OOTS #917 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[littlebum2002]

OMG! Belkar didn't die!

OMG! They didn't go into the rift!


Also, I've never.....been so early to see the comic update before

[FlawedParadigm]

Was just about to ask if there was going to be a discussion thread. :p

[CoffeeIncluded]

Ooh boy. I still don't kno how they'll get out of this, but this was fantastic and now I have to go to class.

[Quild]

I hope people will stop predict the same thing again and again. But I'm dreaming :(

[SavageWombat]

I see the "Roy can make a fight of it" people were the right ones this time.

Great Cleave is awesome.

[pendell]

Applause!

So... the rift is out of the question now. One question answered.

Tarquin is trying to force some of his own adventuring party on Elan. Really, Elan and Haley did the only thing they could.

Well, absent some kind of outside force it looks like it's going to be a long and a gruelling day.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bartle]

Too bad Belkar wasn't forced to do a "Luke in the Taun-Taun" :smallsmile:

ETA: it's a gas that T has the nerve to call "Zyklon" a B-level villain!

[Sakgeres]

How did Belkar not die? :smallbiggrin:

[UnderTheMoon]

Looks like Elan finally is standing up to Daddy

[Surrealistik]

Kinda reminds me of Zack's final battle from Crisis Core... without the futility.

[Ezekiel]

Yep, Tarquin thinks he's the big bad of the story. What a deluded fruitbasket he's turned out to be.

I think it's kind of heartwarming that everyone is so eager to keep :belkar: alive.

Great strip again Giant!

[fwiffo]

Ugh.... Having Tarquin act like an idiot continues. :smallfrown: Not a fan of current sub-arc.

At least it confirms that Tarquin has little clue about Xykon, which is what the forum was suspecting, and expects him to be a minor villain. But still, disappointing that he is being "idiot plotted".

[FlawedParadigm]

It's actually quite interesting seeing how much effort Roy is putting into keeping Belkar alive, given his attitude a couple of dozen strips back. Also good to see those vampire powers are coming in handy.

I'm starting to get a forum vibe from Tarquin, talking about how the story "should" be. Goodness knows we've had a few people try to tell Rich how to write his own story.

[Rusty]

I wonder how they'll get out of this one...:smallconfused:

[Agnostik]

Is it okay that I laughed way too much at arrows crossbow bolts sticking out of Durkula's head? I'm not evil now, am I? :smalltongue:

[Belsirk]

Chan chan chan!

Very good comic!

By the way, I'm not sure but the second page panel 7, seem there was a flaw with Roy's disegn. On that panel Roy don't has any injurie and all the others he has.

[Lheticus]

Well, so much for them escaping into the rift...there's about 100+ mooks between them and it, and tons more in the wings. As usual, The Giant masterfully defies expectations.

[littlebum2002]

I also just realized the arrows sticking out of Durkon's head that he could care less about.

Damn it feels good to be a vampire

[Lochar]

Yay for Elan!

And Tarquin, it's not your son's win if you're putting your own people into the party. Doesn't work that way.

[dps]

I see the "Roy can make a fight of it" people were the right ones this time.

Great Cleave is awesome.

Yeah, even Belkar was surprised when Roy beheaded the dino and bisected the rider with one blow.

[Nilan8888]

Great, great comic re-iterating Tarquin's thinking and motives.

[Samalpetey]

Well, looks like the Rift is a non-option for now

[The Zealot]

:smalleek: Wow, great cleave can wreck.

And Elan, don't listen to him. That was a fine thesis in such a short amount of time!

Edit: Is it just me or does Roy seem mysteriously uninjured in that 3rd to last panel?

[cavalier973]

Hey Tarquin:

Death doesn't stop Roy, you know.

[Warren Dew]

"Zyklon" ... heh.

[Thokk_Smash]

Go Roy!

Good to see that they won't instantly die from this.

[Tsyndrome]

Things are not looking good for poor Belkar! Also, "Zyklon." Classic.

[Henry the 57th]

Go OoTS! Kick their heads in!

[Chaotic Queen]

On one hand, things are bad. On the other, laughed nonstop at Rob Redblade and Murkon Lightninghammer!

I'm still waiting fo Elan to punch Tarquin.

[Forrestfire]

I was highly amused by Tarquin's misspelling of Xykon. Awesome as always :smallbiggrin:

[Endon the White]

Oh boy. That looks like a full regiment of mooks. There's no way they can carve through all of them, but they're cut off from the rift. Maybe V could turn the tide?

[Dandria]

Man, this is going terribly! :smalleek:

Also, I like the direction taken with Tarquin: he's still a smart and enjoyable character, but now it's been made clear that he's completely deranged, instead of just pragmatically evil.

EDIT: man, so many great moments here! Roy's great cleave, Durkon's arrows, the relationship between them and Belkar, the rift all the way over there, the way Tarquin thinks it's still the time for lampooning roleplayings cliches, the "I've heard better", Zyklon. Man, Zyklon. It's been a while.

[mhsmith]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/elan.gifBut the safety of the world

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.pngis meaningless if everyone is going to run around doing whatever they feel like, without regard for proper story structure

lol. Great way of highlighting his perspective.

[Nilan8888]

Wait... is Roy missing his wounds in Comic #2, Panel 7?

(sorry -- I'm playing mr. Nitpick this afternoon...)

[The Giant]

And Tarquin, it's not your son's win if you're putting your own people into the party. Doesn't work that way.

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

[Scizor]

I think Xykon is going to be pissed off if he learns that Tarquin called him Zyklon :P

[Bluepaw]

Survive until nightfall... hooo boy.

Interesting to see the ambiguity between wanting to keep Belkar alive for his utility in making concealment for everyone -- the clear tactical choice since he's drained -- and whatever loyalty to a teammate still animates Roy despite "running out the clock"... He has learned a lot since being willing to leave Elan behind, regardless of who the next millstone in his party is...

[Tsyndrome]

Also, despite all their best efforts, Belkar will soon have to submit to the logic of strip 417 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html). With so many bowmen, a few are bound to roll natural 20s, no matter how much cover he tries to take.

[Henry the 57th]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

Giant, do Miron and Laurin understand that Tarquin is effectively admitting he considers them easily-replaced pawns he can find in a bar? Are they ok with that? Or is that something you can't talk about because spoilers?

[Tiiba]

D&D is weird. So a high-level party can spend several hours slaughtering dinosaurs and expect to survive?

And Durkon is finally growing hair. Well, sort of.

[Marlowe]

I've been looking forward to this. Nice moments for both Roy and Elan. And Durkon's tactics are a nice blend of both his old, protective self and his new ruthlessness.

And stop him from becoming too obvious as a factor to TT, so he doesn't get targeted by something that actually would bother a Vampire in the desert sun.

[Morty]

Those soldiers are sure eager to charge someone who cleaves through five of them in one swing...

[Oko and Qailee]

GOOOOO ROY!

I can't wait for Tarquin too realize that HE is the sub-boss, not Xykon

[The Giant]

Giant, do Miron and Laurin understand that Tarquin is effectively admitting he considers them easily-replaced pawns he can find in a bar? Are they ok with that? Or is that something you can't talk about because spoilers?

Those are PCs. They're villains. Different rules. And it's a joke.

[fwiffo]

Giant, do Miron and Laurin understand that Tarquin is effectively admitting he considers them easily-replaced pawns he can find in a bar? Are they ok with that? Or is that something you can't talk about because spoilers?

Not to mention Malack. Sure, he was a close friend whose murder was sufficient reason for Tarquin to kill his own son. But it is not like Tarquin can't just walk into nearest tavern and hire a new high level close friend cleric.

*sigh* In writing, characters are meant to drive the story. Here, we have story driving characters.

[ThePhantasm]

Great strip, Giant! Tarquin's dialogue has been a lot of fun recently. Cool to see Elan stand up to him regarding stories as well (interesting little free will vs. predestination debate lurking there between the two).

I'm still a little worried about Belkar biting the dust here...

[GameJudge]

Yay for Elan!

And Tarquin, it's not your son's win if you're putting your own people into the party. Doesn't work that way.

"Rob Redblade" and "Murklon Lightninghammer" are not Tarquin's people. They are names he invented that are similar to the names of Elan's current companions. Recall Shojo's question to Belkar in his hippie vision-quest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html): "Is that all you are? A race and a class? Another forgettable mix-and-match player character? If you die, will another halfling ranger just happen to show up to take your place?"

Typically, in D&D campaigns, yes. And Tarquin is dismissing Roy and Durkon (and the whole Order, really) as replaceable, and mocking Elan's concept that being "Roy" and "Durkon" really matters. "Rob" and "Murklon" will be a fighter and a cleric, just like the fighter and cleric they're replacing. Done and done.

*EDIT* ninja'd by The Giant. Both "Hooray, my reading comprehension matched the author's intent!" and "Ah, well. Ninja'd."

[Nilan8888]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

I think he just missed the play-on-words of Durkon and Roy's names.

Frankly, that was the first thing that popped into my head too, at the moment I read it. Probably because Tarquin seems the sort who might actually do something like that.

