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GoblinGilmartin
2013-09-04, 12:20 PM
So, my best friend just joined my AD&D2E game, and thanks to a series of jokes, he's playing a minotaur berserker (STR and CON 19, +7 damage adj. etc.). I'm aware that this character is like a blender with legs, and my friend is aware of this as well, and we want to make sure that this new character won't overshadow any of the newer players (which is all of them) in my group, who didn't really load up on combat.

Any reasonable suggestions for ways I can keep it confined a little? I want everyone to get their chance to shine in this game.

ClockShock
2013-09-04, 12:30 PM
If the other characters didn't load up on combat, what did they load up on?
Do more of that.

GoblinGilmartin
2013-09-04, 12:32 PM
If the other characters didn't load up on combat, what did they load up on?
Do more of that.

I've got a bard (elven minstrel), a theif/mage, and a beastmaster.

paddyfool
2013-09-04, 02:43 PM
OK... so the elven minstrel can take the lead in social situations, the thief/mage the lead in thinky/trap-outwitting situations, and the beastmaster in scouting (via pets, possibly), wilderness survival and tracking situations. In combat, the minstrel can concentrate mainly on getting to a safe place and staying alive, the thief/mage can look for clever ways to turn the tide of battle and the beastmaster can direct his pets in ways to support the minotaur in laying down the smack.

Maybe, anyway. I've never actually played 2E...

BlckDv
2013-09-04, 02:52 PM
I would go the route of handing less information over up front and let the PCs "Discover" adventures.

Make some rumor type notes about events that you can reward the bard with when he socializes in town or when interacting with others on the road. Place events out in the wilderness where the beastmaster can shine helping the party find the important locations and avoid outlying scouts/dead ends. Use enemies that prepare their lairs/adventure sites with traps like pits, trip lines etc., working up to magical traps like scrying devices left by an absent foe, etc. so the thief can shine by making the area "safe to fight" or preventing future foes from learning too much about the PCs.. and then the Minotaur gets to shine during "mop up" when you fight the foes that are guarding the core objective. It rotates the spotlight rather than trying to force it to be shared at one time by very different skills.

JusticeZero
2013-09-04, 03:00 PM
I've got a bard (elven minstrel), a theif/mage, and a beastmaster.
Which translates as.. what? A somewhat woodsy lore geek, a magically inclined spy, and a woodsy type? That seems like the core to a campaign heavy on exploration and intelligence gathering to me.

NichG
2013-09-04, 03:33 PM
It'll be a bit weird in 2ed I think - there are very specific things that the classes get mechanically, and the rest will be up to DM and players to decide. The fact that your thief and bard are both using the thief-skills system is going to make them overlap somewhat. I've never seen a Beastmaster in play in 2ed, so I can't help much there.

I would generally say, more tricks&traps, intrigue, and lore stuff; use a bit less combat, and do more combats with multiple weaker enemies instead of single powerful enemies - the minotaur can only slaughter one thing a round (with the exception of things with less than 1HD), so you can use that fact to make sure everyone has something to do in a fight. That said, non-fighters are at a much bigger disadvantage in 2ed combats than in 3.5ed combats due to how hard it is to get +To Hit (most characters are sporting the 3.5ed equivalent of Str 10, Dex 10 and can't take Weapon Focus or other things to raise their to-hit if they aren't a fighter), so just be aware of that. 2ed casters are powerful but they also get fewer slots, and the ones in your party are either multiclassed (thief/mage) or have slow progressions (bard).

One thing you could do, which is a lot easier in 2ed than 3ed, is just give out a few bennies to help the others keep up. The Beastmaster could end up with an interesting pet. The Bard might end up with a bunch of hirelings or sworn allies (having 5 Lv1 guys with bows is actually useful in 2ed, unlike in 3ed), etc.

nedz
2013-09-04, 06:17 PM
2E Bards are more like half Mage / half Thief, ..., wait ! You have two of those in the party. Well both Thieves and Mages can be built to be very different or very similar.

