[Lore] Thayan Knights

[Fax Celestis]

Someone tell me about the lore for these guys? Looking for more than just what's in the PrC description.

[Flickerdart]

I don't know anything about them, but I do know that you should change the title to "The Knights Who Thay Ni".

[Feralventas]

If I recall correctly, you're talking about the prestige class in Complete Warrior's list of PrC's which deals with a servant to a spellcaster. While I don't think I can tell you more than what you know of the PrC and its members, I can tell you a little about Thay.

First off, you should know that the Red Wizards pretty much run this place (See Red Wizard PrC in DMG). There are 8 Zulkirs (at least there were in 3.5's Faerun) who are governers over one section or another of Thay. Each Zulkir specializes in one schoo, so with 8 of them they've got one high level if not epic spellcaster for each school of magic.

They run a pretty horrible country. Slavery and human-rights violations all over the place, with debtors, criminals and pretty much anyone without enough money or say in the magocracy are either left to their own devices if they're lucky or pulled into servitude, slavery, or hacked up for spare bits in the necromancy and divination departments.

They regularly upset the neighbors, both the Rashemi people on one side and I believe the Simbul's realm on the other.

There was a block of books that took place in Thay immediately before and after the start of the Spellplague, and it's under new management as of 4th ed....well, different management. One of the Zulkirs, Szas Tam the Necromancer, managed to oust the others in an attempt to build up one epic spell that required him to have absolute control over the country to craft it into a focus. He has about 900 years until Bane gets his soul for the evil deity's contributions to his war effort in the civil war that resulted in him running Thay while most of the Red Wizards hung out at their former colony turned head-quarters.

In light of Szas Tam's conquest, Thay has gone from bad to worse for the general population and the place looks a lot like Geb from Pathfinder's setting minus the egyptian motif.

[Fax Celestis]

Alright. If there really isn't any more information about the Red Wizard's guardians, then I'll just have to make it up as I go.

Could one reasonably be assumed to be a guardian for a Red Wizard, fail at your task of guarding them, and instead of being thrown into the gladiatorial pits (or prison, or worse), flee the country instead? It would mean possibly being pursued by some very dangerous people, but given some luck and enough skill, things are possible.

Lore relevance is for 3.5 era, if it matters.

[herrhauptmann]

Sure, there's Thayan Enclaves too. Outposts where that has wizards sell stuff li,e tattoos and potions for cheap, while spying on their host. Like embassies, that law rules in the enclaves.

If that's too easy, remember that the wizards aren't a unified whole. They'll kill each other regularly, so your failure could be the result of a lot of things. Maybe you took a Dominate spell and was told "leave." This opens up a hole in defenses for your boss to be killed by another wizard. Meanwhile, you're hoofing it for the border at best possible speed.

[Andezzar]

I wonder if the backstabbing wizards of Thay actually employ members of that class:

Zulkir’s Favor (Su): At 1st level, a Thayan knight undergoes a long and painful tattooing ritual. A magic tattoo, placed either on the back or the forehead, provides a +2 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. The tattoo also marks the knight as someone loyal to the Red Wizards. The knight automatically fails any saving throw against a mind-affecting spell cast by a Red Wizard. When the tattoo is visible, the knight gains a +2 morale bonus on Intimidate checks as an extraordinary ability.The underlined passage means any Red Wizard, not just the one the Thayan Knight is supposed to guard.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm actually not taking levels in the PrC, just using the PrC's fluff for backstory purposes.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm actually not taking levels in the PrC, just using the PrC's fluff for backstory purposes.

Well, still a warrior against a red wizard...
You are doing a warrior class, right?

[Fax Celestis]

Well, still a warrior against a red wizard...
You are doing a warrior class, right?

Yeah. It's...an interesting build. Chambers is recruiting for a PbP using generic classes with some expanded feats and a couple other UA tweaks. This is the character build thus far (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=9790). Thinking about dropping the longsword proficiency for longspear or something with reach. I'll threaten adjacent with my unarmed strike and reach with my spear.

[AmberVael]

The best I can find is a small section in the book Unapproachable East. It's on page 161, and entitled "Defense and Warcraft."

In general, it explains that each Red Wizard maintains their own private army or guard that are implied to clash as often as their leaders (or perhaps more accurately, because of their leaders), but that they do work together in actual times of crisis. Probably.

There's no actual limit on the size of a force a Red Wizard can raise, except that they get no help in actually paying for it. Mercenaries tend to feature in these defensive forces, for that reason. Therefore, if the pay stops coming- which is quite possible for these volatile crazy people- then your army stops showing up. I can't imagine that deserting or defecting soldiers would be too uncommon in this environment, and some of them might even manage to leave service without reprisal if they do it right. It's hard to argue with "you're not paying me therefore I quit."