I think the overall meaning is clearer as you read on though, even if you don't get the joke until later.

[FlawedParadigm]

I wonder how many hours until dusk, anyhow. Obviously "as many as Rich wants there to be" but I'm just curious how long that stand would be taking assuming it actually plays out that way and Tarquin doesn't get Laurin to just start dropping psychic nukes after five minutes.

[BroomGuys]

"Zyklon" ... heh.

Anybody else think this means Xykon will kill Tarquin?

[WindStruck]

Roy has a great plan! I think I will elaborate the steps for those who don't see this working:

Step 1: Don't die.
Step 2: Go back to step 1.

[rgrekejin]

Well. This is shaping up to be pretty darn cool. Massive understatement smiley

[Oko and Qailee]

D&D is weird. So a high-level party can spend several hours slaughtering dinosaurs and expect to survive?
.

Yeah, because essentially, past level 5 you're only a human in the sense that you look like a human.

Roy and party are ~12-15, this is well beyond the level at which Barbarians can survive falls from space.

And then, on top of that, Roy is laden with magic items. In medival fights with armor, soldiers usually aimed for legs in an attempt to get their opponent to stop fighting, this is because penetrating armor is hard. The negative to this is that it's harder to reach legs.

Now imagine some guy with the strength of a giant (Roy and his belt) swinging a 6ft long sword around him, you can't reach his extremities easily and you can't penetrate his only easy-to-hit area, his armor.

[littlebum2002]

Wait a minute...They don't need to wait until dusk! They just need to wait another ~10 minutes until V wakes up! I'm pretty sure her spell slots are pretty full...


This is an awesome strip. Rob Redblade, somebody Lightninghammer, Zyklon, Belkar reduced to kicking sand everywhere, Durkon with arrows sticking out of his head (Good thing they didn't hit his beard, the secret Dwarven weak spot) and, last but not least, Roy's awesome plan-making ability. I miss seeing Roy's cool plans.


EDIT:

Although, as others have pointed out, maybe once V shows up Tarquin might sick Laurin on her? Who knows?

[Lochar]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

Ah, misunderstood then.

I'd gone under the assumption that Tarquin had already prestaged new companions for Elan.

[Joe the Rat]

Is it okay that I laughed way too much at arrows crossbow bolts sticking out of Durkula's head? I'm not evil now, am I? :smalltongue:

Nah. Annoying arrows bolts are always funny. Also note the Spiny has a few.

Concealment and Cover. Always good when being shot at.


...and I've just thought of a good reason why they aren't addressing the casters.
:roy: What casters?

By the scale of things, Team Crater hasn't been privy to any of the Nale-killing, Ian-framing, Order-at-all-costs shenanigans of the last few strips.

So, which runs out first: Hamatula's summons, or Nero's claim on Vaarsuvius?

Tsyndrome: Given Belkar's size, the Large dino may be providing total cover... well, on one side.

[Saph]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

Sad thing is, that DOES describe an awful lot of D&D games I've played. Except we usually skip the 'go to the tavern' step.

Anyway, great comic! Roy demonstrates why you don't send an army of mooks at a high-level fighter with Great Cleave. :smallbiggrin: Nice to see him getting a chance to shine.

[Juhn]

So the Order doesn't actually have players behind the characters, right?

This is a bit confusing, as "Rob Redblade and Murkon Lightninghammer" would ostensibly show up because those guys don't want to stop playing those characters (or essentially those characters), just because they died.

[gerryq]

Tarquin is trying to force some of his own adventuring party on Elan.

I think "Rob Redblade" and "Murkon Lightninghammer" are just names Tarquin invented to represent alternatives to Roy and Durkon that Elan might hire in a tavern. They are not so-far unnamed members of Tarquin's team.

Edit: I see about three ordinary posters plus the Giant beat me to it.

[Henry the 57th]

Those are PCs. They're villains. Different rules. And it's a joke.

Heh. :smallbiggrin:

Still, you'd think that with Tarquin going on about how he both expects and wants his son to overthrow him and their empires, they might sense that there is now something of a divergence in their interests. Unless they're as devoted to the narrative as him, they might well decide that both he and the order need to go.

Stabbed in the back by his own teammates would also be an appropriately anticlimatic end for Tarquin. :smallwink:

[Arrowstorm122]

Anybody else think this means Xykon will kill Tarquin?

It's possible. Tarquin getting defeated by the true main villain would make his legacy a sidestory to Xykon's. And I don't think Xykon inspires anybody but psychopaths.

[gerryq]

"Zyklon" ... heh.


I better not say which character I think that would have been a better name for...

[internisus]

There must be some sense of order—personal, political, or dramatic—and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.


Tarquin is Evil because he is Lawful. He determined long ago that the greatest order can only be achieved through Evil acts—in fact, he probably views his actions as Neutral, if anything, unconcerned with moral alignment. To what extent is his logic sound? Discuss!

[nocker]

Friendly reminder that once IFFC frees V, he awaken in some kind of safe place, some meters below the current action, with mostly all his spells prepared (she got out of action in the very beginning of this sequence, so V's like one passwall out of spells). V will be one Bugsby's Earth Pushing Hand away from joining the scene.

And you guys know what an Evoker does with an army of mooks, right?

[Samalpetey]

It's quite interesting how the soldiers still advance to the guy who's cutting them down by the dozens. That's what I call discipline.

[Smolder]

If only "Zyklon" could hear T call him a "sub-boss". T would get curbstomped.

[otakuryoga]

so much for all the "they will dive into the rift to escape" theories

[GameJudge]

Heh. :smallbiggrin:

Still, you'd think that with Tarquin going on about how he both expects and wants his son to overthrow him and their empires, they might sense that there is now something of a divergence in their interests. Unless they're as devoted to the narrative as him, they might well decide that both he and the order need to go.

Stabbed in the back by his own teammates would also be an appropriately anticlimatic end for Tarquin. :smallwink:

Perhaps they know it all. Live by the narrative convention, die by the narrative convention. As Tarquin pointed out when he outlined his plan, the Evil Empire gets overthrown. Period. He intends to ride it out and enjoy the ride as long as he can. I don't doubt for a minute that "All those stories have one thing in common: The Evil Empire EXISTS. As long as we go into this with our eyes open, we win," was part of his initial pitch to his companions.

[Joe the Rat]

So the Order doesn't actually have players behind the characters, right?

This is a bit confusing, as "Rob Redblade and Murkon Lightninghammer" would ostensibly show up because those guys don't want to stop playing those characters (or essentially those characters), just because they died.

Correct. This is an RPG mechanics 'verse, not a campaign comic. But Tarquin's view of the world is that it should work that way. If he was thinking it's actually a game rather than a story, he'd be less hung up about the "who's the hero" issue. He'd be okay with Elan hanging back if he was the party leader. The results would probably be the same (Kill Roy and Elan gets a Klingon Promotion), but the dialogue would be different.

[hopeful1212]

I'm definitely getting a Vorlon vibe from Tarquin's speech about order. Now, I'm hoping that Elan will somehow be able to toss him into the rift later and shout "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" :smallsmile:

[FlawedParadigm]

Mid-boss would have been even more amusing to Disgaea fans. :p

[Xelbiuj]

Heh, Zyklon.
Well we all know plan A isn't going to work. Plan G maybe. :smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

I'm surprised that the mook brigade would charge in, instead of just standing at the edges of the pit shooting arrows. Even if there are only a few hundred of them (though it looks like a lot more), if they all just stood their shooting arrows and throwing weapons at them, the critical hits should have killed Roy, Durkula, and Belkar within one or two rounds.

I guess the mooks follow the same dramatic conventions as Tarquin. "I know it's pointless for most of us to die against these high level heroes by using the most ineffective method possible to try and kill them. But we have to create a sense of suspense (and possibly sacrifice) before the heroes escape!"

Also, it's a shame Durkula didn't memorize Blade Barrier today. That would be hilarious.

[Oko and Qailee]

There must be some sense of order—personal, political, or dramatic—and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.


Tarquin is Evil because he is Lawful. He determined long ago that the greatest order can only be achieved through Evil acts—in fact, he probably views his actions as Neutral, if anything, unconcerned with moral alignment. To what extent is his logic sound? Discuss!

Disagree. Burning slaves to make the name "Elan" isn't lawful as far as I am aware, and it's not necessary to create order.

[Shatteredtower]

The energy of this strip, including the dialogue between party members, is strong. I can almost hear the soundtrack.

[Ascaloth]

You know, I still think Tarquin, in his own twisted way, is still looking out for his son's interests above all.

Think about it. In a party of six PCs, which is the one role which isn't expendable?

:smallcool:

[otakuryoga]

as far as the "Rob Redblade and Murkon Lightninghammer"
being Tarquins people....no
just lampshading the stereotype that replacement characters in rpg campaigns are so often named very close to the old ones.....

[GameJudge]

If only "Zyklon" could hear T call him a "sub-boss". T would get curbstomped.

Do you think that Xykon would care about it being said? You and I diverge on that character interpretation.

Now, if Tarquin tried to PROVE Xykon was a sub-boss by taking him down, an actual challenge to his rep? Then it would be ON.

