Was Nale more self-aware of his secondary villain status than his father?

[Gift Jeraff]

The recent discussions of Tarquin thinking the story is about him vs. Elan got me looking back at #458 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html): Nale calls himself a "major recurring antagonist," not "main villain" or anything like that. While major recurring antagonist and main villain aren't mutually exclusive, you'd think Nale of all people wouldn't hesitate to call himself the main villain if he thought he was one.

So was Nale actually less delusional about this than Tarquin? Or am I just over-analyzing a throwaway line?

[Emulgator]

Well Nale worked for Xykon, so he coudn't be main after that. It's in the convention.

[Mike Havran]

The recent discussions of Tarquin thinking the story is about him vs. Elan got me looking back at #458 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html): Nale calls himself a "major recurring antagonist," not "main villain" or anything like that. While major recurring antagonist and main villain aren't mutually exclusive, you'd think Nale of all people wouldn't hesitate to call himself the main villain if he thought he was one.

So was Nale actually less delusional about this than Tarquin? Or am I just over-analyzing a throwaway line?Nale thought of himself considerably smarter than Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html), that implies his delusions were right up there.

[Hajutze]

While Xykon has his moments, he doesn't strike me as particularly genius.

[ti'esar]

I think it's more likely that Nale simply didn't see the world entirely in terms of narrative tropes the way Tarquin does. Their "delusions" are pretty much on the same level; it's just that Nale's not going to see things in terms of being the "main villain".

[Xelbiuj]

I think he was more self aware. He was just apathetic to everything with his own ego.

I believe that Tarquin in genuinely flipping insane. Not just a tropesian sociopath but like totally deranged. Incapable of seeing "reality" and only sees themes, plot, etc. . . ironic as it may be, he can't think within the comic, his mind only comprehends outside the 4th wall.

[Rakoa]

Nale thought of himself considerably smarter than Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html), that implies his delusions were right up there.

Xykon...does not strike me as particularly bright. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Nale was smarter than him. Now, to say he was wiser, on the other hand...

[The Oni]

Yeah, Xykon is probably not that smart TBH. What he is is smart enough, and with the Wisdom + Charisma(-based spellcasting) to make full use of it. He's made it as far as he has because he's got enough common sense to not be a walking cliche when it suits him.

Vaarsuvius is probably much smarter than Xykon - but that didn't do him any good, did it?

[Emulgator]

Vaarsuvius is probably much smarter than Xykon - but that didn't do him any good, did it?

Not with Redcloak around, giving X tactical advice.

[Synesthesy]

Nale WAS smarter then Xykon. Nale's plans never worked, but they were still better then "sacrificing minions". I guess that Nale had a better INT score then Xykon, having less WIS and much less CHA.

[Ramien]

Nale thought of himself considerably smarter than Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html), that implies his delusions were right up there.

Nale is smarter than Xykon, stat-wise at least. He was also pretty spot on in the rest of his analysis on that page.

Nale wasn't an idiot, just someone with a love for complexity that rivaled Tarquin and Elan's love for dramatic situations. He was fairly aware of his place in the story's pecking order, and kept hoping to break into the big time.

[AKA_Bait]

Let's not forget that Xykon was a small time baddie flying about torching things for fun in his old age before he met Redcloak.

[Quorothorn]

On topic, I say yes, Nale was, by comparison, if only because he is not as in love with dramatic conventions. Nale's "meta awareness" was always at more of a world-standard level for OOTS, whereas Tarquin takes it to another level/direction (the fact that he is also wrong about many narrative points is another, albeit related, subject).


Nale WAS smarter then Xykon. Nale's plans never worked, but they were still better then "sacrificing minions". I guess that Nale had a better INT score then Xykon, having less WIS and much less CHA.

If Xykon's "sacrificing minions" policy, amongst others, gives good results consistently, is it not clearly a better plan than Nale's typical machinations? :smallwink:

More seriously: follow the bouncing ball, children. Xykon is dangerously cunning when he actually feels like it. This has been consistently established: underestimate his mind at your peril.

[Kish]

The recent discussions of Tarquin thinking the story is about him vs. Elan got me looking back at #458 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html): Nale calls himself a "major recurring antagonist," not "main villain" or anything like that. While major recurring antagonist and main villain aren't mutually exclusive, you'd think Nale of all people wouldn't hesitate to call himself the main villain if he thought he was one.

So was Nale actually less delusional about this than Tarquin? Or am I just over-analyzing a throwaway line?
No, I think you're right. Nale aspired to be "promoted," as it were, but he knew that he wasn't the main villain yet anyway, and he knew, at least when he reminded himself, that Elan was neither the leader of the Order of the Stick nor the character most qualified to be said leader.

