[PF] What feat for Witch's fifth level?

[Barstro]

I have my Witch mapped out, but I'm not sure what to do at fifth level.

Presently, she has;
HEXES; Cackle, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Slumber
FEATS; Improved Initiative, Extra Hex (Cackle), Accursed Hex

She will get;
6) Flight Hex
7) Improved Familiar
8) ? Tongues Hex
9) ? Persistent Spell Feat
10) Agony Hex
11) Split Hex Feat

I'm not certain about 8th or 9th level, but I have a bit of time to see how the game is going.

The DM is pretty easy going, and would allow me to grab pretty much anything. So, I could probably convince him to let me take Ability Focus to give a +2 to all Hex saves. But I think that's just unfair. Maybe I'll change my mind if he makes the combats harder, but so far it's smooth sailing.

Options as I see them;
a) Take Improved Initiative so I don't lose my obscene bonus after I get a different familiar at L7.
b) Take Craft Wands to make a wand of Ill Omen for my Improved Familiar at L7 and make healing wands
c) Take some other Craft
d) Take Extra Hex so I can get Flight now, and find some other Hex at 6
e) Take a Third-Party Feat of some kind (either +1 on Hex saves (that, at least, seems fair), or affecting Undead
f) Take Extra Hex – Healing so I can damage undead and help out healing a bit

I'm about done with "good" hexes, so I'd prefer to not use a Feat to take a hex now and basically lose out on a feat later.

Any suggestions?

[Tokuhara]

My mantra for Witch feats:

When in doubt, Extra Hex. I bet there's at least one Hex at that level that you can use

[NightbringerGGZ]

Do you use your spells much? Spell Focus to boost DCs is never a bad option.

Since you've picked up most of the debuffing hexes and plan on picking up the utility hexes soon, why not grab some of the buffs? Ward is never a bad choice and Healing Hex can be useful. Fortune + Cackle can be fun too.

[graeylin]

extra hex is always good at lower levels.

[Perseus]

Well at first level be a human and take racial heritage (orc) and be a scarred witch doctor? Con to casting and hexes makes Racial Heritage the best feat for a witch...

But outside that... Take anything to boost your DCs and you can only slightly go wrong with Extra Hex.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ability Focus would be +2 to a specific hex's save DC. Like Slumber. Not all hexes. Each hex is its own Su, Ex, or Sp ability.

As for feats...have you even considered any metamagic feats? You are a full caster, not just a hexer. You have Persistent Spell listed, and that is amazing. You could also consider Silent, Extended, or Bouncing. Depending on what spells you got from patron, Dazing can be really good if you have the blasting spells to use it on. Reach Spell offers a lot of versatility, too. When in doubt, yeah, Imp. Init never hurts. Flyby Attack is also really good, though incompatible with using Cackle. If you have Cha 13+, Evolved Familiar is nice.

Other good hexes are Fortune (so long as the DM lets you cackle to keep it going for an hour or so to actually get a lot of use out of it; you can jog for an hour w/o making a check, laughing isn't a stretch) and Prehensile Hair (safely deliver touch spells). Scar and Coven have very specific, very powerful uses, but most likely are not useful to you.

I do not suggest Agony at 10th level. It's really pretty weak (new save to end it each round; not even Slumber or Misfortune have that clause); Ice Tomb and Retribution are much better.

[Barstro]

Ward is never a bad choice and Healing Hex can be useful. Fortune + Cackle can be fun too.

I somehow never noticed ward. Can a Witch use it on herself? (clearly stated that it does not)

I like Fortune, but it can only be used once per day on a person, and only works for one roll per round (even with Cackle), AND the PC doesn't reroll a failure, he must choose before the first roll is made. I would have picked it up already if a party member was using more summonings.


Ability Focus would be +2 to a specific hex's save DC. Like Slumber. Not all hexes. Each hex is its own Su, Ex, or Sp ability.

I wondered if that were the rule. Didn't seem clear to me. I want my Witch to stay more versatile, so I prefer to not boost single hexes.


As for feats...have you even considered any metamagic feats? You are a full caster, not just a hexer.

I have considered metamagic feats. Given how rarely I cast spells, I think that using rods would be the way to go for now. I'll probably get the feats later on, when I have spells that cannot be used by minor rods. While I am a full caster, my hexes are so useful in battle that I rarely have a reason to use spells. But I do use them a lot outside of combat.


If you have Cha 13+, Evolved Familiar is nice.

