Was there any way Elan could have talked Tarquin out of this?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I know what the Giant said, that this offer was only ever intended for Elan and Haley, and that Tarquin intended to have Elan leave behind the rest of the order, whether willingly or much less willingly.

What I'm wondering is, was there any way that Elan or Haley could have appealed to Tarquin's wrong genre savviness to convince him to let the rest of the Order come along?

The only thing I can think of is convincing him that the rest of the Order hadn't finished their character arcs, and "As you know, even the side characters need to finish their personal stories for the overall narrative to be satisfying and complete!" But even this is a stretch.

[Sunken Valley]

I need my men to help me. They've been with me this far and I'm not losing them now.

[Nilan8888]

There's still more gates. We'll split into an 'A' and 'B' team...

(see Team Evil's last appearance comic)

[Mike Havran]

:elan: Dad, the two little ones are Evil and will certainly betray me, and with Roy sacrificing his life so that we'll be battle-scarred enough to prevail against an Epic Foe, it'll make an awesome twist. Sounds good, right? And you will only come after that and everybody knows climax is much more epic than the mid-chapter...think of the blaze of glory you'll eventually get when you let us all go to the Northern Lands.

[Porthos]

I think some people are missing the point of this scene.

Tarquin wasn't willing to have Roy be with Elan for a minute longer.

Period.

End of.

Everyone else dying is just a "Clean break is the best break" policy at work. With a dash of 'your friends probably wouldn't follow you anyway'. Time to start a new life and all that dramatic stuff.

So the question is, could Elan have said anything that could have kept him and Roy together?

I tend to think not. Not something that Elan could have said at any rate.

See, Tarquin's been observing Elan and Roy. And, well, actions speak louder than words. It would have been a hell of a tale coming out of Elan's mouth that could have satisfied Tarquin's need for Elan to no longer be overshadowed by Roy. And one that I don't think he could have come up with.

Mostly because Tarquin would keep coming up with counterarguments until Elan botched a Diplomacy roll couldn't come up with a counter on the spot.

No, it was either Elan (and maybe Haley) leaves Roy behind willingly or I'll do it for him.

[Morty]

My answer, especially having taken the Giant's comments into account, is also 'probably not'. Tarquin was not willing to endure what he saw as Elan's subordinate role in the story any longer. At best, Roy, Durkon and Belkar would have been left behind... although knowing Tarquin, he might have decided to tie up some loose ends by disposing of them anyway.

[Kish]

...Has Tarquin ever been convinced of anything by anyone? Talking-wise, I mean; the collective people of the Western Continent were able to convince him he needed a more subtle approach to conquest.

[mhsmith]

...Has Tarquin ever been convinced of anything by anyone? Talking-wise, I mean; the collective people of the Western Continent were able to convince him he needed a more subtle approach to conquest.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html

but I do wonder if he's ever been convinced of anything by anyone outside his circle.

[Kish]

Malack didn't actually convince Tarquin of anything there, remember? Tarquin went right on planning to arrange matters so that Nale and Malack had to go back to working together.

[Gift Jeraff]

elan: dad plz dont kill roy
tarquin: ok

[CoffeeIncluded]

That's what I was thinking too. The only way Elan could have talked Tarquin out of this would be to make their living critical to his storyline. And even then it was a long shot.

Whatever it is, Tarquin needs to go down in as ignominious a fashion as possible. Although now that we see, clearly, just how delusional he is (and I always knew he was delusional, but not to this extent though it makes sense) I'm not even sure that Tarquin will accept that his moment of defeat is anything but glorious, even as it happens.

[veti]

Malack didn't actually convince Tarquin of anything there, remember? Tarquin went right on planning to arrange matters so that Nale and Malack had to go back to working together.

Well he convinced him to apologise to Malack. That's something, even if it was about as sincere as a succubus's kiss.

I think it's entirely possible Elan could have said something that would have produced a different outcome. Something like "Dad, you don't get involved in every combat, that's what fighters are for! A hero only gets his hands dirty at the appropriate climactic moment."

But since he had no idea what lunacy was going on in Tarquin's mind, he had no way of working out what he needed to say to prevent it.

Personally, if I had to guess what will save the party this time, I'd put my money on Laurin and/or Miron to speak up. They don't share Tarquin's narcissism - at least, not as it relates to him - so it follows they don't share his view of Elan. More likely, they would see the OOTS in the in-world rational way of seeing them: as the best, possibly only, thing standing between them and a scenery-chewing, world-dominating threat.

[slayerx]

Well i doubt he would have had the chance to say anything, but if he did have a chance, he could have pointed out that Roy has a personal connection to Xykon and that if Tarquin wants him defeated its Roy who is narratively best equipped to do it...

An explanation tarquin wouldn't like however, is that the order is on a quest to defeat a villian that has been operating for decades on a plan to take over the entire world and that the very fabric of the existance of this world is at risk, AND that it was a story that started even longer ago by a band of previous adventurers... My point? Tarquin's conquest of a single continent is kind of small potatoes compared to the threat that Xykon and Redcloak present and the story of the gates, and thus he must accept that he really is nothing more than a secondary villain.

[Emanick]

...Has Tarquin ever been convinced of anything by anyone? Talking-wise, I mean; the collective people of the Western Continent were able to convince him he needed a more subtle approach to conquest.