[Dwy]

Elan was right, Roy is the best hero ever.

[Zubrowka74]

"Zyklon" and "B-villain"

I see what you did here...

[raymundo]

Once more it becomes obvious to me why this very webcomic is by far my favorite thing on the internet ever. Ever ever

[mhsmith]

Heh. :smallbiggrin:

Still, you'd think that with Tarquin going on about how he both expects and wants his son to overthrow him and their empires, they might sense that there is now something of a divergence in their interests. Unless they're as devoted to the narrative as him, they might well decide that both he and the order need to go.

Stabbed in the back by his own teammates would also be an appropriately anticlimatic end for Tarquin. :smallwink:

Well, each of the three empires is at least somewhat independent. Especially with Malack gone now, if Tarquin falls but Tears and Sweat survive, I'm sure they'd be sad but it wouldn't automatically mean their demise or downfall.

[Ninja Dragon]

Man, it's amazing how clueless Tarquin is. Sub-boss Zyklon? LOL

Tarquin is overestimating his own knowledge of how this story is structured, and this is going to be his downfall. He's already pretty lucky Xykon didn't stay in the desert for too long.

Also, Roy is being very badass here. My respect for him raised again.

Time for a Varsuuvius entrance?

[Toper]

Great dialogue between Tarquin and Elan.

By the last panel, the soldiers seem a lot less eager to charge in. Time for Tarquin and company to join the fight?

[Zelkon]

C'mon Elan. Put some awesome plan into action and kill that bastard.

[Exeunt]

Nice Slaughter...Roy is really a mook killing machine. He also seems perfectly fine utilizing vamp Durkon's powers. And trying to protect Belkar surprisingly.
Seems he has got a dose of pragmatism.

Also is it just me or is Mr. Scruffy helping with the sandscreen? Looks like cat digging powers at work..

[BroomGuys]

It's possible. Tarquin getting defeated by the true main villain would make his legacy a sidestory to Xykon's. And I don't think Xykon inspires anybody but psychopaths.

Good points, but what I was mainly getting at is that Xykon hates people who get his name wrong.

[Psyren]

Someone really needs a "Rob Redblade" forum account now :smallbiggrin:


How did Belkar not die? :smallbiggrin:

Minimum damage is my guess.

[Oko and Qailee]

Man, it's amazing how clueless Tarquin is. Sub-boss Zyklon? LOL


Yeah, everything he says and thinks is based off the huge fundamental error he is making by thinking he is the main villian in the comic. When in reality hes another Samantha or Kubota, he just looks more powerful because the Order are higher level than when they fought the other two.

Man, he is going to die really anti-climantically by the end of this book, I can't wait for V to disintegrate him, as he dies he realizes that his immediate death can only occur if he is in fact the sidequest.

[Bluepaw]

Also: LOVE the reference to the recruitment montage in On the Origin of PCs, and all the goofy rejects...

[Joe the Rat]

Minimum damage is my guess.
Indeed. He was only hit by one bolt (I counted the thunks). 1d8 or 1d10 (are we talkin' light or heavy crossbows?).

[Arrowstorm122]

There must be some sense of order—personal, political, or dramatic—and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.


Tarquin is Evil because he is Lawful. He determined long ago that the greatest order can only be achieved through Evil acts—in fact, he probably views his actions as Neutral, if anything, unconcerned with moral alignment. To what extent is his logic sound? Discuss!

Everybody is aware that they're in a comic in this world. Tarquin acknowledges that the world is a narrative, and he knows how a narrative works. He knows how a good story is created. The elements, the exposition, the revelations, the foreshadowing, all of it.

However, Tarquin's current position is not the main villain he wants to be, that he thinks he is. He's Elan's main villain, but Roy is the main hero, and his Oath, the quest, and Xykon is his stuff, and therefore it's the main quest.

For Tarquin to become the main villain, Elan has to become the main hero, the leader of the surviving Order of the Stick.

And Tarquin is right, there must be an order. You can't keep sidetracking the main plot in a story, because then it becomes long and boring and loses tension.
But he's not the main villain he wants to be, and he thinks that his story is the right one, kind of in the way that some older men are very conservative about how things are "supposed to be". He's trying to manipulate to story into becoming the story he wants, the story he thinks it's supposed to be, because it makes sense from his viewpoint, from how he has lived his life, but this is not his story. It's not the story of Elan. It's the story of the Order of the Stick, and it's a story that's in this case bigger than the one Tarquin believes it is.

[Shred-Bot]

So... Tarquin is one of the forumites who consistently spells character names wrong! I knew it!

[Sunken Valley]

Does this mean Durkon has no Thor's Might

[AKA_Bait]

Good points, but what I was mainly getting at is that Xykon hates people who get his name wrong.

It's also, possibly, a very subtle joke about the forum. Back in olden times when I first started reading this comic, you had plenty of posters who would rampantly speculate about Xykon and spell his name many permutations of wrong. Zyklon was among the most popular misspellings for some reason. As another poster observed, Tarquin is acting a bit like one of those posters right now: he's leaping to conclusions about the story as a whole with little or faulty information.

Now get off my lawn.

[Bartle]

*sigh* In writing, characters are meant to drive the story. Here, we have story driving characters.Though I consider compelling character development to be the weakest aspect of OOTS, I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to state that there's only one correct way to write a story.

OOTS is plot-driven, but so what? It's an awfully good plot!

[Michaeler]

Good to see a chance for some more cleavage jokes at last.

[SteveMB]

It's quite interesting how the soldiers still advance to the guy who's cutting them down by the dozens. That's what I call discipline.

Quicker and less painful than what Tarquin would do to them for cowardice in battle, I daresay.

[Reddish Mage]

Looks like Tarquin has confirmed my worst fears about him. In calling Zyklon a sub-boss he has totally lost any connection to what this narrative actually is like or his own place in it.

Tarquin is ignoring both the fact that his empire isn't even a world-spanning threat (and the gates are) and the fact that he has come into the middle of a narrative.

[DPUNKSTAR]

Not bad, I figured something like this would happen. Genre Savvy leader or not mooks are mooks. Glad to see everyone kicking some ass, but wouldn't it just be a bit more effective for Durkon to create some spawns instead of just dominating.

Also I loved the Rob Redblade and Murkon bit.

[internisus]

In writing, characters are meant to drive the story. Here, we have story driving characters.

Assuming there is something to what you are saying here, you are looking at it the wrong way. In OotS, the conventions of story are part of the world. Tropes are taken for granted as facts. Therefore, when characters like Tarquin and Elan demonstrate and make decisions based upon genre savvy, that is the nature of the world informing and motivating characters in how they drive the story.

[Psyren]

Does this mean Durkon has no Thor's Might

Good point - he cast Cure Critical Wounds before saying that, and he hasn't done anymore conversions that I can see, so Righteous Might should be his last spell remaining.

[Samalpetey]

Quicker and less painful than what Tarquin would do to them for cowardice in battle, I daresay.

It's almost like the prisoner's dilemma. If they all run, many will survive, if one or two of them do the no runners will live

[luna the cat]

people are so quick to write off Tarquin, but if Order of the Stick goes off and beats Xykon and he's still around... he's absolutely right, isn't he? he's the big bad when that happens! And, unlike Xykon, the Archfiends aren't going to be involved or manipulating things if/when that happens.

[The Shadow]

Disagree. Burning slaves to make the name "Elan" isn't lawful as far as I am aware, and it's not necessary to create order.

It might not be a lawful act in itself, but it is when you do it for Evil Overlord reasons. As for creating order... of course it does. It's not a pleasant order, but it's order.

The slaves were the Empire's property. The law says they should die for attempting escape. And executing them by burning to make a sign for his son only emphasizes to everyone that Tarquin can do what he pleases with his property. As well as impressing on the other slaves what a grave mistake it is to attempt escape.

Please note that I am not arguing Tarquin and the Empire of Blood are not desperately evil. They certainly are! I'm merely arguing that, for Tarquin, the desire for order really is at the heart of his evilness.

[Spoomeister]

I'm definitely getting a Vorlon vibe from Tarquin's speech about order. Now, I'm hoping that Elan will somehow be able to toss him into the rift later and shout "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" :smallsmile:

Ah, ya beat me to it. Knowing the Giant's fondness for Babylon 5, and my own, that was the first thing I thought of also when Elan provided his own moment of standing up to authority there.

Not saying he's swiping from B5, obviously. Just that it's the first parallel or similar example I thought of. And I'm a B5 nut, so putting B5 story arc quality and OOTS story arc quality side-by-side is intended to be high praise.

(Just as JMS often frowned and noted "I have no interest in having B5 be LOTR with the serial numbers filed off", I don't accuse Giant of some of the OOTS plotting being B5 in a funny hat.)

[Sunken Valley]

Just noticed, the sand is all wet and green coloured. Because water is spilling out of the rift.

[Adeptus]

I'm loving the image of Roy moving down the mooks. That's some glorious heroic fantasy sillyness :D

Also Liliet got what she wished for :roy:

Hold on Belkster!

