Cleric buffs

[elonin]

Would clerics still be considered tier one without DMM Persist? I've looked at some of the buffs and see how they are great if persisted, but wonder how well they are regarded at the round per level mark.

My wife is playing a cleric in pathfinder and I've been tasked with choosing spells to take for her general picks. She has sun and healing domains.

[ArcturusV]

I've never PFed, or DMM: Persisted. So I can say somewhat reliably in 3rd at least... That yeah, the Cleric Buffs are still pretty impressive and worthwhile. But it's about how you use them. The typical Cleric Beatstick Beast thing I tend to see on this forum is generally not how I'd use my buffs. Particularly if I was stuck with Rounds/Level or Minutes/Level for the effect. The key phrase I look for it "Make your Best, Better". As a Cleric your stats tend to be all over the place. You want a decent Wisdom, Con, Cha, Int. You're not much of a combat beast pre-buffs to start with. And while you can buff yourself up to become one... it's usually more effective to take that Fighter who has the 20 str to start with, decent dex and con, and start throwing all the bonuses to hit and damage on him instead. Least so I always felt.

Not knowing PF, I can't tell you more. But it depends on the party composition more than anything. And you want to tailor your load out so that you can, at key moments, make the best guy at ____ in your party even more effective. That's where I'd start.

[GilesTheCleric]

Clerics are unarguably t1, with or without DMM:P. The tier system considers flexibility and problem solving; clerics (and druids) are even more flexible than wizards. They know all of the spells on their list.

I started my first PF cleric last session, but I haven't compiled a list of all spells available or looked through for any of the best ones. I'm sorry I cannot help you with that. If 3.5 spells are on the table, then it's easy to recommend things.

[lsfreak]

They are still T1 for sure, there's simply so many things they can do and do well. If you don't have DMM:Persist or DMM:Quicken, you simply don't focus all your resources into buffing. No matter what the build itself is, clerics can do things like summoning, animating, and otherwise gain extra abilities or temporary allies; they can scry, cast augury, or other abilities to see what the best course of action is; they have many of the best buffs (even at just 1/encounter from no DMM); they can dispel buffs from enemies or debuffs from allies; and they have tons of other little toys that come in handy (surge of fortune, fire storm, invisibility purge, knight's move, curse of fill fortune, imbue with spell ability, etc). All irrespective of build, because a cleric knows their entire spell list, so they can wildly change their repertoire from day to day depending on their circumstances.

Though I also don't know Pathfinder very well.

[Urpriest]

Clerics are Tier 1 because of the spell list, not DMM, and the PF spell list still has a lot of nice spells. At higher levels I've had a lot of success with Persisted Greater Command, but I'm assuming you're mid-to-low level.

In general, I'd avoid rounds/level buffs. There might be a couple worth casting (there's a PF one that duplicates Haste, a level higher but with a few more choices), but in general you will want to stick with minutes/level and higher, and use your combat spells for self-buffing and attacking in melee or battlefield control and saving your party members from negative effects. Clerics actually get a lot of 10 min/level and hour/level buffs, including a lot of nice Communal ones in PF, so stock up on those if you want to buff.

[elonin]

Our party is roughly 10th level consisting of the cleric, a wizard transmuter or conjurer (can't remember which), a favored soul (pf eq), a fighter, and my pc who is a ranger with a level of wizard ->arcane archer and about to take a level of mystic theurge. We are low enough op that the fighter shines most of the time with the wizard pulling out odd spells now and again. My wife knows less about playing clerics than I do and I'm trying to help with spell selection to make her time more enjoyable.

Clerics are versitle if they know a day in advance what they'll need to prep, which in my opinion leaves them ranked under wizards (who can leave slots unprepared to be filled later in the day). Am I just looking at clerics in the wrong way?

[Urpriest]

Clerics are versitle if they know a day in advance what they'll need to prep, which in my opinion leaves them ranked under wizards (who can leave slots unprepared to be filled later in the day). Am I just looking at clerics in the wrong way?

Clerics can do this too, actually. You just need 15min as long as it's under a quarter of your spell slots.

At this level, you can use Divination. Depending on how the DM is going to treat it, I'd try using it once the day before each dungeon to get info.

Have you looked at a Pathfinder Cleric Handbook? There are a couple decent ones out there that identify most of the better spells.

[GilesTheCleric]

With the right selection of spells, you can generally not have to worry about knowing precisely what you are going to run in to that you would need to prepare for. Of course, using divinations to figure that out helps, but it's not difficult to make a go-to list for when you have no idea what you might need.

I'll take a look at some of the PF stuff and see what I can come up with. Is she 10? In the meantime, you might try looking through my list of good 3.5 cleric spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509) to see if anything jumps out at you.

[elonin]

UrPriest I'm pretty sure that Clerics have to select the time of day to regain spells. Is there a bit of RAW I'm unaware of or is this a bit of laxness at the DM spot. The DM is flexible to a point, though I've found out that he does not allow the "following a cause" type cleric. He said it makes it too easy to pick good domain combos.

I haven't checked the pathfinder stuff yet, I'll check them tomorrow.

[GilesTheCleric]

Here's a list I came up with from spells on the SRD. I've included a mix of combat and rp/out-of-combat.

Some players (like myself) find clerics somewhat boring in combat. To spice it up, utilizing battlefield control (wall of stone, wind wall, chain of perdition, etc) makes it a bit more fun, as can running in full-kilter with the melee buffs. However, I find the most enjoyment in subverting combat altogether by using utility spells (divination school, silence, blessing of the mole, enter image, etc).

