Mystic Ranger: Now What?

[Eonir]

So for my current game I have decided to step into the realm of the Mystic Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III?pg=6). In short, it's a fantastic class (ranger has always been one of my favorites, and giving it more spells just made me giddy) and i've had a blast so far. However, I have finally hit 12th level and now I feel a little lost. Should I keep progressing as ranger or multiclass? Drop out at 17th level when I stop getting new spells? Stay a few more levels for camouflage and HiPS, then drop out? I need some ideas on what to do now.

Rules: No tier 1 or 2 classes. ANY book (from any campaign setting). Cheese is good. Retraining allowed....you get it. My DM is pretty chill about all the stuff (removing the first two tiers cuts down on the shenanigans pretty hardcore).

And....go!

[Tvtyrant]

Grab a level of Bard and then take sublime chord for your Mystic Ranger classes? I am not sure if that works exactly, but I know there are some ways to get prep casters into spont and vice versa.

[OldTrees1]

Grab a level of Bard and then take sublime chord for your Mystic Ranger classes? I am not sure if that works exactly, but I know there are some ways to get prep casters into spont and vice versa.

He did say no tier 2 classes. Sublime chord turns the character into a high level sorceror after a few levels.

I would recommend the Ranger Handbook: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872930/The_3.5_Ranger_Handbook

1 level of scout with the swift hunter feat can be an improvement depending on your combat style.

There are the martial adept classes (Tome of Battle) that make useful multiclassing.

[Larkas]

If you want to follow Tvtyrant's advice, take a look at my Mystic Ranger-based Sublime Chord builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267260).

Though to be honest, that should shoot you straight into tier 2 territory. If you still like the idea and want to go easy, I recommend the first build ("Divine Persist"). You could also take the bits and pieces you like the most and assemble a less powerful build. Specifically, you could simply drop the Persist Spell focus from the first build, along with the Wild Shape variant and Natural Spell, and end up with a fairly low tier 2 character. Pick reasonable spells and you should be able to play just fine with any tier 3-or-lower party.

[Srasy]

I would go wildshape mystic ranger then retrain some of your ranger levels for master of many forms levels and go to town a wartroll / teredactal/anything you want

[Grayson01]

DEEPWOOD SNIPER from Master's Of the Wild! Why just for the fun of it.

[Coidzor]

1 level of scout with the swift hunter feat can be an improvement depending on your combat style.

I believe you need more than one level of scout for Swift Hunter (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html) builds.

IIRC, Suel Arcanamach + Abjurant Champion isn't considered too bad at supplementing the last 10 levels of a Mystic Ranger build.

Wildshape Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order (AKA Swordshape Mystic Ranger) is Tier 1 up until 10th level or so and then drops down to tier 3 once it stops getting new spell levels. Works fairly well with Master of Many Forms due to the Wildshape abilities, though Nature's Warrior and Warshaper also have some potential for mixing in there.

[OldTrees1]

I believe you need more than one level of scout for Swift Hunter (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html) builds.


Oops you are right it takes 3 levels of scout to trigger swift hunter.

[gorfnab]

Mystic (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10830.0) Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868838/Mystic_Ranger_-_The_ultimate_gish?pg=1) Threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162778)
Mystic Ranger 12/ Swordsage 2/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6 - TWF + Shadow Pouncing is kinda neat

[Eonir]

Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Much love for all the responses!

[Tvtyrant]

Another possible solution is to take 10 levels of Chameleon, which grants a hefty series of bonuses and continues the dual magic and melee combat aspects of the Mystic Ranger.

[Captnq]

Tell me you took SWORD OF THE ARCANE ORDER from Champions of Valor.

You didn't, did you?

Ya know, I was working on a handbook on this a while ago... Ah. Here'd the section on that feat:


Now before we go any further, we will have to examine the main lynch pin of the more popular mystic ranger builds. The feat Sword of the arcane order

SWORD OF THE ARCANE ORDER [General]
- Champions of Valor (3.5)
Description: Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic.
Prerequisites: Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra; member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire , the Order of the Shooting Star, or the Swords of the High One.
Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character’s spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook; see Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks, page 178 of the Player’s Handbook, for details). If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.
Special: Azuth has a paladin order called the Swords of the High One, Mystra has a paladin order called the Knights of the Mystic Fire and a closely allied group of rangers called the Order of the Shooting Star. Members of all three of these groups can select this feat as long as they are at least 4th level in their respective order’s primary class.

