Dealing wiht players who are trying to break the game?

[Draconisister]

I am starting a new campaign soon and I have a few problem players, they were part of my old group and like to exploit loopholes in the rules and create problem characters. I cant just tell them they can't play that would be mean and only leave me with 2 players.
I also have a player who likes to visit the D&Dwiki and tries to use everything on there especially if its homebrew. I have given them a large list of books they can pull stuff from and told them with in good reason i will allow things from other books if they check with me first. but he still wants to use any homebrew thing he finds this is his class of choice http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Empusar_%283.5e_Class%29 I can't decide if its balanced enough to allow or to risk losing a player.

How do you guys deal with the problem players like this? and do you have any advice for a new DM who is getting over whelmed by it all?

[Crake]

I know my advice, and probably that of the majority of other members of this forum will be: Talk to them about their playing habits. If they cause problems, give them a warning, then if it persists, just drop them. They'll never get the hint if you just let them off the hook constantly, and you can still have a game with only 2 people. It'll be more work for you, but the other two players will probably enjoy the game more as a result, and in the meantime you can look for other players.

[atomicwaffle]

never negotiate with terrorists. They want to play in YOUR game, not the other way around. If they can't not play with homebrew, find someone else.

[danzibr]

Empusar doesn't seem too powerful.

As for the other issue, why do they not abide by your wishes? Is there a good reason? If you give them plenty of material to choose from then it seems there shouldn't be a problem. Shoot, you can make a good campaign with core.

[Platymus Pus]

Empusar doesn't seem too powerful.

As for the other issue, why do they not abide by your wishes? Is there a good reason? If you give them plenty of material to choose from then it seems there shouldn't be a problem. Shoot, you can make a good campaign with core.

It doesn't aside from maybe
Heartthrob (Sp): The empusar is extremely effective at fooling others into believing they are in love. The victim’s heart believes it too, at least for a moment, until the empusar causes it to stop. This ability is identical to the heartclutch spell, causing the target who fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ empusar level + Charisma modifier) to die in 1d3 rounds unless a regenerate, heal, miracle or wish spell is cast upon them within that time. A target who succeeds on the save still takes 3d6 points of damage +1 damage per empusar level. A creature with no discernible anatomy is unaffected by this ability, and the empusar can use it a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier day starting at 15th level.

Mind Reaver (Sp): Once per day at 17th level, the empusar can enter the mind of a creature as the mindrape spell (BoVD 99). She can alter emotions, memories, allegiances, and even alignment. She is also able to inflict the effects of the insanity spell upon the unfortunate victim when she is done. Alignment changes can be corrected by a break enchantment spell (although an atonement spell might also be necessary), but serious alterations to memories can only be reversed via a wish or miracle spell. A successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ empusar level + empusar’s Charisma modifier) will negate this effect.

[prufock]

Simple solution: If you are not confident in your ability to judge the power of homebrew, don't allow homebrew, including D&D wiki. One easy rule to put down is "WotC-published material only."

If you're having trouble with loopholes and game-breaking behaviour, play a low-level or low-tier game. Also remind the players that NPCs will make use of any tricks they use.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It doesn't aside from maybe
Heartthrob (Sp): The empusar is extremely effective at fooling others into believing they are in love. The victim’s heart believes it too, at least for a moment, until the empusar causes it to stop. This ability is identical to the heartclutch spell, causing the target who fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ empusar level + Charisma modifier) to die in 1d3 rounds unless a regenerate, heal, miracle or wish spell is cast upon them within that time. A target who succeeds on the save still takes 3d6 points of damage +1 damage per empusar level. A creature with no discernible anatomy is unaffected by this ability, and the empusar can use it a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier day starting at 15th level.

Mind Reaver (Sp): Once per day at 17th level, the empusar can enter the mind of a creature as the mindrape spell (BoVD 99). She can alter emotions, memories, allegiances, and even alignment. She is also able to inflict the effects of the insanity spell upon the unfortunate victim when she is done. Alignment changes can be corrected by a break enchantment spell (although an atonement spell might also be necessary), but serious alterations to memories can only be reversed via a wish or miracle spell. A successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ empusar level + empusar’s Charisma modifier) will negate this effect.

Oh, let's not forget lockdown and negative levels by level 9...

It's a Monk, with the ability to tack on bonus damage, and some very nasty conditionals, and a very questionable theme. Personally, I'd downcheck it just for being a dandwiki article. The rest just makes it a slam dunk.

The question isn't 'will I have enough players'. The question is 'will this players attitude ruin the fun for everyone else'.

[Ignominia]

I've been in similar situations before, where the player will just flat out ignore my requests. He finds loopholes and exploits the ever loving hell out of them. He either didn't a) realize he was doing it or b) didn't care about my request to tone it down.

