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Piggy Knowles
2013-09-03, 06:14 PM
EDIT: Note that this build actually runs up against multiclassing penalties. If you are playing with those, drop the cloistered cleric levels for death delver. You'll gain all you need to make the build run, and some handy defensive boosts, but it's a less useful option overall than cleric.

I love bards and support characters (in fact, I'm playing one now), but there's one thing that has always bothered me. They have so many awesome options for bardic music, but with music requiring a standard action, you're giving up casting a spell or making an attack to use it. Song of the White Raven is a big help, but then you can't use things like Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor, both of which are major boosts for an inspire courage machine.

So, I decided to put together a bardic support character that can benefit from all of this at once. I'd love some thoughts and feedback.

(I'll be cribbing heavily from Tempest Stormwind's Weekly Optimization Showcase format for presenting this build - it's nice as a way to show how it breaks down level by level.)

So, here's the end results thus far of my fiddling. I give you...


RUBY RHOD
We green?
http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/5125/337355-ruby_rhod_super.jpg

THE BASICS

Race: Silverbrow Human. Unless flaws are on the table, this really isn't negotiable - you need the dragonblood subtype, and you need every feat you can get your hands on.
Ability Scores: Str 16/Dex 10/Con 12/Int 14/Wis 12/Cha 14. Boost Int and Cha to 15, then focus on Strength. For items, boost Strength, Charisma and Constitution, and pick up a cheap Periapt of Wisdom +2 to ensure that you can actually cast third level spells.
Alternate Class Features: Healing Hymn, Bardic Knack, Cloistered Cleric variant, Divine Bard variant.
Flaws: If flaws are on the table, you've got a few options. Melodic Casting is always nice, giving you the ability to cast while singing, although in general your songs last long enough that it won't hurt to simply end the song. Divine Might is an easy damage boost, although between Law Devotion and Divine Impetus, you already have a lot of uses for your turn attempts. If you're starting at a higher level and don't mind reshuffling levels and maneuvers, picking up Extra Granted Maneuver early would be a HUGE boon. Finally, an interesting direction would be to drop Power Attack entirely and focus on a shield. There are some very nice shield-based maneuvers available to a crusader (in particular Shield Counter at level 7), and a shield means an extra available wand chamber (especially nice since Ruby Rhod can use spell trigger items off the bard, cleric and wizard lists). You'll get enough damage boosts from your counters and songs to keep you from missing Power Attack.


Skill Notes: Perform, of course. RKV requires a splash of hide/intimidate and some knowledge (religion), and you should spend at least a point in every monster-identifying knowledge skill for Knowledge Devotion. Five ranks in balance wouldn't go amiss, either. You've also got a decent Charisma and Diplomacy as a class skill for much of your career, so that's not a bad direction either. You'll also want to consider building toward the various charging Skill Tricks, since charging is how you will expect to open most combats.

Basic Equipment: You're a crusader who sings - get yourself a decent slashing weapon with a wand chamber, a nice set of armor, and some masterwork tools to boost any relevant skills. If you're going the shielded route, you'll want that as well.

Magical Gear Goals: Definitely go after the Badge of Valor and Vest of Legends, for your inspire courage boosting. Wands are also nice to have - a wand of Whirling Blade in your wand chamber, for instance, makes for a nice ranged option. On your blade, Valorous is always nice, as are any static boosts. Spell Storing is also not a bad choice for you. Beyond that, equip yourself as any decent crusader.

THE BUILD
Build Stub: Divine Bard 4/Crusader 8/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7


1. Divine Bard1- Dragonfire Inspiration, Power Attack
2. Divine Bard2-
3. Divine Bard3- Song of the Heart
4. Divine Bard4-
5. Crusader1-
6. Crusader2- Song of the White Raven
7. Cloistered Cleric1- Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
8. Ruby Knight Vindicator1-
9. Ruby Knight Vindicator2- Words of Creation
10. Ruby Knight Vindicator3-
11. Ruby Knight Vindicator4-
12. Ruby Knight Vindicator5- Extra Music
13. Ruby Knight Vindicator6-
14. Ruby Knight Vindicator7-
15. Crusader3- Extra Turning
16. Crusader4-
17. Crusader5-
18. Crusader6- Extra Granted Maneuver
19. Crusader7-
20. Crusader8-

