New respect for Merf's Acid Arrow

[IsaacTheHungry]

It used to be that I thought Merf's Acid Arrow spell was under powered. My brother just had the conversation a few days ago. For example at the same level is Scorching Ray, a spell I find a bit overpowered

This Has Changed

Looking it over one last time I noticed something, something that no other low or even mid-level spell could do in the players Handbook

Touch attack, No Save AND No Spell resistance

the other low and mid level (and a lot of high level) direct attack (or any other way of damaging) spells would either have a save or a spell resistance. so if you are against something with high saves and spell resistance (like a drow), most Arcane caster can't do much. it will save vs or use SR vs most of their spells. all you could use is summoning spells. if what you are facing had DR and/or high Natrual armor as well, all you could do is buff the Party... OR spam Acid arrows. the only thing that stops them is acid resitance and a high touch AC.

Thoughts?

[The Glyphstone]

It allows no save and no spell resistance.

It also does 2d4 damage/round for 2 rounds when you get it, and an extra 2d4 damage for every 3 levels after that.

A wizard will, assuming a non-negative Con score, be gaining hit points faster than his Acid Arrow will be increasing damage, and wizards have the slowest HP gain in the game. This means AA starts off with bad damage and gets worse every single level-up relative to your enemies. Its best use is delivering on-damage metamagic effects like Fell Drain, which will raise its level. The number of enemies for whom AA is the only effective answer is so small that you're better off shooting a crossbow - use those spell slots on more generally-effective spells instead.

[Greenish]

Touch attack, No Save AND No Spell resistanceYes, that's why people use orbs.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, that's why people use orbs.

And outside of core, there are of course orbs. Remember that OP was using Scorching Ray as a baseline, so they might not even be aware of the deliciousness that is the Orb of X line.

[Emperor Ing]

Twin (Split Ray?) Repeating Acid Arrows can make for some pretty lulsy ongoing damage for particularly tough opponents :smallbiggrin:

But yeah. For blasting, stick with the Orbs from Complete Arcane. I recommend Orb of Fire for the additional Dazing for One Round effect (save does negate) with Energy Substitution (Acid or if your DM allows it Sonic) because an enormous amount of monsters, especially late game, have fire resistance/immunity.

[GilesTheCleric]

Don't forget that Melf's Acid Arrow is also from the conjuration school rather than evocation (same as the orb spells), so even in core you can ban evocation and still do a little blasting if you feel like it.

[lsfreak]

Yes but. Compare with the 1st-level orb spells, which are a level lower and do about the same average damage, but it does it all the same round (though at Short range). The 4th-level orb spells, being 4th level, are as-expected much better than both.

Unless I'm actually playing in the 3rd-4th level range (and so really want the survivability), or using acid arrow as a rider for Fel Drain, I really can't see a reason I'd pick it over the 1st level orbs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, to summarize: it's situationally useful in a core-only game, but there are stronger options that fill the same niche, and more besides.

[IsaacTheHungry]

I know about the orbs. the thing is, i have played in games with newer DMs that only let you use spells from books he has and he didn't have the complete arcane. I have also play with DMs who think complete arcane is overpowered and don't allow anything from it.

so in these situations lets look a a 2 level rogue/wererat drow. and your tank is a two-weapon finess ranger. he can't get over the DR, High AC (Armor+NA) if you dont have a weapon that does elemen damage (and you only have one silver dagger in the party). you are in trouble. if you spam acid arrows you ignore DR, Armor, Natural Armor. true you dont have a high to hit bonusbut if it is wearing a chain shirt you ignore 7AC. First turn you do 2d4 (2-8) damage, next turn you hit again 2d4 from this and 2d4 from lingering spell. 4d4= 4-16 per turn at range is nothing to sneeze at. (and if you are 6th lvl it will to out at 6d4 (6-24) per turn if you hit three turns in a row. the low Hit points of the drow wererat will be its doom

[Chronos]

It's not the only damage spell with no save, no SR, and only a touch attack: Acid Splash does the same thing two levels lower. The damage sucks, of course, but it works just as well as a vehicle for metamagic like Fell Drain.

Melf's used to be tremendously useful, back in 2nd edition, for shutting down enemy spellcasters, since the ongoing damage made it impossible to concentrate. But that was before Wizards, in their infinite wisdom, decided that it was unacceptable for spellcasters to face any limitations whatsoever.

[Trinoya]

Acid arrow is an underrated spell (imho). Check out its range. Great for sniping those mook watch guards when sneaking around, or hitting that wizard hiding across the battlemap who are trying to cast bigger spells.


Yeah, it's not an orb, and it's no scorching ray for the damage, but at the end of the day, like so many spells, it all depends on the situation.

