Death by CON?

[Morgarion]

I have a quick question about whether damage to a character's constitution score can kill them. I know that you can't be brought to less than one hit point by the hit point loss resulted from the adjustment to the modifier, and I know that it says somewhere in the DMG that a constitution score of 0 means you're dead, but I was wondering if it ever says explicitly whether temporary ability damage that brings your constitution score to 0 results in death. Does anyone know if this is made clear somewhere?

[mattie_p]

Yes, it is covered in the rules.


Ability Score Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)

Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.


If the Con score is reduced to 0, by whatever means, whether temporary or permanent, the result is death.

[forsaken1111]

I have a quick question about whether damage to a character's constitution score can kill them. I know that you can't be brought to less than one hit point by the hit point loss resulted from the adjustment to the modifier, and I know that it says somewhere in the DMG that a constitution score of 0 means you're dead, but I was wondering if it ever says explicitly whether temporary ability damage that brings your constitution score to 0 results in death. Does anyone know if this is made clear somewhere?

Specifically in Injury and Death it says:


A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution to 0.

[Deaxsa]

what happens if you ware playing a wizard/sorcerer/anything with a d4 hit die, and you are level 1 with 10 con (so 4 HP). for kicks and giggles (and to make this easier, over the next two levels, you roll terribly, and gain 1 hp on each level, so have 6 hp at level 3. if this character was to then take 4 con damage (-2 hp/level, taking them to a maximum of 0 hp), would they be dead (or at least permanently "stabilized" at best) while they had more than 0 Con?

[Chronos]

If your Con is 0, then your Con is 0. It's as simple as that.

EDIT: No matter how small your hit die, how poorly you roll, and how poor your (positive) Con is, you always get 1 HP per die from it.

[Fax Celestis]

what happens if you ware playing a wizard/sorcerer/anything with a d4 hit die, and you are level 1 with 10 con (so 4 HP). for kicks and giggles (and to make this easier, over the next two levels, you roll terribly, and gain 1 hp on each level, so have 6 hp at level 3. if this character was to then take 4 con damage (-2 hp/level, taking them to a maximum of 0 hp), would they be dead (or at least permanently "stabilized" at best) while they had more than 0 Con?

You would be permanently staggered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#staggered) and disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled).

[forsaken1111]

what happens if you ware playing a wizard/sorcerer/anything with a d4 hit die, and you are level 1 with 10 con (so 4 HP). for kicks and giggles (and to make this easier, over the next two levels, you roll terribly, and gain 1 hp on each level, so have 6 hp at level 3. if this character was to then take 4 con damage (-2 hp/level, taking them to a maximum of 0 hp), would they be dead (or at least permanently "stabilized" at best) while they had more than 0 Con?

Your con modifier applies normally, even if negative. You cannot gain less than 1 hitpoint per level though.

In your scenario (10 con, Level 3, 6hp (4 at level 1 + 1 + 1) and taking 4 con damage (now Con 6 so -2 con modifier) you'd have 4hp I believe. (2 for first level, 1 for level 2, 1 for level 3)

[Crake]

I know that you can't be brought to less than one hit point by the hit point loss resulted from the adjustment to the modifier

is this actually a thing? I've always thought that hp loss from con loss was lost regardless, and you could actually die from having too low HP and taking con damage?

[Deaxsa]

Your con modifier applies normally, even if negative. You cannot gain less than 1 hitpoint per level though.

In your scenario (10 con, Level 3, 6hp (4 at level 1 + 1 + 1) and taking 4 con damage (now Con 6 so -2 con modifier) you'd have 4hp I believe. (2 for first level, 1 for level 2, 1 for level 3)

the character DID gain at least 1 hit point per level. however, he then lost it due to ability damage/drain/whatever. or did you mean HAVE less than 1 hit point per level? i'm not aware of any rule that governs this odd instance, so i guess we can agree to disagree unless someone provides some RAW.

[Fax Celestis]

is this actually a thing? I've always thought that hp loss from con loss was lost regardless, and you could actually die from having too low HP and taking con damage?