Maneuvers: Crusader's Strike, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Leading the Attack, Battle Leader's Charge, White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, Flanking Maneuver, Clarion Call, Swarming Assault, Earthstrike Quake, Greater Divine Surge, War Master's Charge

Stances: Leading the Charge, Martial Spirit, Island of Blades, Press the Advantage, Stance of Immortal Fortitude


LEVEL BY LEVEL:


1. Divine Bard 1- Power Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration

Bardic music, bardic knack, healing hymn, fascinate, inspire courage +1
Detect Magic, Message, Songbird, Mage Hand


You open as a fairly typical bard. First level is always tough for bards, with only one use of Inspire Courage per day (which you will almost always trade for DFI - +1d6 damage per attack is just too good at this level), but you've got a decent Strength for swinging a weapon around, so you'll do fine. Spells are focused on utility out of combat: detect magic to aid in scouting, message for easy communication, etc.

2. Divine Bard 2-

Prestidigitation, inspirational boost, grease

The addition of first level spells and an extra bardic music use more than doubles your offensive output - now you're providing allies with +2d6 bonus damage on every attack one combat, and +1d6 another. Also, you can actually use Power Attack now, so that's something.

3. Divine Bard 3- Song of the Heart

Inspire competence
Light, swift invisibility

Again, this is a pretty solid upgrade for you - more spells per day means more uses of inspirational boost, and you're now putting out +3d6 damage on attacks three encounters a day. Alternatively, +3 attack/damage combines well with Power Attack, depending on the makeup of your party. Swift invisibility is just adding in a bit of utility, and can be replaced with improvisation or similar spells.

4. Divine Bard 4-

Alter self, glitterdust


Nothing too crazy here except that you've now got enough uses of bardic music to use it in every encounter on a typical day. Alter self and glitterdust are hard to beat as far as second level spells go - either one can completely change the parameters of an encounter.

5. Crusader 1-

Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5
Leading the Charge (s), Crusader’s Strike, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Leading the Attack, Battle Leader’s Charge


With this one level of crusader, you become a far more credible leader and more of an offensive threat on your own. Leading the Charge is +3 damage on any charge right now and can easily open up most encounters - it will continue to be your key "opening move" stance, with consistently good damage for you and your allies on that first round, when charging is ideal. You also pick up some nice charging maneuvers of your own, Battle Leader's Charge and Charging Minotaur, plus the usual suspects of Crusader's Strike and Mountain Hammer.

6. Crusader 2- Song of the White Raven

Indomitable soul
Martial Spirit (s)


Song of the White Raven means that you can now start your inspire courage as a swift action. This unfortunately restricts you from using inspirational boost, but it does mean you can activate inspire courage and charge in all on the same round, getting the most bang for your buck with Leading the Charge. Martial Spirit adds some more healing utility to you - bards are supposed to be good at that, remember? Indomitable soul is a rather handy boost to your Will save.

7. Cloistered Cleric 1- Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion

Turn undead, domains (Law, Magic, Knowledge)

Cloistered cleric is such a good dip it has its own handbook. It works particularly well for you - turn undead will become a big part of your build soon, Knowledge Devotion and Law Devotion are both handy boosts across the board, and the Magic domain gives you access to spell trigger items off the wizard spell list. I did mention wands were important, didn't I?

8. Ruby Knight Vindicator 1-

Island of Blades (s)

And so we open up into Ruby Knight Vindicator. At this level it just means a new stance, giving you the option of Shadow Hand in addition to your usual crusader goodies. Shadow Hand means you can pick up Island of Blades, a nice little boost that will help you provide flanking bonuses to anyone adjacent to the same enemy. You're all about enabling other characters, so being able to hand out a free +2 attack (and sneak attack damage, when applicable) is rather nice. It becomes even better in a few levels, when you get access to Flanking Maneuver.

9. Ruby Knight Vindicator 2- Words of Creation

Divine recovery
Improvisation, whirling blade
White Raven Tactics


This level is a doozy. First of all, the feat - Words of Creation is an obvious choice for a bardic build that can meet its pre-reqs. It's even better for you, since you have easy ways of healing off nonlethal damage. By this point you should definitely have a Badge of Valor, and a Vest of Legends isn't necessarily out of reach either, especially if the party chips in. Now instead of handing out +4d6 damage or so, you're talking about +8d6, or +8 attack/damage. (It's worth noting that at these levels, standard Inspire Courage starts to outstrip the Dragonfire version. Higher attack bonuses mean more opportunities to Power Attack and greater likelihood of iteratives hitting, and the static damage boost gets multiplied by things like Headlong Rush, Valorous, etc.)