I suspect that Tarquin will never alter any grand portion of his larger scheme to accommodate anyone else's arguments, but there are times when he will allow the wishes of somebody he likes to guide his next actions when he is not especially emotionally invested in the immediate outcome. See the scene in the arena: "Huh, you're really not enjoying the spectacle of this battle? Okay, then, I guess I'll just kill Ganji and Enor now." Tarquin's a people-pleaser, remember - unless it's important to him that something go a different way, he will be happy to accommodate the wishes of someone whom, like Elan, he considers a "person."

To me, the crucial sentence in Tarquin's dialogue in 916 is "I was afraid you were going to say something like that." That suggests to me that Tarquin would have acted differently if Elan hadn't insisted that Roy was of ultimate importance to him. If Elan had painted Roy as somebody who complemented, rather than detracted from, Tarquin's view of his son's narrative role - by, say, describing Roy as a personal trainer, somebody with a mystery yet to be revealed, or a significant combat asset rather than an emotional one - we might have seen a very different final panel. "I was afraid you were going to say something like that" is not the kind of thing a man says towards the end of a routine conversation that has had zero impact on a rapidly approaching decision of his.

[Muenster Man]

Based on the Giant's comments in the main discussion thread, Tarquin wanted Roy dead. He may have liked Roy and even respected Roy, but it seems that was all the more reason to want him out of the picture. After the events of the pyramid, Tarquin probably saw Roy as the most likely threat to his livelihood, not Elan, because he is the leader, is the most competent of the group, and in terms of all-around stats he was probably more or less Tarquin's equal.

As for his "I was afraid you were going to say something like that" comment, it seems like a good way to place the guilt of Roy's presumed death on Elan, so Elan has something else to brood over while he levels up over the coming years. And it's already worked here, after taking a brief look at the forums. I'm surprised at how many people are blaming Elan and not Tarquin.

Poor Elan, there's little he could have done to change the outcome, and now he may feel responsible if something terrible happens to his friends.

[mikeejimbo]

After Tarquin said "Yes, but I'm the villain," Elan reveals:

"No. I was the villain all along!"

Not sure how he'd back it up.

[Emanick]

Based on the Giant's comments in the main discussion thread, Tarquin wanted Roy dead. He may have liked Roy and even respected Roy, but it seems that was all the more reason to want him out of the picture. After the events of the pyramid, Tarquin probably saw Roy as the most likely threat to his livelihood, not Elan, because he is the leader, is the most competent of the group, and in terms of all-around stats he was probably more or less Tarquin's equal.

As for his "I was afraid you were going to say something like that" comment, it seems like a good way to place the guilt of Roy's presumed death on Elan, so Elan has something else to brood over while he levels up over the coming years. And it's already worked here, after taking a brief look at the forums. I'm surprised at how many people are blaming Elan and not Tarquin.

Poor Elan, there's little he could have done to change the outcome, and now he may feel responsible if something terrible happens to his friends.

There's a difference between blaming Elan and saying that Elan could have theoretically prevented this if he had said the right thing at the right time. Not being hyperintelligent/omniscient and being guilty are very different things.

I think Tarquin would have stressed Elan's culpability more if he was attempting to make Elan feel guilty for Roy's death. Otherwise the central conversation of this strip is pretty banal and meaningless.

[tomaO2]

What about the contract that Roy made Elan sign?

True, it was ripped up but given Tarquin's Lawful nature, he might accept that his son is meant to be serving Roy until Xykon is dead. Only THEN should he kill Roy off, assuming he didn't die in the process. Also might help to know the various dramatic things that caused Roy to go after Xykon, such as the blood oath.

I also don't think Tarquin fully understands just how dangerous the situation is, and it's not helped by Haley saying that they don't need to be teleported to the next location. That was something that Roy would have stopped if he had been invited to the parley. He's practical minded enough to take every scrap of help he can scrounge up.

[Forikroder]

I know what the Giant said, that this offer was only ever intended for Elan and Haley, and that Tarquin intended to have Elan leave behind the rest of the order, whether willingly or much less willingly.

What I'm wondering is, was there any way that Elan or Haley could have appealed to Tarquin's wrong genre savviness to convince him to let the rest of the Order come along?

The only thing I can think of is convincing him that the rest of the Order hadn't finished their character arcs, and "As you know, even the side characters need to finish their personal stories for the overall narrative to be satisfying and complete!" But even this is a stretch.

hed have to prove to Tarquin that Roy was actually his sidekick and anything to the contrary is just a complicated scheme to raise the tension before he comes to save the day

[Dalek Kommander]

The only possible way would be for Elan to convince Tarquin that he's the true leader of the order of the stick, and Roy is really just an insignifican supporting character who poses no obstacle at all in Elan's destiny of becoming a True Hero.

Elan is of course far too honest to tell such a ridiculous lie at all, much less have the bluff skill to make it convincing.

So the short answer is no.

[Steward]

I need my men to help me. They've been with me this far and I'm not losing them now.

Agreed. Logically, if Roy + Elan + Haley + Durkon + V + Belkar < Xykon, then Elan + Haley < Xykon too.

But Tarquin isn't the biggest fan of that kind of logic. He probably believes in the conservation of ninjitsu, which would suggest that a team of just Elan and Haley would be as effective as the entire Order (or even more than them), for the same reason why James Bond by himself can take on challenges that in other stories would require all of the X-Men.


After Tarquin said "Yes, but I'm the villain," Elan reveals:

"No. I was the villain all along!"

Not sure how he'd back it up.

So, something like the last two panels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)?

I guess the only way to follow that up is to inject Tarquin with a slow-acting poison and only giving him the antidote if he agrees to stand down and let the Order go.