[Agi Hammerthief]

"OOTS #917 - The Discussion" Thread
Verry fitting title :smalltongue:

[The Pink Ninja]

I think Roy is the most standout character of this strip. He doesn't panic or quit or even go on a last heroic charge.

He fights, but fights to keep living and protect his friends. That is epic level badassery.

Also like how is trying to protect Belkar.

[Giggling Ghast]

This is magnificent. Truly. I'm enjoying this immensely. Tarquin's lampshading of how Elan will easily find suspiciously similar substitute party members was particularly ingenious. :smallbiggrin:

Also, I think Elan just hinted at how he will defeat Tarquin.

[Frog Dragon]

Not bad, I figured something like this would happen. Genre Savvy leader or not mooks are mooks. Glad to see everyone kicking some ass, but wouldn't it just be a bit more effective for Durkon to create some spawns instead of just dominating.

Roy might not approve. Also, normally, it would take 3 days for the vampire spawns to actually rise, and it's not certain if Durkon knows how to activate all of Malack's staff's powers.

[Joe the Rat]

Ah, ya beat me to it. Knowing the Giant's fondness for Babylon 5, and my own, that was the first thing I thought of also when Elan provided his own moment of standing up to authority there.

Not saying he's swiping from B5, obviously. Just that it's the first parallel or similar example I thought of. And I'm a B5 nut, so putting B5 story arc quality and OOTS story arc quality side-by-side is intended to be high praise.

(Just as JMS often frowned and noted "I have no interest in having B5 be LOTR with the serial numbers filed off", I don't accuse Giant of some of the OOTS plotting being B5 in a funny hat.)
Given the extensive Star Wars referencing, Tossing in some B5 would be a good sendoff.

I'd prefer that, actually. Otherwise Tarquin's story will close with an Ewok Party. And we don't want that now, do we? Yub yub!

[rewinn]

...Also is it just me or is Mr. Scruffy helping with the sandscreen? Looks like cat digging powers at work..
Good spot! The crater has got to look like The Best Catbox Ever ...


Good to see a chance for some more cleavage jokes at last.

And Haley hasn't even gotten into the fight! Although we haven't seen her use her great cleavage in a combat role.:smalltongue:

[t209]

I think Order need V now?

[HobbesB]

What does Elan hope to accomplish by running into the Melee? Is he going to be a meatshield for Roy? There's no way for them to win this fight without V, who for all they know is dead. Elan's best option here should be to put his charisma to work and make a more convincing argument to his father.

That said, I do see a way this could work out. Durkula grabs Elan and threatens to kill and/or turn him if they aren't allowed to leave. Tarquin wouldn't take such a threat seriously from the noble heroes, but the vampire could pull it off methinks.

[Adeptus]

Is Roy mowing the mooks down six at a time? Can somebody familiar with the 3.5 rules tell me what the killing power of a ~15th level fighter with great cleavage is in a situation like this. I suspect he can account for at least a few hundred mooks all by himself before they can bring him down.

[warmachine]

Roy needs to rethink his plan and quickly. A high level fighter like him can rip through low level mooks but each attack against him might get a lucky, natural 20. That's only a 5% chance of a (probably) non-magical weapon damage but throw enough mooks and that damage adds up. And that's if Team Tarquin doesn't join in.

[MaximKat]

So Tarquin is Lawful Crazy now?

[ellindsey]

Just noticed, the sand is all wet and green coloured. Because water is spilling out of the rift.

I think that's just the shading of the bottom of the crater.

[Porthos]

Roy the Hero is Heroic in this comic. Epically so. Even if his character sheet doesn't reflect it yet. :smallwink:

Love it. :smallsmile:

[internisus]

Please note that I am not arguing Tarquin and the Empire of Blood are not desperately evil. They certainly are! I'm merely arguing that, for Tarquin, the desire for order really is at the heart of his evilness.

Which I think makes (or will one day make) him oddly sympathetic. He does not act out of malice but rather to right the world (from his perspective, of course). I imagine that there must be a desperation behind his objective, something that happened to him once upon a time that led him to crave order so deeply that it trumps all other considerations.

[Joe the Rat]

An odd thought on Karma: This is the second time someone's been saved by a dinosaur, and this time Belkar's on the receiving end. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

[tzukisan]

Clever defensive strategy by Roy. Sand for concealment:smallbiggrin:.

Since Durkon's a vampire and his alignment is Lawful Evil, which god does he worship? Thor?

Also I was going through the older comics, when i realized now that Durkon's alignment changed he could possibly cast Resurrection on one of the draketooth corpses successfully...If they hadn't been blown up along with the pyramid.:smallannoyed:.Still they have Girard's skeleton, so assuming he didn't die naturally there's a possibility.

[Thokk_Smash]

Roy needs to rethink his plan and quickly. A high level fighter like him can rip through low level mooks but each attack against him might get a lucky, natural 20. That's only a 5% chance of a (probably) non-magical weapon damage but throw enough mooks and that damage adds up. And that's if Team Tarquin doesn't join in.

If he had any other options, he would. But they're essentially in the same boat as with the elemental, but with even less chance of escape.

[illyahr]

I just figured out how to completely destroy Tarquin's hopes for his own legend:

After the OotS returns from defeating Xykon, they overthrow the evil Empire of Blood and execute all its high-ranking officials. Tarquin would forever be lumped together with "high-ranking officials" and his name would never be known. :smallbiggrin:

[Vinsfeld]

GAWD! I just hate Tarquin so much.

I didn't really care about him until these last updates. Now I hate him. He's so full of himself.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Alysar]

I think that clinches it. Xykon is eventually going to kill Tarquin.

[skaddix]

Lol is Tarquin talking about how the story should be a forum stand in

[Oko and Qailee]

It might not be a lawful act in itself, but it is when you do it for Evil Overlord reasons. .

Key word. He was saying Tarquin is only evil because he's lawful.

No, he's evil because he's evil. And the burning slaves was done because he's evil. Even if it's a lawful thing (showing display of force to maintain order), there are other, less evil methods.

If he was solely attempting to be Lawful but taking it to an evil extreme then he probably wouldn't have done that.

[HobbesB]

Now if V returns to help in the fight, what exactly is he going to do? He's not powerful enough to defeat the army, and I don't see any way for him to strike at Tarquin with his near-epic party members present. Maybe V will be the one to hold Elan hostage?

[illyahr]

Is Roy mowing the mooks down six at a time? Can somebody familiar with the 3.5 rules tell me what the killing power of a ~15th level fighter with great cleavage is in a situation like this. I suspect he can account for at least a few hundred mooks all by himself before they can bring him down.

Lets assume 16th level for max attacks. Every time Roy kills something, he gets a free attack. Assuming the mooks are no more than ~5th level, he could decimate one with every swing if he uses full Power Attack (a -5 penalty doesn't matter when the mooks only have an AC of ~15 and Roy's total attack ~+20).

Given this conclusion, Roy could concievably wipe out every mook in a 5' radius of himself every turn. If he was fully surrounded, that's 8 mooks a turn, with only MAYBE 1 attack hitting him each round.

[Oko and Qailee]

Is Roy mowing the mooks down six at a time? Can somebody familiar with the 3.5 rules tell me what the killing power of a ~15th level fighter with great cleavage is in a situation like this. I suspect he can account for at least a few hundred mooks all by himself before they can bring him down.

Depends on how luck the mooks are in rolling crits and what level they are.

TBH a level 15 fighter can probably fight all day and night if the mooks are no more than level 1-2.

[Alysar]

Now if V returns to help in the fight, what exactly is he going to do?

V might be able to get them to the rift. They can't win this fight, but they might be able to escape it.

[Arrowstorm122]

Isn't it a bit much that Roy can constantly one shot five people at the same time?

[internisus]

Key word. He was saying Tarquin is only evil because he's lawful.

No, he's evil because he's evil. And the burning slaves was done because he's evil. Even if it's a lawful thing (showing display of force to maintain order), there are other, less evil methods.

If he was solely attempting to be Lawful but taking it to an evil extreme then he probably wouldn't have done that.

It is possible to view the burning slaves as something Tarquin needed to do to reveal his role to his son, which needed to occur for dramatic order and to move their story forward. This is rather circular reasoning, but when a character is so strongly motivated by his awareness of story structure it is difficult to avoid that!

[Spoomeister]

Other things that occurred to me:

I think we've seen the OOTS in its various forms taking on single opponents of appropriate (or near-appropriate) CR, for so long, that I've forgotten what approximate level these guys are. As some folks noted in the 916 thread, a horde of mooks and some dinos are actually not necessarily overwhelming.

I think Durkula might be in for a mild surprise... or at least, some change-of-service-provider humor... when he goes to pray for his spells at dusk. I wonder if we'll get to see 'on-panel' what it's like no longer getting his spells from Thor. Dang, this would be poor timing for an interruption in service...

Man, seeing Elan and Haley just a few feet from Tarquin... pity they don't have a few more levels, and that Elan can't bring himself to attack T... well, with a couple of T's adventuring party right there and part of an army around them they might not get more than one or two rounds before getting cut down, so perhaps not. But still! Bad guy! Right there! Stabbing distance! Have to run into the crater anyway! Good stuff.