That campaign ended because the rest of the group didn't want to game with him anymore. He stole the show with everything he did, giving nobody else a chance. He constantly berated the rest of the group for their "poorly optimized characters"

Long story short, kick him before he ruins what you've got going. Better to have two players having fun than 1 player having fun and 4 players having NO fun...

[JusticeZero]

"No 3p/homebrew, no exceptions. Don't even ask. No, not even that. No, not even if it's perfectly reasonable." Then stick to that policy without exception. Don't houserule exceptions for anyone, don't alter anyone's class progressions, do not allow any variation from what is in the book for any reason. Strict RAW on every class. If he continues to complain, then kick them on grounds that they won't follow the rules; when it was "without approval", they were being overly vigorous trying to get you to OK things. Now, they are flat out trying to break the iron-clad rules.

[Palanan]

As virtually everyone else has said--you need to put your foot down, spell out what's not allowed and then enforce it consistently. If some of your players can't or won't adhere to the rules of your game, they need to find another game.

I know that's much easier said than done, especially if you have friendships to maintain, but the alternative will be worse. I've had players who simply wouldn't listen, and it makes for a miserable experience as a DM. If you have two players who really grok your campaign style, and who you can DM for without any problems, then there's your core group.

[OldTrees1]

I also have a player who likes to visit the D&Dwiki and tries to use everything on there especially if its homebrew. I have given them a large list of books they can pull stuff from and told them with in good reason i will allow things from other books if they check with me first. but he still wants to use any homebrew thing he finds this is his class of choice

How do you guys deal with the problem players like this? and do you have any advice for a new DM who is getting over whelmed by it all?

Um. You have a player that gets excited about new and shiny things they find. I have dealt with such players by saying no to any homebrew that I did not trust or came from a site I did not trust (shifty D&Dwiki). That player eventually came across something here in this forum's homebrew section that I did trust my judgement on. So I let him use it with the qualifier "If my estimate of the class happens to be mistaken, we might have to buff/replace this character". [I ended up buffing one, and nerfing one] They enjoyed the experience much more.

Now that was not my policy when I first started DMing. (Mostly because my players had not discovered homebrew) I would recommend requesting the player refrain from homebrew for this campaign while you gain enough experience DMing to be able to handle judging homebrew. By giving the player hope in the future you are more likely to convince them to cooperate to both of your benefit.

Strangely enough I suggest the same policy for Tier 1 classes if the new DM is starting with a high level campaign.

[zilonox]

First off, you can play with just 2 players. My current real-life group consists of myself, my friend (he and I take turns DM'ing) and his 10yr old son. We still manage to have a lot of fun. It does take a bit more tuning on the part of the DM, but it's not an overwhelming task. :smallsmile:

I like options, so when I DM (either in person or play-by-post) my rules are:

Any WotC product is allowed (yes, even Dragon)
3rd party books/PDFs created by established companies are allowed with DM approval.
3.5 version of any class/feat/spell trumps the 3.0 version.
No homebrew. No exceptions.
I reserve the right to disallow anything (no matter the source) if it becomes problematic for the game.

While I've yet to have a player express dissatisfaction with these, YMMV. I find that last one very useful when setting player expectations as far as character creation goes. I haven't had to use it yet though.

Surprisingly, I've had very few players express interest in 3rd party material...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It doesn't aside from maybe
Heartthrob (Sp): The empusar is extremely effective at fooling others into believing they are in love. The victim’s heart believes it too, at least for a moment, until the empusar causes it to stop. This ability is identical to the heartclutch spell, causing the target who fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ empusar level + Charisma modifier) to die in 1d3 rounds unless a regenerate, heal, miracle or wish spell is cast upon them within that time. A target who succeeds on the save still takes 3d6 points of damage +1 damage per empusar level. A creature with no discernible anatomy is unaffected by this ability, and the empusar can use it a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier day starting at 15th level.

Mind Reaver (Sp): Once per day at 17th level, the empusar can enter the mind of a creature as the mindrape spell (BoVD 99). She can alter emotions, memories, allegiances, and even alignment. She is also able to inflict the effects of the insanity spell upon the unfortunate victim when she is done. Alignment changes can be corrected by a break enchantment spell (although an atonement spell might also be necessary), but serious alterations to memories can only be reversed via a wish or miracle spell. A successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ empusar level + empusar’s Charisma modifier) will negate this effect.

Both spell duplication abilities gained at around the right level and with a limit on uses per day. Should be fine.


Oh, let's not forget lockdown and negative levels by level 9...