I like that one, but do not have 13 Cha. Mildly off topic; if I wear a +4 Cha item for 24 hours and take the feat, does my familiar still get the benefit if I lose the item later? I know that the PC would not get the benefit of the feat, but I'm not sure if the Feat gets to count towards the familiar instead. By RAW, I believe the feat is lost until Cha goes up again.


Other good hexes are Fortune (so long as the DM lets you cackle to keep it going for an hour or so to actually get a lot of use out of it; you can jog for an hour w/o making a check, laughing isn't a stretch) and Prehensile Hair (safely deliver touch spells). Scar and Coven have very specific, very powerful uses, but most likely are not useful to you.

I personally have ruled that I would not use Fortune like that. For backstory reasons, I will not get hair (but my improved familiar at L7 will be touching a lot). I like Scar, but I have also ruled that I will not use its cool tricks.

I will consider delaying Agony and taking Ice Tomb and Retribution sooner. They are both already in my build list.

Thank you, all. You have given me more to think about.

[jaybird]

I'm always a fan of Improved Initiative on full-caster builds, and try to get it in before level 5.

[Psyren]

Fortune and Ward work well with summons. Very few have deflection bonuses so the AC tends to help, and because you're summoning new creatures each time you won't run into the daily limit.

Summons are also very handy in fights where your Hexes and other spells will be less useful, e.g. when you're facing off against Undead, Constructs, Oozes or Plants.

[Barstro]

Fortune and Ward work well with summons. Very few have deflection bonuses so the AC tends to help, and because you're summoning new creatures each time you won't run into the daily limit.

Summons are also very handy in fights where your Hexes and other spells will be less useful, e.g. when you're facing off against Undead, Constructs, Oozes or Plants.

All true. But, I'm not wasting my time with summons, as I have other things to be doing. The Summoner keeps his eidolon out, so he doesn't summon much either.

I have ruled out Healing, as I expect to take Major Healing later. Also, I have enough Hex spots to take all the hexes I need, so I don't need to waste a Feat spot on them.

Right now, I'm leaning towards Bouncing Spell. There are some decent L2 spells that will work on undead, and that will help ensure that the spell effects someone.

[Psyren]

All true. But, I'm not wasting my time with summons, as I have other things to be doing.

Most of the time yes, but as I mentioned, some fights put a lot of strain on the Witch list and your hexes alike. Having a summon or two prepped can never hurt, and thanks to Fortune/Ward, you can even use weaker summons as effective speedbumps.

[Arbane]

From my own limited experience, Ward gets less useful at higher levels, as most allies will already have bonuses to AC and saves.

If you fight a lot of undead, consider getting Spell Focus (Necromancy) as the first step towards getting the Threnodic Spell metamagic - without it, Misfortune is pretty much the only thing you have that works on undead. :smallfrown: (Also, it boosts Bestow Curse, which is the Swiss-Army Sledgehammer of debuffs.)

[Psyren]

If you expect a lot of undead, consider also the excellent Gravewalker archetype. This will also save you a hex on Prehensile Hair since Gravewalkers can deliver touch spells and touch hexes at range.

[Barstro]

If you expect a lot of undead, consider also the excellent Gravewalker archetype. This will also save you a hex on Prehensile Hair since Gravewalkers can deliver touch spells and touch hexes at range.

Concerning this as other good archetype ideas; I am already level four, and am simply figuring out what to do at level five. I already chose to not have an archetype.

At this point, I have no reason to expect a lot of undead.

[Psyren]

Concerning this as other good archetype ideas; I am already level four, and am simply figuring out what to do at level five. I already chose to not have an archetype.

As a matter of fact, there are rules for that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining#TOC-Archetype) actually, but it's your decision.

Flight actually isn't as good a hex as it seems - by the time you can fly with it, you already have the spell, and in 4 levels you get Overland Flight. You may want to swap this hex out for one that you were going to get via Extra Hex, and then get another feat entirely. (Or you could just bump all your Extra Hexes up to earlier in your career.)

[Barstro]

I like Flight due to the free Feather Fall and the fact that I see my Witch needing to get out of melee when things get messy. I'd rather use a "free" hex and keep a nice offensive spell prepared than use up a spell slot with Fly and be lacking said offensive spell. But it is something to consider.

[Psyren]

I like Flight due to the free Feather Fall and the fact that I see my Witch needing to get out of melee when things get messy. I'd rather use a "free" hex and keep a nice offensive spell prepared than use up a spell slot with Fly and be lacking said offensive spell. But it is something to consider.

