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View Full Version : [3.5] Season to Taste: Yet Another Warborn Build Request



Red Fel
2013-09-05, 08:10 AM
... or is that Dragonforged?

Yes, another Warforged Dragonborn build thread, because dinobots. But seriously.

So, as some of you might recall from some other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300450), I like unusual builds which have solid flavor, even in the absence of optimization. I'm still working on that one, but everyone needs a hobby, so I thought, why not juggle two characters at once?

So here's the cheese.

First, concept: The character is a Warforged Dragonborn follower of Bahamut, CG or NG, (LG if I end up going Pally, but that's if). He's a generally Nice Guy, rather than a Boy Scout, and really doesn't hate anything except for slavery. Note of history, he was a slave prior to being Reborn, which allowed him a new life and freedom. He still has a pursuer a la Javert.

With regard to body type, I will likely take the Mithral Body at character creation for the bonus to AC without changing armor weight. Light armor is important for this character. With regard to the dragonborn feature, I will likely choose Wings, although Mind is also an option. The big benefits to Mind - the vision upgrades - can be replicated by the time they become truly valuable, while wings would either require expensive items or feats.

Classes: I'm aware that +4 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha can be an awkward starting point. So here's what I'm looking at in terms of possible classes.
1: Fighter or similar: Yes. He has massive Con and no Strength penalty, and Fighter is the favored class for both racial ingredients.
2: Paladin or similar: Maybe. Although the inability to use an armor slot would likely hurt.
3: Monk: Maybe. Mostly just included for completeness' sake, although very few monk classes have impressed me.
4: Tome of Battle: Yes. Crusader has solid flavor for this, and Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade would be crazy fun. (Rapid-fire rocket punches? Yes please.) And Swordsage would help build a legitimate monk.
5: Psionics/Binders/Incarnum: Maybe. I'm open to the possibility, but not in a rush for them.
6: Artificer: No. I know, this is "the" class to make your Warforged crazy. But one, I'm not in this to optimize, and two, I don't have the breadth of knowledge/books needed to play one effectively.
7: Casters: Maybe. First off, spontaneous casters only. One of the really neat (and broken) things about Warforged is that they don't have to sleep. But replace "sleep" with "spend a bunch of time preparing spells" and it can lose a bit of its shine. I can handle "must spend an hour praying for spells," if I have to, or the like, but I'd rather have automatic recharge. Second thing, I'd like to avoid expansive, extensive spell-list classes. Having to hunt down books to find "the" spell is a massive pain and an opportunity I lack. Caster classes with limited, but effective, spell lists are preferred.

With regard to combat style:
Assuming a melee class, I will likely use a Glaive for reach and battlefield control. For obvious reasons, this makes ToB classes potentially very good and diverse. However, I'm also not opposed to unarmed attacks, augmented by a Necklace of Natural Weapons. Towards that end, I am considering several enhancements on weapons/necklace, which will likely arise in a later post, unless someone swordsages me to them.

Also, I really like the idea of enchanting the character's torso directly. That's just crazy fun.

Perhaps ironically, when I started to build this character, and realized the fun that could be had with rapid-fire rocket punches, and the utility of putting the Roaring enhancement on his armor, and having wings, I suddenly realized that I had created GaoGaiGar. That was not my intention, but once the image was in my head, I realized all of the damage I could do with a build like that.

So there we are. Stage 1, building a class that fits the concept. This is where I request help.

EDIT: Update. I've decided to go with an Incarnate/Crusader build. I've chosen Incarnate 10/Crusader 10, because 10th level of Incarnate gets me the extra Shaped/Essentia/Binds, but 11th doesn't get me as much as the extra level of Crusader does. I'm leaning heavily on White Raven and Stone Dragon, for WRT and AMH. This build probably needs an actual weapon, as opposed to Unarmed, and I'm leaning towards a morningstar or warhammer. Any advice is still welcome.

I'm still curious about several questions, as per my post below:
- The delayed damage pool from Crusader - can it be healed normally, before it goes into effect, or does it also suffer the Warforged half-healing-subschool limit?
- Chakra Binds on the Soul (armor) slot: Warforged plating prevents the wearing of armor/robes, and functions like armor/robes, but is it technically armor/robes such that it prevents Soulmelds from being bound on the Soul Chakra?

Waker
2013-09-05, 08:20 AM
I tried to glean what I could from watching a clip of the show, but aside from "I'm a big robot!", I didn't get much. Could you state what you would like to accomplish with this character? You've said you were interested in Bloodstorm Blade to duplicate rocket punches, but was there anything else?

Red Fel
2013-09-05, 08:44 AM
I tried to glean what I could from watching a clip of the show, but aside from "I'm a big robot!", I didn't get much. Could you state what you would like to accomplish with this character? You've said you were interested in Bloodstorm Blade to duplicate rocket punches, but was there anything else?

Well, as I mentioned, GaoGaiGar was not the goal, more of something I observed as the character evolved.