The Suggestion mixed in with the negative level grip is the only thing that keeps me from giving this class a complete go. As far as D&D wiki material goes it's amazingly well balanced, and as far as homebrew goes I see no reason to ban this class specifically.

TO THE OP: Ultimately, I'd say that this class isn't going to smash your game into tiny pieces. If you allow it, I would consider taking off the Suggestion effect from the grapple (maybe reinstate it at level 14 instead of level 9), and I would definitely remove the +1/2 level to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate, as those skills are notorious for breaking encounters. Make it 1/4th level at most.

Otherwise this one seems more than perfectly fine. Probably around Tier 4 balance-wise, maybe eeking close to a Tier 3 in later levels due solely to the social skill bonuses and the ability to cast Mindrape. Of course, if you don't like homebrew you are always well within your rights to simply say no. The choice is yours, but this choice seems fine either way.

[Darkprophet232]

I wouldn't allow the class as I don't allow pcs to be evil in my game. Oh, It might say that you can be neutral, but poison use, evil spell-like abilities, and evil-aligned natural attacks ensure the character can't stay neutral, not to mention the fluff of the class (which reads more like a race description) leaves little doubt this is a d&d version of Lust from Full Metal Alchemist, a very evil character.

As to the rest, playing with two people who are having fun is far more enjoyable than playing with four who aren't. Stand your ground and if they won't see your side, gracefully tell them to leave.

[Thrair]

Frankly, a player like this will complain about SOMETHING unless he's getting his way. If you go strict RAW, he'll argue RAI when it benefits him. If you hurt him with RAI, he's try to argue RAW. With a player like this, you also CANNOT allow third party. Too many variables for them to abuse.


Frankly, you have three real choices if he's not willing to listen to your requests to tone things down:

1) Use strict RAW for everything, which forces him, along with everyone else, to play by very defined rules. And be consistent and firm about enforcing it. Although even with that, munchkins have a habit of finding broken combos and abuse vague wordings to their benefit. This option isn't good for the game overall, because RAW has it's own issues; but it does limit his ability to cherrypick rules to his advantage at the expense of the overall table and your in-built DM-fiat.

2) Play normally, using RAI and Rule Zero at your discretion. If he complains, either ignore him or find a way to politely tell him to suck it up. It's your campaign. Ultimately, he has to play by your rules. As I said, a player like this will complain no matter what you do. It might be easier to just deal with that as the price of running the game for the rest of the table.

3) If neither of the above work to keep him in check, and he's still breaking the game at everyone else's expense.... go after him with extreme prejudice. No holds barred, dirty tricks, everything. He might try to do the same back, but not only is he already likely to be trying to do that, but your encounters are a lot more disposable than his PC is. But seriously, punish him. We're talking heavy use of single-target save-or-suck, we're talking surprise round incapacitation, saveless spells like Power Word: Stun, scry-and-fry tactics, Feebleminds. Hold nothing back in crippling his character as much as possible. If he can't take the heat, he shouldn't have made himself such a priority target.

Ultimately, what it boils down to is this: This guy's gleefully breaking the game at the rest of the table's expense, and seems to want to by the "star" of the campaign. This is bull**** on his part. The rest of the party should never be sidekicks to one PC because that PC's player is a munchkin with entitlement issues. If he can't tolerate not having his way every time and doesn't care how much his min-maxing is affecting everyone else's enjoyment, he has no right to be sitting at your table. Better to lose one extremely disruptive player than the rest of the table. Hopefully getting booted or frustrated out of a game will encourage behavior modification.

[gooddragon1]

Hm. Explain that as a DM you have to scale encounters to provide a challenge and when the power levels of party PCs vary too widely it's difficult to provide a challenge that's reasonable to all the players. Work with the players (and maybe others on this forum) to balance the homebrew they suggest while keeping it's core concepts rather than outright denying it. I'm going to get the book thrown at me for this... but ask the forum what tiers the other characters (not trying to break the game) are playing so you can find what tier to aim for with the people who are requesting homebrew material.

Just imo anyways.

[DuncanMacleod]

Ok, I'm probably going to get flamed for suggesting this. I am aware of this, so be aware that this post reflects my personal preferences (and those of the people I choose to play with these days) and I am by no means suggesting they are the only or "correct" view.

Right, that said... Yes, some players are a-holes that try to break the game by exploiting really obvious loops holes that are RAW but very clearly not RAI. I would have some respect for the amount of effort they went to to find those loopholes, if it wasn't for the fact that most of them just saw these holes on the net. I'd say that's about 20% of players. Most of them are doing it on purpose.

