[3.5] Sorcadin Help EDIT: Build Ready, please comment

[A.A.King]

If been trying to build a Sorcadin, but for the last 8 levels I don't like Sacred Exorist. I can however not find another decent Prestige Class that progresses Spellcasting 8/8 and has has 3/4 or more BAB. So I was wondering if anyone else knew a good prestige class for me?

Current build: Dwarf Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5
Using Dwarf Sorcerer Substitution level 1 and the Harmonious Knight Substitution Level for Paladin 1 (Which at our game is always ruled as a form of Bardic Music)

EDIT: Thanks to AMFV I got introduced to the Harper Paragon, which helped me develop this build.

Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Harper Paragon 8

ACF:
Paladin: Avening Harmonious Knight (not of Freedom sadly, I need the Diplomacy Skill)
Trade in Detect Evil and Lay on Hands for Inspire Courage +1 and Favored Enemy (Goblinoid). Goblinoid is normaly not allowed by the Avenging variant but my DM lets me because it fits with Dwarfness
Sorcerer: Trade in familiar for Arcane Earthbond

Feat:
1. Sacred Vow (Requirement)
F1. Power Attack (Power Attack)
F2. Combat Casting (Requirement)
3. Snowflake Wardance (Charisma to Damage thanks to Power Attack)
6. Arcane Preparation (Now I can pray to the gods for my Holy Armour)
9. Arcane Strike (Spellslots to Power)
12. Vow of Obedience (Requirement)
15. Nemesis (Evil) (Evil-dar)
18. Favored Power Attack (Perfect for an Evil Hunter)

[Srasy]

The only things I can think of are runesmith(just because it looks like it would fit quite nicely) and eldritch knight which loses 1 caster level

[herrhauptmann]

Phantom knight, also loses CL though.

[A.A.King]

Runesmith has 1/2 Bab and Phantom loses a caster level.

Right now I'm just looking for Fullcasting and 3/4 or more BAB to get the 16 BAB and 9th level spells at 20th Level of the standard Sorcadin

[Keld Denar]

Divine Oracle, IIRC, is full casting and 3/4 BAB. The feat can be purchased via Frog God's Fane in Comp Scoundrel. 2nd level gives evasion which couples nicely with Divine Grace.

[Scythal]

Unseen seer is 3/4 BAB and full casting.

[nedz]

Divine Oracle, IIRC, is full casting and 3/4 BAB. The feat can be purchased via Frog God's Fane in Comp Scoundrel. 2nd level gives evasion which couples nicely with Divine Grace.

Divine Oracle is full casting and 1/2 BAB

[A.A.King]

Unseer Seer is nice, but still hoping to find something better suited to a more free-spirited kind of character.

[Segev]

If you can squeeze in 10 levels of it Rainbow Savant would probably fit nicely, and its 10th level gives you access to Cleric spells to learn. Divine Power is then yours to abuse for the full BAB.

It also fits your desire for a "free spirited" sort of character, as well as being strongly good-aligned and a sorc-friendly PrC with a divine twist.

[nedz]

RS is 1/2 BAB and 6/10 casting by the table, 10/10 casting by the text.

What is it about US which doesn't appeal ?

Anyway
Wild Soul, only 1/2 BAB and 9/10 casting but with plenty of Feyness and bonus spells known.

[A.A.King]

I don't want the Divine Power Trick and I could more easily take an extra level of Sorcerer to use that ACF that gives you one domain

US is something I like for more rogue-ish builds. It's a great class, but not really thematicly for this build. Advanced learning would be nice, but I wouldn't get the +3d6 Damage Bonus it offer. Also, the d4 hit die do hurt the Melee side of this build while the extra skill points don't matter much at that point

[Keld Denar]

You might want to check Urban Savant from Cityscape. It's full casting and 6+ skill points, but I don't remember the BAB on it.

Just curious, what's wrong with Sac Ex? It's more of the Paladin flavor you get at the start, with an emphasis on combating either undead or outsiders. The Exorcism ability is mostly a novelty. It's otherwise a solid chassis.