Oh, and as someone else mentioned, you can do some metamagic lolz with it since its such a low level spell.

[Greenish]

The use for Acid Arrow. (http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-5-13/)

[Karnith]

I have also play with DMs who think complete arcane is overpowered and don't allow anything from it.
For reference, the Orb spells also appear in the Spell Compendium, and the Lesser Orbs appear in the Miniatures Handbook under slightly different names.

(Split Ray?)
Acid Arrow, not being a ray, can't benefit from Split Ray, so that's out.

[lsfreak]

Acid Arrow, not being a ray, can't benefit from Split Ray, so that's out.

Well, a lot of people seem to let orbs be split even though it's not RAW, and if you're going to do that, there's no reason acid arrow wouldn't be able to as well.

[Segev]

Interestingly, Extend Spell is a +1 metamagic feat that doubles the damage Melf's Acid Arrow does. This is not typical for that particular metamagic feat.

If you're usually a buff-focused caster who enjoys that feat (not sure that it's actually good enough at extending buffs to really be worth it, but if so), this spell becomes one you can use for damage for a relatively cheap increase to its CL without needing any other metamagic feats to dedicate. Or which you could use the Extend Spell metamagic rod on in a pinch.

Not sure this really makes it good, but it's a quirk.

Compared to a Fireball at 5d6 burst... an Extended acid arrow is 2d4 damage per round for 4 rounds, or 8d4 total. 17.5 average damage from the fireball (assuming no save) and 20 average damage from the acid arrow (assuming a hit). Max damage is also higher for the arrow. So the Extended Acid Arrow is slightly better against a single target than a Fireball. Obviously, for groups, the Fireball just wins. Unless the targets have evasion.

[Fax Celestis]

Acid arrow seems like it'd get a lot more mileage out of someone with a bucket of sneak attack. Actually, a wizard/rogue/daggerspell mage (that's probably the worst way into daggerspell mage, but bear with me) with Invocation of the Knife could make acid arrow pretty cool. Touch attack sneak attack, 4d4+sneak attack, half acid, half slashing, plus some extra damage the next turn. Use it with Maiming Strike for CHA damage, Hamstring to lock someone down, or Bleeding Attack to stack on some more recurring damage.

PS: Extend Spell increases the duration of acid arrow fairly well. Extended acid arrow lasts minimum four rounds (since it's a 2nd level slot and you get 1 rd + 1 rd/3 lev, so I guess it's minimum two rounds until you hit 4th level), and empowered extended acid arrow, a fourth level slot, lasts minimum 6 rounds and deals 3d4 acid per round. Not amazing, but not terrible either.

The tl;dr is that acid arrow really starts to shine when you start tossing metamagic on it. Chain, Extend, Repeat, Fell Drain, Twin, Violate, and Wounding are all great candidates. I am particularly fond of violate wounding acid arrow. Half the damage is vile damage and they take an additional point of damage every turn thereafter. Ask your DM if Violate Spell applies its 'half damage is now vile damage' to Wounding Spell's bleed effect (in my reading, yes, since the bleed is part of the spell's effects).

That said, acid arrow isn't the best metamagic carrier: there are better spells, but it's not the worst.

[Gemini476]

At level six, Melf's Acid Arrow does 2d4/turn for three turns, or 6d4 damage. That's a bit below third level spells like Fireball. If you extend it, however, and cast it from a third level slot? 12d4 damage, or an average of 30. It takes six turns, longer than most combats, but in a core environment it beats out most other spells at level 1-3 for damage.

Except Explosive Runes. Explosive Runes always wins.

[Segev]

Sadly, with the exception of Empower or Maximize, I can't think of any "needs something to ride" damage sources that would apply after the first round. If there were, Acid Arrow would be amazing for them.

[Fax Celestis]

Sadly, with the exception of Empower or Maximize, I can't think of any "needs something to ride" damage sources that would apply after the first round. If there were, Acid Arrow would be amazing for them.

Violate is pretty nice.

[Segev]

What's it actually do?

[Karnith]

What's it actually do?
A Violated spell deals half of its damage normally, and half of it as vile damage. So each time a Violated Acid Arrow deals damage, it would deal 1d4 points of acid damage and 1d4 points of vile acid damage.

[Greenish]

What's it actually do?Turns half of the damage Vile.

Coercive Spell would also work, in that it calculates the duration from when the target was damage by the spell.

[Segev]

Ah. That could work.

Fire-subbed Acid Arrow + Fiery Spell would also be +2 damage per round.


Occular Spell cheese to make it have a fixed range so it can be Persisted would be an...unkind...thing to do. It'd be level 8, though.