Optimizing Bigby's Hands

[Nettlekid]

Title says it all, really. I know that the Bigby's _____ Hand line is an underpowered set, but there's something very appealing about the idea of manipulating giant hands. I guess it stems back to games like Super Smash Bros, because Master Hand (and Crazy Hand) were just really cool. What build can make the best out of these spells? Maxing out their Bull Rush or Grapple to lock down foes, or (if possible) having them wield Colossal weapons (if a human hand is Diminutive and can wield a Medium weapon three sizes bigger, then surely a Large hand can wield a Colossal weapon three sizes bigger?) and so forth. I just think the visual is awesome, and would love to see if it can be done.

[rockdeworld]

The UPS Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208620) could work some good with these spells. Fell Frighten, Fell Drain, and your hand inflicts status effects in addition to whatever it normally does. Ask your DM if interposing hand can work that way if someone attacks it - the others deal damage by themselves.

[Nettlekid]

That would be kinda cool, but it doesn't really incorporate the hands. It's a neat strategy when that's what you're focused on, but if you want it to be the hands doing cool stuff, that aspect is a little wasted.

[Tokuhara]

I know it isn't purely the Hands of Bigby, but Argent Savant and Force Missile Mage when built on a caster based on Force spells in general can turn the Hands of Bigby into some seriously scary spells. My only point of added thought is to cross-class 1 rank in Truenaming (no, I'm not joking) for Bulwark of Reality (as good as Mage Armor, but so much cooler of a name) and requires you to know your own Truename

[Segev]

There's probably something that can be done with this aspect:
Nothing can fool the hand—it sticks with the selected opponent in spite of darkness, invisibility, polymorphing, or any other attempt at hiding or disguise.

It only has a round/level duration and you have to designate the opponent initially, which means that this only (normally) protects the Hand's capabilities from attempts to trick it mid-fight. But it's a perfect detection effect in its very narrow field. There may well be something that can be done of interest here.

For one thing, it IS visible, so you can always tell at least down to 2 options what square its target is in.

Now, if we can figure out a way to make it select its own targets, we might be able to use it to detect otherwise-hidden things.

[Crasical]

I know it isn't purely the Hands of Bigby, but Argent Savant and Force Missile Mage when built on a caster based on Force spells in general can turn the Hands of Bigby into some seriously scary spells. My only point of added thought is to cross-class 1 rank in Truenaming (no, I'm not joking) for Bulwark of Reality (as good as Mage Armor, but so much cooler of a name) and requires you to know your own Truename

Isn't Bulwark of Reality only minutes per level, as opposed to Hours?

[Xelbiuj]

Use it to control a giant marionette.

Or a ballista, siege weapons that use strength bonus would be great.

[Segev]

Use it to control a giant marionette.

Or a ballista, siege weapons that use strength bonus would be great.

I don't think these are RAW-legal uses of the spells.

[dysprosium]

Don't forget about Halaster's Shaking Hand from City of Splendors Waterdeep. It acts as interposing hand but can grapple other hand spells.

Caligarde's Claw from Player's Guide to Faerun creates an invisible claw that can attack or defend an opponent.

[nedz]

Twin Spell — one left, one right.

These spells have always been poor, I'm not sure there's much scope for optimising them other than: pick something else.

[mregecko]

I've always enjoyed Clenched Fist the most. The dazed condition isn't easy to get rid of, and it's pretty easy to daze-lock someone while still doing damage to them.

This was a favorite tactic of my shadowcraft mage / killer gnome I played in Living Greyhawk.

With the huge bonus to CL you get from Earth Spell, along with the DC boost from Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, etc...

You're cranking out some really high-DC (10+9th level+10 [stat] + 2 focus +1 gnome = 31+) fort saves that will pretty much always hit.

Now cast multiple!

[Segev]

It occurs to me that these are definitely valid targets for "Invisible Spell" metamagic. Grasping/Crushing Hand would thus catch many foes flat-footed.

[Venger]

Isn't Bulwark of Reality only minutes per level, as opposed to Hours?
Yes.

It occurs to me that these are definitely valid targets for "Invisible Spell" metamagic. Grasping/Crushing Hand would thus catch many foes flat-footed.
Assuming they lack spellcraft or similar methods of detecting you've cast a spell (components, etc)

[Segev]

Assuming they lack spellcraft or similar methods of detecting you've cast a spell (components, etc)

Maybe "flat-footed" was the wrong game-term. It would deny them their dex mod, in the same manner as an Invisible rogue would.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Spell to power erudite, using touchsight to see invisible enemies. Make the hands invisible and twinned. Cast the grappling one maximized to get a 20 on the variable of the grapple check making the DC crazy high (depending on how you interpret variable numeric effect of the spell). Suppose the same might go for bull rushing too. Maybe chain that and play patti cake with the enemies?

[Venger]

Maybe "flat-footed" was the wrong game-term. It would deny them their dex mod, in the same manner as an Invisible rogue would.

Invisible spell doesn't let you treat enemies as flat-footed if they weren't already flat-footed, or things like telekinesis would say "always treat the enemy as flat-footed because telekinesis is invisible" it just makes the effects of your spell invisible.

I think bigby's hands that deal damage count as weaponlike spells since they have an attack roll, so you can prolly apply SA, but I'm not really sure.

[Segev]

I'm mostly interested in denying them dex mod to AC.

Telekinesis is a separate discussion; it's possible that the force is detectable before it hits. Dunno.

[rockdeworld]

Spell to power erudite, using touchsight to see invisible enemies. Make the hands invisible and twinned. Cast the grappling one maximized to get a 20 on the variable of the grapple check making the DC crazy high (depending on how you interpret variable numeric effect of the spell). Suppose the same might go for bull rushing too. Maybe chain that and play patti cake with the enemies?
Now there's an idea, but forget spell-to-power Erudite, take Mindbender 1 and Incantatrix to add the metamagic for free. Make it persistent, and add the Fell Drain I mentioned above, and you've got a hand that can chase an enemy all day long and smack him with negative levels until he dies. Possibly use Enlarge Person and Mindwarp Staff to increase the range.

[Segev]

There's no way to apply Spellwarp Sniper's "turn it into a ray" class ability to Bigby's Hands, is there?