V instead? In this hypothetical scenario, I mean.




This is even LESS feasible. Magic crossbows are going to run you ~2500gp each. I count at least 1,000 men in that army. The math just doesn't add up.

True, but since Tarquin follows the Boy Scouts motto of "be prepared", it would not surprise me if he had a "special forces platoon" of 50 soldiers or so equipped with magic crossbows, silver and cold iron bolts, and other limited-use but sometimes-necessary equipment.


Also also, while I would agree that a wooden arrow would count as a stake for the purposes of killing a vampire, I would think it is a HUGE stretch to equate "shooting from a hundred feet away" with "driving it into their body". If someone took a wood arrow and stabbed a vampire in the heart with it, I think that would kill the vampire. But once that arrow is instead shot from a bow, I would consider it to be simply an arrow and subject to the normal DR.

[Jay R]

Celia would also want to bring Tarquin to Justice.

In a pacifist way, within the legal system - which is Tarquin.


Don't forget Ywkywk

A Welsh Kobold?

[angry_bear]

At best I see a handful of soldiers, the ranking officers, the super elite, or whatever, having a couple of magical crossbows... But that's purely for the sake of storytelling purposes. The army is already a small threat for a level 14-ish adventure group; throw in a vampire wearing full plate, and they need narrative backing for this to be viewed as a serious threat.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html

That's just Belkar having fun, you throw in Roy fighting for his life, and a vamped out Durkon fighting for his friends, with a devil serving him, and you've got an army being sent into a meat grinder.

[Joe the Rat]

Again, long term investment. An elite group (as littlebum suggests) would not be ridiculously pricey. If this were the case, I'd say Durkon doesn't have anything to worry about... yet.


Is YwkYwk a Celtic Kobold?

A Welsh Kobold?

Heh. Heh heh heh. But how do you get the hair?

Mind if I sig this one?

[snikrept]

There's little chance Tarquin was able to organize an elite Vampire Killer Squad anywhere in the Empire of Blood while Malack was in charge with him. In the unlikely scenario that he did, all their crossbows are probably primed to explode when someone shouts "Xxzerkqei" or something.

[SavageWombat]

A Welsh Kobold?

That's a blueberry scone with a slice of melted cheese on top, right?

[littlebum2002]

A Welsh Kobold?

That's what I meant.

[bguy]

That's just Belkar having fun, you throw in Roy fighting for his life, and a vamped out Durkon fighting for his friends, with a devil serving him, and you've got an army being sent into a meat grinder.

I hope you are wrong, and the mooks prove more capable than that because otherwise we've had a lot of buildup here for a rather dull anti-climax. There's nothing exciting about watching the party steamroll a bunch of low level mooks who have no real ability to damage them. (There's a reason why high level PCs don't keep fighting 1 HD opponents in D&D games afterall.) If it does happen that it would basically turn the conclusion of this book into little more than an Austin Powers sketch.

It also doesn't make sense from an in-story perspective. Tarquin knows that any troops he brings out to the Gate aren't going to be fighting a rival mook army but instead will most likely end up taking on high level adventurers (be it the Order, the Girard Clan, or Xykon.) Why bother transporting an army out there if it's going to be useless in such a fight? It's also a little hard to believe that Tarquin wouldn't have trained and equiped his army for the prospect of facing undead and called creatures, since he is waging a campaign of conquest for the entire continent and would have to expect that some of the nations he targets would use such creatures against him in battle. (Tarquin seems to take training his men seriously, and not training your troops to fight undead in a fantasy world would be an oversight on par with a modern day army not training its troops to deal with a chemical weapon attack.)

[dps]

And keep in mind that Taruin knows quite well that Durkon is a vampire now. As genre savvy as he is, I don't think he'd order his army to kill them if he didn't have good reason to think that his troops could do so. Unless his plan is to get his army trashed for some reason.

Well, maybe that is his plan--get his army out of the way, and then graft himself and the members of his team that are present to the Order and accompany them to the next gate. I kind of doubt it, though. He wouldn't have any real need to waste a whole army to do that.