AFAIK, it is vague. I've always read it as "your leveling up HP is always at least 1".


Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.

You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

The way this is written, it says to me "you always gain at least 1 HP when you level up, but if you take ability damage, your HP can drop below 1/die."

EDIT: HOWEVER, the FAQ appears to disagree on this. Too lazy to quote.

[Starbuck_II]

You would be permanently staggered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#staggered) and disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled).

Though Diehard would bypass Disabled issue. Anyway to bypass Staggered?

[forsaken1111]

the character DID gain at least 1 hit point per level. however, he then lost it due to ability damage/drain/whatever.

The PHB entry on constitutions says:


If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

"Accordingly" here refers to the previously stated rules for determining hitpoints:


You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).

So this RAW says that when your con score changes, up or down, it retroactively affects your hit die per the rules stated here which means it is applied to each hit die with a minimum of 1 hit point per level.


(Full text for completeness)

Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.

You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

[Deaxsa]

The PHB entry on constitutions says:



"Accordingly" here refers to the previously stated rules for determining hitpoints:



So this RAW says that when your con score changes, up or down, it retroactively affects your hit die per the rules stated here which means it is applied to each hit die with a minimum of 1 hit point per level.


(Full text for completeness)

Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.

You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

i disagree. using your own quotes:


You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always *gains* at least 1 hit point each time he or she *advances in level*).

and i believe the "Accordingly" to refer to the fact that you lose 1 hp for every 2 con, after all, it's the nearer antecedent(is that the right use of the word? w/e i'm using it like this now :smallbiggrin:) . i'm talking about the entire rest of the sentence:


If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease

in other words, i think it's a stretch to assume that "accordingly refers to the antecedent you're pointing us at, AND i think that that the antecedent you refer to only matters when one gains a level, which is not occurring during CON damage/drain.

edit: i missed this part:

a penalty can never drop a result below 1
thanks for the clarification. (though i doubt this will ever come up, lol)

edit2: actually, wait. it redefines what i just quoted as:

that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level

the ("That is" is very important here) so my argument still stands.

[forsaken1111]

i disagree. using your own quotes:



and i believe the "Accordingly" to refer to the fact that you lose 1 hp for every 2 con, after all, it's the nearer antecedent(is that the right use of the word? w/e i'm using it like this now :smallbiggrin:) . i'm talking about the entire rest of the sentence:



in other words, i think it's a stretch to assume that "accordingly refers to the antecedent you're pointing us at, AND i think that that the antecedent you refer to only matters when one gains a level, which is not occurring during CON damage/drain.

You're... kidding right? I pointed to a RAW text in the rules, in the same section of the rules as that 'accordingly'. Literally it says "This is how CON affects your hitpoints when leveling" and the next bit says "And if your con changes, adjust hitpoints accordingly".

Can you show me rules text which backs up your claim of "the fact that you lose 1 hp for every 2 con"? It doesn't say that. It says you apply your con modifier to your Hitdice roll. After that, it says you adjust your hitpoints if your con changes.

[forsaken1111]

My point is even backed up by the text in Ability Score Loss:


If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

So in every way I can see, you're wrong RAW.

[Deaxsa]

My point is even backed up by the text in Ability Score Loss:



So in every way I can see, you're wrong RAW.

i only see one way, and that's what's included in the post i just quoted. nowhere else does it prove me wrong. good show though.

[forsaken1111]

What other rules did you think "Accordingly" referred to, rather than the one immediately preceding it in the same section of text?

Nevermind, point made. Anyway I think the answer to the scenario provided is that you have 4hp. You cannot die from HP loss induced by con damage but the con damage itself WILL kill you at 0.

[Alabenson]

The way Constitution interacts with HP when it [Con] raises and lowers can be a bit confusing. Its actually a little easier if you look at HP this way;
Your current HP is the difference of two different values; your Maximum HP, and the amount of Damage you've taken. If your Constitution is lowered, your Maximum HP decreases as a result to a minimum of 1 hp per HD. This new Maximum HP value is then modified by the amount of Damage you've taken to determine your new Current HP.