Second of all, White Raven Tactics. You're all about supporting your allies, and there is little better than WRT for this.

Third, you've got divine recovery now, which eliminates much of the chance associated with being a crusader. Enjoy using WRT every other round reliably. Your party will enjoy it, too.

Finally, whirling blade helps fill an area that this build has had difficulty with until now: attacking at range.

10. Ruby Knight Vindicator 3-

11. Ruby Knight Vindicator 4-

Silence, haste, alter fortune
Covering Strike


More spellcasting means haste, which once again provides a significant damage boost across the board. Covering Strike is a solid debuff and helps your allies move freely, especially if you can manage to hit multiple opponents. It's a good choice alongside whirling blade. Alter fortune is primarily a get out of jail card - you won't want to cast it, but when you need to, you'll be glad it's there.

12. Ruby Knight Vindicator 5- Extra Music

Armored stealth
Glibness

Extra Music means you can start using both DFI and standard inspire courage without worrying about it too much. Glibness is just raw utility - we've all seen just what it can do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) in the right hands.

13. Ruby Knight Vindicator 6-

Flanking Maneuver, Press the Advantage (s)

Remember how I said that Island of Blades would be surprisingly handy in the long term, beyond the simple +2 to attack? Here's why. Enjoy giving free attacks to everyone adjacent to the same enemy you are.

14. Ruby Knight Vindicator 7-

Divine impetus

In many ways, this is the crux of the build. Divine impetus means that you no longer have to worry about Song of the White Raven and inspirational boost conflicting. It means that, in a single round, you can activate inspire courage, inspirational boost, dragonfire inspiration, inspirational boost, White Raven Tactics, divine recovery, and still have an action left to charge in and attack. That's obviously an extreme example - barring nightstick cheese, that kind of nova will burn through all of your turn attempts in a single round. Still, you now have that option, and more. Absolutely huge.

15. Crusader 3- Extra Turning

Zealous surge
Order Forged from Chaos


And now we go back to crusader. High level maneuvers will overall be more useful to you than going after more bard spells, especially since you have effects like Leading the Charge keyed off of your IL. Order Forged from Chaos is such an iconic leader-style maneuver that I couldn't help but take it, although there are a lot of good options at this level. Extra Turning helps mitigate the problem that you all of a sudden have way too many ways to spend turn attempts. If nightstick stacking is allowed, drop this and nab Extra Granted Maneuver here instead.

16. Crusader 4-

Steely resolve 10, inspire courage +2
Leading the Attack -> Clarion Call

Again, you're an enabler, even if you can kick some pretty serious heiney on your own. Clarion Call is the perfect addition here. Charge in and take out an enemy, then Clarion Call to grant an additional attack to all your allies. With the damage bonuses you're handing out (you're now looking at as much as +10 attack, +10d6+10 damage, and an additional +13 damage on charges), extra attacks are deadly.

17. Crusader 5-

Swarming Assault


18. Crusader 6- Extra Granted Maneuver

Smite 1/day
Battle Leader's Charge -> Earthstrike Quake

FINALLY, Extra Granted Maneuver. You'll wish it came by about 13 levels earlier. I've considered reshuffling this whole build to get it earlier, and with flaws, this is one of the first things you nab when you've got your necessary feats. You also trade out one of your low-level maneuvers for Earthstrike Quake, adding in some solid area damage to your attack repertoire.

19. Crusader 7-

Greater Divine Surge

When you need a kill option, GDS is hard to beat. You've got a lot of boosts and moves to assist allies; now you need to round out your options. Greater Divine Surge is a high-damage option for particularly nasty enemies.

20. Crusader 8-

Steely resolve 15
Stance of Immortal Fortitude, Covering Strike -> War Master's Charge

And, for a capstone, we pick up Stance of Immortal Fortitude and the incomparable War Master's Charge. The latter will end encounters in its own right; the former will keep you up and singing long after the day is done.

SNAPSHOT: With all relevant inspire-boosting gear, a typical opening for this will be...