Tarquin's explanation of his personal philosophy, and riffing on what the Giant was commenting on in the 916 discussion thread, is pretty complete now. And it's consistent and even plausible. This is Lawful Evil, interpreted by a high-level character, taken to a logical conclusion.

So as of this strip, I don't think Tarquin is deluded at all. He's being consistent with his world view, his experience, his alignment, and with the resources and goals that he has. He's been living in and manipulating a world of politics and intrigue and such for decades... "stop the mad lich who is trying to rule the world with the power of a reality-bending portal-gate-thing" doesn't sound like The Story, in that context... it sounds like a really neat side-quest, for mid-to-high-level adventurers, to get a boatload of XP so that they can be the kind of people that can play politics and empire building at Tarquin's level.
Also, another way to think on it: destroy Xykon and Redcloak, contain the Snarl... ok great, then what? It's one adventure but it doesn't really define a person's life. The business of creating, propping up and ruling nations can be its own end and keep one occupied meaningfully for a lifetime.

The explanation that Roy and Durkon are expendable, because there's always more adventurers at the next tavern, is pitch-perfect.

I'm still jonesing for more Xykon/Redcloak/MitD, and Gates/Snarl story, because to me the reader that is the main plotline... but this section of the story is hanging together a bit better than I thought it would a few strips ago. I should learn to be more patient. :smallbiggrin:

[Alysar]

It is possible to view the burning slaves as something Tarquin needed to do to reveal his role to his son, which needed to occur for dramatic order and to move their story forward. This is rather circular reasoning, but when a character is so strongly motivated by his awareness of story structure it is difficult to avoid that!

Doesn't make it any less evil, though. He's choosing an evil role within that story structure.

[Spoomeister]

Isn't it a bit much that Roy can constantly one shot five people at the same time?

I think that's a perfectly good portrayal of Great Cleave (http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Great_Cleave).

[Psyren]

And that's if Team Tarquin doesn't join in.

If that were going to happen he probably would have had Laurin just start nuking them to begin with. I see Team Tarquin porting out instead.

Sidenote: Fighting till nightfall will mean V has time to come back - perhaps with Sabine in tow :smalleek:

[Arrowstorm122]

I feel a bit bad for Tarquin. His whole life has been about being the main villain. I wonder how he will deal with it when he realizes how powerful Xykon actually is?

[Samalpetey]

Do we know how much of the army this is? It seems like an awful waste now I think of it...

[faustin]

So Tarquin is Lawful Crazy now?

More likely Wrong Genre Savvy. I heavily suspect Mr. Rich is using Tarquin to expose another of the most annoying type of players: the one who exploits tropes, cliques and genre conventions to exhaustion, convinced the GM/director/author is always going to play by them.

[Bartle]

Just noticed, the sand is all wet and green coloured. Because water is spilling out of the rift.So if the "other world" is Earth-like and the bottom of the rift is 2" below the surface of the ocean, the desert is about to make the slow acquaintance of an amount of water roughly equivalent to a cube ten miles on each side :smallbiggrin:

Of course, the rift could be above the surface and we're just seeing waves splashing over, which is probably more likely.

[ellindsey]

V might be able to get them to the rift. They can't win this fight, but they might be able to escape it.

V could cast flight, then use Bigby's Party-Retrieving Hand on the others to bring them along, I suppose. I could even see V doing it not just to escape, but to learn more about the world through the Rift, since the nature of their entire goal might not be what they were told.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Assuming there is something to what you are saying here, you are looking at it the wrong way. In OotS, the conventions of story are part of the world. Tropes are taken for granted as facts. Therefore, when characters like Tarquin and Elan demonstrate and make decisions based upon genre savvy, that is the nature of the world informing and motivating characters in how they drive the story.

In this world people can literally draw combat power from tropes, its kind of silly how people keep thinking Tarquin is deranged or foolish for expecting tropes to be laws of the universe.

[Grey Watcher]

Just noticed, the sand is all wet and green coloured. Because water is spilling out of the rift.

I think that might just be Burlew's way of showing the change in elevation (ie that they're in a crater), because there's what appears to be hard rock directly around the rift itself. It's ambiguous, I guess.

[Arrowstorm122]

More likely Wrong Genre Savvy. I heavily suspect Mr. Rich is using Tarquin to expose another of the most annoying type of players: the one who exploits tropes, cliques and genre conventions to exhaustion, convinced the GM/director/author is always going to play by them.

There are such people that think they can manipulate/predict the GM because they know some tropes?

[ellindsey]

In this world people can literally draw combat power from tropes, its kind of silly how people keep thinking Tarquin is deranged or foolish for expecting tropes to be laws of the universe.

Tarquin's only real delusion is assuming that he can displace Xykon to become the main villain of the comic.

[Magnasword2]

Come one Xykon you can't take that misspelling without meteor swarming the guy who did it...

[The Pink Ninja]

I'd like to add to people dissing Tarquin for underestimating Xykon remember this:

Tarquin almost single handedly beat the entire Order (Sans V) who are themselves some of the highest level good guys in the known world. He's the leader of a party of high level adventurers, maybe level 20s, maybe even Epic level. And they have three Empires worth of resources and decades worth of experience and magic items.

Even without Malak, I think Tarquin's Party would stand a decent chance against Xykon.

[Mike Havran]

Well, that destroys the last shreds of my theory that Tarquin was affected by Nale's death. Never mind. He's badass anyway. And this strip is the most amazing one since Nale got Tarquin's point.

But seriously, Zyklon? :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

As hilarious as it is, did Tarquin just pull that name out of mid-air? As far as I know, he never heard the name "Xykon" before. His guess is pretty accurate, as a matter of fact.

[internisus]

Doesn't make it any less evil, though. He's choosing an evil role within that story structure.

But, possibly, only because, in the case of that one example of the burning slaves, doing something evil is what story structure requires. Think of it from Tarquin's perspective: What kind of story is it if the long-estranged father turns out to be a cool dad who's completely on his newfound son's side? Lame! What use would that be?

Again, this justification can stretch infinitely because it's a simple matter of importing presumptions about Rich's thinking as a writer. The exercise might seem a bit silly, but I do think it defends the burning slaves as lawful and not necessarily evil. Hell, I can go further and say that you don't even know that the letters really were comprised of burning slaves, but that's much less fun.

[Ubab]

Great comic, Giant!

I've forgeted the Barbed Devil. He can be of some help, specially to Belkar.

I've forgeted too that :durkon: has unlimited Dominate person. But, at dusk, Durkon might stop to pray for spells and he should be surprised by not being answered by Thor, but the Norse goddess of death (who has no soul because of the deaths in combat against diseases...).

Roy was doing all that we must expect from him (with some awesome cleaves), including keeping Belkar alive. That's the way GOOD people act.

:roy: "Kick up as much sand" -> Most viable way to get some cover.

The dinos appear to be megaraptors (from SRD), but by the way Roy killed the first, more probably are some houseruled large Deinonychus-like mount. Or "warhorses" that appear as dinosaur, just for the taste. I've used to do this kind of thing when DMing.

I'm just want V to appear and cast some protection spells in Belkar. This way we can take a revival of the Sexy Shoeless God of War :belkar:

Until V reappear (and get out of the ruins), we have the wands from Haley. Durkon should not stop the "dominating rule", so there'll be no help from his new staff.

Let's see what will happen next time. Almost can't wait!

And Tarquin is, really, trying to steal the post of great villain from Xykon!
---
English isn't my first language. Can you send me PM informing about possible mistakes.

[MikelaC1]

The Belkster needs to get into the fight. To heck with kicking up sand, they've got Mr. Scruffy, the epic cat in the worlds largest sandbox, he'll kick up enough cover on his own.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Clever defensive strategy by Roy. Sand for concealment:smallbiggrin:.

Since Durkon's a vampire and his alignment is Lawful Evil, which god does he worship? Thor?

Also I was going through the older comics, when i realized now that Durkon's alignment changed he could possibly cast Resurrection on one of the draketooth corpses successfully...If they hadn't been blown up along with the pyramid.:smallannoyed:.Still they have Girard's skeleton, so assuming he didn't die naturally there's a possibility.

Instead of a personal bias they now have direct opposition to their alignment, unlikely.

[Exeunt]

It just occurred to me that Durkon says he get "all but naught for spells" while holding the staff. So either he does not know how to access it, or he just plain forgot about it.

I'm hoping it's the latter and he gets to say "let's see what this thing can do". :smallbiggrin:

[warmachine]

There is one OotS member that is being held back and that is Vaarsuvius. He/she/it could re-appear and start lobbing fireballs but that'd be boring and we know Rich is a better writer than that. I predict and look forward to V's re-appearance and cleverness.

[super dark33]

Roy has boobies!

[Arrowstorm122]

Tarquin's only real delusion is assuming that he can displace Xykon to become the main villain of the comic.

He did get to be the main villain of the book. And really, it's more than 400 strips ago Azure City Battle happened, Xykon has not been doing much for a while. But I guess that will change now that he's finally teleported ahead of the Order.