These guys are going to be doing the scouting, and then supporting the front line in combat. The front line is going to be your minotaur and a lot of animals.

I notice that you have no Cleric. This means that your front line will suffer from not being on full HP most of the time, which means that often they will not be as strong as you may think that they are. There are other issues here too: poison and illness may cripple the party on occasion etc.

Well that's how I think it will pan out, given the limited information I have.

holywhippet
2013-09-04, 06:40 PM
You could try giving them a trap where brute strength will only hold off the inevitable for a time. Like have the ceiling slowly lowering on them and the berserker has to try and hold it up while the others figure out the puzzles that will deactivate it. Or have a door with an endless stream of undead coming through. The berserker can hold them off for a time but will get overwhelmed eventually. The others need to solve a puzzle/riddle with one attempt per combat round to close the door.

For regular combat, most enemies can work out the relative threat level of their enemies so have the tougher enemies focus on the minotaur while the rest get weaker foes.

Alejandro
2013-09-04, 07:11 PM
Remember that the berserker can't smash anything he can't reach (or throw something at, to a lesser extent.)

Tengu_temp
2013-09-04, 07:17 PM
How about asking your friend to make a different, less overpowered character?



For regular combat, most enemies can work out the relative threat level of their enemies so have the tougher enemies focus on the minotaur while the rest get weaker foes.

Bad idea. The other players will only feel more irrelevant when the minotaur hacks through ogres while they only get to handle goblins and other weak crap.

Scow2
2013-09-04, 08:14 PM
How about asking your friend to make a different, less overpowered character?It's not "really" overpowered. Sure, it can mop up anyone that gets close to it in combat, but it can't cast spells, nor sneak around with the rest of the party when discretion is called for.

My suggestion: Don't design Combat as something everyone needs to be doing. Let the Minotaur Berzerker handle the skullcracking, while the other party members handle encounters set to their OWN strengths.

It's obviously a set-up for an Exploration and Intrigue, not Combat, based campaign. The Berzerker gets to be the muscle of the party. Make combat encounters one of the smaller aspects of the adventure - possibly by using small-scale application of "splitting the party", but keeping them close.

Tengu_temp
2013-09-04, 08:38 PM
90% of what all the characters do together in almost every RPG ever is combat. Someone who is head above everyone else at fighting is overpowered.

Also, this is a game with newbies. You can bet they want to have fun fights, not an intrigue-heavy game where the whole combat is almost entirely handled by the minotaur because it's better at fighting than everyone else.

Scow2
2013-09-04, 08:40 PM
90% of what all the characters do together in almost every RPG ever is combat. Someone who is head above everyone else at fighting is overpowered.

Also, this is a game with newbies. You can bet they want to have fun fights, not an intrigue-heavy game where the whole combat is almost entirely handled by the minotaur because it's better than everyone else.D&D has more mechanics than just combat. It also has a strong exploration aspect to it as well. 90% of what characters do together in an RPG is "Engage in behaviors that amasses Wealth and XP." Unfortunately, some idiot decided to make the only way to get those reliably be combat, in a system with only one combat-oriented job.

Does 2e still have GP for XP? That should keep them on the right track.

Tengu_temp
2013-09-04, 08:45 PM
Of course there's more to do than just combat. But most of the non-combat stuff is either:
1. Done by a single character as a single roll.
2. Done by a single character alone, while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and waits for it to be over so they can return to group activities already.
3. Something that's just roleplayed and without anything to do mechanically.

Combat is THE group action where everyone participates together, like it or not. It's a very rare game where that's not the case.

Seriously, the OP's friend knows and acknowledges that the character is way overpowered in comparison to everyone else. Why not tone him down a little? Play a non-minotaur fighter, or a minotaur cleric who will be less capable at combat but be able to provide the healing the group desperately needs instead.

navar100
2013-09-04, 08:54 PM
Not every combat, but in many combats have there be a big brute Mr. Strong gets to fight. It's what the player most likely wants. The big brute doesn't attack anyone else unless they foolishly get close and do something significant to hurt. Mr. Strong gets to feel like a bada$$ for defeating the brute. The rest of the party deals with the rest of the bad guys.