Clerics cannot do any blasting with slots below 5th, and should probably wait until they have 8th lvl spells to blast with. There might be interesting flashy/blasting spells below 5th in PF, but I didn't see any in the SRD. There are a few in 3.5, but not many.


0-5
0: create water
detect magic
guidance
light
read magic
resistance

1: command
comprehend languages
divine favour
know the enemy
obscuring mist
protection from evil
shield of faith
summon monster

2: ancestral communication
augury
bear's endurance
darkness
find traps
owl's wisdom
restoration, lesser
shield other
silence
sound burst
summon monster

3: bestow curse
blessing of the mole
chain of perdition
dispel magic
enter image
invisibility purge
locate object
magic circle against evil
meld into stone
sacred bond
speak with dead
summon monster
wind wall
wrathful mantle

4: blessing of fervour
dimensional anchor
divination
divine power
freedom of movement
poison
spell immunity
summon monster
tongues
ward shield

5: breath of life
cleanse
commune
forbid action, greater
ghoul army
plane shift x2
righteous might
scrying
spell immunity, communal
spell resistance
summon monster
true seeing
wall of stone
6-9
6: animate objects
bear's endurance, mass
blade barrier
dispel magic, greater
dust form
find the path
heal
heroes' feast
summon monster
word of recall

7: refuge
restoration, greater
scrying, greater
summon monster
waves of ecstasy

8: discern location
earthquake
fire storm
orb of the void
spell immunity, greater
stormbolts
summon monster

9: gate
miracle
spell immunity, greater communal

[Beleron]

The DM is flexible to a point, though I've found out that he does not allow the "following a cause" type cleric. He said it makes it too easy to pick good domain combos.
.

Yes, I've always wondered what "cause" those planning+undeath clerics are following.

[GilesTheCleric]

Yes, I've always wondered what "cause" those planning+undeath clerics are following.

The cause of Sylvia Plath, of course!

planning+undeath = plath

[TuggyNE]

UrPriest I'm pretty sure that Clerics have to select the time of day to regain spells. Is there a bit of RAW I'm unaware of or is this a bit of laxness at the DM spot.

They must pray at a specific time to empty their spell slots and regain energy, yes. But, like wizards, they do not have to select what spells to put in those slots at that time.
Time of Day
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Spell Selection and Preparation
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

[elonin]

so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

this part appears to be the relevant part of the text. So while a cleric can meditate later if they miss their time, they don't appear to be able to take spells later in the day.

[Urpriest]

this part appears to be the relevant part of the text. So while a cleric can meditate later if they miss their time, they don't appear to be able to take spells later in the day.

No, that part says that they can't refresh their slots later in the day. Once a spell is cast, it's cast, but you can leave slots open and fill them later.

[TuggyNE]

this part appears to be the relevant part of the text. So while a cleric can meditate later if they miss their time, they don't appear to be able to take spells later in the day.

How exactly did you miss the underlined portion? :smallconfused: As Urpriest said, the net result is that, exactly like a Wizard, they get one set of spell slots every time they rest/pray (generally, once a day) and can fill that set immediately or later, in whole or in part, but can't reuse any slot once filled.

[elonin]

How exactly did you miss the underlined portion? :smallconfused: As Urpriest said, the net result is that, exactly like a Wizard, they get one set of spell slots every time they rest/pray (generally, once a day) and can fill that set immediately or later, in whole or in part, but can't reuse any slot once filled.

I didn't miss the underlined part. Rather i noticed another part that contradicts it.

[bekeleven]

I didn't miss the underlined part. Rather i noticed another part that contradicts it.

It says that they can prepare at any time, but only during the first meditation is their mind clear enough to clean slate their spell slots. In subsequent preparations, they "cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell". What's the issue?

[TuggyNE]

I didn't miss the underlined part. Rather i noticed another part that contradicts it.

When the text appears to blatantly contradict itself within the same paragraph, strongly consider whether you are misunderstanding it or applying inaccurate assumptions; in this case, there is a workable reading that involves no contradiction and includes all of the relevant text, and is consistent with other rules as well.

What, then, would make this reading impossible, as outlined?


1
Outline of how this reading would play out in practice, using a level 1 Cleric with 16 Wis for simplicity:
Morning, before prayer — all expended slots unusable, unexpended slots retain existing spells (guidance, resistance x2, bless, magic stone, cure light woundsD)
Morning, immediately after prayer — all expended slots are freshly energized, any or all fresh slots can have spells prepared (detect magic, guidance x2, ???, magic stone, cure light woundsD)
Later in the day — any or all unfilled, unexpended slots can be filled (detect magic, guidance x2, doom, magic stone, cure light woundsD)

Strikethrough for expended slots, underline for fresh preparation.

[Chronos]

Quoth ArcturusV:

And while you can buff yourself up to become one... it's usually more effective to take that Fighter who has the 20 str to start with, decent dex and con, and start throwing all the bonuses to hit and damage on him instead. Least so I always felt.
The problem is that a lot of the cleric's best combat buffs are personal only, so you can't throw them on the fighter instead.

But as others have already said, combat buffs aren't your only choice as a cleric. You can, if you choose, accomplish most of the same things a wizard can (though a lot of them you'll accomplish in a different way).