Not sure how Elan could pull this off though giving that he had like .0008 seconds to react before the arrows went flying...

[Sunken Valley]

Roy talks Tarquin into releasing Geoff and Ian. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html)

Come on guys, Tarquin isn't as hard to persuade as you all seem to say he is. If he's given the right narrative convention (and he likes you) he will listen.

[The Giant]

elan: dad plz dont kill roy
tarquin: ok

Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for #917.

[Leolo]

You don't have to change it that much. Just add three little words.

elan: dad plz dont kill roy
tarquin: ok, kill belkar instead!

:smallbiggrin:

Just kidding. What Tarquin does is the right thing from his perspective, and the order does not have that good arguments that haven't already been said. Xykon might destroy the world? Tarquin knows that. Roy is helpfull stopping Xykon? Tarquin knows that, too.

The problem is: Elan is needed as much as roy. A heroic Elan, that becomes stronger first. And Tarquin wants this.

[Sunken Valley]

Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for #917.

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

[Rakoa]

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

I believe he is most certainly joking.

[Kish]

I can't tell if you are joking or not.
...Really?

[The Pilgrim]

:elan: Dad, I'm, in fact, evil! Roy is my victim of the week! you can't step in and steal my narrative role!

[Peelee]

Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for #917.

Welp, that made my day.

[Ghost Nappa]

Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for #917.

Was #918 going to be Tarquin saying "Psych!" ?


Welp, that made my day.

Can't read. Laughing too much.

[littlebum2002]

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

I can't tell if you are joking or not.

[mhsmith]

What about the contract that Roy made Elan sign?

True, it was ripped up but given Tarquin's Lawful nature, he might accept that his son is meant to be serving Roy until Xykon is dead. Only THEN should he kill Roy off, assuming he didn't die in the process. Also might help to know the various dramatic things that caused Roy to go after Xykon, such as the blood oath.

I also don't think Tarquin fully understands just how dangerous the situation is, and it's not helped by Haley saying that they don't need to be teleported to the next location. That was something that Roy would have stopped if he had been invited to the parley. He's practical minded enough to take every scrap of help he can scrounge up.

1) I remain very skeptical that Tarquin is actually Lawful. He seems to enjoy running a LE empire but seems all too willing to sow chaos for the sake of an enjoyable narrative, he blatantly violated at least the spirit and quite possibly the letter of his agreement with his associates when he did the Pyramid Adventure solely for the sake of bringing Nale back into the fold, etc.

And that's without going into his frequent use of deceit in running the empire, managing conflicts, etc. Honestly, he seems to be like a NE character who made the selfish decision that it'd be more enjoyable to run a relatively LE empire than an NE or CE one (and it's also plausible that the Empire of Blood is LE in substantial part because the other member of the pair, Malack, is VERY Lawful).

Just eyeballing an LE description ( http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html ):

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

Tarquin doesn't seem to have any particularly binding code of conduct, doesn't seem willing to serve (pretend to serve is one thing, actually serve another), and doesn't seem to care much at all about characters' race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He MAY be loath to break laws or promises, but even there we don't see any indication he'd choose to keep his word over preserving his own self-interest.

Overall he doesn't fall into the religious, ideological, or racist LE stereotypes. He also doesn't have anything else that screams out "of course he's Lawful". Instead, the evidence suggesting he's Lawful largely boils down to:


His lawyer said he is
His empire is Lawful Evil
He's very competent (which people usually interpret as Lawful for some reason)


Honestly, that strikes me as fairly weak. He certainly COULD be Lawful, but in-comic evidence suggests to me that he's a Neutral Evil villain who enjoys wearing the mask of Lawful Evil.

2) Even if you do think he's Lawful, there's no indication whatsoever that he's Lawful Stupid (stupid in other ways, perhaps, but not in that one). Why would he ignore his own plans just to honor a contract that he didn't even sign? That just doesn't make sense.

PS I do agree that Tarquin doesn't seem to understand how dangerous the situation is, but on the other hand neither do we. We do know that Team Evil is strong and dangerous, but we actually know almost nothing for certain about the rifts, Snarl, etc. It's been established a number of times that at least some important information we've been given is probably wrong, so that not even the OOTS actually knows how dangerous the situation is. And if they don't know, then how/why should Tarquin?

[Porthos]

There was a very long running thread about this that examined Tarquin's Lawful bonafides from every possible angle. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286395) And I do mean every possible angle. :smallwink: Most of what I had to say on the subject, I'll leave as read there.

But I will comment on one thing you brought up, as I rhink it is rather important:


And that's without going into his frequent use of deceit in running the empire, managing conflicts, etc.

That's extremely Lawful Evil behavior. Or at least it can be. Just look to what the Nine Hells wants to promote. Devils aren't called the Fathers Of Lies for nothing. :smallwink:


He also doesn't have anything else that screams out "of course he's Lawful".

This is a matter of opinion. Ever since he's walked on the scene I've pegged him as highly Lawful Evil.

Just goes to show just how subjective supposedly objective alignment can be. :smallsmile:

[dps]

Personally, if I had to guess what will save the party this time, I'd put my money on Laurin and/or Miron to speak up. They don't share Tarquin's narcissism - at least, not as it relates to him - so it follows they don't share his view of Elan. More likely, they would see the OOTS in the in-world rational way of seeing them: as the best, possibly only, thing standing between them and a scenery-chewing, world-dominating threat.