[Deaxsa]

Though Diehard would bypass Disabled issue. Anyway to bypass Staggered?

favor of the martyr, page 89 of the spell compendium, provides a bunch of immunities, and among them is staggered! although, as we have discovered, you could really only have this situation with a character who lost enough constitution to go to 0 hp while what caused them to lose the CON was NOT ability damage/drain, and it did NOT happen during a level up. (not sure about a level down... maybe you could rez someone until they had 0 hp? EDIT: aging would also do it, as would Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm), and by that i mean changing to a race with a lower CON than yours. again, this would be iffy because level is changing. bestow curse is not damage/drain.)

[Deaxsa]

What other rules did you think "Accordingly" referred to, rather than the one immediately preceding it in the same section of text?

"accordingly" refers to a sentence which redefines itself as only making a difference when leveling up.

edit: pardon the double post.

[forsaken1111]

favor of the martyr, page 89 of the spell compendium, provides a bunch of immunities, and among them is staggered! although, as we have discovered, you could really only have this situation with a character who lost enough constitution to go to 0 hp while what caused them to lose the CON was NOT ability damage/drain, and it did NOT happen during a level up. (not sure about a level down... maybe you could rez someone until they had 0 hp?)

I'm not sure how you could ever achieve that state of 0hp. Even with a 1 Con you'd have at least 1hp per hit die. Is there an effect that simply lowers max HP?

Now I'm trying to scenariocraft a way to actually do this, so I can weaponize it.

[Deaxsa]

I'm not sure how you could ever achieve that state of 0hp. Even with a 1 Con you'd have at least 1hp per hit die. Is there an effect that simply lowers max HP?

Now I'm trying to scenariocraft a way to actually do this, so I can weaponize it.

unfortunately, i just discovered the following:

apparently, if it's temporary ability score loss, it is officially damage, and if it's permanent, it's drain... (they are redefined in the second sentence:)

Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

this has two implications. first of all, we'd need to find a way to decrease someone's ability score in a non-permanent, non-temporary way for the desired scenario to occur (good luck making that happen :smalleek:), and second, if you can remove ability drain, you can remove the penalties for aging. (this also makes me wonder if being immune to death effects makes you immune to immune to death by old age)

[Karnith]

Is there an effect that simply lowers max HP?
There are a few. One is simply to take the frail flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), though you can't actually use that offensively (for obvious reasons). There is also at least one monster that can deal permanent HP damage: the Lavawight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/lavawight.htm).

[Chronos]

If you already have taken normal HP damage, then yes, Con damage (or rather, the combination of the Con damage and the normal damage) could kill you before your Con reached 0.

Example: A 15th-level wizard with a 10 Con has 39 HP. He takes 25 points of damage, and is now at 14 HP. He then takes 6 points of Con damage, which reduces his maximum HP to 15. His current HP decrease by the same amount, to -10, and he dies, despite still having 4 Con.

[forsaken1111]

If you already have taken normal HP damage, then yes, Con damage (or rather, the combination of the Con damage and the normal damage) could kill you before your Con reached 0.

Example: A 15th-level wizard with a 10 Con has 39 HP. He takes 25 points of damage, and is now at 14 HP. He then takes 6 points of Con damage, which reduces his maximum HP to 15. His current HP decrease by the same amount, to -10, and he dies, despite still having 4 Con.

Good point! I didn't realize reductions in maxhp also reduced current hp by that amount. Where is that cited?

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you already have taken normal HP damage, then yes, Con damage (or rather, the combination of the Con damage and the normal damage) could kill you before your Con reached 0.

Example: A 15th-level wizard with a 10 Con has 39 HP. He takes 25 points of damage, and is now at 14 HP. He then takes 6 points of Con damage, which reduces his maximum HP to 15. His current HP decrease by the same amount, to -10, and he dies, despite still having 4 Con.

That reminds me of something, a PC psion used death urge on a wyvern(as it carried off an NPC). So I had the Wyvern stab it self with its tail. It dealt eighteen points of damage to it self and rolled a natural 1 on its fort save vs poison. (I rolled 12 on the 2d6). Dropping its con to 3 and its maximum hit points to 17. Putting it at negative 1. The fall finished it off.