[Amphiox]

Would Tarquin have made sure his archers were armed with silver arrows on the contingency that he gets betrayed by Malack and needs to take his former ally down?

Or would Tarquin ensure that his soldiers would never be equipped with silver arrows, so that a revolt from within the ranks would never have the equipment on hand that could threaten his ally, Malack?

[johnbragg]

And keep in mind that Taruin knows quite well that Durkon is a vampire now. As genre savvy as he is, I don't think he'd order his army to kill them if he didn't have good reason to think that his troops could do so.


Durkon isn't the point. Party leader and "hero of the Greenhilt Saga" Roy is. Belkar also isn't the point.

[Jay R]

At best I see a handful of soldiers, the ranking officers, the super elite, or whatever, having a couple of magical crossbows...

Yeah, that's all the threat there is ... unless you count Laurin and Tarquin. And Tarquin has already out-fought the entire OotS - alone.

[Scow2]

Yeah, that's all the threat there is ... unless you count Laurin and Tarquin. And Tarquin has already out-fought the entire OotS - alone.After they had been softened up by TWO strikes from Z's Overpowered Acid Splash.

[angry_bear]

Would Tarquin have made sure his archers were armed with silver arrows on the contingency that he gets betrayed by Malack and needs to take his former ally down?

Or would Tarquin ensure that his soldiers would never be equipped with silver arrows, so that a revolt from within the ranks would never have the equipment on hand that could threaten his ally, Malack?

It's plausible that he'd have armed them with silver and magical arrows (Has to be both to overcome a lot of creatures damage reduction) but why would he given the circumstances? He didn't know Malack was dead at the time, so he had no reason to expect his betrayal, or that Durkon would be back with the Order.

As far as strategy goes, there are worse tactics than sending wave after wave of your own men until the enemy's kill count is reached and they shut down overwhelmed. Or it could be that Tarquin is going for the more dramatic situation where the heroes have to go through hell to reach the big bad (Him and Laurin) for the final showdown. Or he's just waiting for Elan to panic and surrender or strike a deal with him the same way he did when Haley was "surrounded" in the courtyard.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html

[zimmerwald1915]

After they had been softened up by TWO strikes from Z's Overpowered Acid Splash.
HP damage has no effect on combat prowess, only combat length.

[Bulldog Psion]

Though I seriously, seriously doubt it will happen, it's still intriguing to speculate on the party Elan could put together.

This might make an interesting party:

Elan
Haley
Enor
Gannji
Durkon
Sabine

[Tock Zipporah]

Actually, Silver Arrows are quite expensive, costing 2 GP each. Petty cash for an adventurer above first level, but when you multiply it by an army, it becomes an enormous cost.

Tarquin recently earned enough money to buy 33,218 of them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html) With some change leftover. And he doesn't need to buy enough "for the whole army." He only needs to buy enough for the archers (which might represent only 1/4 of the total armed forces he has), and even then he can limit it to the elite squads of higher level soldiers. The point is, Tarquin CAN afford to, say, equip one squad of 20 archers with a quiver of 20 silver arrows each (20*20*2= 800 gp). Those twenty archers are enough that one of them will get a Nat 20 and drop Durkon.


Thought I think the "drive a stake" thing was intended for hammering the stake into the helpless or restrained vampire, a la coup de grace. I strongly doubt that it was intended as yet another weak sauce weakness as a combat maneuver (thought in many ambientations its a rule, ie, buffyverse) and even if so , a +8 adjust would be a bit too much to something that could be dealt with just spamming arrows at his general direction, don't you think? They are supposed to be scary and challenging, dammit!. Also scoring a nat 20 doesn't mean that it will strike his heart, in fact, being an undead makes him immune to critical hits which means that it will not hit anything more hurtfull than a normal strike would; a critical hit is an abstractions and there's few targeted attack instances on d&d 3.5 like Vorpal weapons which sever heads on a natural 20 and, incidentally, are specifically stated to work on vampires too.