Right now, the concept I have is that he's a Good person- tolerant, hard-working, kind to animals and friend to all children, inexplicably nice to kobolds (another aspect of his history) and violently unforgiving towards slavers.

At this stage, it's a wide-open request. I don't necessarily want heavily-optimized "If you do A, B, and C, then when Mercury aligns with Sagittarius you can punch out Atropos" material, but just general advice on which of these classes would have merit for a Dragonforged with a generally friendly personality and a pathological fear/hatred of involuntary servitude, and how one would best go about constructing them. Flavorful features are a plus.

For instance, I'm aware that the Wis penalty hurts Monk and Swordsage. (Monk, as written, also hurts Monk.) But perhaps somebody has thought of a fun, flavorful way to make it still effective. Similarly, I'm aware that the Crusader high-end maneuvers are somewhat lackluster, but that lower-tier maneuvers are really quite good (WRT for action economy, various Devoted Spirit to heal without using the Healing subschool, Stone Dragon to overcome DR), and the delayed damage pool is a huge plus to a race that doesn't heal normally. Or perhaps somebody had a good point about a particular spontaneous spellcasting class that was Int-based or gish-built to synergise with this character's Con bonus and lack of Str-penalty.

Right now, it's more of an open thread on class combination suggestions, and at some point it will narrow to, "Wow, that was a really great idea, so where do I go from here?"

Nightraiderx
2013-09-05, 08:49 AM
SO YOU WANNA BE A WARFORGED DRAGON? (I know dat feel)
As for a base class, I would suggest duskblade 13 at least, then with your dragon blood, get claws, b/c who doesn't like claws full of elemental might?
grabbing rapid strike and twf iteratives you can be a whirlwind of lightning-based smiting.

Fax Celestis
2013-09-05, 08:52 AM
I would recommend looking at Incarnate, actually.

Nightraiderx
2013-09-05, 09:06 AM
I was playing an incarnate//duskblade/crusader in a low level campaign
never got to exploit the healing hacks so I could heal over time with the dragon blooded- heal as you cast feat and the soulmeld that boosts healing + stance of martial healing.

Person_Man
2013-09-05, 10:10 AM
If you are going for a draconic GaoGaiGar feel, then Totemist (or maybe Totemist/Incarnate/PrC) seems like it might be helpful, since there several draconic soulmelds, and in general it can provide you with a ton of buffed natural weapons, breath weapon(s), flight, ranged weapons, energy resistance, etc. By mid levels you can basically replicate almost any draconic ability, at will, continuously throughout the day.

Waker
2013-09-05, 06:15 PM
Two different people promoting Incarnum classes? I'm so happy.

Anyways, since I'm a big proponent of Incarnum, I'll suggest looking into it as well. Both the Incarnate and Totemist have things to offer to a character. Incarnate is more for defensive and general skills, while Totemist is about natural attacks, movement and detection/stealth skills. As pointed out, there are specific Draconic Soulmelds in Dragon Magic if you are curious. Because so few soulmelds are dependent on level, Incarnum is also extremely multiclass friendly as well, lending itself to mixing with some ToB classes if that strikes your fancy. A Warblade/Totemist with some Tiger Claw would be quite dangerous while a Crusader/Incarnate would just say "Naw, I'm fine."

If you have any questions about specific classes or melds, lemme know.

Red Fel
2013-09-05, 10:32 PM
SO YOU WANNA BE A WARFORGED DRAGON? (I know dat feel)
As for a base class, I would suggest duskblade 13 at least, then with your dragon blood, get claws, b/c who doesn't like claws full of elemental might?
grabbing rapid strike and twf iteratives you can be a whirlwind of lightning-based smiting.

Interesting. I've looked into Duskblade before. Arcane charging natural weapons does have a juicy ring to it. I like.


I would recommend looking at Incarnate, actually.

I've looked at it before. It intrigues me, but I've never played one. How would you recommend I begin?


I was playing an incarnate//duskblade/crusader in a low level campaign
never got to exploit the healing hacks so I could heal over time with the dragon blooded- heal as you cast feat and the soulmeld that boosts healing + stance of martial healing.

That sounds really, really good, and I'm reasonably sure that I have no idea what that means.


If you are going for a draconic GaoGaiGar feel, then Totemist (or maybe Totemist/Incarnate/PrC) seems like it might be helpful, since there several draconic soulmelds, and in general it can provide you with a ton of buffed natural weapons, breath weapon(s), flight, ranged weapons, energy resistance, etc. By mid levels you can basically replicate almost any draconic ability, at will, continuously throughout the day.

That sounds pretty hot. Admittedly, I don't need to replicate most draconic abilities - I have the subtype and wings via this build. But you raise an interesting point with Draconic soulmelds.

Flavorwise, Totemist is an interesting choice. They're basically savage, in the same way Barbarians are. But then again, a former slave might not have had reason to develop literacy, for example. But you raise a very intriguing point.


Two different people promoting Incarnum classes? I'm so happy.