The problem with this idea is that we have zero reason to believe that any of Tarquin's team (including Tarquin himself) have any idea whatsoever about the nature of the threat.

What might have worked would have been Elan telling Tarquin, "Dad, the other party trying to sieze the Gates is an epic-level lich and I need Roy because he has an enchanted ancestoral weapon which can defeat him."

[F.Harr]

I know what the Giant said, that this offer was only ever intended for Elan and Haley, and that Tarquin intended to have Elan leave behind the rest of the order, whether willingly or much less willingly.

What I'm wondering is, was there any way that Elan or Haley could have appealed to Tarquin's wrong genre savviness to convince him to let the rest of the Order come along?

The only thing I can think of is convincing him that the rest of the Order hadn't finished their character arcs, and "As you know, even the side characters need to finish their personal stories for the overall narrative to be satisfying and complete!" But even this is a stretch.

Sadly, that doesn't sound like a very Elanish thing to say.

[mhsmith]

That's extremely Lawful Evil behavior. Or at least it can be. Just look to what the Nine Hells wants to promote. Devils aren't called the Fathers Of Lies for nothing. :smallwink:


I'm not convinced, though in fairness I'm not an expert on D&D outside realms. Deception generally is a Neutral to Chaotic activity depending on the context. Lawful types would be (in general) deceptive entirely (or almost entirely) through the more Neutral methods (such as "I'm not explicitly lying to you"). Engaging in Neutral activities is certainly not a non-Lawful behavior (presuming it's not the #1 thing you do), so that seems consistent.

So I'd agree that deception is by itself not enough to say "not Lawful", but like any Neutral behavior engaged in, it adds to the list of reasons to suspect that he's really Neutral. It certainly doesn't make much sense to say that his deceptions are evidence that argue he's more Lawful.



That's extremely Lawful Evil behavior. *Or at least it can be. *Just look to what the Nine Hells wants to promote. Devils aren't called the Fathers Of Lies for nothing. :smallwink:

This is a matter of opinion. Ever since he's walked on the scene I've pegged him as highly Lawful Evil.

Just goes to show just how subjective supposedly objective alignment can be. :smallsmile:

That was definitely my first impression (especially colored by the "he's Lawful Evil" background (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) from way back). But I think the more we get to know Tarquin, the less Lawful he seems. At the very least, he's clearly not strongly Lawful.

[Porthos]

But I think the more we get to know Tarquin, the less Lawful he seems. At the very least, he's clearly not strongly Lawful.

And yet, the more I see of him, the more I'm convinced he really is Lawful Evil.

As I said, it's funny how people view alignments differently. :smallsmile:

[F.Harr]

Maybe if Elan threatens to kill himself.

[mhsmith]

And yet, the more I see of him, the more I'm convinced he really is Lawful Evil.

As I said, it's funny how people view alignments differently. :smallsmile:

heh. very true.

[HobbesB]

The thing to focus on is that whatever Tarquin does, Elan is a Bard. He is physically incapable of "leading the charge", whether he has meat shields or not. Does Tarquin expect him to multiclass? If not, then he'll have to settle for being defeated by brains, not brawn. That's how all the best heroes do it.

[SavageWombat]

I suspect 917 should put to rest any lingering doubts about Tarquin not being truly Lawful. That was practically his own Thesis Statement.

[Porthos]

And yet, the more I see of him, the more I'm convinced he really is Lawful Evil.

As I said, it's funny how people view alignments differently. :smallsmile:

BTW, it is strips like today's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html) and the one the one where he first laid out his master plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) that I point to when I mean obviously Lawful Evil.

In fact he is SO Lawful Evil that he is trying to impose his sense of structure and stability on reality itself.

He is destined for rapid promotion I think once he inevitably reaches the Nine Hells of Baator. :smalltongue:

[mhsmith]

BTW, it is strips like today's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html) and the one the one where he first laid out his master plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) that I point to when I mean obviously Lawful Evil.

In fact he is SO Lawful Evil that he is trying to impose his sense of structure and stability on reality itself.

He is destined for rapid promotion I think once he inevitably reaches the Nine Hells of Baator. :smalltongue:

I kind of wonder if that blurb was a Take That at my "Tarquin doesn't actually seem Lawful" commentary. Nah, that's just me being narcissistic. It isn't always about me... unless I can force reality to bend to my preferred story structure! Yes! Now we're talking! :smallwink:

[Fish]

Elan would never convince Tarquin that he, Elan, is not the leader. For Tarquin to accept that, he would also have to accept that he, Tarquin, is a side quest.

It would never happen. Tarquin would never admit to being a narrative speed bump. He has far too much ego for that. It would shatter his world.

You might say Tarquin's ploy here is to throw everything he has ... at the plot itself. He is struggling to come to grips with the realization that the story isn't about him, and he's trying to defy his own role by twisting the story into a Tarquin-centric shape.

[Shred-Bot]

"Convince, convince, convince, convince my dad to call off his army from attacking my friends!

(Seriously, dad, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you call off the army right now, hopefully you blew this will save!)"

Though I doubt Tarquin would let him sing at him in the middle of all this for a number of reasons.

[snikrept]

Well, if he had another Philter of Glibness he could just toss it to Haley and have her talk Tarquin out of it. He should prioritize purchasing those things in bulk to get out of situations like this.

[HendoJ]

I know what the Giant said, that this offer was only ever intended for Elan and Haley, and that Tarquin intended to have Elan leave behind the rest of the order, whether willingly or much less willingly.