In any case, there are also some descriptions of the typical and elite soldiers which you might find helpful. Looks like cavalry gets a lot of emphasis, as well as monstrous additions to the army.

[Fax Celestis]

The best I can find is a small section in the book Unapproachable East. It's on page 161, and entitled "Defense and Warcraft."

In general, it explains that each Red Wizard maintains their own private army or guard that are implied to clash as often as their leaders (or perhaps more accurately, because of their leaders), but that they do work together in actual times of crisis. Probably.

There's no actual limit on the size of a force a Red Wizard can raise, except that they get no help in actually paying for it. Mercenaries tend to feature in these defensive forces, for that reason. Therefore, if the pay stops coming- which is quite possible for these volatile crazy people- then your army stops showing up. I can't imagine that deserting or defecting soldiers would be too uncommon in this environment, and some of them might even manage to leave service without reprisal if they do it right. It's hard to argue with "you're not paying me therefore I quit."

In any case, there are also some descriptions of the typical and elite soldiers which you might find helpful. Looks like cavalry gets a lot of emphasis, as well as monstrous additions to the army.

Really? I was under the impression it was less mercenary than that, at least from the Thayan Knight PrC description. But cool, that helps a lot.

[Feytalist]

Really? I was under the impression it was less mercenary than that, at least from the Thayan Knight PrC description. But cool, that helps a lot.

I would imagine the actual Thayan Knights being higher ranked and more devoted than the normal rank and file soldiers. The difference between being the personal bodyguard of an important person, and just part of the house guard or whatever.

[dysprosium]

I'm away from my books right now but the PrC in Complete Warrior is the 3.5 update to the Thayan Knight PrC in Lords of Darkness which I think was a 3.0 sourcebook for Faerun.

If you have access to that book perhaps you can find more lore on them.

[AmberVael]

I would imagine the actual Thayan Knights being higher ranked and more devoted than the normal rank and file soldiers. The difference between being the personal bodyguard of an important person, and just part of the house guard or whatever.

This, probably.

Addressing the Thayan Knights specifically, as opposed to the military of the Red Wizards at large, my guess would be that this is not a particular order with specific training, however. Rather, I would think being a knight is more a sign of favor from the particular Red Wizard. In general, I imagine they would save this favor for their more elite and devoted soldiers, but you'd get massive variation in what actually constitutes a Thayan Knight. For some wizards- particularly those of lower means and power- a particularly well payed and long term mercenary might be a knight. Meanwhile, a zulkir might actually have a particular training regimen and force to turn out the black unicorn riding warriors mentioned in the book, and those would be their knights.

This is purely conjecture on my part, however.

Oh and incidentally, there really isn't anything more in Lords of Darkness.

[Palanan]

Lords of Darkness has an extensive section on the Red Wizards of Thay (pp. 55-77), with the Thayan Knight PrC on pp. 64-65. You can probably adapt some of the general material to match up with your backstory. There's also a sidebar on p. 64, "On Thayan Soil," which gives some lovely flavor for this lovely vacation destination.

Champions of Ruin, which is 3.5, has a substantial writeup for the Thayan Gladiator PrC (pp. 63-67), which might also have some useful background for you.


Originally Posted by Flickerdart
I don't know anything about them, but I do know that you should change the title to "The Knights Who Thay Ni".

Thay you will, Thay you won't....

:smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

Thanks for the help, guys. I think I can emulate a defender-ish character with my feat selection, which should mix well with my backstory.

EDIT: Right now I have Hoar (LN, revenge, retribution, poetic justice) down as my deity, but I'm wondering if there is a more appropriate god in Thayan traditional worship.

[Coldare]

The Tevinter Imperium (Dragon Age: Origins) always Struck me as Being somewhat ..Thayvian.
Google up the Background Lore and crib a Few Notes...

[AmberVael]

According to UE, one of the deities with the biggest sway among the Red Wizards is Kossuth, (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kossuth) who honestly seems like a good fit. The wiki notes that renewal and purification a big thing with him, which would kinda fit with the character, as well as hierarchy, which would also make sense for a Thayan Knight. Unapproachable East further notes that he represents power and mastery without constraints, which definitely appeals to the Red Wizards, and might work for a less scrupled warrior too.


Edit: There's a pretty good section on him in Faiths and Pantheons.