That said... IMHO, in the other direction, about 40% of players "break" the game for a lot of other players by not making even a reasonable effort to optimize reasonably. They just pick whatever tickles their fancy for "RP" reasons (in many cases read laziness to learn the system properly) and then bitch about being overshadowed by players who have taken the effort to learn the system and play the game properly. This ruins the game for people who want to play a game with rules to the best of their ability rather than have a big old imagination w*nk. I'm fine with the latter btw, just isn't a fun style of play for me.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to RP heavily and not bother to learn to play "well" (subjective term I know), but it kinda ruins it for everyone else and it seems to me their are much better systems around if you want a more fluffy, less crunchy experience, but anyway...

My point is that *if* the player falls into the proportion who try really hard to optimize hard rather than the proportion who are actively trying to exploit loopholes, then rather than telling your player he is banned because he is "breaking" the game, how about try a more subtle, less offensive tack of explaining that you, personally, as a DM, are not interested in running the kind of game you think he would enjoy and would rather run something more fluffy.

Now, I may be way off mark here, some players really are douches, but I am kinda tired of seeing DM's who are adverse to optimization and crunch blaming their players. You might not be that guy, I don't know :)

[NichG]

Say to them 'You've broken my games in the past several times, I would like you to stop doing that.'

They will likely say either 'okay, I'll try to hold back' or 'Its not my fault your game broke/I didn't break your game/some variation on that'.

If your players outright say something like 'haha, no' then get new players, because these people are just trying to walk all over you and abuse you for their own enjoyment, and you shouldn't tolerate that.

If they say 'okay, I'll try to hold back' then hopefully problem solved, or at least it has been taken to a point where they recognize that there's a problem with what they're doing is damaging and have agreed to try to do something about it.

If they say 'Its not my fault' or 'I didn't break your game', thats pretty much the most difficult situation. They don't understand why what they're doing is bad, or worse are refusing to let themselves see it. Trying to list off the things they did/etc that broke the game is likely to just spiral into a bigger and bigger argument, because fundamentally they don't want to accept that they did anything wrong and will just rationalize anything that went wrong as someone else's fault. Your best bet here, aside from getting new players, is as other posters have suggested - set hard boundaries and apply them fairly to everyone.

The biggest danger is getting swept up into an argument about why you're setting those boundaries. Sometimes people just don't understand the reasoning, and then you can explain your position and maybe help them understand. But there are people who will just rationalize away everything to try to get their way. I've met players who will at the same time say 'look, by the numbers I'm actually not that strong' while simultaneously bragging to the other PCs about having 10x their damage output or being able to take the rest of the party in a fight or whatever. Its important to realize when your explanations are just being ignored, because at that point trying to explain things is just increasing the frustration (likely on both sides).

At some point you may just decide that the player is more trouble than they're worth - you should make this decision before the player harms the game as a whole for everyone else and you should do it quickly and decisively. No threats of 'if you don't change I'll have to drop you', etc. Just 'sorry, this isn't working out, please don't come to the next game'.

[Draconisister]

This will actually be my first time DMing this group be we have played together before our old DM is just overwhelmed with that school thing and what not so no one has had the change to ruin anything in my game yet.

my current party as of now is a changeling Empusar (rather worried about the obscene amount of bluff at first level but i have decided to allow the class), Dwarf cleric, a Shifter Shapechanger Druid, A Warlock and a Human Psion the Warlock and Psion are the players who have caused issues in the past. The guy who is playing the warlock has told me that he thinks breaking the game is the only fun way to play and I have not had the chance to speak to him about considering the other party members. The guy playing the Psion I think just wants to steal the spot light and doesn't realize what he has been doing is wrong. I am afraid that the Empusar who is also from the old group will try to break the game because that is what people were allowed to get away with under the old DM. I have no problems with the cleric or druid

[nedz]

my current party as of now is a changeling Empusar (rather worried about the obscene amount of bluff at first level but i have decided to allow the class), Dwarf cleric, a Shifter Shapechanger Druid, A Warlock and a Human Psion the Warlock and Psion are the players who have caused issues in the past. The guy who is playing the warlock has told me that he thinks breaking the game is the only fun way to play and I have not had the chance to speak to him about considering the other party members. The guy playing the Psion I think just wants to steal the spot light and doesn't realize what he has been doing is wrong. I am afraid that the Empusar who is also from the old group will try to break the game because that is what people were allowed to get away with under the old DM. I have no problems with the cleric or druid

I think you've been lucky here.

The Empusar and Warlock are unlikely to be able to break the game though do make sure you have read the Warlock updates in the Errata. The standard Warlock misunderstandings relate to the functioning of Hideous Blow and the spell level of Eldritch Blast. Cleric and Druid on the other hand can break the game completely accidentally. Psions are quite powerful and can nova, having multiple encounters per day and knowing the rules about PP usage can stop this.