[lsfreak]

Good point! I didn't realize reductions in maxhp also reduced current hp by that amount. Where is that cited?

I know it's mentioned under a barbarian's rage, since they increase and then decrease their Con score. Off to top of my head, not sure where else it's listed.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Good point! I didn't realize reductions in maxhp also reduced current hp by that amount. Where is that cited?
I know it's mentioned under a barbarian's rage, since they increase and then decrease their Con score. Off to top of my head, not sure where else it's listed.Look up Constitution score in basics.


"If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly"

While many people deduct damage from hit points, I find it easier to track damage by addition just like you track non-lethal damage.

[gooddragon1]

Point buy system

Con at 8
Elf
Con at 6
Pathetic: Con
Con at 4
Wizard
d4 HD
Frail Flaw

Rolls max each time for HP
4-3=1 HP
-1 from frail = 0 hp

HP gained per level = 4 -3 (from con) -1 from frail = 0 hp

HP at level 100 = 0 hp.

Would you play a level 100 wizard with 0 hp?

EDIT: Could you play a level 100 wizard with 0 hp...

[forsaken1111]

Look up Constitution score in basics.Yes but your quoted text doesn't say that current HP is dropped when max hp changes. It says 'accordingly' but according to what? By my reading it is just referring to the previous passage, which says how con affects hit dice. I can find nowhere that spells out how you handle changes in maxhp for a wounded character except for the specific case of Barbarian Rage.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yes but your quoted text doesn't say that current HP is dropped when max hp changes. It says 'accordingly' but according to what? By my reading it is just referring to the previous passage, which says how con affects hit dice. I can find nowhere that spells out how you handle changes in maxhp for a wounded character except for the specific case of Barbarian Rage.

Your hit points are calculated by your HD+(X*HD) Where X is your constitution modifier. If your con changes your maximum hit points also change.

As you quoted yours self

If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

The actual Glossary (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_abilityscoreloss&alpha=) from the DMG or on the Wizard's website actually provides and example of that rule in action.

If a character's Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. For example, at 7th level, Tordek is hit by poison that causes his Constitution to drop from 16 to 13. His Constitution modifier falls from +3 to +1, so he loses 14 hit points (2 per level). A minute later, the poison deals another 8 points of Constitution damage, dropping his score to 5 and his modifier to -3. He loses another 28 hit points -- for a total of 42 hit points lost because of an overall 6-point drop in his Constitution modifier.
He's lost hit points, the hp lost due to con damage is treated just like damage. So it would stack perfectly fine with regular damage.

[forsaken1111]

True, but as it says right there in the quote, "A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die."

So you can't actually DIE from the HP loss from con loss because it can never reduce your hit point score to less than 1 hp per hit die.

[Lord Vukodlak]

True, but as it says right there in the quote, "A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die."

So you can't actually DIE from the HP loss from con loss because it can never reduce your hit point score to less than 1 hp per hit die.

Because you get a minimum of 1hp per hit die, constitution damage can't reduce you below 1hp per hit die. But that rule only applies to hp loss from con damage. Regular damage will still kill you and stacks perfectly fine with hp loss from con.

So its not the con damage that reduces your HP below 0, its the con damage plus the regular damage that will kill you. Damage you've taken doesn't go away when your con drops, its why Barbarians who are badly damaged need healing before they're rage ends. The HP goes way the damage doesn't

[forsaken1111]

I've still yet to see a rule which states that con loss directly reduces your 'current' hitpoints. The only one quoted so far explicitly says that it cannot reduce you below 1 HP per hit die.

I promise I'm not arguing just to be pedantic. I think it works that way too, I just see no rules which state that and I'd really like to know one way or the other.

So lets look at the rules again.

Source: SRD entry on Constitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)
Constitution (Con)

Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.
You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:
Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.
Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

What can we draw from this?