[Warren Dew]

My impression is that Xykon is smarter than Nale and possibly smarter than Vaarsuvius. Granted that impression comes mainly from Start of Darkness.

Edit: perhaps the reason Nale is more aware of his secondary villain status is because he loses more often.

[busterswd]

I think it's more likely that Nale simply didn't see the world entirely in terms of narrative tropes the way Tarquin does. Their "delusions" are pretty much on the same level; it's just that Nale's not going to see things in terms of being the "main villain".


I think he was more self aware. He was just apathetic to everything with his own ego.

This and this. Nale wasn't a villain in someone's story, he was, as he put it, "his own man." I doubt he really saw, or cared to see, beyond himself and his own problems/desires.

[veti]

This and this. Nale wasn't a villain in someone's story, he was, as he put it, "his own man." I doubt he really saw, or cared to see, beyond himself and his own problems/desires.

:nale: You see, kid, when it comes to being tagonists, we're more "an" while you're pretty clearly a "pro" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html)

A "protagonist" is the central character of a story. An "antagonist" is their opponent.

Nale is the only character (ever, in the history of fantasy literature, as far as I'm aware) who has explicitly identified himself as not "his own man", but a villain in someone else's story.

[Maryring]

To be fair, the bouncing ball really shouldn't have worked. You do not gain claim to intelligence by relying on a plan that should not have worked if the enemy had the sense to defend themselves properly.

[TRH]

To be fair, the bouncing ball really shouldn't have worked. You do not gain claim to intelligence by relying on a plan that should not have worked if the enemy had the sense to defend themselves properly.

Defend with what? Most of their clerics were on the wall, and they didn't seem to swim in wizards, so I'm not sure who you expect to have been able to cast protection spells (not sure what spell would be applicable, but it doesn't matter) on a hundred-odd paladins.

[busterswd]

:nale: You see, kid, when it comes to being tagonists, we're more "an" while you're pretty clearly a "pro" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html)

A "protagonist" is the central character of a story. An "antagonist" is their opponent.

Nale is the only character (ever, in the history of fantasy literature, as far as I'm aware) who has explicitly identified himself as not "his own man", but a villain in someone else's story.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html

Those were actually his exact dying words.

He's extraordinarily self absorbed, though, and I'd argue "antagonist" was basically used as a reference to his identity as evil, not as a second fiddle to Elan's story. My impression of Nale is that he's very adverse to people relegating him to being a plot element in a story, because he's more important than that. Ironically, his "evil opposites" idea does just this to himself, but since it's his own idea, he doesn't second guess it. After all, once he's offed Elan, his story will continue going on.

Tarquin, on the other hand, bases his entire world view as a powerful threat who's nonetheless going to be inevitably defeated in someone else's story. He's learned to roll with the punches because of it and won't be surprised that he's been foiled.

[veti]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html

Those were actually his exact dying words.

He's extraordinarily self absorbed, though, and I'd argue "antagonist" was basically used as a reference to his identity as evil, not as a second fiddle to Elan's story. My impression of Nale is that he's very adverse to people relegating him to being a plot element in a story, because he's more important than that. Ironically, his "evil opposites" idea does just this to himself, but since it's his own idea, he doesn't second guess it. After all, once he's offed Elan, his story will continue going on.

And those dying words are Nale's character development. For a few seconds there, he was flirting with actual sanity. However, even then he was talking specifically about his relationship with Tarquin, not with Elan.

As you yourself note, the "evil opposites" theme meant that he was - quite deliberately and self-consciously - basing his whole life around the goal of "foiling/opposing his brother".

Another relevant quote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html):
:nale:If we stuck around here we wouldn't get nearly the amount of spotlight that we, as major recurring villains, deserve.

See? Not only does he call himself a recurring villain - implying that the story is not his own, because how can you "recur" in your own story? - but also he knows that there's a narrative "spotlight", and its default position is not on him. He only gets noticed when he's foiling Elan.

Then there's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html):
:nale: Well, I was going to monologue my entire villainous plot to you, but now I guess the readers will have to wait...

All in all, Nale was amazingly aware of precisely what he was. It's what made him so much more fun than Tarquin.

[mhsmith]

While Xykon has his moments, he doesn't strike me as particularly genius.


Yeah, Xykon is probably not that smart TBH. What he is is smart enough, and with the Wisdom + Charisma(-based spellcasting) to make full use of it. He's made it as far as he has because he's got enough common sense to not be a walking cliche when it suits him.

Vaarsuvius is probably much smarter than Xykon - but that didn't do him any good, did it?


Not with Redcloak around, giving X tactical advice.

FWIW, Xykon probably gets smoked without Redcloak's foresight in installing the trap http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html . Time Stop + overwhelming arcane power = no more Xykon.