Hexes known are more valuable than slots though, and feats are more valuable than either (since feats can get you both, and more besides.) Again, it's your choice, but you did ask for recommendations. And note that once you hit a certain level, you'll probably be using Overland Flight anyway (since with it, you can take to the air at any time, all day long) which means the Flight Hex may end up completely redundant or unused after level 9+. If you're planning ahead therefore, Flight isn't as attractive as it seems at first.

[Barstro]

you'll probably be using Overland Flight anyway (since with it, you can take to the air at any time, all day long) which means the Flight Hex may end up completely redundant or unused after level 9+.

Excellent point. Thank you for the continued explanation. It does make the hex a bit less useful, since I'd use it for only three levels or so.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Flight is still useful after level 9. It can't be dispelled and it's better flight than Overland Flight gives. Is it absolutely necessary by that point? No. Are there really so many great low level hexes that by level 9, on the verge of getting major hexes, you'll be kicking yourself for having flight instead of another one of the other hexes? I doubt it.


I like Fortune, but it can only be used once per day on a person, and only works for one roll per round (even with Cackle), AND the PC doesn't reroll a failure, he must choose before the first roll is made. I would have picked it up already if a party member was using more summonings.

Yeah, it's not used after the fact to for-sure undo a bad roll, but roll 2d20 pick the higher is still a nice boon 1/round. It *is* super awful if you're only using it on someone for a single combat, I agree. You need to be able to keep it going between a few combats for it to be worth the hex known and the combat action (if you don't put it up before combat).

I really don't get why everyone thinks it's so cheesy to keep it up a while. Otherwise, it's only benefitting like 3 rolls per person, on average, and (as you mentioned) it may not even be needed on any of those rolls. There is a middle ground between "one 2-5 round combat, then it's gone!" and "24/7, I laugh in my sleep, baby!"

[Psyren]

Permacackle is something I really don't like myself. I'd rather alter the hex to be 3/day/person than have to deal with NPCs giving the cackling witch funny looks, ruining stealth missions etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Permacackle is something I really don't like myself. I'd rather alter the hex to be 3/day/person than have to deal with NPCs giving the cackling witch funny looks, ruining stealth missions etc.

I agree. But Paizo decided witches should be very happy people, I guess. It's even worse with the Charm hex. In order to use that for any decent duration at all, you have to keep on laughing, regardless of the social setting.

Witch in general is designed far too much towards some comical cartoonish villain type of witch that laughs all the time, smells children, toils over her cauldron, etc.. Even though actual PCs aren't going to be doing any of that, and it's not an NPC class.

[Psyren]

BBEGs use PC classes though, and a Witch shines in that role. Scar in particular has "you are now my mortal enemy" written all over it, and few PCs will be outright immune to her hexes.

Anyway, I'd say it was more a matter of getting the iconic witch stuff in there (sniffing kids, cooking people etc.) even if some a lot of it would be impractical for a player. Top-down design (concept -> mechanics) rather than bottom-up seems to be Paizo's MO.

[Barstro]

Thank you again for all the ideas. I played last night and tried to use spells more than hexes. Even consciously trying, hexes were needed more often. Due to that, I think all my metamagic will be through rods, and I'll get the craft feat at L9.

I think that I'm now down to;
Improved Initiative a second time,
Some hex (leaning towards flight, still)
See if DM will allow extra familiar (hopefully he'll see that it would be a mistake to allow that, but I'll give it a try).

[Dr. Yes]

Thank you again for all the ideas. I played last night and tried to use spells more than hexes. Even consciously trying, hexes were needed more often. Due to that, I think all my metamagic will be through rods, and I'll get the craft feat at L9.

I think that I'm now down to;
Improved Initiative a second time,
Some hex (leaning towards flight, still)
See if DM will allow extra familiar (hopefully he'll see that it would be a mistake to allow that, but I'll give it a try).

Feat bonuses don't stack with each other and you can't take multiple copies of the same feat unless specifically stated, so doubling up on Improved Initiative is a no-go.

How does your DM tend to handle wealth? If you get a lot of it in money form, Craft Wondrous Items is amazing.

I think the issue with your spells is that, at level 4, they really aren't that much more powerful than your hexes. A few powerful options aside (looking at you, Glitterdust), you'll be hard pressed to find a level 1 or 2 spell that beats dropping Misfortune on everything and cackling until your foes lay slain at your feet. At 5 you get some fun things like Stinking Cloud, Bestow Curse, and Ash Storm that present much more compelling choices for your in-combat actions.

