Level-efficient dragon-ogre? (3.5)

[LogosDragon]

Hey, all! Here to put in a fairly simple request today. I'm planning on making a fully legal-and-rolled DnD 3.5 fic (my motives don't matter in relevance to the question, so just ignore the fact that I'm doing something so very weird). I'm making a few opposing parties for the "PC" characters, them mains, and so, I'd like to know, including any well-made homebrew you could link me too, what is the most level-efficient race/template combination for something with the feel of a half-dragon, half-ogre, even if it doesn't necessarily use those races? And as an added difficulty, he needs to be able to weild weapons... Ah, the burdens of cinematic value. The most straightforward option (a half-dragon Ogre) is clearly out, as a single class level on that thing is already ECL 10. Ouch.

All help is appreciated! Thank you!

[angry_bear]

ECL isn't all that relevant for an enemy NPC. So long as it's CR is close enough to the party, it'll be fine. An ogre/half dragon is only CR 5. I can't remember how much of an increase class levels apply to it's challenge rating, and I don't have the DMG on hand to check.

[Greenish]

Dragonborn (RotD) Half-Ogre (Dragon #313/SS/RoD) is a large and potentially winged dragonblooded critter, and only clocks in at 1-2 LA (depending on the version of half-ogre).

[Xaktsaroth]

Half-Ogre(RoD) + Effigy(CA) + Incarnate Construct(SS) + Dragonborn(RotD) =

Large Size
Giant(Dragonblood) typing
+10 Str, –6 Dexterity, 4d6 + 2 Con, 4d6 Int, 11 Wis, 3 Cha
+6 NA
40 Base Speed
+Dragonborn goodies.

All for +0 LA.

You could also add Primordial Giant(SoX) inbetween IC and DB, but since it's an inherited template, your DM might frown.

Hope that helps.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want CR efficiency, the Dragonkin race in the Draconomicon is CR 3 and probably exactly what you're looking for. It's a large size, humanoid shaped creature with wings, and many draconic features. It could easily pass for an Ogre Half-Dragon, just give it some Dragonfire Adept levels (nonassociated at +1/2 CR each up to 7 levels, and it rounds down) for a breath attack and you're good. At Dragonfire Adept 8 it's CR 7, with a 4d6 breath attack at will and a huge Str and reach for AoOs. Throw in Entangling Exhalation for a very frustrating opponent that the party will probably try to focus on, making him a very fitting tank.

[Taveena]

Dragonborn does have to be good, though.

[Segev]

Sounds like this is supposed to be a "PC" in the OP's story, so would use PC rules.

What is your target level?

[LogosDragon]

These guys aren't exactly PCs in the strictest sense, but I wanted their ECL to generally match the party's (CR doesn't work as well because I want it to be an even match if both sides are at full strength, and CR is designed on the assumption of handling 4 of said fights in a day).

As for the target level, I was hoping to introduce these guys at around 6th level. Depending on the circumstances, I probably want them lasting as opponents until around... Oh, 16th level or so. That last part is fairly irrelevant, of course, but eh.

Xaksaroth, that is quite clever, but I don't particularly like the fact that that would be illegal were this, in fact, a PC. Thank you for the suggestion, though.

I'll probably just go with the simple Dragonborn Half-Giant, with wings. It doesn't quite fit the concept I had in mind, but it'll do. And yeah, using the SS Half-Ogre. I mean, what the heck's up with the copypasta with different LA?

Thanks for the help, everyone! (Hopefully nobody who reads my writing will care if I make him a bit more draconic appearance-wise than just being Dragonborn causes...)

[Xaktsaroth]

Xaksaroth, that is quite clever, but I don't particularly like the fact that that would be illegal were this, in fact, a PC. Thank you for the suggestion, though.

While I admit, I'm not my sharpest at 1am, I've looked over what I suggested and can't for the life of me find where it is illegal. Care to point it out for me?

[LogosDragon]

While I admit, I'm not my sharpest at 1am, I've looked over what I suggested and can't for the life of me find where it is illegal. Care to point it out for me?

I guess it depends on the DM, but the Effigy template has no listed Level Adjustment (and no, it's not "same as base creature", it is LA: -), meaning it's not allowed for player characters. Incarnate Construct, by RAW, does nothing about that, though once again this is based on the DM.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'd prefer this thread didn't turn into a RAW ruling debate. While I appreciate your idea, I think it works best for backstory purposes that the character isn't a former construct.

[Xaktsaroth]

I guess it depends on the DM, but the Effigy template has no listed Level Adjustment (and no, it's not "same as base creature", it is LA: -), meaning it's not allowed for player characters. Incarnate Construct, by RAW, does nothing about that, though once again this is based on the DM.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'd prefer this thread didn't turn into a RAW ruling debate. While I appreciate your idea, I think it works best for backstory purposes that the character isn't a former construct.

I also don't want to turn this into a RAW debate, but Effigy is LA - because it sets the Int lower then 3. Anything < 3 = NPC, however, IC gives back the Int to PC levels.

However, I won't press the matter further. *bows*

[LogosDragon]

I also don't want to turn this into a RAW debate, but Effigy is LA - because it sets the Int lower then 3. Anything < 3 = NPC, however, IC gives back the Int to PC levels.

However, I won't press the matter further. *bows*

Pssh, using basic reasoning to deduce a "because" in a RAW debate? How unrefined XD

All joking aside, I'm glad we came to a peaceful solution (even if said solution was "agree to disagree"). Have a good day, sir.

And thanks again to everyone who helped!

[Deaxsa]

why not make it up? who said you needed to follow all the rules for everything? just nerf the ogre/dragon to a point where it can have a similar amount of real levels, yet still be a challenge, and not have prohibitive LA/RHD. as long as the players are having fun, who cares how much you follow RAW? and if a player starts asking about why this thing which is "supposed to be ECL 16" is fighting them, tell them you made some changes so it'd me more appropriate. nothing wrong with going off-script, nothing at all.

i mean, you could even give it the stats of a human that leveled up to the point where it has the statistics you want it to have (maybe a human with the flying template or and being large size, and some natural armor.. all for +3 LA or so) and then just reskin it as a "dragon/ogre"

here's a template (in the worst format ever):
THINGY
inherited template
+3 la
+5 natural armor
fly speed, poor maneuverability, equal to 2x the creature's landspeed
+6 str, +4 wis, +2 con/cha
+1 size category(does NOT gain the "appropriate size increase changes")
maybe a breath weapon or some energy resistance to indicate dragon color? (just, don't use the half-dragon's breath weapon, 1/day abilities are usually pretty awful.. give it a weapon it can use.. say... every 1d4+2 rounds, that only does Xd6 damage, where x is 1/2 the creature's HD or something)

(that actually might be a bit on the OP side, but you get the point. go ahead and make your own thing up!)