Inspire courage (swift action via Song of the White Raven)
Inspirational boost (swift action)
Activate badge of valor
Dragonfire inspiration
Inspirational boost again
Charge and attack


That means we're looking at +10 attack, +8d6+10 damage. On charges we've got an additional +17 damage from Leading the Charge, not to mention any additional boosts from maneuvers, haste, and the like. Feed your attack bonus into Power Attack and with a valorous weapon, your charges are dealing an average of +154 damage before taking into account Strength, magic weapon bonuses, bonus damage from maneuvers, etc. Add in the fact that you'll be providing similar damage boosts to your allies across the board, while still retaining powerful options like White Raven Tactics, Clarion Call and War Master's Charge, and you've got one heck of a leader going on.

So... any thoughts? Any ways I can tighten up the build? Any suggestions for maneuvers? I very rarely build crusaders (warblades are really more my thing), so I'd definitely love some suggestions as far as maneuvers, etc., are concerned. Thanks, all!

Firechanter
2013-09-04, 09:07 AM
The idea is nice, but you reach too high:


SNAPSHOT: With all relevant inspire-boosting gear, a typical opening for this will be...
Inspire courage (swift action via Song of the White Raven)
Inspirational boost (swift action)
Activate badge of valor
Dragonfire inspiration
Inspirational boost again
Charge and attack

Sorry, firing off all of that in one turn won't nearly work.

You probably think that you can trigger Divine Impetus as often as you want and have TU attempts. Fact is, you can't. DivImp doesn't state what Action type is required, and thus, as per RAW, it defaults to Standard Action.

Of course this is dysfunctional, but it does effectivaly bar any rules-lawyering shenanigans with DivImp.

If you want to argue RAI, then I'm pretty sure that the _intention_ was to allow you to get _one_ additional Swift Action per turn. So the reasonable fix would be to add "...once per turn [or round] as a Free Action..."

[Note that "turn" and "round" make a real difference here. If it's per Turn, you can keep recovering and spamming White Raven Tactics on yourself and act [TU/2] times in a single round. If it's per round, not.]

Cog
2013-09-04, 09:28 AM
If you want to argue RAI, then I'm pretty sure that the _intention_ was to allow you to get _one_ additional Swift Action per turn. So the reasonable fix would be to add "...once per turn [or round] as a Free Action..."
It's easy to argue that RAI is to not cost a standard action, as the ability becomes nearly useless as written. It's quite a leap to suggest that the writers intended to put a round limit in there as well when there's no textual indication of it whatsoever.

Firechanter
2013-09-04, 09:55 AM
I'd say it's quite a leap to assume that _no_ round limit was intended. I find it rather a stretch to believe that the designers wanted to give anyone infinite actions in a round.

Chronos
2013-09-04, 12:05 PM
I'd say it's quite a leap to assume that _no_ round limit was intended. I find it rather a stretch to believe that the designers wanted to give anyone infinite actions in a round.
Who's arguing that? You can't get infinite actions in a round unless you have an infinite number of Turn Undead uses. And if you do somehow have infinite Turn Undead uses, then however you got them is the abuse, not how you're using them.

Firechanter
2013-09-04, 01:44 PM
Yeah, nitpick all you want. There are builds out there with 100+ TU uses, I've even seen one with >1000 (though I didn't understand how that would work). Can we please agree that the designers can't have intended one PrC to get a dozen actions or more in a single round?

Vaz
2013-09-04, 02:31 PM
By RAW it doesn't work - that is clear and uncounterable. Anything else you are houseruling.

Assume the houaserule is in place; re Tiny Von McBiglargehuge.

Piggy Knowles
2013-09-04, 02:46 PM
Yeah, I know that the RKV's divine impetus doesn't actually work by RAW, but that's more than a little silly. Divine impetus actually isn't that crazy without serious turning cheese (stacking nightsticks and crazy numbers of turning pools, etc.). I'd like to think this is a fairly sane usage of the ability, using it almost solely for bardic music or divine recovery rather than going nova with spells.

So, other than the fact that divine impetus is an exceedingly poorly written ability, any thoughts or suggestions on the build itself?

Fuzzy McCoy
2013-09-04, 11:46 PM
First your archer compendium, and now this! Piggy, you're on a roll, I really like this build.

For Inspirational boost, the duration is one round, it doesn't need to be activated multiple times. Something to mention, is after 14th level, the build incurs multiclassing penalties. It might not matter to most games, but it should be noted.