Anyways, since I'm a big proponent of Incarnum, I'll suggest looking into it as well. Both the Incarnate and Totemist have things to offer to a character. Incarnate is more for defensive and general skills, while Totemist is about natural attacks, movement and detection/stealth skills. As pointed out, there are specific Draconic Soulmelds in Dragon Magic if you are curious. Because so few soulmelds are dependent on level, Incarnum is also extremely multiclass friendly as well, lending itself to mixing with some ToB classes if that strikes your fancy. A Warblade/Totemist with some Tiger Claw would be quite dangerous while a Crusader/Incarnate would just say "Naw, I'm fine."

If you have any questions about specific classes or melds, lemme know.

Hmm... Now you have my attention. Admittedly, a Crusader/Incarnate would likely be able to shrug off a lot, which is great when you can't heal naturally or effectively with healing subschool spells. (Although there are a number of ways around the latter.)

You raise a lot of very clever suggestions. I'm likely going to go back over my Incarnum book tonight to give myself a refresher.

I've also been considering additional options, and come across a curiosity. The Morphing weapon enhancement allows you to change a weapon to another weapon within the same type category (light, one-handed, etc.). If you used it on a Necklace of Natural Weapons, what could you turn your unarmed attacks into?

Time to hit the books.

UPDATE: Okay, after some research and some thought, it sounds like I've got the following build ideas:

1. Duskblade. Duskblade all the way down. Channeling spells through unarmed attacks is really pretty sweet, and the Duskblade class ability gets rid of the spell failure penalty from the Warforged plating. Str, Con and Int, my build's strong stats, are perfect for a Duskblade, which combines melee combat and arcane casting. And Duskblade is such a well-built class that I could see just using that one, without PrCs or multiclassing, all the way to 20. All in all, a strong potential contender.

If I wanted to PrC with Duskblade, I suppose I could grab something like JPM, which would give me Emerald Immolation, but that risks overfluffing the character, and requires me to miss out on Duskblade's level 13 ability.

2. Incarnate (or Soulborn)/Crusader. I'm inclined more towards Incarnate than Soulborn, and towards taking Inc before Crs, due to how Initiator Levels work. The Incarnate Good abilities tend to heavily boost AC, and when added to Crusader's delayed damage pool, that means I can soak a lot, which is great when normal healing methods have reduced effectiveness. I'll also need a referee call on this one - since the delayed damage pool isn't technically HP damage until it actually hits, does that mean that healing subschool spells will heal it normally? Further, since many Devoted Spirit maneuvers heal without using the healing subschool, that's full healing. However, I get the impression that for this build, I'd need to use an actual weapon (or Incarnate Weapon), since the abilities I get would do more to soak damage than to deal it, and my unarmed wouldn't be enough. Still, that's incredibly solid, and good flavor to boot.

3. Totemist/Warblade: Again, going with this order because of how Initiator Levels work. First off, I definitely see the benefit of Totemist unarmed. Lots of really tasty abilities there. And it stacks somewhat well with Warblade, although Warblade focuses on Str/Con/Int, while Totemist focuses on Str/Con and slightly on Dex. Totemist also has the advantage of Totem Chakra, meaning I can bind a Soulmeld there without blocking a slot - which always struck me as a very frustrating aspect of Incarnum classes generally. Warblade's added bonus is access to Iron Heart discipline, which is just fantastic, and has solid flavor for a Warforged anyway. A good contender, I think, but not necessarily as appealing as Duskblade or Incarnate/Crusader.

4. Swordsage/something. If I choose to go the unarmed route, and keep to a ToB class, Swordsage still strikes me as the way to go. I mean, it has access to Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw, the four disciplines which utilize unarmed attacks. Contrast that with Crusader, which just gets Stone Dragon, and Warblade, which gets Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw.

As a sidenote about a Warforged any-Incarnum-class, given that the Warforged plating is enchantable like armor and blocks the armor/robe slot, but is not technically armor, can Soulmelds be bound on the Soul (armor) chakra of a Warforged? Or, in the alternatively, can Warforged plating - like other magic armor - be bound on that chakra? Need a ref call here too.

Another side note about Draconic Soulmelds: First, they're kind of nice, but only kind of. A lot of this stuff can be very effectively reproduced with a Necklace of Natural Weapons. For example, Claws are nice, but don't thrill me. Likewise, the Mantle gives me fast healing (below half health) while active, which is great for Warforged, but I already get that from the Draconic Aura (Vigor) feat, or lets my natural weapons overcome DR, which the Necklace also does. The Tail is... a tail. It's nice, and having the extra attack, and a reach weapon or the sweep, is definitely a plus for a meleeist. It's definitely unique flavor. The Mask I like, I really like, for the vision boost and Frightful Presence. The Spirit is nice with Knowledge Devotion, but only the Soul bind really interests me.

I don't know. They seem nice, and flexible, but I don't know how much substantially better than regular Soulmelds they are.

Any thoughts on these builds?