[Newwby]

Let's not forget that Xykon was a small time baddie flying about torching things for fun in his old age before he met Redcloak.

Very well pointed out! Without Redcloak's 'leadership' (of sorts), Xykon wouldn't have been a particularly impressive villain. Roy (particularly with the backup of the order and a lack of goblin soldiers on Xykon's part) wouldn't have had much of a problem against a non-lich Xykon.

Ergo Nale is very much correct about being more intelligent than Xykon so I think I'm going to come down on the 'Nale had more self awareness than Tarquin' side of this debate.

Man if two months back someone had told me I'd be stating 'Nale has some form of social awareness' I'da never believed them. How Tarquin has fallen.

[GreyHound]

It always seemed to me that Nale had a better understanding of his place in the story than other characters.

In regards to Xykon, he just doesn't care. He doesn't care about his minions, who the heroes are, or if other people are smarter than him.

IMO:
What's crazy about Tarquin is that he doesn't care if he's wrong about being the main villain or Elan being the main hero.

If Elan's not the main hero, Tarquin's going to try and make him the main hero by killing everyone else (i.e. Roy).

[Quorothorn]

To be fair, the bouncing ball really shouldn't have worked. You do not gain claim to intelligence by relying on a plan that should not have worked if the enemy had the sense to defend themselves properly.

How, exactly, should it "not have worked", especially in light of the fact that oh gee, it did work.

[TRH]

FWIW, Xykon probably gets smoked without Redcloak's foresight in installing the trap http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html . Time Stop + overwhelming arcane power = no more Xykon.

That alone doesn't say much about Xykon himself with regards to planning. For one, a (seemingly) new and unknown enemy just burst out of nowhere and through their Cloister spell. That alone should have been adequate insurance against your average Scry-and-Die. And really, how many enemies do you expect to be able to beat that, but not be able to make an (apparently) easy Concentration check? It was protection against nothing that Team Evil could have reasonably foreseen, and it just happened to come in handy when an enemy with a weird mishmash of abilities came knocking.

[veti]

That alone doesn't say much about Xykon himself with regards to planning. For one, a (seemingly) new and unknown enemy just burst out of nowhere and through their Cloister spell. That alone should have been adequate insurance against your average Scry-and-Die. And really, how many enemies do you expect to be able to beat that, but not be able to make an (apparently) easy Concentration check? It was protection against nothing that Team Evil could have reasonably foreseen, and it just happened to come in handy when an enemy with a weird mishmash of abilities came knocking.

Having protection against something that can't reasonably be foreseen - is not a bad definition of "planning". That's why Nale's plans were so bad - anything not explicitly foreseen would derail him completely within about two panels. But Redcloak's plans are pretty impressive, and robust against many unforeseen contingencies. Just ask Tsukiko.

[TRH]

Having protection against something that can't reasonably be foreseen - is not a bad definition of "planning". That's why Nale's plans were so bad - anything not explicitly foreseen would derail him completely within about two panels. But Redcloak's plans are pretty impressive, and robust against many unforeseen contingencies. Just ask Tsukiko.

You're shifting goalposts - an absence of what you consider "good planning" isn't evidence of bad planning, which was the original assertion. And no, it isn't good planning to expend resources on things that aren't "reasonable" to foresee - you're just biased in that direction because it randomly happened to pay off. If some character started carrying around a baking powder shotgun just in case they got attacked by aliens with acid blood, would you praise their good planning even when no aliens showed up? No, you'd call them an idiot.

The issue's not with trying to plan for unexpected events, it's that some events are more plausible than others, and with finite resources, it makes more sense to focus on genuinely probable threats. This is all a tangent, of course, the original assertion is that Xykon is a bad planner because he could have died to an epic-level Scry-and-Die from an out-of-context enemy. You know who else in this story could die to such an attack? How about everybody?

[mhsmith]

That alone doesn't say much about Xykon himself with regards to planning. For one, a (seemingly) new and unknown enemy just burst out of nowhere and through their Cloister spell. That alone should have been adequate insurance against your average Scry-and-Die. And really, how many enemies do you expect to be able to beat that, but not be able to make an (apparently) easy Concentration check? It was protection against nothing that Team Evil could have reasonably foreseen, and it just happened to come in handy when an enemy with a weird mishmash of abilities came knocking.

FWIW I was responding to

Vaarsuvius is probably much smarter than Xykon - but that didn't do him any good, did it?


the point being that had it just been Darth V vs Xykon, with no outside assistance, Xykon gets smoked.

[TRH]

FWIW I was responding to

Vaarsuvius is probably much smarter than Xykon - but that didn't do him any good, did it?


the point being that had it just been Darth V vs Xykon, with no outside assistance, Xykon gets smoked.