For the build itself, why go with the second level of crusader where it is? the bonus to will saves is nice, but with cleric, RKV, and bard all boosting will, it seems like that is just delaying access to divine impetus for not enough gain.

As for words of creation, I'm not a big fan of that feat in general, and in particular here. With an effective bard level of 12, if WoC is only doubling the base IC, that's only another +2 bump (and an extra 2d6 damage). Powerful, certainly, but the feat has some very steep prereqs. I for one, wouldn't mind having less intelligence and more constitution on this build. Not sure what feat I would replace it with, though.

Might I propose a variation on the build?

Divine Bard 4/Crusader 1/Cleric 1/RKV 7/Warblade 7

Drop Extra Granted Manuever, pick up Melodic Casting instead.

This gives you access to Iron heart, keeps access to white raven, and gets you a more reliable set of manuevers available.

Firechanter
2013-09-05, 02:58 AM
Aforementioned rule / build validity concerns aside:
If you go with Fuzzy's suggestion to add in Warblade, I'd consider entering Warblade before RKV. RKV never increases your Granted Maneuvers, so adding those maneuvers to the Warblade progression (and recovery method) gets around that problem.

Then I'm also bothered by the multiclass XP penalty. To avoid that, you'd either need to stick to 2 levels of Bard (which largely nixes spellcasting, and you might need another Extra Music), or increase Bard and your Adept class of choice equally (which might not even be the dumbest idea, as it gives you extra spells).

Btw, do you plan to use Light Armour, i.e. Mithral Breastplate? Otherwise you may want to pick up Battle Caster and wear Mithral Fullplate. (Divine Spellcasting. Silly me.)

Lastly, I don't get the hype about Dragonfire Inspiration. Sure, it's cool if you have multiple Bards each adding a different energy type, but if you're the only one, you're expending your race choice and a feat for a 0,5pt damage increase over regular IC with two-handed Power Attack. Personally, I'd rather be a regular Human, kick the DI, and advance one extra Knowledge skill to benefit from with Knowledge Devotion.

--

edit:
Regarding my previous concerns about the validity: not a problem actually. Since you don't need a second Inspirational Boost, you get by with the one extra Swift Action that DivImp reasonably grants. DFI doesn't need an action to activate either, as far as I can tell.

So you're essentially down to:
* Inspirational Boost (Swift)
* Bardic Music (Swift per SoWR)
* Badge of Valor (Immediate, i.e. next round's Swift)
* Charge

All good.

Piggy Knowles
2013-09-05, 07:46 AM
First your archer compendium, and now this! Piggy, you're on a roll, I really like this build.

For Inspirational boost, the duration is one round, it doesn't need to be activated multiple times. Something to mention, is after 14th level, the build incurs multiclassing penalties. It might not matter to most games, but it should be noted.

Crud, you're right. I don't play with multiclassing XP myself, but I always try to keep it in mind (especially since building for the Iron Chef competitions kind of forces it on me), so I feel a bit silly for missing that one.

Really, it's that stupid cleric dip that's doing it. I could theoretically get by with a level in Death Delver instead, which would fix the problem, but that's substantially weaker - I'll lose out on two (admittedly non-essential) feats, and more importantly lose access to the cleric and wizard spell lists for items. As of right now I can't really see another feasible way around it, though.


For the build itself, why go with the second level of crusader where it is? the bonus to will saves is nice, but with cleric, RKV, and bard all boosting will, it seems like that is just delaying access to divine impetus for not enough gain.

I originally went bard 4/crusader 1/cloistered cleric 1/RKV 7/crusader +7, but moved the second crusader level earlier to gain access to both Leading the Charge and Martial Spirit. I needed a Devoted Spirit stance to qualify for RKV, but I didn't want to be stuck with Martial Spirit as my only stance, especially when Leading the Charge meant such a clear damage boost across the board. Moving it this way also meant I could use the first stance granted by RKV to pick up Island of Blades, to combine with Flanking Maneuver down the road.


As for words of creation, I'm not a big fan of that feat in general, and in particular here. With an effective bard level of 12, if WoC is only doubling the base IC, that's only another +2 bump (and an extra 2d6 damage). Powerful, certainly, but the feat has some very steep prereqs. I for one, wouldn't mind having less intelligence and more constitution on this build. Not sure what feat I would replace it with, though.

