[PF Necromancy] Is command undead necessary?

[Azif13]

So yesterday I was doing some numbers and this is what I get:

Let's assume we have a pretty level 7 Human Cleric and we choose these feats

lvl 1
Command Undead
Spell Focus [Necromancy]

lvl 3
Undead Master

lvl 5
Spell Specialization [Animate Dead]

lvl 7
Leadership (The cohort being a lvl 6-7 Necromancer Wizard)

With this I can animate up to 26 HD worth of undead with animate dead, twice that amount with the desecrate spell and I can have up to 36 HD controlled, on the other hand, I just can control 11 HD of undead with the Command Undead feat, which is not bad, but it is not that much in comparison.

Well, maybe in this case that's worth it, but let's assume I'm not a level 7 Cleric, now I'm Cleric 5 / Agent of the Grave 2. In this case, first of all I have a doubt, I don't know if that "+1 level to existing caster class" gives me 1 more level when I calculate the number of HD I can animate with animate dead, so we have 2 cases:

It counts
I can animate 24 HD with one cast of animate dead, twice that amount under the desecrate spell. I can control up to 44 HD of undead. Command undead let's me control 9 HD of undead. What's more, when I reach level 10 I will still able to only control these ) HD.

It does not count
Just changes that I can "only" animate 22 HD of undead with one cast, twice that amount with desecrate.

At Cleric 5 /AotG 5 all my casts of animate dead count as under the desecrate spell and I can animate 60 (or 44 if the "+1 level to existing caster class" does not count) HD with one cast and control up to 68 HD (that's 2 ancient blue zombie dragons and one adult blue zombie dragon and I still got 4 HD more). But I just can control 9 HD with command undead.

Is it worth to take command undead?

Thanks.

PD: Sorry for my English, very long post...

[Psyren]

Well, maybe in this case that's worth it, but let's assume I'm not a level 7 Cleric, now I'm Cleric 5 / Agent of the Grave 2. In this case, first of all I have a doubt, I don't know if that "+1 level to existing caster class" gives me 1 more level when I calculate the number of HD I can animate with animate dead, so we have 2 cases:

Well, first you need to chat with your DM and find out whether Agent of the Grave has a dead level or not. The table shows one, but the text contradicts it, and the example they provide (52 HD) is actually following the text rather than the table. In 3.5 this would be easier, because text trumps table, but that rule doesn't exist in PF. Note also that the wording they use is different from other PrCs with a dead level, e.g. Eldritch Knight.

Here's how they calculated the 52 HD in the example: Cleric 7 + Agent 3 + Agent 3 (it's added twice) = 13, * 4 for your control limit = 52 . But as you can see, this doesn't take the dead level into account - if the table is correct it should be Cleric 7 + Agent 3 (-1) + Agent 3 for a total of 12 and 48 HD controlled.

So for your own example, you either control 24 HD or 28 HD worth of undead at Cleric 5/Agent 2, depending on how your DM rules it. With Spell Specialization, this will be either 32 or 36.



Is it worth to take command undead?

Do you mean the spell or the feat? The spell is pretty weak, more along the lines of "Charm Undead" if you use it on something intelligent.

[Segev]

Do you mean the spell or the feat? The spell is pretty weak, more along the lines of "Charm Undead" if you use it on something intelligent.

Looking at his post and build, he means the feat. The spell is not so agonizing a decision, since he's a prepped caster and could try it out a time or few and see if he likes it or not.

I would take it, because I love the power, but I agree that it's potentially underwhelming once you get to the point that you can actually create your own undead.


For the record, Command Undead, the spell, is awesome for unintelligent undead, as the day/level duration means you basically have an undead of any number of HD per spell slot you're willing to give up over the course of a few days.

A wizard able to cast Animate Dead has a minimum of 4 2nd level spells/day, and his Command Undead spells last 7 days. Desecrate on the cheap for a wizard comes out to a 1/day command-activated item, which would be 2,260 gp [(2*3*1800+500)/5], which is easily affordable by that level. In an area of Desecration, this wizard can create up to 28 HD of undead with one casting of the spell.

Normally, this is going to cap out his control rating, as well. So one enormous 28 HD undead minion is all he could have.

However, if he is willing to spend ALL of his 2nd level spell slots every day on maintaining it, he can control 28 individual undead with Command Undead.

28 individual 28 HD minions. And then he can control 28 more HD of minions via Animate Dead's own control cap.

This gets less mighty the fewer 28 HD skeletons he can find to animate, but is still hefty. Use Command Undead on your big single-monster minions, and save the Animate cap for the horde of smaller ones.


So, while I'm not sure about the feat...the spell is absolutely worth it. Assuming a cleric can find a Domain that grants it, it's worthwhile for a cleric necromancer, too.

[Psyren]

Actually, he won't need to burn resources on Desecrate very soon - at 3rd-level, AoGs get a permanent desecrate aura (undead-creation boost only) as well as the ability to project the full effect for 10 min./level.

The feat I would say is worthwhile because it gives you a second control pool, potentially doubling your army (or giving you another beefy bruiser.)

[OldTrees1]

Animate Dead (spell) is for the swarm of skeletons
Command Undead (spell) is for your collection of powerful skeletons [This is the army pool]
Command Undead (feat) is for your intelligent undead minions.

[Azif13]

With Animate dead you can't only have a swarm of skeletons, you can have a big dragon zombie, for example.

[OldTrees1]

With Animate dead you can't only have a swarm of skeletons, you can have a big dragon zombie, for example.

True, but you have the Command Undead Spell for that. Animate dead is most efficient at battlefield control (by clogging it with undead) and letting the Command Undead (spell) dragon zombies do the brute work while the Command Undead (feat) intellegent undead add utility/spellcasting.

[Azif13]

I think is better if you directly create it and have control of it for ever and not for a day/level duration, but that is a question of taste.

[Segev]

"Better" in that you're not using up castings.

Worse in that you could have MORE undead if you used Command Undead on it. It's not like you are risking losing control over it.

[Psyren]

A nice trick with PF necromancy:

Animate some dead; you now control them. Order them to fail all their will saves and use your Command Undead on them. Since both effects grant control, both are active (you have to make Charisma checks against yourself to give them commands, but that won't matter shortly.) Now animate more undead - as you exceed your limit, the first set will slip out of your animate pool but still be held in your separate command pool. This allows you risk free transition of undead between pools. If you do it right, the first set should be in your Command pool and the second in your regular Animate Dead pool, with no gap in your control.

You can't do this in 3.5 because Rebuking doesn't actually have a save, it's an HD check - so you can't make them voluntarily fail. Because it's a will save in PF, you can give that instruction and make sure they don't break free during transition.

[Azif13]

Still, Command Undead (Spell) is a second level Wizard/Sorcerer spell, not a cleric spell, I could be able to get it at AotG 5 thanks to "Screts of Death", but not early. I was thinking on getting Command Undead and Magic Jar as my bonus spells granted by "Secrets of Death".

[OldTrees1]

Command Undead (spell) is most useful at later levels when your 2nd level slots are otherwise useless.

PS: I agree that the permanent Animate Dead pool tastes better than the Command Undead (spell) pool.

[Azif13]

Thanks to all for answering, you have given me some ideas.