How do I beat a Gunslinger?

[Perpetr8r]

I need help to overcome the issue of guns hitting touch ac.


I have a gunslinger who I am beginning at lvl 6 to have trouble challenging I introduced a few heavily armored foes which did well for the others, a challenge but not overly but the Gunslinger just walked through the ones he fought because he has to hit much lower

What feats, items, magic would help with my monsters against a gunslinger who does nothing but hit touch attack with his stupid musket.

Without stealing his gun...for the third time.

[GutterFace]

Since they are a ranged class, can you give more enemies cover? or blind him in some regard?

both seem to really lock down someone that can only do ranged damage.

[Fax Celestis]

I need help to overcome the issue of guns hitting touch ac.


I have a gunslinger who I am beginning at lvl 6 to have trouble challenging I introduced a few heavily armored foes which did well for the others, a challenge but not overly but the Gunslinger just walked through the ones he fought because he has to hit much lower

What feats, items, magic would help with my monsters against a gunslinger who does nothing but hit touch attack with his stupid musket.

Without stealing his gun...for the third time.

Archers, other gunslingers, sniper spellcasters, controller spellcasters, monsters with web. Guns only hit touch AC within 30', so you just need to pin him down and then back up.

[Fouredged Sword]

Alternatively, have a battle that the monsters don't mind getting hit.

Zombie, Giant (Storm) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-giant-storm) are easy for anyone to hit, but taking them DOWN is the problem.

Without a good way to punch through that DR, that stack of HP is going to be a challenge even if he lands every shot.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Use high Touch AC characters, you could use...:shudders: monks (or if you are using 3.5 Swordsages).

IIRC the attacks vs. touch only work within certain range increment, you can probably introduce enemies that can stay outside that range (casters or other range-based NPC's)

[Andrewmoreton]

Monks.
Opponents who stay far enough away that he has to hit their full AC
Opponents who close rapidly to melee range , he can't shoot or reload without triggering attacks of opportunity
Heavy Rain
Amulets of Protection from bullets
Incorporeal creatures

[Segev]

Make sure to keep track of his expenditures of ammo. Gunslingers spend a lot for their touch attacks. Make sure you're keeping track of misfire rules, too. Any sort of extended period of time with lesser loot rewards or difficulty finding supplies to replenish his ammo will make him have to conserve it without denying it to him completely. I also think wet ammo doesn't work so well, absent certain precautions. See if he's taking them (or if the rules for wet powder affect him at all). Water obstacles can be an entirely different way of challenging him if he has to be extra-careful around them lest his firearms stop working until the powder dries.

I forget the adaptation in PF, but Wilders in 3.5 had the 2nd level class feature "Elude Touch" which raised their effective touch AC by some amount, capped by their normal AC. I believe the PF version is just better.

Have some of the monsters engage from more than one range increment away. This screws melees over, too, unless they have higher mobility than the gunslinger, but it does keep the gunslinger from using touch attacks.

Creatures whose AC is based on high dex or small Size rather than NAC or armor will work well, too.

I don't know how Protection From Arrows interacts with firearms; if it works, though, it's DR against ranged attacks, which will put a cramp in his style on the damage end even if not the to-hit end.



Finally, Dirty DM Trick #2: Send an NPC who uses his tactics against the party. No, this isn't to "teach them a lesson" or any such nonsense as that; it's to see how they handle it. See what the party does to work against him. Give some IC warning so they have time to prepare just so you can see what their tactics are.

[Novawurmson]

Combat maneuvers are a good place to start (he probably dumped Str)- you don't have to steal his weapon, just disarm him - or grapple him - or dirty trick to blind him. Try to flank him or otherwise deny Dex (it removes Dex AND his nimble bonus to CMD).

Remember ragned attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, so get big creatures with reach to stand on top of him.

Deflect Arrows could work, or Wind Wall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wind-wall). Miss chance in general (i.e. Blur, fighting in darkness) could help.

Check his saves - his Will is probably the lowest, despite likely Wisdom investment. The party would NOT like his DPS turned off (i.e. Hold Person) or turned against them (i.e. Dominate Person).

Remember that any creature can drop prone for a +4 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks.

[Perpetr8r]

Those will work, He is kind of annoying in that he runs right toward a foe till he gets in range and then keeps firing and it makes people difficult since the foes he is fighting are close range fighters and he has peppered them with shots by the time they get close in and he has buddies on either side who set u for melee.

Monks might be fun.. I think the flurry of Shuriken might be interesting if I set their feats just right.

The wet gunpowder would work well.

I can't find my book at the moment but what do you guys know about.. exploding gunpowder?

We have a Custom Race Healbot (A 3 inch tall pixie-like race) who damn near TPKed our party last night with that little rule... She used Burning Disarm on a guy carrying a blunderbuss with a large amount of gunpowder on his size (He was a half orc) and.. well big boom in a small stone hallway.

[Perpetr8r]

I have used Combat Maneuvers against him before... there is a reason the campaign has been nicknamed The Search for Alex's Pants. He got grappled, pinned, and tied up and then used as a barter against the party.

I was not sure if the Prone bonus went to Touch AC

[Segev]

The "Prone bonus" is not listed as "armor" or "natural armor," so applies to touch AC.

If you've got him victimized in other fights, is it really a problem if he shines in some? Don't fall into the trap of thinking that he must be challenged in every fight. Every character deserves a certain level of awesome times to shine. For some, this will be regularly being moderately challenged but coming through triumphant. For others, this will involve being the butt-monkey of some encounters and curb-stomping others.


Sounds like the party uses good tactics. Try using burrowing creatures to close to melee or set things up for surrounds.

Have chargers wait for him to come within range, then dash in to hit him. Especially on horseback. What's the range increment on his gun? A man on horseback has a charge range of 100 ft. Cast Expeditious Retreat on the mount, and this becomes 120 ft. You might be able to set it up so your gunslinger only gets one attack - by moving into range and shooting - before he's charged.

[Perpetr8r]

Oh he has only gotten manhandled a few times no less then the others. I actually like my baddies to use tactics and manuavers to challenge them.

But those where in close quarters where he knew he sucked and our last battle were fighting to very big powerful creatures, Warforged basically and he had plenty of room to zip around and make these monsters who where giving our melee fighters a tough time look like idiots as he was just peppering them with damage when they had 24 or so AC so not huge AC but decent and all he had to hit was their 12 touch.

So I will try some of these to make sure this does not become a cake walk for him. He is the type of player who does like to be challenged and he had a blast playing even when his character got all tangled up and lost his gear. So I am not trying to smash him down but I will watch that I do not accidentally squish his fun.

[Segev]

Oh, yeah. High-armor-AC targets with relatively slow movement? These are made for him to dance around like nobody's business.

I assume his own AC is not as high as the high-armor meleeists' or even the mage (assuming the mage has mage armor and Shield and the like). Sick slightly-lower-accuracy but fast-moving guys on him. Ninjas or monks or swordsages or the like. These guys should be calibrated to have a difficult time hitting the higher-armored warriors, but able to reliably (say, 50-70% of the time) hit the gunslinger.

Let him dart about, and find these guys right next to him, flanking him for getting away from the rest of the party.

If they go and try this on the fighter, let him laugh off their low-accuracy attacks and clock them for having come in reach.

This gives the calibrated fight for the fighter where the gunslinger has to rely on him for defense.

Then, later, you can combine the two for a fight where the side that is able to pick its targets (and force the other to accept it) is at a distinct advantage: if the PCs 'win' that mini-game, the fighter takes on the ninja-guys, and the gunslinger handles the big warforged baddies; if the baddies 'win' it, the gunslinger is spending all fight dodging the ninja-guys and the fighters are pinned down by the warforged.

[Psyren]

Remember that any creature can drop prone for a +4 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks.

"Gun! Hit the deck!!!!"

[Gavinfoxx]

He is kind of annoying in that he runs right toward a foe till he gets in range

What, the foes aren't flying? There is no terrain to stop him? There are no expendable enemies for him to get in range of, in front of the meaningful enemies he WANTS to get in short range of, that he can't get past??

[magwaaf]

as a veteran gunslinger, GET IN THEIR FACE! its so easy, get point blank and mess them up, make them take negatives, its so easy to take a gunslinger out!

wand of precipitation! lol

[ManInOrange]

I would just like to remind you that Deflect Arrows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Deflect_Arrows) does not specify that bullets don't count as projectile weapons for the purpose of that feat. I think a man who swipes his bullet out of the air will probably be sufficient to make him run in terror.

[Platymus Pus]

Touch Attacks

Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
Anything with abnormally high dex, perhaps even DR.

[Gavinfoxx]

Import the spell Scintillating Scales from Spell Compendium from 3.5e, and give things with high natural armor one use wondrous items of it.

[Arutema]

I would just like to remind you that Deflect Arrows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Deflect_Arrows) does not specify that bullets don't count as projectile weapons for the purpose of that feat. I think a man who swipes his bullet out of the air will probably be sufficient to make him run in terror.


Anything with abnormally high dex, perhaps even DR.

Oh god, flashbacks of my gunslinger vs a certain Rakshasa monk. Can barely hit. Even then can't overcome DR/good. Then I get improved disarmed and my gun nearly thrown in a river.

[Perseus]

I would just like to remind you that Deflect Arrows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Deflect_Arrows) does not specify that bullets don't count as projectile weapons for the purpose of that feat. I think a man who swipes his bullet out of the air will probably be sufficient to make him run in terror.

*insert evil cackle*