[Bartle]

But seriously, Zyklon? :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

As hilarious as it is, did Tarquin just pull that name out of mid-air? As far as I know, he never heard the name "Xykon" before.Don't know if he heard "Xykon" before, but I recommend googling what he came up with.

[Coopenhagen21]

Love it. Tarquin is awesome. Not in a "I'm rooting for him way" because I'm completely against him at this point, but the fact that you made him so loathe-able to every one is very impressive.

I love how this strip re-affirms that while it won't be easy, it IS possible for the Order to win this fight.

I suspect one of two things:

1) V will return and his area-affect spells will help turn the tide quickly

2) Elan and Haley help out and after a long gruelling battle, the Order emerges victorious after the dust settles. Actually, this can happen even with V returning to help. I hope it's a full party reunion that basically shows T that he needs to stay out of the Order's way.

[Arrowstorm122]

There is one OotS member that is being held back and that is Vaarsuvius. He/she/it could re-appear and start lobbing fireballs but that'd be boring and we know Rich is a better writer than that. I predict and look forward to V's re-appearance and cleverness.

That would seem like the obvious thing, but V is still having problems with her genocide. Killing soldiers probably won't make her feel better about it. :smalltongue:

[BlackDragonKing]

Tarquin's only real delusion is assuming that he can displace Xykon to become the main villain of the comic.

Keep in mind that everyone in a story assumes it's THEIR story. The fact that Roy is right doesn't mean that everyone else who's wrong is delusional.

Ian thinks this is his story about his family's struggle to end Tarquin's tyranny and get rich; he's wrong, but he's not delusional because he isn't aware he's a minor running subplot for Haley's character development into a more trusting person.

Redcloak thinks he's the hero of this story, ending divinely-sanctioned oppression of his people and ushering in a golden age for goblinoids. He's wrong, and he's lying to himself about his methods being the only way, but he's not delusional, he's just looking at this from a different perspective.

We, the readers, KNOW who the main characters are and who the heroes and villains are. Genre savvy or not, we shouldn't forget that the characters in the comic do not get that luxury, and the sort of person that establishes evil empires isn't delusional for assuming they're probably the most important villain around when the only competition they know of is someone with a vague plan to destroy the world. Tarquin has absolutely no reason from his perspective to think that he's a sub-villain or that Roy's journey is more important than Elan's opposition to him. Practically everyone thinks the story's about them; that's just natural.

[Chantelune]

It's actually quite interesting seeing how much effort Roy is putting into keeping Belkar alive, given his attitude a couple of dozen strips back. Also good to see those vampire powers are coming in handy.


Roy is pragmatic if anything. Because he know Belkar will die at some point and don't care much doesn't mean he will let him die if he can't help it. And he knows that until then, Belkar will still be an asset for the team, as shown by the fact he's trying to figure out a way to get him back in shape so he can actually start trouncing people again.

Great strip, by the way. That last pannel clearly rule out the "escape through the rift" theory, unless they somehow manage to cut their way through, but unllikely with Belkar in such a poor shape.

[Throknor]

Fireball
Chained lightning
Meteor swarm

Yep. Nothing a high level magic user can do against a bunch of mooks.

[Alaris]

Since Durkon's a vampire and his alignment is Lawful Evil, which god does he worship? Thor?

None. He is non-theistic. Durkon simply draws his power from the evil realms, as opposed to a specific Deity.


It just occurred to me that Durkon says he get "all but naught for spells" while holding the staff. So either he does not know how to access it, or he just plain forgot about it.

I'm hoping it's the latter and he gets to say "let's see what this thing can do". :smallbiggrin:

Chances are, he needs a bit of time to figure out how to use it, or he'd be casting random spells from it, rather than specific ones.

He wouldn't want to suddenly blow up his own party by accident, would he?

[Shining Wrath]

Tarquin is now officially a fool, just like Nale.
He sees but a part of the picture, and notices that he's in that part, and assumes it must be the most important part of the picture because he's in it.
I am assuming he's going to die at the hands of those he has assumed were not important characters. Such as (but not limited to):


Xykon
Sabine
Ian Starshine
Haley Starshine
Roy, Durkon, and Belkar



I wouldn't be surprised if some plot twist requires Xykon to come back (maybe to find his pelvis?) and open a largish can of whoop.

[Caex]

Zyklon! With a Z! Outrage!

[WeLoveFireballs]

Tarquin's only real delusion is assuming that he can displace Xykon to become the main villain of the comic.

That's not a delusion, its an assumption based on little evidence. He has no idea what Xykon is capable of and he DOES have immense power at his disposal, its not unreasonable for him to assume Xykon is just a crackpot 19-20 level wizard (a decent challenge for what he's seen of the order) who thinks he can destroy the world rather than a pair of epic level geniuses who certainly can.

[faustin]

There are such people that think they can manipulate/predict the GM because they know some tropes?

Ever heard of Mr. Welch?

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/750_things_Mr._Welch_can_no_longer_do_in_a_RPG

[eras10]

As someone who didn't think the last strip and Tarquin's... change in emphasis.. was introduced carefully enough given prior ones, I should probably mention that I had a lot of fun with today's strip.

As I've said before, I think Tarquin is severely misreading human psychology by thinking that Elan will meekly march off after Zyklon after Tarquin kills all his friends. But people like Tarquin, even smart and people-savvy ones, make that mistake all the time, so that mistake of Tarquin's is okay with his character as I saw it.

I'll have to wait for the book to come out before I can see how I feel about recent events in the big comic-flow perspective. But a good massive battle scene tends to make me mollified and cheerful :smallsmile:

[Zephyr1011]

Tarquin's character has become significantly less awesome lately. I hope that the Giant isn't doing this because he's about to kill him off, like he did with Malack. Malack went from an interesting character, to a bloodthirsty vampire who wanted to kill an entire continent before being killed himself in quick succession. And now Tarquin has gone from a pragmatic and Affably Evil character, to one who framed Haley's Dad and is trying to kill half the Order. Although, if Tarquin dies, now that Nale's gone, who's going to fill the role of b-Villain?

[internisus]

Tarquin's only real delusion is assuming that he can displace Xykon to become the main villain of the comic.

That isn't fair. Tarquin hasn't had the perspective we have in reading the comic from the start. He has lived his own megalomaniacal life instead of following the protagonists on their adventure. Granted, the man lacks for humility, but can he really be expected from his limited point of view to realize his unimportance relative to Xykon?

Especially considering how slavishly Tarquin has followed and even set up story conventions! Xykon doesn't make an effort on that front; he can't even be bothered to learn the hero's name! How can someone like that be the true villain of the piece? Tarquin's fatal flaw isn't a delusion in service of his ego but rather a myopia that stems from his need for the world to make sense.

[Amphiox]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

Is that a common thing in D&D games? When a character dies and can't be resurrected, a player just re-rolls a new character that is identical to the last one?


D&D is weird. So a high-level party can spend several hours slaughtering dinosaurs and expect to survive?

That's a play mechanic common to all RPGs. Once you level up to a certain point, which varies depending on the game, your character is essentially a demi-god.

[Xelbiuj]

I'd like to add to people dissing Tarquin for underestimating Xykon remember this:

Tarquin almost single handedly beat the entire Order (Sans V) who are themselves some of the highest level good guys in the known world.
. . . speculative text . . .


No, not getting annihilated in a single round isn't the same thing as almost beating the Order. None of them were taken out, only 1 spell had been attempted and luckily for T-boy, he rolled a save . . . if Tarquin was THAT bad ass they wouldn't have had to of fled after Durkon's Holy word.

[Arrowstorm122]

Tarquin's character has become significantly less awesome lately. I hope that the Giant isn't doing this because he's about to kill him off, like he did with Malack. Malack went from an interesting character, to a bloodthirsty vampire who wanted to kill an entire continent before being killed himself in quick succession. And now Tarquin has gone from a pragmatic and Affably Evil character, to one who framed Haley's Dad and is trying to kill half the Order. Although, if Tarquin dies, now that Nale's gone, who's going to fill the role of b-Villain?

Tarquin has become a less mysterious character because we now know more about him, but he hasn't changed at all.

Is that a common thing in D&D games? When a character dies and can't be resurrected, a player just re-rolls a new character that is identical to the last one?



It's not a campaign, so no. Or well maybe, depends on how the GM wants to handle it.

[Metahuman1]

Why, oh why, couldn't one of them tell him "Mid boss? A level 23 before LA Lich Sorcerer with full access to epic spells and a variety of custom magics accompanied by a 20th level cleric and a still unknown monster that's got powers that definatly put it into epic CR's, and that's your idea of a Mid Boss?!!"

[Amphiox]

Looks like Tarquin has confirmed my worst fears about him. In calling Zyklon a sub-boss he has totally lost any connection to what this narrative actually is like or his own place in it.

Tarquin is ignoring both the fact that his empire isn't even a world-spanning threat (and the gates are) and the fact that he has come into the middle of a narrative.

In his mind, he thinks the narrative began when Elan showed up in his Empire. Everything before it was a prologue.