Fact: Your hitpoints are calculated by the results of your hitdice.
Fact: You apply your constitution modifier to your hitdice.
Fact: Your constitution modifier cannot cause your hitdice result to be less than 1.

Ambiguous text: If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

According to what? My reading is that this refers to the rule immediately prior to it regarding constitution modifiers applying to hitdice, and that RAW when your constitution modifier changes you alter your hitpoints according to that rule. That rule states that you apply your con modifier to your hitdice results, with a minimum result of 1.

Source: SRD entry on Ability Score Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)


Ability Score Loss
Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.

Having a score of 0 in an ability is different from having no ability score whatsoever.

Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.

If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attacks or natural weapons.

Fact: A con of 0 means you are not alive. Period.
Fact: Ability scores cannot drop below zero.
Fact: If your con modifier drops FOR ANY REASON you lose 2 hitpoints per hit die.
Fact: A hit point score CANNOT be reduced by constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hitpoint per hit die.

That last one is not ambiguous. It says that con damage or drain CAN NOT reduce your hit point score below 1hp/hd. It doesn't say "Unless you have already suffered damage". It doesn't make a distinction between HP maximum and HP current. It says can't.

I have yet to see a rule (and I have been looking) that says HP loss from con loss stack with 'real damage'. From RAW, what I have seen, con damage cannot result in death from lack of hitpoints. Ever. It can result in death by Con = 0, but not hitpoint death.

The only related rule cites the specific effects of a barbarian's rage, which states:


Rage (Ex)
A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

Source: SRD entry on Barbarians (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm)

This makes a case for your interpretation of how it works, but it says very clearly that this is specifically for the case of a barbarian's rage.

Its a minor point, and it may seem pedantic, but I really am looking for a rule that backs that up because I THOUGHT it worked that way and I'm finding out that I've probably been incorrect.

[Lord Vukodlak]

That last one is not ambiguous. It says that con damage or drain CAN NOT reduce your hit point score below 1hp/hd. It doesn't say "Unless you have already suffered damage". It doesn't make a distinction between HP maximum and HP current. It says can't.
It doesn't need to because its not the con damage reducing you below 1hp/hd its the regular damage reducing you below zero. If the two don't stack then tracking hp loss from con is utterly meaningless.
Find the rule that says they don't stack

Furthermore in the glossary

A hit point score can't be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. At 7th level, Mialee has 22 hit points when fully healed. Even if her Constitution score drops to 5 or lower, she will still have at least 7 hit points (less any damage she may take).
If she takes eight damage she'd drop to negative one.

[forsaken1111]

Well that's at least suggestive. I'll point out again that I agree with you, I just couldn't find anything explicit. That still doesn't say what you're saying but its closer than anything I've found. That text simply says that she may take further damage.

You're saying that if I am at 2hp and my con modifier drops by 1, I am now at 0hp and dying. I agree that this is what should happen, but I can't find text to back it up. I'll keep looking.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well that's at least suggestive. I'll point out again that I agree with you, I just couldn't find anything explicit. That still doesn't say what you're saying but its closer than anything I've found. That text simply says that she may take further damage.
Which would mean that hp damage stacks with hp lost to con even if the target was reduced to 1/hp per hit die.


You're saying that if I am at 2hp and my con modifier drops by 1, I am now at 0hp and dying. I agree that this is what should happen, but I can't find text to back it up. I'll keep looking.That would depend on much damage you've taken

The text is there your just interrupting the wrong way.
A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

It can't do it but regular damage can and its the regular damage that reduces you below 0. It doesn't matter that the rule says "con damage can't" because its not the con damage that brings you below zero its the regular damage.

[Lyndworm]

That reminds me of something, a PC psion used death urge on a wyvern(as it carried off an NPC). So I had the Wyvern stab it self with its tail. It dealt eighteen points of damage to it self and rolled a natural 1 on its fort save vs poison. (I rolled 12 on the 2d6). Dropping its con to 3 and its maximum hit points to 17. Putting it at negative 1. The fall finished it off.
Not trying to tell you how to run your game or anything, but...

Creatures with natural poison attacks are immune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison) to their own poison.