What I'm wondering is, was there any way that Elan or Haley could have appealed to Tarquin's wrong genre savviness to convince him to let the rest of the Order come along?

The only thing I can think of is convincing him that the rest of the Order hadn't finished their character arcs, and "As you know, even the side characters need to finish their personal stories for the overall narrative to be satisfying and complete!" But even this is a stretch.

I'm not sure Tarquin is wrong Genre savvy. He's assuming he's the Dragon when he isn't by being blinded by Parental pride.

The only to talk him down would have been to enlighten Tarquin to the fact that HE is the monster of the week/side-plot. Of course Tarquin's self-centered mindset makes this virtually impossible.

[ReaderAt2046]

Short answer: No.

Tarquin's Lawful Evilness is, I suspect, a rather peculiar flavor of Lawful, similar to that of Wanda from Erfworld. At the end of the day, Tarquin isn't loyal to any country, any deity, or any person, even himself. Tarquin is loyal to the Story, and he will do anything to facilitate the proper running of the story. Tarquin believes that the Story is Elan (and perhaps some sidekicks) overthrowing the Tarquinian Hegemony. Roy, by standing in the way of Elan becoming the main protagonist, has committed the one sin Tarquin cannot forgive. Trying to kill Tarquin or overthrow his kingdom? Meh, pardonable. Trying to derail the Story? Unforgivable.

[F.Harr]

"Convince, convince, convince, convince my dad to call off his army from attacking my friends!

(Seriously, dad, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you call off the army right now, hopefully you blew this will save!)"

Though I doubt Tarquin would let him sing at him in the middle of all this for a number of reasons.

Probably, but I LOVE the idea.


Well, if he had another Philter of Glibness he could just toss it to Haley and have her talk Tarquin out of it. He should prioritize purchasing those things in bulk to get out of situations like this.

They really should.


Short answer: No.

Tarquin's Lawful Evilness is, I suspect, a rather peculiar flavor of Lawful, similar to that of Wanda from Erfworld. At the end of the day, Tarquin isn't loyal to any country, any deity, or any person, even himself. Tarquin is loyal to the Story, and he will do anything to facilitate the proper running of the story. Tarquin believes that the Story is Elan (and perhaps some sidekicks) overthrowing the Tarquinian Hegemony. Roy, by standing in the way of Elan becoming the main protagonist, has committed the one sin Tarquin cannot forgive. Trying to kill Tarquin or overthrow his kingdom? Meh, pardonable. Trying to derail the Story? Unforgivable.

Well, Tarquin wants his son to be the best at his chosen field as he can. And if that includes slaughtering his current teammates, well, that's just what needs to be done.

[tomandtish]

I'm not convinced, though in fairness I'm not an expert on D&D outside realms. Deception generally is a Neutral to Chaotic activity depending on the context. Lawful types would be (in general) deceptive entirely (or almost entirely) through the more Neutral methods (such as "I'm not explicitly lying to you"). Engaging in Neutral activities is certainly not a non-Lawful behavior (presuming it's not the #1 thing you do), so that seems consistent.

So I'd agree that deception is by itself not enough to say "not Lawful", but like any Neutral behavior engaged in, it adds to the list of reasons to suspect that he's really Neutral. It certainly doesn't make much sense to say that his deceptions are evidence that argue he's more Lawful.



That was definitely my first impression (especially colored by the "he's Lawful Evil" background (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) from way back). But I think the more we get to know Tarquin, the less Lawful he seems. At the very least, he's clearly not strongly Lawful.

All I'll say is: There are known lawful characters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)who deceive in this manner. It is a staple of the lawful alignment, esp. lawful evil. Even lawful goods use it when needed. And not just lawful good, but those who are arguably held to even a higher standard.


What about the contract that Roy made Elan sign?

True, it was ripped up but given Tarquin's Lawful nature, he might accept that his son is meant to be serving Roy until Xykon is dead. Only THEN should he kill Roy off, assuming he didn't die in the process. Also might help to know the various dramatic things that caused Roy to go after Xykon, such as the blood oath.

Actually, I'd argue that if the contract still existed, it increases the probability that Tarquin kills Roy. After all, HE's not bound by the contract, and the contract clearly limits Elan's ability to rise to his potential.

[2.5 cats]

Putting aside comments the The Giant, it seems to me that Elan blew it.

In comic 913, Tarquin offers Elan transportation & other aid, and Elan tells Tarquin to stuff it. Tarquin even confirms that Elan is refusing his help even though it reduces Elan's chance of success.

Since Elan was willing to gamble "the fate of the world" because of his own feelings, why shouldn't Tarquin follow suit, particularly in light of Tarquin not knowing about Xykon's power? (All Tarquin knows is that Elan doesn't consider Xykon a bit enough threat to be willing to bend his morals a tiny bit.)

My feeling is that, had Elan expressed gratitude for (and acceptance of) Tarquin's offered aid, it just might have worked to keep everyone alive--even if it may have been contingent on Elan, not knowing the plan, making a verbal reference to imply he wanted his entire team.

(In other words, Elan may have had to say "We'd be grateful for some healing potions, then transport the five or six of us (plus our animals) to the Western Continent" rather than "We'd be grateful for some healing potions, then transport us to the Western Continent.")

[Jade_Dragon]

Put enough ranks/bonuses in diplomacy/bluff?

[Forikroder]

Putting aside comments the The Giant, it seems to me that Elan blew it.