Yeah, everything he says and thinks is based off the huge fundamental error he is making by thinking he is the main villian in the comic. When in reality hes another Samantha or Kubota, he just looks more powerful because the Order are higher level than when they fought the other two.

Man, he is going to die really anti-climantically by the end of this book, I can't wait for V to disintegrate him, as he dies he realizes that his immediate death can only occur if he is in fact the sidequest.

Hmm. Tarquin's last words:

"I... I... was.... the mid-boss....? X-X"

[Aurini]

Great Cleave is one of my favourite feats, but due to its nature - the requirement that it be against enemy cheesers with low enough hit-points to die from a single blow - it almost always gets used during the fun side-quests, never during the epic, "world hangs in the balance, we might lose this one" situations.

Giant - you just introduced Great Cleave into a battle that's scary. Kudos, sir; your storytelling is amazing.

[Yoyoyo]

Can't wait for the Belkar kicking sand in someone's face joke.

Great comic. Don't know what to think about Xykon v. Tarquin and who's the biggest bad guy, but Tarquin's gotten this point wrong before:

In Haleo & Juelan, Tarquin thought the story was supposed to climax in a show down between him and Haleo's Dad, not realizing it was a romance. Could be making the same mistake here, presuming its him v. Elan that's most important, and not Roy v. Xykon.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

Bingo, and it's what I couldn't help but think about when I read this comic. A few months back, two of the PCs (Kurt the barbarian dwarf and Shiny the beguiler gnome) in a game I'm playing in got pancaked by ogres significantly above our level. Of course, we took it hard and our characters took it worse. Our immediate plan was to return to town and get them raised, even though it took pawning most of Shiny and Kurt's gear and nearly half of my character's gear (She gave it willingly and so did I. Shiny ended up saving her hide in combat and I'm playing an unusually generous rogue).

Anyway, it took longer than expected to return to town and revive the characters, and Shiny's player ended up joking around that he was, instead of reviving Shiny, going to play a halfling sorcerer named Tiny with basically the same character quirks. It took a moment for me to realize he was kidding, but when I asked him about it (especially since some players do this), he said he'd rather have Shiny back than a new character with his abilities. Because the character may function the same in the party, but it wouldn't be Shiny anymore. Just like I'd want to keep my character even if she died. Sure I could just make another roguebuckler with a speech disorder, but she wouldn't be Natalia Bolts. Rob Redblade and Murkon Lightninghammer aren't Roy Greenhilt and Durkon Thundershield. And Tarquin's belief that they are shows just how evil and deranged he truly is, though he seems completely suave and sane at first glance.

[Alaris]

Is that a common thing in D&D games? When a character dies and can't be resurrected, a player just re-rolls a new character that is identical to the last one?

Well, it is a play on D&D games. People often tend to gravitate towards a certain type of character/class. So if their character dies, they make a new one of that class. (Also important to note that a character usually fills a role. If the Fighter dies... the player should make a new Fighter to fill that role).

So they end up magically 'coming across' another fighter-type character, likely similar to their previous one, played by the same PC.

[Arrowstorm122]

Hmm. Tarquin's last words:

"I... I... was.... the mid-boss....? X-X"

Tarquin would be a pointless character if he died before he became relevant to the Gates. Chekhov's Gun and all that.

[AKA_Bait]

Tarquin almost single handedly beat the entire Order (Sans V) who are themselves some of the highest level good guys in the known world. He's the leader of a party of high level adventurers, maybe level 20s, maybe even Epic level. And they have three Empires worth of resources and decades worth of experience and magic items.

Let's also not forget that Tarquin was toying with the Order in that fight.

[Amphiox]

so much for all the "they will dive into the rift to escape" theories

I'm enjoying how the Giant is jerking our expectations around with regards to going through the rift. With every new strip it's:

Going through the rift now? Nope.

Now? Nope.

Now? Nope.

How about now? Nope.

Just wait. When we've all decided that no, they're not going through the rift after all, the Giant will send them through the rift, in a manner no one expected....

[Evazan]

ETA: it's a gas that T has the nerve to call "Zyklon" a B-level villain!

Not sure if intentionally punny or just an aside... but Zyklon is the name of the poison gas that was used in Nazi death camps.

Also, what does Tarquin not get about "epic level lich sorcerer"?

[Khiron]

Umm.... Vaarsuvius?.... little help?

[AKA_Bait]

Umm.... Vaarsuvius?.... little help?

"All that it takes for evil to triumph is for a good elf to do nothing."

[Arrowstorm122]

"All that it takes for evil to triumph is for a good elf to do nothing."

Neutral elf.

[Shining Wrath]

I think that clinches it. Xykon is eventually going to kill Tarquin.

Someone Tarquin has dismissed as a bit player will do him in. X is a good bet.

[Amphiox]

Tarquin would be a pointless character if he died before he became relevant to the Gates. Chekhov's Gun and all that.

T dying as a pointless character with a fitting conclusion to his narrative arc.

But no one said those last words can't come after he became relevant to the Gates....

[Arrowstorm122]

Not sure if intentionally punny or just an aside... but Zyklon is the name of the poison gas that was used in Nazi death camps.

Also, what does Tarquin not get about "epic level lich sorcerer"?

Tarquin is running a continent, a whole empire. Xykon is an adventure party himself currently, and Tarquin has one of those too.


T dying as a pointless character with a fitting conclusion to his narrative arc.

But no one said those last words can't come after he became relevant to the Gates....

It just needs to be somebody else than Elan that kills him. Or even if Elan is the one doing it, it will be after Tarquin realizes he's Elan's main villain, but he didn't succeed in making Elan the main hero.

Actually, Rich said a new side would be introduced in this book in the Gate struggle, which is obviously Tarquin, so I figure Tarquin will realize how important the actual plot is and then travel to the gate to hijack it from Xykon or whatever.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm enjoying how the Giant is jerking our expectations around with regards to going through the rift. With every new strip it's:

Going through the rift now? Nope.

Now? Nope.

Now? Nope.

How about now? Nope.

Just wait. When we've all decided that no, they're not going through the rift after all, the Giant will send them through the rift, in a manner no one expected....

In Order of the Stick comic, Rift Jumps You! They'll be trying to NOT go into the rift and it'll move ...

[rman]

It's quite interesting how the soldiers still advance to the guy who's cutting them down by the dozens. That's what I call discipline.

It's Tarquin's army.

The guys mounted on Trex's will both lead and be the rear of the charge.

[Amphiox]

Given the extensive Star Wars referencing, Tossing in some B5 would be a good sendoff.

I'd prefer that, actually. Otherwise Tarquin's story will close with an Ewok Party. And we don't want that now, do we? Yub yub!

Just imagine Belkar, when his time's finally up, giving a warped version of Marcus Cole's "I AM A RANGER!" speech....

But it would have to be really warped or else it'd be totally out of character for Belkar....

[HandofShadows]

Roy proves he can kickmajor *** and Elan again proves hom much he has grown. Roy is working hard at keeping Belkar alive as well.

[Caex]

I haven't seen anyone asking the *real* question here: Is there any chance that anticlimactic dramatic revelation guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) is going to make it out of this alive?

[Gift Jeraff]

The army is going to retreat into the Rift and get help from V.


Well, that destroys the last shreds of my theory that Tarquin was affected by Nale's death. Never mind. He's badass anyway. And this strip is the most amazing one since Nale got Tarquin's point.

But seriously, Zyklon? :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

As hilarious as it is, did Tarquin just pull that name out of mid-air? As far as I know, he never heard the name "Xykon" before. His guess is pretty accurate, as a matter of fact.

Elan mentioned Xykon last strip and Haley mentioned him in the strip before that. Elan also mentioned him after the slave burning, saying he's no better than Kubota, Xykon, or Nale.

[Amphiox]

I must say that the intense care Roy is taking on keeping Belkar alive really counts as a Crowning Moment of Awesome for him, both in the fact that he is doing it, and in the intelligent manner in which he is doing it.

And Elan's little speech to Tarquin is another one of his random*-flashes-of-impressive-wisdom that he has displayed repeatedly at various points in the narrative.

*Ok, not actually *random*. It's pretty consistently whenever Elan is under emotional stress of some kind and has no teammate to bail him out. Kind of a Crouching Moron Hidden Badass sort of deal.

[:-)]

OK, Tarquin just sealed his fate: He is going to be killed by either: Belkar, V or Team Evil in a most anticlimatic way possible.

[Yoyoyo]

"All that it takes for evil to triumph is for a good elf to do nothing."

That's awful and awesome all at once.

[Arrowstorm122]

I must say that the intense care Roy is taking on keeping Belkar alive really counts as a Crowning Moment of Awesome for him, both in the fact that he is doing it, and in the intelligent manner in which he is doing it.

And Elan's little speech to Tarquin is another one of his random*-flashes-of-impressive-wisdom that he has displayed repeatedly at various points in the narrative.

*Ok, not actually *random*. It's pretty consistently whenever Elan is under emotional stress of some kind and has no teammate to bail him out. Kind of a Crouching Moron Hidden Badass sort of deal.