[Psyren]

Flight isn't bad, it just wouldn't be my choice. If you want it so much by all means take it.

You should be using Hexes more often than spells - Spells are for when you're in the kind of fight where hexes won't be as effective.

As Dr. Yes, stated you can't take Improved Initiative twice.

Have you looked at Spell Hex? I like combining it with Ear-Piercing Scream myself, but Beguiling Gift, Command, and Web Bolt are other good options.



See if DM will allow extra familiar (hopefully he'll see that it would be a mistake to allow that, but I'll give it a try).

You know it's overpowered but you're going to ask anyway? :smallconfused:

[Barstro]

so doubling up on Improved Initiative is a no-go.

Huh. I swore I saw that it could be taken multiple times. But, you are correct. Thanks


Have you looked at Spell Hex? I like combining it with Ear-Piercing Scream myself, but Beguiling Gift, Command, and Web Bolt are other good options.

I looked, and didn't care for it. I'll look at it again with the spells you mentioned. Maybe more concrete examples will change my interpretation.

EDIT; I looked at it again. Can you explain how taking that feat is better than spending 1,500gp to have a party member craft three Pearls of Power? Other than possibly making the DC higher, it seems a lot less versatile.


You know it's overpowered but you're going to ask anyway?

That does seem to go against everything I said in earlier posts. I was just looking at it as a way weasel out of the difficult choice for Improved Familiar. Fine, fine, I'll toss that idea out the window.:smallredface:

[Psyren]

I looked, and didn't care for it. I'll look at it again with the spells you mentioned. Maybe more concrete examples will change my interpretation.

The main use for it is to change the save DC for a 1st-level spell into the save DC for a Hex - effectively, it is free Heighten up to your maximum spell level that doesn't cost you any spell slots. Because the spell is unlikely to be saved against as a result, some 1st-level spells become pretty powerful. Command for instance is a very versatile attack if you have a good chance of making them fail the save. Web Bolt and EPS are also handy because they aren't mind-affecting, and EPS has an effect even if the target makes the save. (Even on a successful save, EPS is likely to do more damage than a crossbow bolt.) Web Bolt in particular is useful because you can use it against creature types like undead and oozes that you'd normally have problems with, and you increase the DC not just of the original reflex save but also of the EA/Str check to escape. And since breaking free blows their standard action anyway, you get something useful out of it even if they escape right away.

I like spells that double as offense and defense, and all three of these do so.

Beguiling Gift is fun for shenanigans and has plenty of social uses, but if you can get them to fail a mind-affecting will save you may as well hit them with Slumber.

[Dr. Yes]

I looked at it again. Can you explain how taking that feat is better than spending 1,500gp to have a party member craft three Pearls of Power? Other than possibly making the DC higher, it seems a lot less versatile.

Don't discount the DC thing; that's its main selling point. You're making the spell 25% stickier by the time you qualify for the feat.

...Which, actually, you don't. The earliest you can take it is level 11.

You might consider picking up some +2 or higher metamagic feat and grabbing Additional Traits (Metamagic Master, Magical Lineage) for your go-to spell the next chance you get. My personal favorite use is a level 4 Dazing Fireball; you can come pretty close as a Witch with Lightning Bolt. Failing that, every spellcaster eventually benefits from Spell Penetration and Spell Focus (whatever school you use the most).

[Barstro]

You might consider picking up some +2 or higher metamagic feat and grabbing Additional Traits (Metamagic Master, Magical Lineage) for your go-to spell the next chance you get.

That's always in the back of my mind, but the fights haven't been difficult enough for me to need to optimize so well.

[Barstro]

Here's a question for cheese;

Would Spell Hex work with Quicken Spell Like Ability?

Now I'm leaning towards Spell Hex, just deciding on combat or out or combat spell.

[Psyren]

Here's a question for cheese;

Would Spell Hex work with Quicken Spell Like Ability?

Yep! You'd need to check with your DM whether the Quickened Spell Hexes count against your regular Spell Hex uses but otherwise it works.

[Barstro]

I don't see why it wouldn't count against it. Spell Hex is what turns a spell into a SLA hex. If it didn't do so, there would be no SLA for the Quicken SLA to affect.

But it seems like a cheesy way to get Ill Omen in the same round as Misfortune on the BBEG. About as cheesy as my plans on giving my future Fairy Dragon a wand of Ill Omen.:smallwink: