Custom Items, 3 Questions?

[ManInOrange]

The issue of how to work these kinds of things into my campaign (or my own characters' inventories) has arisen more than once, so it's about time I ask about trying to generalize them. I understand that these things can't necessarily be generalized, but some good rules of thumb would help me loads. I'm not that experienced with judging balance, and I'm a mathematician, so formulas are perfect.

1) How do you put a price tag on weapon enhancements? The DMG pg 285 has that handy chart for spell effects, but there aren't any good guidelines regarding effects akin to the Flaming enhancement, scaling when more bonuses are stacked on.

Example:
I have a player who wants an axe with the effect of slowing his enemies. The MIC has a nice example, Slow Burst, but it only triggers on critical hits, and he doesn't want it to function only X times per day. Further, even at 30000, it seems overpowered to Slow opponents for 5 rounds with a DC of 14 every time they're hit. It's almost as good as a save-or-lose, and further, it would cripple my ability to throw boss monsters at the party. This in addition to the fact that it would basically require a +4 (I guess?), and that's outside of his budget.
One round after each hit would be more manageable, but then I don't know what a good price would be, and it would still probably be outside of his budget.

2) Given magic items that prompt saves, how do you typically adjust the price to prompt higher saves?

Example:
I have a player who wanted Tanglefoot bags that force higher than a DC 15 Reflex save. What's a good rule of thumb for increasing that DC and still maintaining a reasonable level of balance?
I know it's not a magic item, but I've had similar questions before regarding the Mirror of Suggestion and the pipes of pain.

3) How did Wizards (of the Coast) determine the price of enchanted arrows?

Example:
I basically want to throw a villainous Hawk Eye at my players, with a few arrows of standard enhancement (+1, fire; +1, dislocator), but I also want him to have arrows of exhaustion, similar to Ray of Exhaustion. The problem is that, according to DMG 285, such a single use item would be 750 gp, or 600 if you treat it as a continuous weapon enhancement and divide by 50. This simply doesn't make sense when you line it up with the price of a sleep arrow, at 132.
(This is fairly important because it is also serving as a means of giving some much-needed love to the only player that uses a bow. I don't want him to become overpower, though, and I also don't want to drop too much wealth from one villain. Also, this villain is the realization of one of my previous characters from before I realized that archery is underrepresented in the game :smallannoyed:, so this is personal.)

Thanks in advance for whatever suggestions you make.
Oh, and also, player wealth is right about average for their level, which is averaging 8-9 at this point, in case that factors in.

[Mnemnosyne]

To put a price on things, especially something as varied as weapon enhancements, I'd say it's necessary to look at just how useful that thing can possibly be under optimal conditions and then consider the price accordingly.

If we're talking about a melee weapon enhancement, picture the usefulness of this property when applied to a spiked chain, in the hands of someone Large, who can whirlwind attack, hitting every opponent within a 20 ft. radius. The example you gave is very powerful since it's on every attack and not limited in number of times per day. Applying a slow effect every time the target is hit if they fail a save is, I think, worth at least a +5 bonus, if not even more, to be honest. It's pretty much a save-or-lose on every hit.

[Fouredged Sword]

The best way I find to price things is comparrisons to things that already exist. Lets take the slow effect.

Say we homebrew the effect as whenever the weapon hits a target they make a willsave (DC 10 + Cha mod of wielder) or be slowed for 1 round.

Compare that to +1 enhancements. Would you take this if you where given a choice of it or any +1 enhancement? If you say YES, always, it's too good for +1. If you say NO, I would always take some other enhancement, it's too weak. If you say maybe, depends on outside factors, then you hit about the right balance.

Now personally, eyeballing it, I would allow the above as a +2 enhancement. It is better than almost all +1 enhancements, and the ease of application makes it good, but the low save and short duration means it is something I would consider taking Holy over, based on the character's charisma and the campaign.

[ManInOrange]

Now personally, eyeballing it, I would allow the above as a +2 enhancement. It is better than almost all +1 enhancements, and the ease of application makes it good, but the low save and short duration means it is something I would consider taking Holy over, based on the character's charisma and the campaign.

You're referring to the weapon that inflicts Slow for only one round, right?

And to both of you, is eyeballing it really the only way to figure this out? There's not something resembling a formula anywhere? Even DMG pg 285 is better than nothing...

[Fouredged Sword]

The advice given is to eyeball it with some guidelines. really, there is no better way.

I was referring to the slow for one round with save I detailed in my post. It prevents retaliation, and can force multiple saves for a high chance of effect.

[Barstro]

And to both of you, is eyeballing it really the only way to figure this out? There's not something resembling a formula anywhere? Even DMG pg 285 is better than nothing...

The DMG is a guideline. There are a lot of effects that just don't work in the formula. Things that are cheap because they work for only one round become very broken when made permanent. Save-or-Slow for four rounds is pretty broken. I'd say that Save or Slow five times a day could wind up broken if fights last only five rounds or so, and you only have a few fights a day where it even matters.

See how using the formula would allow for a +20 on all hits for about 2,000 gp, when it should really cost 400,000 gp. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a)

Were I DM and were I to allow this weapon (unlikely), you can be certain that the BBEG would have heard stories about this fighter and his weapon, and would have prepared in such a way that this effect would be negated. The result would be a weapon that simply has a very low +to-hit.


I also want him to have arrows of exhaustion, similar to Ray of Exhaustion. The problem is that, according to DMG 285, such a single use item would be 750 gp

Get whatever item/spell causes the quiver to replenish arrows. That 750gp single arrow has now become infinite. Not sure it works on magic arrows, but you can find some mundane way to have arrows work.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would look for an exhaustion poison personalty. It would likely be cheaper and more rules friendly. Remember, you can poison arrows any time and they stay poisoned until used.

[Saidoro]

A single +1 Spell-Storing arrow is 160 GP. You can make pretty much whatever crazy arrows you want for that price.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1) For that specific example, check out the Sudden Stunning property in DMG2. In general, I'd use the Use-Activated with charges per day price of Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 gp / (5/daily limit). Always use the daily limit calculation, and presume everything is 5/day by default instead of at will by default.

2) Saving throws for magic item effects are always at a DC of 10 + Spell Level + 1/2 Caster Level, rounded down. For a higher DC, you give it a higher caster level.

3) A Sleep Arrow should be priced at spell level x caster level x 50 gp for single use, use activated. Look at the cost to create one, it's always 1/2 base magic price + full base weapon price in gp, and 1/25 base magic price in xp. It costs 5 xp, making it 125 gp base magic cost, leaving 7 gp base weapon price. The gp cost to create it is exactly (125/2)+7 gp, so the magic price is 125 gp. The base magic price of a single +1 arrow is 40 gp (2,000/50), so the sleep portion is 85 gp per arrow. This is 70% higher than the standard 50 gp for single use, use activated. This is most likely due to the fact that Sleep has a 1 round casting time, you say you're casting it and the spell completes after everyone else has taken another turn. Compare that to instantly firing an arrow and even firing multiple sleep arrows in a single round, an that's why they marked up the effect's price by 70%. For spells with a standard action casting time, I'd probably make it a 30-40% increase on the standard single use, use activated price, plus the price of the +1 arrow.

[ManInOrange]

Things that are cheap because they work for only one round become very broken when made permanent. Save-or-Slow for four rounds is pretty broken. I'd say that Save or Slow five times a day could wind up broken if fights last only five rounds or so, and you only have a few fights a day where it even matters.

Yeah... we talked about it and it's going to be one round per hit at a +2 bonus. He still likes it at that level, so I suppose I'm happy about that.


Get whatever item/spell causes the quiver to replenish arrows. That 750gp single arrow has now become infinite. Not sure it works on magic arrows, but you can find some mundane way to have arrows work.

What item might that be, or are you proposing another custom item ...which I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to.... ?

[Barstro]

What item might that be, or are you proposing another custom item ...which I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to.... ?

Probably considered custom. It's something from pathfinder that I assumed was ported from 3.5. Appears that I was wrong.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition

[prufock]

1) For that specific example, check out the Sudden Stunning property in DMG2. In general, I'd use the Use-Activated with charges per day price of Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 gp / (5/daily limit). Always use the daily limit calculation, and presume everything is 5/day by default instead of at will by default.
I agree. For a use-activated version, I'd consider using the multiplier for continuous items. At rounds/level, a use-activated weapon of slow would be 120000!


2) Saving throws for magic item effects are always at a DC of 10 + Spell Level + 1/2 Caster Level, rounded down. For a higher DC, you give it a higher caster level.
Tanglefoot bags, though, are alchemical, and I'm not aware of any ability that lets you increase the DC. I find it odd that the epic use of craft: alchemy doesn't include a DC-raising option. Maybe use that rule and increase the DC by 1 or 2 for every level of augmentation?

[Toliudar]

More eyeballing - I'd think that a +2 DC increase in the tanglefoot bag would be more or less equivalent to the +2 bonus on a skill item. Consider adding 50gp to the cost of each bag. Expensive, but within range of a level 8-9 character. And if tanglefoot bags are still your best combat option at that level, you could use a break.