Actually, it would be a +3 boost even if you are only doubling the base amount. Vest of Legends doesn't give you flat bonuses; it adds on effective bard levels for determining your IC bonus. So it should be factored in to WoC's doubling even if you take the more conservative approach. I agree the ability requirements are tough, but that's a pretty sizable boost.

Might I propose a variation on the build?


Divine Bard 4/Crusader 1/Cleric 1/RKV 7/Warblade 7

Drop Extra Granted Manuever, pick up Melodic Casting instead.

This gives you access to Iron heart, keeps access to white raven, and gets you a more reliable set of manuevers available.

Hmm... Looks like that would just about scrape by to allow me to pick up War Master's Charge. That's not a bad idea. (I guess my first inclination was correct after all - warblades really ARE almost always a better option :smalltongue:)


Aforementioned rule / build validity concerns aside:
If you go with Fuzzy's suggestion to add in Warblade, I'd consider entering Warblade before RKV. RKV never increases your Granted Maneuvers, so adding those maneuvers to the Warblade progression (and recovery method) gets around that problem.

Yeah, I'd almost certainly build it that way, because otherwise I wouldn't get access to high-level manevuers. Divine recovery goes a long way around making the crusader recovery mechanic palatable, but it's still not as good as the warblade's.


Then I'm also bothered by the multiclass XP penalty. To avoid that, you'd either need to stick to 2 levels of Bard (which largely nixes spellcasting, and you might need another Extra Music), or increase Bard and your Adept class of choice equally (which might not even be the dumbest idea, as it gives you extra spells).

Two levels of bard would mean a painfully low number of bardic music uses, and also no Song of the Heart (which requires Inspire Competence). Something like Bard 6/Crusader 6/Cloistered Cleric 1/RKV 7 would be a little bit easier to take, although it would take some maneuvering to get the levels to work right, and probably delay RKV until fairly late.


Lastly, I don't get the hype about Dragonfire Inspiration. Sure, it's cool if you have multiple Bards each adding a different energy type, but if you're the only one, you're expending your race choice and a feat for a 0,5pt damage increase over regular IC with two-handed Power Attack. Personally, I'd rather be a regular Human, kick the DI, and advance one extra Knowledge skill to benefit from with Knowledge Devotion.

Actually, I ordinarily agree with you. I think that DFI is better in the early game, when not everyone will have Power Attack (or the requisite BAB to feed into it), and adding on +2d6 or +3d6 damage per attack is enough to punch through almost any low-level encounter. Once iterative attacks and multipliers come into the picture, though, I think that regular Inspire Courage wins by a mile. That said, the point of trying to shuffle on RKV and the like is so that you can have both - multiple swifts mean you could get away with activating Inspirational Boost, regular Inspire Courage and DFI, and still have the chance to attack or initiate a maneuver. That will add up nicely in all, and it's really the only advantage this build has over a standard bardblade or bardsader.

(Really, the whole reason I started tinkering with this is because I'm playing a bardblade now and, while I like what I've got a lot, the actions required really do bug me.)


edit:
Regarding my previous concerns about the validity: not a problem actually. Since you don't need a second Inspirational Boost, you get by with the one extra Swift Action that DivImp reasonably grants. DFI doesn't need an action to activate either, as far as I can tell.

DFI says it can be selected "when you use your bardic music to inspire courage," so if I plan to have two songs active (regular IC and DFI), I'll still need multiple actions to activate both. Even with Inspirational Boost lasting a round (very nice catch, btw), I'll need at least three - one to cast it, and one for each bard song.

Thanks for the feedback! I'll give some thought as to how I can get rid of multiclassing XP, and the warblade version might be a pretty solid upgrade over the straight crusader version.

TuggyNE
2013-09-05, 06:36 PM
Crud, you're right. I don't play with multiclassing XP myself, but I always try to keep it in mind (especially since building for the Iron Chef competitions kind of forces it on me), so I feel a bit silly for missing that one.

Really, it's that stupid cleric dip that's doing it. I could theoretically get by with a level in Death Delver instead, which would fix the problem, but that's substantially weaker - I'll lose out on two (admittedly non-essential) feats, and more importantly lose access to the cleric and wizard spell lists for items. As of right now I can't really see another feasible way around it, though.

I'd suggest just listing the alternatives for cases where multiclassing XP penalties are enforced; despite being the technical default, it's such an immensely common houserule that you can probably ignore it for the primary build idea.