In comic 913, Tarquin offers Elan transportation & other aid, and Elan tells Tarquin to stuff it. Tarquin even confirms that Elan is refusing his help even though it reduces Elan's chance of success.

Since Elan was willing to gamble "the fate of the world" because of his own feelings, why shouldn't Tarquin follow suit, particularly in light of Tarquin not knowing about Xykon's power? (All Tarquin knows is that Elan doesn't consider Xykon a bit enough threat to be willing to bend his morals a tiny bit.)

My feeling is that, had Elan expressed gratitude for (and acceptance of) Tarquin's offered aid, it just might have worked to keep everyone alive--even if it may have been contingent on Elan, not knowing the plan, making a verbal reference to imply he wanted his entire team.

(In other words, Elan may have had to say "We'd be grateful for some healing potions, then transport the five or six of us (plus our animals) to the Western Continent" rather than "We'd be grateful for some healing potions, then transport us to the Western Continent.")

in comic 913 Tarquin waits for Haley and Elan to pass through then closes the wormhole

he offered Elan aid, not the OoTS aid, hell he probably already had a tavern in mind to wormhole Elan too

the only way Elan could convince tarquin to not do what he just did is somehwo convince him that Roy is his side kick

hed need to chug like 100 of those bluff potions to pull that off

[Kish]

Putting aside comments the The Giant, it seems to me that Elan blew it.

In comic 913, Tarquin offers Elan transportation & other aid, and Elan tells Tarquin to stuff it. Tarquin even confirms that Elan is refusing his help even though it reduces Elan's chance of success.

Since Elan was willing to gamble "the fate of the world" because of his own feelings, why shouldn't Tarquin follow suit, particularly in light of Tarquin not knowing about Xykon's power? (All Tarquin knows is that Elan doesn't consider Xykon a bit enough threat to be willing to bend his morals a tiny bit.)

My feeling is that, had Elan expressed gratitude for (and acceptance of) Tarquin's offered aid, it just might have worked to keep everyone alive--even if it may have been contingent on Elan, not knowing the plan, making a verbal reference to imply he wanted his entire team.

(In other words, Elan may have had to say "We'd be grateful for some healing potions, then transport the five or six of us (plus our animals) to the Western Continent" rather than "We'd be grateful for some healing potions, then transport us to the Western Continent.")
Putting aside comments by the Giant, I think you have Tarquin all wrong. He said what he did about Elan's willingness to reduce his chances of success to manipulate Elan into accepting Tarquin's authority, as he told Nale. Not because he was filing it away under, "Evidence: Sub-boss Zyklon not actually very threatening." Roy was, in Tarquin's mind, as good as dead when he asked Mr. Greenhilt to send up Elan and Haley.

(Of course, not putting aside comments by the Giant, I know you have Tarquin all wrong. So.)

[Newwby]

This is a matter of opinion. Ever since he's walked on the scene I've pegged him as highly Lawful Evil.

Just goes to show just how subjective supposedly objective alignment can be. :smallsmile:

The most defining descriptor of lawful evil I ever read was 'the baron that manipulates his unknowing subjects and maintains dictatorship through rule of law'.

Applies exceptionally well to Tarquin I think. Although it equally applies well to Shojo unfortunately.

[Forikroder]

The most defining descriptor of lawful evil I ever read was 'the baron that manipulates his unknowing subjects and maintains dictatorship through rule of law'.

Applies exceptionally well to Tarquin I think. Although it equally applies well to Shojo unfortunately.

Azure city was a dictatorship?

the difference between Lawful Good and Lawful Evil is Lawful Evil uses the laws to hurt citizens and Lawful Good uses them to protect citizens

Shojo though was Chaotic Good he doesnt care how he did it he just wanted to keep his City safe

[multilis]

He is struggling to come to grips with the realization that the story isn't about him.
No, you are struggling to come to grips with the realization that the story is really about him.

As well you are struggling to keep him "evil" when clearly he is an anti-hero working for the greater good!

The problem with Roy and friends is X has so many levels advantage on them, as X said "come back when you level up". So T is forcing them to level up, time is short. He is forcing them to expand their team to include Haley's dad who will be needed in final confrontation.

T is the ultimate chess master, you are just not good enough at chess to keep up! Not only is he equipping OOTS to defeat X, he is also sabotaging IFCC's team while he secretly pretends to work for them.

[Forikroder]

No, you are struggling to come to grips with the realization that the story is really about him.

As well you are struggling to keep him "evil" when clearly he is an anti-hero working for the greater good!

The problem with Roy and friends is X has so many levels advantage on them, as X said "come back when you level up". So T is forcing them to level up, time is short. He is forcing them to expand their team to include Haley's dad who will be needed in final confrontation.

T is the ultimate chess master, you are just not good enough at chess to keep up! Not only is he equipping OOTS to defeat X, he is also sabotaging IFCC's team while he secretly pretends to work for them.

hes more dastardly then i thought

[Degausser]

I think we are all missing the point. Tarquin is Bona-fide INSANE. He basically takes the worst parts of Rayndian objectivism, combines it with genre savvy-ness, and powergames the crap out of it. All without morals.

Tarquin, here, basically wants a good story. That's ALL he cares about. He's not running empires because he is power-mad, or has a desire to rule, or whatever, he is in it so that he can have his son defeat him. At most, you could say he wants to be remembered in the annals of history.