[Larkas]

And now you know why the "standard" sorcadin build is pretty much the only one used. It is VERY hard to find a replacement for Sacred Exorcist.

I'll try thinking of something else, but if you're open to some stinky cheese and are adept of the idea that Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons (myself, I'm not), you could grab Loredrake. Losing CL would be feasible then, and you could take levels in Knight Phantom or what have you.

[herrhauptmann]

Spellwarp sniper.
Medium bab, 5/5 casting. You'd need to use an acf to get the sneak attack though.

Legacy champion. Medium bab, use it to advance your sorcerer class features.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For legacy champion I would actually advance the Abjurant Champion's abilities, you get higher level swift action abjurations spells that way.

[Axinian]

Ruathar from Races of the Wild covers 3 of those levels... Full-casting and super easy to qualify for. Doesn't give anything that useful otherwise though.

[A.A.King]

I know that Sacred Exorsist is a very solid class, a nice paladin feel that makes the whole thing fall together nicely. I just like to shift towards a more Freedom Fighter type of Paladin then a Divine Warrior of the Church type of Paladin. I also would like to make the build a bit more different from the "standard" than just to have the ability to use Snowflake Wardance twice a day.

Legacy Champion still wouldn't give you 9th level spells, I'd lose an extra 2 caster levels.

Which ACF would give me the Sneak Attack / Sudden Strike I need to get into Spellwarp Sniper?

[Darrin]

Which ACF would give me the Sneak Attack / Sudden Strike I need to get into Spellwarp Sniper?

I'm not aware of any ACFs that can get you sneak/sudden/skirmish (maybe Generic Bonus Feats from UA?). Outside of Magelord (which is NOT worth the trouble), the only way I know would be to take Martial Study, then Martial Stance at ECL 12. Unseen Seer 8 is better than Spellwarp Sniper 5, but getting all the skill ranks for Unseen Seer via Paladin/Sorcerer levels would be a royal pain in the tuchas.

[Segev]

Greenstar Adept has the BAB and is tanky, but at only half caster progression falls short of your goals.

There's always Eldrich Knight. :/

[herrhauptmann]

For legacy champion I would actually advance the Abjurant Champion's abilities, you get higher level swift action abjurations spells that way.

Can you advance a prestige class's abilities past its capstone? You know, have the power of a 6th level AC?

[Dusk Eclipse]

If it is based on a numerical formula (IE=Class level or 1/2 class level) arguably yes.

[Karnith]

Can you advance a prestige class's abilities past its capstone? You know, have the power of a 6th level AC?
If the ability is explicitly dependent on levels in the PrC (like, say, an Assassin's Death Attack, or an Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor), then yes, you can. Classes like Uncanny Trickster and (I believe) Legacy Champion can progress effective class levels, in addition to class features, in other classes.

[A.A.King]

I'm not aware of any ACFs that can get you sneak/sudden/skirmish (maybe Generic Bonus Feats from UA?). Outside of Magelord (which is NOT worth the trouble), the only way I know would be to take Martial Study, then Martial Stance at ECL 12. Unseen Seer 8 is better than Spellwarp Sniper 5, but getting all the skill ranks for Unseen Seer via Paladin/Sorcerer levels would be a royal pain in the tuchas.

I'm not aware of any either, but herrhauptmann suggested using ACF for gaining sneak attack so I'm curieus.
And skills really are the problem. With Paladin, Sorcerer, Spellsword & Abjurant Champion all giving only 2 + Int Skillpoints a level I'm very limited. I toyed with the idea of Adding Sublime Chord and Knight Phantom (First level of Knight Phantom before Sublime Chord obviously) to get 9th level casting that way but with it requiring 48 Skill points in 10 levels there is no way of that happening.

[A_S]

Are the starting levels set in stone? Because you can make a "sorcadin of freedom" character (which it sounds like you're going for) pretty well with Sublime Chord, and if you're already using Harmonious Knight, it sounds like you don't mind a little Bard flavor on the side.