Oh, my apologies then, I should have paid more attention. Still, so long as I'm over here, I'd point people to the end of SOD and challenge them to say that what Xykon did there wasn't diabolically cunning. The guy lacks a work effort, not brains.

[Emanick]

You're shifting goalposts - an absence of what you consider "good planning" isn't evidence of bad planning, which was the original assertion. And no, it isn't good planning to expend resources on things that aren't "reasonable" to foresee - you're just biased in that direction because it randomly happened to pay off. If some character started carrying around a baking powder shotgun just in case they got attacked by aliens with acid blood, would you praise their good planning even when no aliens showed up? No, you'd call them an idiot.

The issue's not with trying to plan for unexpected events, it's that some events are more plausible than others, and with finite resources, it makes more sense to focus on genuinely probable threats. This is all a tangent, of course, the original assertion is that Xykon is a bad planner because he could have died to an epic-level Scry-and-Die from an out-of-context enemy. You know who else in this story could die to such an attack? How about everybody?

Honestly, Xykon is probably one of the most likely beings in the multiverse to be targeted by an epic scry-and-die attack. If you're an epic spellcaster and have enough power and resources to conduct that kind of attack, then Xykon, as one of the very few visible beings on the Material Plane who poses a plausible threat to the safety of the world, is probably going to be one of the first people you would consider attacking. In that sense, protecting Xykon is kind of like protecting the President of the United States in our world (no political analogies intended here) - it's worth taking precautions against fairly unlikely events if you have the resources to do so (Redcloak apparently did, and perhaps he had nothing better to use them for), because a heck of a lot of people want your charge dead, and a tiny minority of them may have the power to do something both unorthodox and legitimately dangerous.

Yes, it was unlikely that anyone who could break through Cloister could fail a Concentration check as easily as V did, but the attack still seems to have done significant damage. Besides, there was always the possibility of it doing something else unexpectedly helpful, and that in fact was what happened. Sometimes, there being no better testing standard available, the best test of a plan's quality is whether or not it works.

[Paseo H]

I've not fully read Start of Darkness so I can't say for sure, but my impression is:

Xykon isn't stupid, he's impulsive. He might seem like a short sighted, pleasure seeking moron who only keeps things together because his more staid minions make sure the trains run on time, but occasionally he surprises you with some deep insights, like the "Power is power" speech and how he vouchsafed his grip over Redcloak in SoD.

So he's not stupid. It's that when surrounded by more patient and philosophical types, his impulsiveness looks more reckless by comparison.

[gerryq]

Having protection against something that can't reasonably be foreseen - is not a bad definition of "planning". That's why Nale's plans were so bad - anything not explicitly foreseen would derail him completely within about two panels. But Redcloak's plans are pretty impressive, and robust against many unforeseen contingencies. Just ask Tsukiko.

His planning of the assault on Azure City was pretty good too.

[Trillium]

I doubt Nale thought in such terms. He despises bards and their outlook, as if the world is a story. Basically, that's why he clashed with Tarquin in the first place - Tarquin followed storytelling traditions, while Nale wanted to claim power without following those traditions.



Regarding Xykon - even Elan is smarter than Xykon =\

[Kish]

I doubt Nale thought in such terms. He despises bards and their outlook, as if the world is a story. Basically, that's why he clashed with Tarquin in the first place - Tarquin followed storytelling traditions, while Nale wanted to claim power without following those traditions.

I think you have the cart before the horse.

I also think you're exaggerating Nale's negative feelings toward bards; he was perfectly willing to recruit Elan for his adventuring party, remember?


Regarding Xykon - even Elan is smarter than Xykon =\
...Uh.

[Trillium]

I think you have the cart before the horse.

I also think you're exaggerating Nale's negative feelings toward bards; he was perfectly willing to recruit Elan for his adventuring party, remember?

...Uh.

As I understand, it was not for Elan's his power, it was for the sake of being officially superior than his brother, to command him, and to show his father that both of his sons oppose him.
After all, he did hire useless trash kobolds just because they were invincible Belkar's "evil opposites".

What Xykon wins in pure brain-power (which is still insignificant) he "makes up" for in brainless brutality, carelessness and arrogance.
Elan is at least clever enough to listen to those smarter than him and to be aware of the storyline.

After all, we don't know how low his Wisdom is. He seems a pretty wise guy.
As opposed to Xykon.

[Liliet]

...yet another good explanation for why Nale should have killed Tarquin there, not the other way round.

I really, really hope there's some way for Nale to come back. He WAS fun, and much more fun than Tarquin. Maybe he was less effective in conquering empires, but he didn't seem all that interested in such activities. He was definitely more successful in making himself a recurring and major love-to-hate character, and about assaulting the Order... we're about to see how successful Tarquin is in that, with all his Empire and (Wrong) Genre Savvy.