Also important is the part from the feat summary table in Champions of Valor. “Use paladin or ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells that you know; add paladin and ranger class levels to your wizard level to determine your wizard caster level.” (Emphasis is the editor’s)

Problem #1
Does This Feat Give You Access To Wizard Spells?
Now, at first glance, the answer would seem obvious. If you can memorize wizard spells, you clearly have access to the spell list. This would be the RAW reading of the feat. It’s poorly worded, but clearly, you can read the spells from other spellbooks, so you must be able to cast them, ergo, you have access to the wizard spell list.
That’s why I included the section from the feat summary table. The feat summary has additional words the feat itself does not, “…wizard spells that you know.” Now this would imply that the intention of the feat was to allow you to use the wizard spell list that you get from a level of wizard and memorize those spells in your ranger spell slots.
However, information under the feat summary table is not valid. WotC has specifically stated that only the information written under a specific feat pertains to that feat. The information from the table is informative, but circumstantial and cannot be used in game. So we have the problem of which way to read it. Does it give a ranger access to the wizard spell list, or must he take at least one level of wizard to have access to the spells so he can have access to the list, and thus memorize wizard spells in his ranger spell slots?
If it is the first way (RAW), then a level of wizard is not needed. You can learn any wizard spell, use magic items that require access to the wizard spell list, and all the other perks that go with it. If it is the second way (RAI), then you need to buy at least one level of wizard to use this feat, or it is worthless. However, once you have that level, you do not need to buy any more levels.
For example, if you were a mystic ranger 4th/wizard 1st, then you can memorize second level wizard spells in your 2nd level mystic ranger spell slots, without being a 3rd level wizard. Once you have the first level of wizard you “know” all spells on the list. You just need to get a copy in a spellbook. Once you have a copy, you can memorize it.
Which one is correct? That is up to your DM to choose. It could go either way, but the editor has a leaning towards the second (RAI) interpretation. The reason will be evident in the answer to the next question.

Problem #2
Are Wizards Spells Cast From Ranger Slots Arcane Or Divine?
Rangers are divine spellcasters. Wizards are arcane spellcasters. If you have a wizard spell in an ranger spell slot, which one it is? I believe the answer depends on if you think the ranger needs to take a level of wizard to have access to wizard spells.
If you believe the ranger does not need to take a level of wizard, then effectively you are giving the mystic ranger access to the wizard spell list. This means that despite the fact that the spell requires you to have intelligence to cast the spell, you are still just casting the spell using ranger spell slots. Ergo, the spell has to be divine.
If you believe that the ranger has to take a level of wizard, then effectively the ranger is loaning spell slots to the wizard class. If you are giving spell slots to the wizard class, then the spells remain arcane. As evidence that this is the intent of the feat is that it specifically states that all wizard spells are cast off of intelligence and not off of wisdom.
So what’s the difference? It’s all just semantics, right? Well, the difference in divine verses arcane affects how you build your character. It determines if you need to spend a level on wizard or not. When you qualify for certain PrCs. Weird spell combinations. Frankly, being able to convert wizard spells into divine spells opens up a whole world of opportunity, the least of which is, no arcane spell failure. So which one is it? Again, depends on how you answer the first question.

Problem #3
What Level Should You Be To Take This Feat?
The feat clearly says that you need to be a fourth level ranger to take it. That’s RAW, plain and simple. But why is it fourth? It’s fourth because the base ranger class doesn’t get spells before fourth level. The mystic ranger gets spells at first level. So, you could make a case for being able to learn this feat at first.
Is that balanced? Well, to capitalize on a number of builds, you would have to be a fourth level ranger anyways. So what’s the point? Well, you only get feats at 1st, 3rd and 6th level. So that means that you either need a DM who allows retraining, you need to take endurance at 3rd level and then when you get endurance at 4th level you automatically get to retrain your 3rd level feat, or you have to suck it up and take it at 6th level. Allowing the feat to be available at 1st level makes such feat juggling unnecessary and simplifies things. Talk it over with your DM to determine his preference. All the builds here will be based on requiring the feat at 4th.

Problem #4
What Gods Should be Allowed For This Feat?
By RAW, you must worship either Mystra and Azuth to get this feat. However, not everyone plays in Forgotten Realms. It is suggested that you allow anyone who worships a god of magic to take this feat.

Party Role
The Magic Addict
Now, by exploiting Sword of the Arcane Order and Mystic Theurge, you can surge ahead as an arcane spellcaster getting 5th level spells faster then anyone! And like most addicts, you then burn out, never advancing any further. You sacrifice the fighter side of your gish-build in exchange for raw magical power that impresses people in the short run, but in the long run costs you BAB, saving throws, and feats. Or, if your DM won’t let you exploit mystic theurge to it’s full potential, you can go the Sublime Chord route and max out your wizard caster level around 32 by 20th level.

Ranged Dude
The ideal combo is an archer ranger who uses ray spells. The ranger has many good options for use of arrows. Take the feat Sword of the Arcane Order and you open yourself up to the wizard spell list and many a useful ray spell. The downside of a ray specialist wizard is the lousy BAB, which is totally negated by the mystic ranger’s full BAB progression. If you run out of spells, you have a quiver full of a dozen different types of arrows. Twang, baby!