Let me break it down. Part of the tenants of Objectivism (no, I'm not going to get into a debate here about it, suffice it to say he takes a PIECE of objectivism and goes crazy with it) is that, since you are the one who feels, thinks, and senses everything happening to you, it is your moral obligation to put your own happiness above other people. Now, philosophical debates aside, a Rayndian objectivist is still not going to run around killing people who get in their way, there are some other morals in there too.

Tarquin doesn't have those other morals. His happiness (he thinks) is linked to how good a story he can get out of Elan (and formerly Nale.) So he's going to kill, murder, maim and do whatever he wants in order to get the job done.

But it gets worse, he is genre savvy enough to know that the father-kills-the-son stories are the best (or at least, the best he has to work with), so he is really, really pushing that angle. He powergames in order to put that objective above everything else, like learning about getting happieness from other places (like, as cheesy as it sounds, friendship. Even his closest 'friend' Malak he treated as little more than a pawn.) He thinks that Roy might end up fighting him rather than Elan? Well, he decides to kill Roy so that doesn't happen. Haley doesn't fit the prototypical 'hero' because she comes from 'common stock?' Better test her to find out if she's worthy of dating his boy.

The thing is, ALL he knows is conflict, fighting. He can lie, seduce, use diplomacy, but those are all means to and end, which is conflict. So he doesn't realize that stories about friendship or character growth can be good. That stories about teams helping each other out (like the deep friendship that Elan has with Roy, or the relationship he has with Haley) can be worth something. Sure he wants Elan to grow as a character, but only so that he can BEAT his father in the end.

On top of that he is class-ist, bigoted (remember, Elan's Mom was a commoner), and completely and utterly evil. In short, was there a way that Elan could have prevented Tarquin from attacking Roy? Maybe, if he pulled off a good bluff check or played into Tarquin's Hubris. Could Elan have CONVINCED Tarquin of the error of his ways? Never.

[Imgran]

The thing to focus on is that whatever Tarquin does, Elan is a Bard. He is physically incapable of "leading the charge", whether he has meat shields or not. Does Tarquin expect him to multiclass? If not, then he'll have to settle for being defeated by brains, not brawn. That's how all the best heroes do it.

That's the crux of the problem. Even with dashing swordsman levels, the most Elan can become is an adequate fighter.

But he's not much of a plotter either. When he's in an emergency situation he improvises like a champion, we've seen that a few times, but he's just not much of a schemer, he's too ADHD to stick to a plan very long, and too incapable of wishing real harm on people for that. He reacts, improvises, adapts to new situations and learns from his mistakes, all moderately well but he's not proactive -- not even a little bit. And there isn't a vicious bone in Elan's body.

What you have is a man who just can't give Tarquin the battle he really wants, and probably can't prepare himself to do so without fundamentally evolving as a character. Tarquin knows it, which is why it came to this.

And frankly, Tarquin's right. Elan has a real problem when it comes to Roy. Everyone in the party will stand up to Roy when they think he's wrong -- except Elan. Elan doesn't and won't stand up to Roy, ever, for any reason, and that's the whole crux of the problem. Roy can say any meanspirited thing he wants to Elan, and Elan will just pretend not to hear it, so Roy never actually learns to censor what he says to or about Elan. It's the most accidentally abusive relationship between two friends I've seen in awhile.

Look what happened to Elan with Roy out of the picture in DSTP. Elan asserts himself and becomes a vibrant, three-dimensional character. Not without his flaws and weaknesses, but they're HIS flaws and weaknesses, and he doesn't let them hold him back from doing things on his own initiative. He actually did a lot of good with the fleet, learned from his mistakes, took his duties seriously, and acquitted himself fairly well.

By contrast whenever Roy's around Elan instantly becomes the sixth man in a five man band. Instead of taking the initative like he does on his own, with Roy in the picture Elan stays in the back and waits to be told what to do for the most part. And it's getting to the point that he can't develop as a character because he's become emotionally dependent on Roy and won't assert himself. Sure, Roy's the leader, but again, any of Belkar, V, Durkon or Haley will stand up to Roy when he's wrong. None of them would take the level of verbal abuse Roy gives to Elan (although Roy is getting better about this), and from what we see with Roy's reaction with other party members, he only does it to Elan because Elan doesn't force him to realize what he's doing.

Basically Roy needs to be stood up to occasionally because he's a Type A to the bone, and doesn't always know when he's crossing lines. The fact that elan can't and won't do that to Roy makes the relationship between the two borderline abusive. Roy hasn't identified the problem, and Elan doesn't know that a problem exists, so unless Tarquin did something drastic, the only one with any chance to solve the problem is Haley. And if Haley was going to solve the problem it would have started by now, and Tarquin isn't sure he can trust Haley anyway, so he steps in himself -- in an over the top and brutal way, sure, but that's Tarquin for you. Never go small when you can go big.