Since you're a Dwarf, and counting Harmonious Knight as Bardic Music, you could go something like:

Battle Sorc 4/Harmonious Paladin of Freedom 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Sublime Chord 2/Runesmith 4/Abjurant Champion +4

That still requires the Sublime Chord skills, but not the Knight Phantom ones.

[nedz]

I'm not aware of any either, but herrhauptmann suggested using ACF for gaining sneak attack so I'm curious.

Having just been through the list of Paladin and Sorcerer ACFs there are none that will do this directly. Using ACF chaining might be possible though that won't fly at many tables.

[A.A.King]

Are the starting levels set in stone? Because you can make a "sorcadin of freedom" character (which it sounds like you're going for) pretty well with Sublime Chord, and if you're already using Harmonious Knight, it sounds like you don't mind a little Bard flavor on the side.

Since you're a Dwarf, and counting Harmonious Knight as Bardic Music, you could go something like:

Battle Sorc 4/Harmonious Paladin of Freedom 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Sublime Chord 2/Runesmith 4/Abjurant Champion +4

That still requires the Sublime Chord skills, but not the Knight Phantom ones.

The Knight phantom ones are only 4 ranks in ride, not really the problem.
With an int of 10, I'm pretty sure I don't get enough skill points to qualify for Sublime Chord by the time I hit level 10

EDIT:
I was afraid of that, would have made this much easier if I could just get easy acces to Sneak Attack without having to take an extra level

[A_S]

Why is your int 10? Did you already roll/assign stats?

[A.A.King]

I have not yet assigned, but other then for the qualification skills I have no need for a high int. I already need a high Charisma, Strength and Constitution score. A positive dexterity would be nice as well, especially with a -2 to dex (Either Gold, Dream or Desert Dwarf) because I'd rather not get a negative modifier. Leaving me with Wisdom as a dump stat and Intelligence, with only wisdom as a true this-can-be-negative dump stat

To get the 48 Skill points needed for Sublime Chord at level 10, I'd need 48/13 =3.7 Skill points per level. Which comes down to a +2 INT modifier because all my classes give 2 skill points on their own.

Right now, using 32-Point Buy my stats look like this (after modifiers: -2 Dex +2 Con):

16, 10, 16 10, 8, 16

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If been trying to build a Sorcadin, but for the last 8 levels I don't like Sacred Exorist. I can however not find another decent Prestige Class that progresses Spellcasting 8/8 and has has 3/4 or more BAB. So I was wondering if anyone else knew a good prestige class for me?

There is no such class. What about Sacred Exorcist do you not like? If it's the Dismissal spell known requirement, once you get the 4th level its own Dispel Evil spell-like ability meets its own prerequisite, plus you can use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4). If it's the flavor of the class you don't like, read the built-in adaptation. If you don't like the class features, just don't use them; all you really need is the chassis.

[nedz]

Another Sacred Exorcist entry trick:

Arcane Disciple (Balance or Exorcism) will get you Dismissal.
Arcane Disciple (Good or Exorcism) will get you Dispel Evil.

AD is obviously in character for your Sorcadin.

[A.A.King]

It's the flavour of the class which I don't like for this particular character. And if I can't find the right prestige class to get me similar power then I don't mind sacrificing a bit of power to maintain the flavour of my character. Thanks for helping everyone

[AMFV]

There is no such class. What about Sacred Exorcist do you not like? If it's the Dismissal spell known requirement, once you get the 4th level its own Dispel Evil spell-like ability meets its own prerequisite, plus you can use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4). If it's the flavor of the class you don't like, read the built-in adaptation. If you don't like the class features, just don't use them; all you really need is the chassis.


Actually the Harper Paragon works for those requirements getting 3/4 BAB, D10 Hit Dice, and is full casting.

[A.A.King]

I knew there had to be some more classes. It definetly feels more like a Freedom Figther to me, though I'd have to find a way to get a Favoured Enemy. Harper Paragon looks promising (Though I don't know what a Harper is)

[AMFV]

I knew there had to be some more classes. It definetly feels more like a Freedom Figther to me, though I'd have to find a way to get a Favoured Enemy. Harper Paragon looks promising (Though I don't know what a Harper is)


I usually use the favored enemy regional feat from Fearun, but that is regional stuff and may need adaption. The Harpers are an organization in FR, normally I just adjust it to fit different organizations. Also don't forget that you could then take Nemesis (Evil), and then you'd be able to detect evil creatures with 60'.