The Survivor
The loss of melee weapons, shields, and armor (if you want to cast arcane spells) means that your AC is going to suffer, so up close and personal fighting becomes problematic. Dual wielding simple weapons kinda sucks. That said, there is a Mystic Ranger/Monk build that makes a rather interesting Drop-Me-Naked-Anywhere-I’ll-MacGuyver-My-Way-Out-Of-Anything build which could be interesting in a low magic campaign. You never lose your hands (or if you do, fighting is going to be the least of your problem). You have a wide ranger of spells at your disposal (especially if you take one level of wizard and the ACF that lets you keep your spellbooks in your head). You also have the points to be a passable skill-monkey. This makes for a poor team player, but an excellent choice if you are playing solo.

Flashy Guy
Flashy guy doesn’t give a damn about what’s effective and focuses on what’s cool. Save-or-suck is for wusses! We dip into fighter for a few levels so we can swing around our twin, over-sized scimitars or lightning maces or spiked chain, or whatever cool looking weapon we can find. If that doesn’t work, we drop a fireball on ourselves and laugh while the world burns. He’s grim. He’s gritty. For breakfast, he chews glass. Okay, it’s less then optimal, but sometimes you want to mess around with all those powers you were too afraid to take.


Never did finish the builds. Did get all the ACFs in one place, however, PM me if yer interested.

[Fax Celestis]

Weird build idea.

Mystic Ranger 3/Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin 7/Ultimate Magus 10.

EDIT: Come to think of it, you could walk into Ultimate Magus as a SotAO Mystic Ranger 4.

[Larkas]

Weird build idea.

Mystic Ranger 3/Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin 7/Ultimate Magus 10.

EDIT: Come to think of it, you could walk into Ultimate Magus as a SotAO Mystic Ranger 4.

Hmmm, they'd be drawing from the same list, doesn't sound too great... What about Mystic Ranger (Sword of the Arcane Order) X/ Duskblade Y/ Ultimate Magus 10?

[Fax Celestis]

Sure, you'd be drawing from the same list, but you'd be advancing at two caster levels per level.

[Turion]

Weird build idea.

Mystic Ranger 3/Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin 7/Ultimate Magus 10.

EDIT: Come to think of it, you could walk into Ultimate Magus as a SotAO Mystic Ranger 4.

I feel kinda dumb for asking, but where do either of those builds get spontaneous arcane casting? I'm only seeing prepared arcane and prepared divine, so I feel like I'm missing an ACF or something.

[Larkas]

Sure, you'd be drawing from the same list, but you'd be advancing at two caster levels per level.

D'oh, of course! CL 27 is nothing to scoff at.

Still, now I'm pumped with that Mystic Ranger/Duskblade build. Too bad it can't reach 5th level Duskblade spells before epic levels. :smallfrown: Mystic Ranger (SotAO) 1/ Duskblade 5/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Abjurant Champion 4 (with Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans) can only reach Duskblade CL 16, 1 short of 5ths... For regular play, I think that the best build would be Mystic Ranger (SotAO) 4/ Duskblade 6/ Ultimate Magus 10, which gets just enough CL to cast Duskblade 4ths...

Of course, those builds cap at +15 BAB. If you want +16, drop 2 levels of Ultimate Magus and get levels in Duskblade or Abjurant Champion.

[Darrin]

Oops you are right it takes 3 levels of scout to trigger swift hunter.

You could also use Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Highland Stalker 4, but Swift Hunter comes in very late (ECL 18). Full BAB, though.

I'd probably consider Scout 4/Ranger +1/Highland Stalker 2/Ranger +1. 6d6 Skirmish, 8d6 with Improved Skirmish, 3 favored enemies.

Or if you're looking for higher level spells... Nar Demonbinder 7/Spellsword 1 might work.

[Fax Celestis]

I feel kinda dumb for asking, but where do either of those builds get spontaneous arcane casting? I'm only seeing prepared arcane and prepared divine, so I feel like I'm missing an ACF or something.

Oh, no, you're right. My group plays with spontaneous halfcasters (paladin, ranger, hexblade, spellthief), so I sort of mentally assume that's how it actually is at this point.

[Eonir]

I seriously looked into Sword of the Arcane Order, but I decided that it was against the spirit of the campaign.

I was thinking maybe ranger12/avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)7/sneakattackfighter1. Our crusader and JPM keep people flanked and with the number of attacks I have as an archer those SA's will add up. And the avenger spells supplement the spell slots I would have missed out on.

Thoughts?

[Rebel7284]

Factotum 8 would give you extra actions at level 20 and more skill use before then.

Chameleon is a good idea too.

Just going Warblade may be nice too. Start with 4th level maneuvers.

Going cleric so you can persist Hunter's Eye is not bad either. :) Edit.. right, no tier 1. Dread Necro 1 gives Turn Undead too!