Scow2
2013-09-04, 08:55 PM
Of course there's more to do than just combat. But most of the non-combat stuff is either:
1. Done by a single character as a single roll.
2. Done by a single character alone, while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and waits for it to be over so they can return to group activities already.
3. Something that's just roleplayed and without anything to do mechanically.Right now, the party has two characters great at stealth an exploration. Keep exploration on a round-by-round, hidden-map level, with plenty for each character to do. While changing it to Minotaur Cleric might work better in terms of party roles, the current setup is not unworkable. However, it would probably require having the party split into two "Strike forces", that stick close enough together to operate in the same timescale and offer aid to each other, but operate in different 'spheres'.

If the party's not loaded up on combat except the minotaur, focus on the exploration and shenanigans they WERE planning on getting up to without the Rampaging Diversion/Gate-crasher.

Tengu_temp
2013-09-04, 09:05 PM
You assume that the other party members want a game with lots of exploration and shenanigans and very little combat. I think you're assuming too much.


Not every combat, but in many combats have there be a big brute Mr. Strong gets to fight. It's what the player most likely wants. The big brute doesn't attack anyone else unless they foolishly get close and do something significant to hurt. Mr. Strong gets to feel like a bada$$ for defeating the brute. The rest of the party deals with the rest of the bad guys.

End result: Mr Strong feels like the hero who killed the big, tough enemy and got the spotlight, everyone else feel like sidekicks who mopped up the mooks too unimportant for Mr Strong to handle. See why this is a bad idea?

Scow2
2013-09-04, 09:10 PM
You assume that the other party members want a game with lots of exploration and shenanigans and very little combat. I think you're assuming too much.

It's a bard, a thief, and a beastmaster. I figure if they wanted combat to be the major point, we'd be looking at Paladins, Rangers, and Fighters.

Tengu_temp
2013-09-04, 09:13 PM
It's a bard, a thief, and a beastmaster. I figure if they wanted combat to be the major point, we'd be looking at Paladins, Rangers, and Fighters.

Have you considered that they're newbies? Who don't realize their characters are bad at combat? Or that they want the game to include combat in addition to exploration and intrigue, instead of focusing entirely on the last two?

NichG
2013-09-04, 09:33 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that earlier editions are pretty punishing for getting into unnecessary fights. If you can avoid a fight, its almost always the better idea to do so.

That can make things a bit more like Shadowrun and a bit less like 3.5ed D&D. It tends to de-emphasize combat a little bit, or at least it makes the actual resolution of the fight secondary to arranging to be in the best position you can be when the fight breaks out.

That said, newbies will probably just rush in anyhow and get into a lot of trouble.

WarlockLord
2013-09-04, 09:56 PM
How about dropping more loot for the newbies? That way you can sneakily bring them up to the minotaur's power.

Explain what you're doing to your friend, of course.

GoblinGilmartin
2013-09-04, 10:57 PM
I just saw a bit of an argument break out here. I just wanted to point out that in AD&D, the different classes gain XP differently, the majority of XP comes from story advancement and class-specific achievements.

navar100
2013-09-05, 12:35 AM
You assume that the other party members want a game with lots of exploration and shenanigans and very little combat. I think you're assuming too much.



End result: Mr Strong feels like the hero who killed the big, tough enemy and got the spotlight, everyone else feel like sidekicks who mopped up the mooks too unimportant for Mr Strong to handle. See why this is a bad idea?

Who said the rest of the bad guys are mooks? The brute is simply a bad guy Mr. Strong warrior just like the PC. The PC thief/mage gets to have spell duels of a sort against bad guy spellcasters or use area-control spells. The beastmaster uses his pets to give the bad guys trouble. The PC bard gets to cast a few spells of his own. The thief/mage and bard can still cast spells against the brute, but the beastmaster would be wise to send his pets against other targets.