[A.A.King]

This helps a lot, Vow of Obedience and Sacred Vow are a little pointless, but you can't have everything.

[nedz]

No relevant Sorcerer ACFs, but I found a few Paladin options

Avenging (UA, p 58): Gain favoured enemy as ranger. Lose lay on hands, remove disease, and turn undead.

Crescent Moon Knight Substitution Levels (CV, p 37): add Knowledge (local Impiltur)
4th level: Favoured Enemy (lycanthropes) +2, replaces turn undead

Shadow Cloak Knight Substitution Levels (CV, web): gnome only, add Hide and Move Silently to class skill list
4th level: Favoured Enemy

[A.A.King]

Thank you, Avenging saves me 1 feat. Sad to see Lay on Hands go but it's not worth a Feat, it also makes the build come together. Harper Paragon works well with Harmonious Knight (because of the Perform Requirment) and the Avenging Paladin gives it a Harper Paragon feel from the beginning.

I always thought the name Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian made it sound like you went overkill on the ACF but right now I have Avenging Harmonious Knight (Paladin) of Freedom. It has a nice ring to it.

[Darrin]

Faiths & Pantheons has a couple that might work, although you'd need to use Paladin of Freedom to meet the alignment requirements:

Auspician 8 (needs Luck domain, maybe via Planar Touchstone?)
Heartwader 8 (worship Sune)

If none of those had enough of the campaign setting worked into the requirements, then here's another obscure one:

Knight of the Thorn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)


Two medium BAB PrCs will also work, so long as they have full casting for the first 4 levels (+3 BAB each). In Forgotten Realms we have:

Moonstar Agent 4 (Waterdeep)
Evereskan Tomb Guardian 4 (PGtF)
Spellsinger 4 (Races of Faerun)

In Eberron we have:

Nosomatic Chirurgeon 4 (Dragonmarked)
Escalation Mage 4 (Faiths of Eberron)

You could also replace one of those with Ruathar 3/Dragonslayer 1.

[A.A.King]

With Harper Paragon I finally decided on the feats for the build. Any tips for improvement?

[herrhauptmann]

Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Harper Paragon 8

ACF:
Paladin: Avening Harmonious Knight (not of Freedom sadly, I need the Diplomacy Skill)
Trade in Detect Evil and Lay on Hands for Inspire Courage +1 and Favored Enemy (Goblinoid). Goblinoid is normaly not allowed by the Avenging variant but my DM lets me because it fits with Dwarfness
Sorcerer: Trade in familiar for Arcane Earthbond

Feat:
1. Sacred Vow (Requirement)
F1. Power Attack (Power Attack)
F2. Combat Casting (Requirement)
3. Snowflake Wardance (Charisma to Damage thanks to Power Attack)
6. Arcane Preparation (Now I can pray to the gods for my Holy Armour)
9. Arcane Strike (Spellslots to Power)
12. Vow of Obedience (Requirement)
15. Nemesis (Evil) (Evil-dar)
18. Favored Power Attack (Perfect for an Evil Hunter)
Critique:
Does Harper Paragon grant favored enemy at all? I don't have it in front of me right now. If it doesn't, how are you getting Favored Enemy:Evil for your nemesis feat?

Feel like Favored Power Attack could come online sooner too, but not sure where.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid.

[A.A.King]

Yes, it grants Favored Enemy (Evil) at level 2 which is a special kind of Favored Enemy I don't believe you can get with normal Ranger Favored Enemy. Favored Power attack is really strong because of the Favored Enemy (Evil) because most people I'd be fighting as a Paladin are probably Evil. Before that it'd just be a bonus against Goblinoids which won't see much action. The only really switch it can make is with Arcane Strike and Arcane Strike is just much better then Favored Power Attack before Favored Enemy (Evil) (and it might even be better after that)