[PF] Dirty Tricking Scimitar Duelist

[Da'Shain]

So for a new campaign that will, according to the DM, begin and stay in a large city for a while, I wanted to try something that I haven't actually done in years: a fully martial character. But I've always been partial to characters who can stand toe to toe with the normal plate-armored juggernaut type fighter, but do it by being faster and smarter. So I decided to try my hand at a blade bravo type of character, and actually, I feel like I'm coming close to where I wanna be while still retaining some skilled out of combat utility.

Through a combination of speed, fighting defensively, and abusing the heck out of combat maneuvers, I feel like this guy is going to be a tough match for most city denizens, at the very least. The build so far is Monk (Maneuver Master) 2 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 5 / Duelist 2, pumping Dex to the max and eschewing any form of armor to get Int and Wis to AC as well. In combat he closes as swiftly as possible to either disarm his opponent or greater dirty trick them. His full attacks are most often used with Combat Expertise up and using Flurry of Maneuvers to get another CM in each round while saving one of his normal attacks for a parry when the opponent, enraged by their helm being pulled over their eyes or their nads being sickeningly kicked, swings wildly back at him.

I'd appreciate any feedback/ideas people have, or simply stories of how similar characters have worked in their own campaigns. Thanks! Build follows:

Jereth, Dancing Master
LG Male Svirfneblin Fighter (Lore Warden) 5 / Monk (Maneuver Master) 2 / Duelist 2
Init +9; Senses Perception +18, Darkvision 120 ft, Low-Light Vision 60 ft

==DEFENSE==
AC 33, touch 31, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +7 dex, +1 deflection, +4 monk bonus, +8 dodge [+1 feat, +2 racial, +3 Crane Style, +2 duelist], +1 size)
hp 66 (7d10+2d8+9+5 [favored class Fighter])
SR 20
Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +12
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training (PFBty 261), Fortune (PFBty 261), Spell Resistance (PFBty 261), Canny Defense (PFCR 382), Evasion (PFCR 68), AC Bonus (PFCR 57), Combat Expertise -2 hit/+3 AC (PFCR 119), Parry (PFCR 383), Fight Defensively -2 hit/+3 AC (Crane Style), Crane Wing (deflect 1 melee attack/round while fighting defensively), Deflect Arrows

==OFFENSE==
Spd 20 ft/x4
Melee Scimitar +1 +18/+13 (1d4+11) 18-20/x2
Melee Unarmed Strike +17/+12 (1d4-2) 20/x2
Ranged Longbow +17/+12 (1d8-1) 20/x3
Special Attacks Hatred (PFBty 261), Unarmed Strike (PFCR 59), Monk Stunning Fist DC 18, 3/day (PFCR 59, 135), Weapon Training (Heavy Blades) +3 (PFCR 56), Precise Strike +2 (PFCR 383), Flurry of Maneuvers (PFUC 58-59)

==STATISTICS==
Str 7, Dex 25, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 3
BAB +8, CMB +18 (+22 Dirty Trick, +20 Trip), CMD +36 (+38 vs. Trip and Disarm, +40 vs. Dirty Trick, Sunder and fumble effects)
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118), Combat Expertise (PFCR 119), Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows (PFCR 122), Dervish Dance (PFCaS: ISWG 286), Dodge (PFCR 122), Greater Dirty Trick (PFAPG 161), Improved Dirty Trick (PFAPG 162), Improved Trip (PFCR 127), Improved Unarmed Strike (PFCR 128), Mobility (PFCR 130-131), Stunning Fist (PFCR 135), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136)
Skills Acrobatics +19, Appraise +7, Climb +2, Craft (weapons) +7, Disable Device +8, Escape Artist +11, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +7, Knowledge (religion) +10, Knowledge (planes) +7, Linguistics +7, Perception +18 (stonecunning), Perform (dance) +1, Profession (teacher) +8, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +25 (+27 underground), Survival +8, Swim +2
SQ Stonecunning (PFBty 261), Svirfneblin Magic (PFBty 261)
Traits Defensive Strategist (Religion: Torag) (PFCo: FoP 17), Threatening Defender (Combat) (PFCo: CEoD 19)
Languages

==Magic==
Eq'd Magic Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Gloves of Dueling, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance +1, Bracers of Armor +2, Quick Runner's Shirt

[Hashiel_Dammit]

Interesting and fun build. You may want to consider picking up Kirin Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-style-combat-style). The way I read it, it takes your standard action studying a creature from Lore Warden, and turns it into a swift action, which will later (if you pick up the rest of the style) let you add twice your Int to damage against an identified creature. Not sure about the final feat, though. It does fit the idea of a nimble fighter dancing around his opponents.

[Da'Shain]

Interesting and fun build. You may want to consider picking up Kirin Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kirin-style-combat-style). The way I read it, it takes your standard action studying a creature from Lore Warden, and turns it into a swift action, which will later (if you pick up the rest of the style) let you add twice your Int to damage against an identified creature. Not sure about the final feat, though. It does fit the idea of a nimble fighter dancing around his opponents.

Thanks! While Kirin Style does thematically fit what I'm going for, the two feats necessary to get to twice Int damage 1/round (which will be 6 a round for the foreseeable future, not bad but not that much) are a bit too much when I'm trying to make sure he has multiple options aside from damage. Also, Lore Warden's knowledge ability doesn't kick in 'til level 7 sadly, and I'm not sure it's worth taking the extra 2 Fighter levels in place of Duelist levels.

Also, in other peoples' experience, is Disarm worth the feat or should I just go with tripping? I figured any duelist worth their salt should be able to disarm opponents, but if it's mechanically pretty useless I'm not sure I want to bother with it.

[HylianKnight]

This is fantastic! I've always wanted to see a really good Duelist build, and this is the best I've seen yet.

One random point: the latest errata earlier this summer changed the Duelist Int-to-AC bonus into a Dodge bonus instead of adding it to your Dex Bonus. This means that Duelist no longer have the baffling necessity to forgo armor in order to get around the Dex-restrictions. So FYI, even though you probably wouldn't with anyway with the Monk levels.

In my own experience, Tripping is always greater than Disarming. I know the flavor for disarming is awesome, but really all the happens with Disarming is your opponent either pulls out a secondary weapon (and you can be sure the DM will adapt and make sure most foes worth their salt are prepared), or they withdraw from combat to get their weapon back (which then means you wasting the same movement if you want to continue attacking).

Tripping someone in the best case scenario means more attacks of opportunity and bonuses on attack rolls! Worst case it means dominance of the action economy as enemies spend whole turns just standing back up.

Finally: why Scimitar? As a martial-slashing weapon it doesn't qualify you for any of the Duelist's cool combat abilities (Damage, Parries, Ripostes, Combat Reflexes)

[Da'Shain]

This is fantastic! I've always wanted to see a really good Duelist build, and this is the best I've seen yet.Thanks! I actually came up with it on my own, but after I posted it I found that there is a Duelist Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xRicfKx_3l0G6C84gn8O3PjeMnMq3QnMsJ5_eJxCccM/edit?pli=1) by Oterisk for pathfinder that discusses most of what I did, and has some more interesting options besides, so take a look if you're interested.


One random point: the latest errata earlier this summer changed the Duelist Int-to-AC bonus into a Dodge bonus instead of adding it to your Dex Bonus. This means that Duelist no longer have the baffling necessity to forgo armor in order to get around the Dex-restrictions. So FYI, even though you probably wouldn't with anyway with the Monk levels.I also plan to be boosting my Dex, Wis and Int as much as possible and hopefully getting a Monk's Robe eventually ... plus I far prefer the fluff of him going into combat completely unarmored. I'm sure I could build him in such a way that it'd be better to just use armor, but ... not as much fun.


In my own experience, Tripping is always greater than Disarming. I know the flavor for disarming is awesome, but really all the happens with Disarming is your opponent either pulls out a secondary weapon (and you can be sure the DM will adapt and make sure most foes worth their salt are prepared), or they withdraw from combat to get their weapon back (which then means you wasting the same movement if you want to continue attacking).

Tripping someone in the best case scenario means more attacks of opportunity and bonuses on attack rolls! Worst case it means dominance of the action economy as enemies spend whole turns just standing back up. Yeah I've made Tripping builds before and they're undoubtedly great (until later levels at least) ... I just never bothered with Disarming much, with good reason apparently. Really, after discovering Greater Dirty Trick a few months ago, I just love using it as much as possible, so other CM feats are more backups.


Finally: why Scimitar? As a martial-slashing weapon it doesn't qualify you for any of the Duelist's cool combat abilities (Damage, Parries, Ripostes, Combat Reflexes)The feat Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) specifically makes a scimitar work with all duelist class features, as well as adds Dex to attack and damage (!). That and the great crit range meant that I didn't have to invest extra money into the weapon itself in order to be effective at the campaign's starting level of 9; even with a simple Scimitar +1 it looks like he'll be absolutely wrecking people and critting 1/4 of the time, while I could essentially dump Strength as my DM already ruled that Dervish Dance makes a scimitar usable with Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat).

[Da'Shain]

Also, has there been an official ruling on whether Weapon Finesse affects CMB or not? If it does, it makes Agile Maneuvers kind of worthless for this particular character.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would consider a 1 level dip in rogue and half-orc as the race for the Underhanded Maneuvers (Ex) ability to replace attacks within a full attack as dirty tricks or steal combat maneuvers (with a bonus).

This can be used to full attack a caster, blind them, take their component pouch, and sucker punch them all in one round.

[Da'Shain]

I would consider a 1 level dip in rogue and half-orc as the race for the Underhanded Maneuvers (Ex) ability to replace attacks within a full attack as dirty tricks or steal combat maneuvers (with a bonus).

This can be used to full attack a caster, blind them, take their component pouch, and sucker punch them all in one round.Already done with Maneuver Master's Flurry of Maneuvers; sure, it's done at -2 to hit, but it also gives bonus feats, saves, UA Strike prof., Wis to AC, etc. Also, Steal looks essentially worthless to me in that it's thematically cool, but it's nearly always gonna be better to be doing something else (apparently similar to Disarm).

[Da'Shain]

Editing the build to swap out Improved Disarm, Agile Maneuvers and Piranha's Strike for Improved Trip, Crane Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-style-combat-style) and Crane Wing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat), which actually fit the defensive focus far better. Now I can combine Combat Expertise with Crane Style to fight defensively at -4 to Hit and +6 to AC, and also deflect one melee attack per round while doing so. Frickin' awesome in a one-on-one, I'd say, which is where this guy is supposed to shine. Now I'm debating between Improved Crit as the 9th level feat, or going whole hog for Crane Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-riposte-combat). Decisions, decisions ...

[Hytheter]

This is shaping up a lot like a build I'm making, though you're using different classes.

Go for Crane Riposte. It's a great ability, and it also boosts Fighting Defensively - you can do it with only a -1 penalty, which isn't bad. Improved Critical on the other hand is easily replace by the Keen enhancement.

If you eventually pick up Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, you get two attacks of opportunity when you trip a foe. And you can trip as your Crane Riposte attack, so yeah.

[HylianKnight]

The feat Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) specifically makes a scimitar work with all duelist class features, as well as adds Dex to attack and damage (!).

Oh Damn! That's awesome that they specified that!!


Also, has there been an official ruling on whether Weapon Finesse affects CMB or not? If it does, it makes Agile Maneuvers kind of worthless for this particular character.

Yes there has.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat
It applies to Combat Maneuvers that involve your weapon. So Disarm, Trip, and Sunder. But all others still need Agile Maneuvers, including your Dirty Trick, so I imagine you'll want to keep it.

[Da'Shain]

I think for MAXIMUM CHEESE I might try and make this guy a Svirfneblin, haha.


Oh Damn! That's awesome that they specified that!!I know, it's a godsend!


Yes there has.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat
It applies to Combat Maneuvers that involve your weapon. So Disarm, Trip, and Sunder. But all others still need Agile Maneuvers, including your Dirty Trick, so I imagine you'll want to keep it.Hmm. This is something I'll actually talk to my DM about. Because the timing on that answer might be important (or irrelevant) -- it says that disarm, sunder and trip are "normally" the only CMs where you're using a weapon to perform it, which may have come out before the APG and Dirty Trick were even released, so it may fit into that category. Plus, Trip at least is emphatically not normally done using a slashing or piercing weapon or it'd do damage, at least I've pretty much never fluffed it or seen anyone fluff it as sweeping a leg with the blade or something like that (I have seen people fluff it as basically being Knockdown, though, which makes sense w/ a weapon). Plus plus, Unarmed Strike is clearly a weapon, so if you're proficient with it then performing maneuvers is pretty much always done at least with Unarmed Strike.

I think my DM, being as he's usually partial to martial-favoring RAW interpretations as he thinks martial classes are fairly weak, would be fine allowing this kind of character to Finesse for Trip and Dirty Trick, without needing Agile Maneuvers. But I'll ask.

[Da'Shain]

So my DM has said he'll allow Weapon Finesse to function for Trip and Dirty Trick. Not sure whether he'd do so normally or if he did so because he enjoyed my character description.

Basically, I'm changing him to a Svirfneblin (editing original build), and his entire shtick is based around making other people look incompetent. He doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but he also doesn't take a whole lot of damage, either (so basically one of the common complaints levelled against the Monk class, but ah well), through virtue of a Dex and Dodge bonus that is absolutely through the roof, large bonuses to all saves, SR, evasion, and, of course, the ability to automatically deflect one ranged and one melee attack a around, in addition to any Parries he decides to make. Instead of dealing much damage, he humiliates his opponents, either by dumping them on their butt with Trip or by performing some Dirty Trick, all while dodging, deflecting or shaking off almost everything thrown at him.

He's also quite skilled at tumbling, quite sneaky, perceptive and discerning, as well as having a smattering of important knowledges. As a character, he was an orphan raised in a Dwarven city, where valor in combat was most often measured by the strength of one's arms and the mettle of one's armor. Growing up, Jereth was always the weak one and always looked down on, so he decided at a young age that he would make his own kind of valor, showing all the dwarven children that their size and strength didn't matter if they couldn't hit him. Participating in duels for decades has honed him into a one-on-one machine, and making sure each ended nonlethally where possible earned him the position of Blade Captain, a position of some note in the city guard; however, his penchant for humiliating those around him, his brutal honesty, and his generally unfriendly, distant demeanor means he is not well-liked, despite being among the most upstanding guardsmen around, and so he is often chosen to be sent away from the city as part of the honor guard for visiting dignitaries.