It's not about the critical hit; it's about hitting his AC while taking whatever penalty the DM calls for a precise heart shot. Even if the DM says "Because of his full plate armor and the increased difficulty of hitting a four-inch-wide section of his chest, you need to hit an effective AC of 73," a Nat 20 would still hit that AC. So if 200+ people are aiming for the heart, about 10 will hit it just by mathematical odds.

Also, there's a d20 supplement called "Fang and Fury" that has specific rules for one-shotting a vampire with any piercing weapon, if you take a called shot penalty on your to-hit.


1) So? Nothing in the rules supports this.
2) Aaaand? It won't lodge in his chest, because it can't get through his DR.
3) Again, not supported in the rules. "Nat 20" does not mean "right through the heart".
4) Vampire DR is 10/Silver and Magic. If it were just silver ammo, that's 2gp a pop. If you add in the magic cost, it's suddenly closer to 50gp an arrow. Good luck equipping an army with that. (I don't see any ranks of low-level spellcasters in that army.)

2 & 3 & 4. See Above.
1. Who said anything about rules? I specifically said "Every campaign I've played in would call that "close enough to a 'stake' to count."" Joe states my point quite simply:


Whether or not arrows (or more relevant here, crossbow bolts) count as a stake is a GM call.

The rules are one thing. What one GM or another allows in his campaign is something else. If this were my campaign, I'd allow an arrow through the heart to take down a vampire IF the PC was given enough penalties to make it appropriately challenging (or if that PC has a frickin' army).

Also, as for the low-level spellcasters; sure, we don't see any, but we didn't see Haley's quivers either. Doesn't mean they're not there.

[quasit]

It's not about the critical hit; it's about hitting his AC while taking whatever penalty the DM calls for a precise heart shot. Even if the DM says "Because of his full plate armor and the increased difficulty of hitting a four-inch-wide section of his chest, you need to hit an effective AC of 73," a Nat 20 would still hit that AC. So if 200+ people are aiming for the heart, about 10 will hit it just by mathematical odds.

Also, there's a d20 supplement called "Fang and Fury" that has specific rules for one-shotting a vampire with any piercing weapon, if you take a called shot penalty on your to-hit.

OK, let's then agree that we disagree. Didn't read that supplement btw, but doesn't look from the main wotc line but rather from a third party. If so, I don't know if it is balancing the vampire adjustement level or cr adjustement. Thought seems ok giving additional specific means to deal with vampires if you intend the campaign to be based around hunting vampires to give more detail and fluff and stuff; but if so I'd have the cr adjustment of the vampire template like halved as well, to keep it balanced and comprehensive.

Back on the strip 916 thing, we still didn't get to see how some applicant that admitted herself that she's not be very good fighting liches would perform against a vampire, so there's no evidence that it would work that way, methinks.

Back on topic Tarquin's looks like very confident about having total control of the situation and even might be expecting to Roy performing an obi-wan. If so, i'd rather go for an pride precedes the fall moment.

[Rajhiim]

The point of the stake in the heart... is to stop the heart from beating. Once the stake is pulled out, the heart can resume it's business.

It's like a big pause button for the vampire, stake in the heart... smoke a cigarette and start planning your loot distribution cuz' we got this.

I don't believe Durkon has much to worry about. He wears plate armor and the arrows are shot on the typical army trajectory (so they'll come down at a high angle, meant to stop the enemy force and come down onto their heads and neck (barring turtle tactics). It's unlikely they have sufficient weight to penetrate plate mail (something the English Longbow and the cross bow excelled at - but not at great range). It's physics - once the arrow loses it's juice enough to succumb to gravity... the plate mail means more.

So IF the arrow still had enough juice to penetrate the breastplate... it is very unlikely it would penetrate deep enough to recreate the staking effect.

Would Durkon feel it? Oh yes, and he would know that was a close one. He would then, as mentioned before, yank it out and be more careful.

Additionally -- Tarquin did not plan on having to fight a Vampire. The only vampire in the equation was his guy, so ipso facto any "new" vampires would be "his guys."

(I would not be shocked at all if Tarquin didn't have some anti-vampire goodness on him though).

[johnbragg]

Though I seriously, seriously doubt it will happen, it's still intriguing to speculate on the party Elan could put together.

This might make an interesting party:

Elan
Haley
Enor
Gannji
Durkon
Sabine

Which was my basic point in creating the thread, responding to the argument that Elan would have to replace Roy, Belkar and maybe Durkon with low-level mooks because "high-level adventurers don't grow on trees." Meanwhile there are named characters available as semi-adequate substitutes. (Plus Thog, O'Chul, Ian Starshine, the married paladins who have been offscreen long enough to level up arbitrarily...)

Tarquin is Genre Savvy, and at this point in the story, there are a decent array of "guest stars" to promote to "regulars."

Of course now the thread is about the mechanics of a zillion archers vs vampire Durkon, or maybe about the party vs Tarquin, Miron, Laurin and an army.

[johnbragg]

Even if the DM says "Because of his full plate armor and the increased difficulty of hitting a four-inch-wide section of his chest, you need to hit an effective AC of 73," a Nat 20 would still hit that AC. So if 200+ people are aiming for the heart, about 10 will hit it just by mathematical odds.


I don't know what the mass-combat rules are anymore, but I don't think the Nat 20 rules apply to mass combat.

I'd say Nat 20 is a dramatic convention that applies to named or individual combatants. I can't find them in OOTS wiki, but the it was the same principle that led the married paladins to tell each other their names, and to hold his surname in reserve for an emergency.

In all your experience of gaming, who would have a better shot at taking down Durkula with a Buffyverse shot to the heart, (pretend no silver) Haley or 200 mooks?

Characters can do things that hordes of nameless mooks can't. (See also conservation of ninjitsu.)

[Tock Zipporah]

I don't know what the mass-combat rules are anymore, but I don't think the Nat 20 rules apply to mass combat.

I'd say Nat 20 is a dramatic convention that applies to named or individual combatants. I can't find them in OOTS wiki, but the it was the same principle that led the married paladins to tell each other their names, and to hold his surname in reserve for an emergency.

In all your experience of gaming, who would have a better shot at taking down Durkula with a Buffyverse shot to the heart, (pretend no silver) Haley or 200 mooks?

Characters can do things that hordes of nameless mooks can't. (See also conservation of ninjitsu.)

Well, I've never used "Mass Combat" rules. I've had plenty of combat scenarios where there's a LOT of enemies, but never used the variant rules (if I recall, they include things like making one attack roll per "squad" or something like that).

And realistically, I'd say yes the 200 mooks have a better chance of success. No matter how good the one character is, there reaches a point where the sheer volume of enemies will win by pure numbers. Haley gets, what, 4 attacks per round? Say she has a good chance to hit and lands 3 shots. The mooks, if only 1 in 20 hit, land 10 shots. If we're talking pure damage, Haley's attacks might still be more effective (3*(1d8+5+1d6) vs 10*1d8). But in terms of "pierce the heart to disable the vampire" the mooks have a better chance.

[Jay R]

The crucial thing to realize is that Tarquin is wrong - clearly, provably wrong.

If Roy dies, Rob Redblade will not just happen to appear in the next tavern. The party will struggle along without Roy, maybe get split up for a couple of hundred strips, until they can raise him again.

I'm not guessing; we've seen it. Roy has already died, and Rob Redblade didn't appear.

Everything Tarquin is doing now is based on the notion that Elan is the one great hero, Tarquin is the one great villain, and all the other players are instantly replaceable. He usually acts like it's a story, but now he's acting like it's a game.

By mixing his game-savviness with his story-savviness, he has created a scenario that might have worked if this were a game with players, but cannot work if this is a story in which Roy is the main hero and Elan one of his team.

[johnbragg]

He usually acts like it's a story, but now he's acting like it's a game.


This is a good point. STorywise, Tarquin could rely on there being supporting characters out there who could be promoted to the main plot-group--Sabine, the bounty hunters, Azure City paladins. He doesn't have to know exactly who they are, just that the odds are that at this point they're out there somewhere. But Tarquin is breaking the fourth wall in a different direction here.

Rob Redblade is a different argument than "the Evil Empire always exists"--one relies on D&D campaigns, the other on more universal storytelling.

[Sunken Valley]

Tarquin has given us the answer to this question. With 5 dead PCs, Elan will create the Stray Rock Guild.

Starring!
Rob Redblade, Fighter
Murkon Lightninghammer, Cleric
Helly Cometglow, Rogue
Spectar Sweetroot, Ranger with his hawk Miss Neat
And Krekatea, Wizard with Cat familiar Whitefur!

Unfortunately Elan died three weeks later. The party replaced him with Genre Saavy Bard Ehlain. Now they fight Mummy Lord sorcerer Cykalon, his Orc priest Bluegloves and the Beast in Light, a creature surrounded by blinding light, in order to prevent them from getting their greedy mits on the five "Doors".

[Connington]

By mixing his game-savviness with his story-savviness, he has created a scenario that might have worked if this were a game with players, but cannot work if this is a story in which Roy is the main hero and Elan one of his team.

Why should he plan for the impossible? The son of Tarquin would never just be second-fiddle to some common Northerner (especially not now that he's his only child). This Ron fellow is obviously a mentor figure that Elan has foolishly allowed to take up too much of the spotlight. Mentor figures are made to be killed so that the hero has the opportunity for dramatic growth.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why should he plan for the impossible? The son of Tarquin would never just be second-fiddle to some common Northerner (especially not now that he's his only child).
Nitpick: Tarquin's a Northerner.

[Ouroborosi]

Well, there are also those two outsiders Durkon almost recruited in On the Origin of PCs...

or the monk he ha probbaly more then 4 attacks each round

[F.Harr]

I've seen a lot of people say



or the equivalent. This ignores a facet of Tarquin's genre savvy--by this point in the story, there should be a variety of options.

So who would team up with 1990s Darker, Grittier Elan, AKA "Patch", AKA "Blondie" and Haley, plus Vampire Durkon (arrows won't do squat to him and Tarquin knows it), Vaarsuvius and maybe Belkar?

Well, Thog has already teamed up with Elan, and enjoyed the experience. Plus Other-Talky-Man killed Nale! Kill Other-Talky-Man!

Sabine wants vengeance for Nale. And the IFCC wants OOTS vs Team Evil conflict. They'd settle for OOTS Mark II vs Team Evil, and I doubt they would be bothered by OOTS Mark II vs Team Tarquin.

Gaanji the lizardman and Enor the half-dragon. Tarquin owes them a bounty, plus all their stuff, plus y'know, vengeance.

Plus Tarquin's 9th or 10th wife or wife-to-be whose name I can't quite remember Amon-something.

So there's enough characters lurking in off-stage for Elan to put a new party together if Tarquin's mooks kill Roy.

NOTE: That doesn't mean that Tarquin is right about Elan and himself being the central characters. It just means that saying "Where is Elan supposed to find high-level replacements for Roy and Belkar" fails.

O.K. Works for me.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Tarquin has given us the answer to this question. With 5 dead PCs, Elan will create the Stray Rock Guild.

Starring!
Rob Redblade, Fighter
Murkon Lightninghammer, Cleric
Helly Cometglow, Rogue
Spectar Sweetroot, Ranger with his hawk Miss Neat
And Krekatea, Wizard with Cat familiar Whitefur!

Unfortunately Elan died three weeks later. The party replaced him with Genre Saavy Bard Ehlain. Now they fight Mummy Lord sorcerer Cykalon, his Orc priest Bluegloves and the Beast in Light, a creature surrounded by blinding light, in order to prevent them from getting their greedy mits on the five "Doors".

Yes. Yes. YES.

Also, they are hampered my Niko Zimayaki the blackguard; who kills Shord Lojo.