Lord Torath
2013-09-05, 10:02 AM
Also, nothing says the BRUTE needs to be the BBEG. In most stories, the Brute is not the BBEG, but one of his henchmen.

But, yeah, as Gilgamesh says, only a small portion of the XP will be from fights.

Jay R
2013-09-05, 10:28 AM
Fewer hit-point-eating traps, more magic effect traps (sleep, fatigue, slow, Hold, etc.)

Situations in which the strong guy must hold the bridge, or the boulder, while the others deal with the encounter.

More mysteries, social encounters, sneak situations.

And the occasional monster for him to crunch. Let him use it occasionally; it'll then be easier for him to stand back and let others shine.

Scow2
2013-09-05, 11:10 AM
And the occasional monster for him to crunch. Let him use it occasionally; it'll then be easier for him to stand back and let others shine.

Even better is letting him do Fighter Things while the others are doing Bardic or Wizard-Thief things (Instead of being forced to be sub-par at doing Fighter things because the Fighter's not up to snuff to handle his job alone)

paddyfool
2013-09-05, 12:14 PM
Quest idea: infiltrate an enemy fortress to rescue a prisoner. Fortress leader is a combatant way above their pay grade, so they have to be sneaky.


- Beastmaster can find a way in by sending pets to scout

- Once inside, the thief/mage and bard can handle fast talking and getting around obstacles, and the beastmaster continues to scout via minions, while the minotaur poses as a big brutish minion of the evil guy and eliminates suspicious/inconvenient guards now and then.

- Prisoner found, stuff goes wrong, they have to run/cut a way to escape. Way in blocked off, but the prisoner thinks they know a quick way out. Minotaur plays key role in clearing the road.

- Final scene: Minotaur, beastmaster & pets must hold off a horde of enemies while the others have to solve a puzzle-trap to enable everyone to escape.

-
EDIT:

- What to do if they screw up: Party gets captured. Cue internal plot where a couple of different factions in the fortress offer them ways out, in exchange for screwing over other factions (taking information back with them that's damaging to X, or assassinating Y, etc.). One faction could even be minotaurs/represented by a minotaur if that's setting appropriate, giving the big brute a role in what otherwise favours the talky guys.

- What to do if/when they get out: Fleeing the fortress with enemies not far behind, they have to find ways to throw them off the scent etc., and also fight off such scouts of the enemy as catch up to them. All party members can excel at this. And maybe they might even try and take a shortcut through a dungeon crawl while on the run...


It's a bit of a basic & generic railroad skeleton as written, but it should work well enough as a starting point. To upgrade it, consider breaking it up into scenes with multiple potential routes between them etc.

SethoMarkus
2013-09-05, 02:39 PM
Have you considered that they're newbies? Who don't realize their characters are bad at combat? Or that they want the game to include combat in addition to exploration and intrigue, instead of focusing entirely on the last two?

Have you considered that maybe the newbie characters specifically wanted an intrigue and exploration style campaign and that is why they are playing scout-type characters in a 2e system?

We don't know the exact details, so rather than attacking other peoples' ideas, just bring up helpful advice. You bring up a great point that the DM shouldn't focus on only mystery and stealth- trivializing combat still does not solve the issue that there is a player more dedicated to combat than the other players. However, applying this logic to other areas comes up with similar problems unless everyone plays the same character. If you have one rogue in an otherwise all fighter party, do you trivialize stealth or tell the rogue to re-roll since not everyone can sneak well? If you have one spellcaster in an otherwise all mundane party, do you constantly throw anti-magic fields around since the mundanes can't cast magic?

No. You try to find a balance. As long as each player is contributing to the story and each player is having fun, I don't really see the issue if the campaign is more combat focused, more intrigue and exploration focused, or more social/political focused. Yeah, maybe the newbie players don't want a stealthy, exploration, mystery and intrigue filled campaign. But, maybe they do.