[Fax Celestis]

I like Kossuth too, but it honestly seems like the easy way out. I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking this deity thing.

I wanted to go with Kelanen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelanen), but he's a Greyhawk god.

[AmberVael]

Fair enough. Taking a peek at Kelanen, as well as how UE says that Thay appreciates the neutral aligned elemental deities... how about reversing expectations a bit and going with Istishia? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Istishia)

It would have some very interesting and perhaps appropriate implications from a number of ways, as the Red Wizards worship Kossuth, who is strongly aligned against Istishia- however, the reason for this opposition is Kossuth's doctrine of elemental supremacy, which basically says "I am the best of the elements." Meanwhile, given that Istishia's teachings involve such things as "excelling at what you are" and don't involve pushing for power and supremacy in the way that Kossuth does, I could easily see the faith being very suitable to the Thayan Knight, even in the eyes of the Red Wizards. The Red Wizards could see it as the knight being aligned with the weaker, subservient element, while the Knight would worship Istishia under the premise of acknowledging their own path and not attempting to seize power and positions not meant for them. In the end, Istishia is also a destructive god, which is suitable for a warrior. Also, Thay is a dry, stark place and Istishia is a god of water; you march and patrol around a parched and arid land for days on end, you're going to appreciate water too.

It could also later serve to emphasize the divide between the warrior and Thay. Once he left, he might think of the conflict between Istishia and Kossuth with a bit more importance and in a less subservient way.

Lastly, Istishia has a bit of the same balance and neutrality going on as Kelanen does, though less emphasis on warrior, which might have been your real interest.

[Fax Celestis]

Fair enough. Taking a peek at Kelanen, as well as how UE says that Thay appreciates the neutral aligned elemental deities... how about reversing expectations a bit and going with Istishia? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Istishia)

It would have some very interesting and perhaps appropriate implications from a number of ways, as the Red Wizards worship Kossuth, who is strongly aligned against Istishia- however, the reason for this opposition is Kossuth's doctrine of elemental supremacy, which basically says "I am the best of the elements." Meanwhile, given that Istishia's teachings involve such things as "excelling at what you are" and don't involve pushing for power and supremacy in the way that Kossuth does, I could easily see the faith being very suitable to the Thayan Knight, even in the eyes of the Red Wizards. The Red Wizards could see it as the knight being aligned with the weaker, subservient element, while the Knight would worship Istishia under the premise of acknowledging their own path and not attempting to seize power and positions not meant for them. In the end, Istishia is also a destructive god, which is suitable for a warrior. Also, Thay is a dry, stark place and Istishia is a god of water; you march and patrol around a parched and arid land for days on end, you're going to appreciate water too.

It could also later serve to emphasize the divide between the warrior and Thay. Once he left, he might think of the conflict between Istishia and Kossuth with a bit more importance and in a less subservient way.

Lastly, Istishia has a bit of the same balance and neutrality going on as Kelanen does, though less emphasis on warrior, which might have been your real interest.
At first I was like :smallconfused:

But then I was like :smallsmile:

Istishia is a pretty good fit.

[herrhauptmann]

At first I was like :smallconfused:

But then I was like :smallsmile:

Istishia is a pretty good fit.

It's good, makes me wish there was a 'best of gitp' thread or something; like what reddit has.

[AmberVael]

Glad you guys like it, I have a lot of fun thinking up little ideas like that. :smallsmile:

[Andezzar]

Thinking about dropping the longsword proficiency for longspear or something with reach. I'll threaten adjacent with my unarmed strike and reach with my spear.No, you don't. Unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike or the Monk Class Feature Unarmed Strike you are considered unarmed, do not threaten with Unarmed Strikes and your attacks provoke AoOs. Unfortunately you are not proficient with Armor Spikes.

Any reason why you took 12 levels of Expert?

[DeltaEmil]

What about spiked gauntlets?

Now you are considered armed without having to invest a feat or being a monk.

[Fax Celestis]

No, you don't. Unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike or the Monk Class Feature Unarmed Strike you are considered unarmed, do not threaten with Unarmed Strikes and your attacks provoke AoOs. Unfortunately you are not proficient with Armor Spikes.

Any reason why you took 12 levels of Expert?

Look in my Feats section. I took the Unarmed Strike feature feat, and I hit like a monk.

Also, it's generic Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert).

[Andezzar]

What about spiked gauntlets?

Now you are considered armed without having to invest a feat or being a monk.Yes, spiked gauntlets would work.


Look in my Feats section. I took the Unarmed Strike feature feat, and I hit like a monk.

Also, it's generic Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert).Nevermind then.