[Forikroder]

Tarquin, here, basically wants a good story. That's ALL he cares about. He's not running empires because he is power-mad, or has a desire to rule, or whatever, he is in it so that he can have his son defeat him. At most, you could say he wants to be remembered in the annals of history.

no as he wuite clearly explained, hes doing it to live the life of luxury for 20-30 years and then be remembered as the msot badass villain ever for eternity


But it gets worse, he is genre savvy enough to know that the father-kills-the-son stories are the best (or at least, the best he has to work with), so he is really, really pushing that angle. He powergames in order to put that objective above everything else, like learning about getting happieness from other places (like, as cheesy as it sounds, friendship. Even his closest 'friend' Malak he treated as little more than a pawn.) He thinks that Roy might end up fighting him rather than Elan? Well, he decides to kill Roy so that doesn't happen. Haley doesn't fit the prototypical 'hero' because she comes from 'common stock?' Better test her to find out if she's worthy of dating his boy.

completely utterly wrong, he didnt WANT to kill Nale, he did everything he could to avoid killing Nale

he didnt WANT malack to die, he never thought for a second Nale was going to be that dumb


And frankly, Tarquin's right. Elan has a real problem when it comes to Roy. Everyone in the party will stand up to Roy when they think he's wrong -- except Elan. Elan doesn't and won't stand up to Roy, ever, for any reason, and that's the whole crux of the problem. Roy can say any meanspirited thing he wants to Elan, and Elan will just pretend not to hear it, so Roy never actually learns to censor what he says to or about Elan. It's the most accidentally abusive relationship between two friends I've seen in awhile.

ya he never stands up to Roy, why if Roy said they werent in an illusion Elan would just say "you know your right"

Elan is too dumb to figure out when roy is wrong 99% of the time, dont confuse that with thinking Elan wont stand up to him


By contrast whenever Roy's around Elan instantly becomes the sixth man in a five man band. Instead of taking the initative like he does on his own, with Roy in the picture Elan stays in the back and waits to be told what to do for the most part. And it's getting to the point that he can't develop as a character because he's become emotionally dependent on Roy and won't assert himself. Sure, Roy's the leader, but again, any of Belkar, V, Durkon or Haley will stand up to Roy when he's wrong. None of them would take the level of verbal abuse Roy gives to Elan (although Roy is getting better about this), and from what we see with Roy's reaction with other party members, he only does it to Elan because Elan doesn't force him to realize what he's doing.

he only does it to Elan because Elan always does dumb things that deserve it same way he yells at Belkar when he does dumb things

Roy knows what to do far better then Elan does becuase Roy is very smart

since Elan is a bard (which last time i checked was a support class) and because Roy is both the leader of the OoTS and smarter then Elan it makes eprfect sense that, like every other member of the team, he does what Roy tells him to

[Degausser]

no as he wuite clearly explained, hes doing it to live the life of luxury for 20-30 years and then be remembered as the msot badass villain ever for eternity


completely utterly wrong, he didnt WANT to kill Nale, he did everything he could to avoid killing Nale

he didnt WANT malack to die, he never thought for a second Nale was going to be that dumb


Sorry, My bad. I worded that poorly. Yes, Tarquin wants to live a life of luxury. Okay, yes, obvious. Also, I misspoke, I meant "Son revenge on father" plots, not the other way around.

Point still stands though. He shed no tears over Malack, and, at best, regarded his death as 'regrettable.' (and that's pushing it.) AND he murdered his own son (that he had raised) in cold blood when he realized he couldn't get anything more out of him. No one forced his hand, there was no political situation that required his death. He was the leader of a country, could have done whatever he wanted. Plus we KNOW he's amoral enough that he could have mind controlled him or mind-wiped him or done any number of other things, but no. Nale made clear that he was no longer useful to Tarquin, so, rather than having his son as a wild card, murdered him.

Tarquin . . . he's like a spoiled rich teenager. He wants everything to go exactly his way (he wants Elan to be more powerful so he can have a cool showdown later, he wants Nale to follow exactly in his footsteps.) He THINKS he has the world figured out, but he doesn't. He has NO understanding of ANYTHING that doesn't involve conflict or scheming for conflict. I honestly don't think he could possibly conceive of Elan being happy settling down and having a family and living a quiet life with Haley. Hell, he can BARELY conceive of his son dating Haley and contrives a test for her 'to see if she is up to dating his son.'

[mhsmith]

All I'll say is: There are known lawful characters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)who deceive in this manner. It is a staple of the lawful alignment, esp. lawful evil. Even lawful goods use it when needed. And not just lawful good, but those who are arguably held to even a higher standard.
.

Right. It's basically a Neutral act, and Neutral acts don't remotely disqualify you from being Lawful (except perhaps if you're constantly doing Neutral acts). But it's not a Lawful act in and of itself.

wrt Tarqin and Lawful Evil, his latest Motive Rant does strongly suggest that's his actual alignment. That said, if he is truly Lawful then (unless I'm completely missing something) he's a "personal code" Lawful, and Giant has weighed in on those guys before - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15363938&postcount=29 .

I wouldn't be surprised at all if at some point his personal code gets tested in a meaningful way. I acknowledge that there's increasingly solid evidence pointing to Lawful, but I'm still holding on to some skepticism until that code truly gets tested (maybe just because I'm stubborn).

[Raenir Salazar]

The "blaming Elan" thing can reasonably be construed from Roy's father's similar statements about the Azure City Battle. Elan is a PC, it was his argument to lose.

[ReaderAt2046]

The thing to focus on is that whatever Tarquin does, Elan is a Bard. He is physically incapable of "leading the charge", whether he has meat shields or not. Does Tarquin expect him to multiclass? If not, then he'll have to settle for being defeated by brains, not brawn. That's how all the best heroes do it.


I wouldn't have minded Elan not leading the charge if it was because Elan was sending in The Big Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBigGuy) first, like Nale did with that idiot half-Orc of his. The problem with Elan not leading the charge is that it makes him look like he's not the hero if he's not careful. That in and of itself can be overcome, but not if he's got this Greenhilt Malignant Plot Tumor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MalignantPlotTumor) keeping him from reaching his full potential
.~.~.~.~.~