People are too happy to use TV Tropes around here.

[Shining Wrath]

Huh? Nothing Tarquin said implied he was putting his own people in the party. He's saying they live in a world where when a PC dies, you go to the tavern and find the new PC, who is often exactly the same as the old PC with the serial numbers filed off.

Devil's Advocate: If Tarquin forces such a swap to occur by killing Roy, Belkar, and Durkon, are they not Tarquin's choices as much as Elan's? Elan enters tavern, lo and behold! there's a fighter, a ranger, and an cleric - didn't Tarquin effectively chose those PC's?

[137beth]

Wow...


Take that, all the people who said the dinosaurs would be really hard to beat!

[Sir. Knowsalot]

I wonder what would happen if Elan went and called Tarquin the B-level villain straight to his face?

[Mike Havran]

Elan mentioned Xykon last strip and Haley mentioned him in the strip before that. Elan also mentioned him after the slave burning, saying he's no better than Kubota, Xykon, or Nale.Oh, that's true. Whoops :smallredface:

[Quorothorn]

Roy is awesome. That is all from me for the moment.

[Exeunt]

I wonder what would happen if Elan went and called Tarquin the B-level villain straight to his face?

He'd get Nale'd ?

[Forikroder]

He'd get Nale'd ?

it doesnt matter to Tarquin what other people THINK he knows whats true so why bother wasting time on other peoples flawed views?

gotta say though Kudos to roy for keeping such a clear head

[Marlowe]

Great comic, Giant!

I've forgeted the Barbed Devil. He can be of some help, specially to Belkar.



Odd we didn't see more of it in the fight (as a combat asset); but yet not really since it barely exists as a character. And the strip is all about how the main characters react to a desperate situation. Having a summoned fiend getting panel time disembowelling mooks would have been a distraction.

Zooming in, there's a rather odd, scarecrow-looking figure in the last panel on the opposite side of the ring of dominated soldiers from Durkon and Roy. I'm presuming that's the fiend. Though it looks nothing like it. It's too strange to be anything else.

[littlebum2002]

So is the Order going to go find Murkon Lightninghammer so he can Ressurect Durkon?

[ThesaurusRex757]

Great update, Giant.

Seems like its time for a Big Damn Hero moment from V.

[MelTorefas]

Disagree. Burning slaves to make the name "Elan" isn't lawful as far as I am aware, and it's not necessary to create order.


It is possible to view the burning slaves as something Tarquin needed to do to reveal his role to his son, which needed to occur for dramatic order and to move their story forward. This is rather circular reasoning, but when a character is so strongly motivated by his awareness of story structure it is difficult to avoid that!

I would say this is slightly missing the point. Tarquin didn't burn slaves. He burnt ESCAPED slaves. Punishing slaves for daring to try to escape is a very Lawful Evil thing to do. Sure it served a narrative purpose as well, but it is not out of character from an alignment perspective.

[Edit: Clarified]

[Coldwind]

It is time for Vaarsuvius!

Empowered Chain Lightning + Delayed Blast Fireball = clear way to the Rift.

IFCC should release her I think, or the other minutes will be wasted for sure.

[Bartle]

Not sure if intentionally punnyWell, at least someone got *part* of the joke (though on further research I should've made an "energy drain" pun or something rather than saying that T had "nerve")

[cctrackstar]

And how do the hell guys feel about the balance of this particular battle? Don't they want chaos to reign? If Elan's pappy wins this doesn't that solidify his hold on the country by eliminating the majority of the only party that wants to remove his hold? Doesn't that go against their self proclaimed desire for nobody to win? Or does that not matter being that he is a B villan? All I'm saying is that it might be possible for them to get involved, or for them to help V turn the tide. Maybe v comes back interestingly close to 'daddy'? or maybe they loan him a spirit or two? I keep thinking that they will suddenly realize that they have kept him for too long and thus allow him more time with his uber spirits.

[Porthos]

Sad thing is, that DOES describe an awful lot of D&D games I've played. Except we usually skip the 'go to the tavern' step.

The Gamemaster: Guys, please! I want you to roleplay this. Remember you've never met this guy before, the last guys you met tried to kill you, and you're standing in the ruins of an evil, cursed castle. Just act appropriately.
Magellan: Hello, I'm Magellan, a traveling mage. I notice your group has no wizard.
Rogar, the Barbarian: You seem trustworthy. Would you care to join us in our noble quest?
Magellan: Yes. Yes I would.
-The Gamers

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

Also: LOVE the reference to the recruitment montage in On the Origin of PCs, and all the goofy rejects...

Tarquin was also just one letter off...
From Xyklon the Consequential, from Start of Darkness.

[Silverraptor]

The flaws of Elan's Dad's logic is he thinks he's the ultimate "Big Bad" of the comic. He's not, he's the sub-villain, not Xykon. Also, if the group manages to live this, they'll get a much needed experience boost.:smallcool:

[Amphiox]

People are too happy to use TV Tropes around here.

Just because TV Tropes gave the ideas specific names that some of us choose to use doesn't mean those ideas are not valid, or did not predate TV Tropes, and are, in fact, completely independent of the TV Tropes website.

You may as well complain that people are too happy to use the Oxford English Dictionary around here.

[cheesecake]

Nice mid day surprise!

Survive until Dusk!

[Zea mays]

Seriously cheering for Roy here.
Also, by association, the strip title got that song "Don't stop believing hold on to that feelin..." stuck in my head.


Not sure if intentionally punny or just an aside... but Zyklon is the name of the poison gas that was used in Nazi death camps.

Also, what does Tarquin not get about "epic level lich sorcerer"?

Zyklon B was the full name of the gas in question.

I choose to believe that this means the Giant is also a fan of radiolab.

[Shatteredtower]

Isn't it a bit much that Roy can constantly one shot five people at the same time?
In which way. Mechanically, not so much, as opponents that can be dropped so easily are ones you want the party to clear away quickly, lest a fight drag out to become boring for everyone at the table. Dramatically, again, not so much, as it can be very entertaining to watch one warrior single-handedly wade through an army. Realistically, maybe, but would the realistic fight scene serve this story well?

[Shred-Bot]

It just occurred to me that Durkon says he get "all but naught for spells" while holding the staff. So either he does not know how to access it, or he just plain forgot about it.

I'm hoping it's the latter and he gets to say "let's see what this thing can do". :smallbiggrin:

Well... we know the staff holds Protection from Daylight, the "skip the 3 days and arise as a vampire right MEOW" spell, and Malack's Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell. It might not have anything useful for direct combat at all.

[HalfTangible]

Roy's wounds disappear for a panel there near the end.

[ti'esar]

Just because TV Tropes gave the ideas specific names that some of us choose to use doesn't mean those ideas are not valid, or did not predate TV Tropes, and are, in fact, completely independent of the TV Tropes website.

You may as well complain that people are too happy to use the Oxford English Dictionary around here.

Amen, although with the caveat that using the names it made up without context can be annoying.

[AKA_Bait]

Well... we know the staff holds Protection from Daylight, the "skip the 3 days and arise as a vampire right MEOW" spell, and Malack's Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell. It might not have anything useful for direct combat at all.

In fact, it's likely not to have any combat oriented spells. It seems to be set up as a holder of "I'm not likely need this enough to prepare it" utility spells. All three of those spells we know of wouldn't ordinarily be used (remember the making the mummies is something Malak usually frowned on and he hadn't made a new vampire in ages), or backup for spells usually prepared multiple times in case of emergency.

[Bartle]

Just because TV Tropes gave the ideas specific names that some of us choose to use doesn't mean those ideas are not valid, or did not predate TV Tropes, and are, in fact, completely independent of the TV Tropes website.

You may as well complain that people are too happy to use the Oxford English Dictionary around here.1. the OED doesn't reek of "inside joke" elitism
2. people can use the OED all they want and they still have to build their own conceptions, rather than find the off-the-shelf one that fits the best (and then subsequently argue to death over whether it *does* fit best or not)

People are too happy to use TV Tropes around here.

[Dakaran]

Oh man, this is getting gooooooood! Loved Roy cutting a raptor and rider straight up. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey Watcher]

You know, even if everything goes exactly Tarquin's way here, it would still (from his perspective) be a major problem that Elan's build is pretty heavy on support abilities. You'd still have Rob Redblade, Murkon Lightninghammer, and Skelter Sourstalk doing all the front and center fighting while Elan supports with songs and Bard spells. Yeah, it changes a little in that Elan is nominally in charge, but he'd still be leading from the rear, not the front like Tarquin wants.

Unless he plans on following Elan around and orchestrating things such that Elan feels he has no choice but to develop his hand-to-hand combat skills. Which actually sounds in character for him. :smallconfused:

[Orange Knight]

Wow...


Take that, all the people who said the dinosaurs would be really hard to beat!

We've not seen the large therapods in action yet. Those T.rexes or Allosauruses are going to make a mess unless Roy's Great Cleavage can reach them. Which is possible if he stands on a mountain of corpses, I suppose.

I like how a huge number of troops are between the order and the rift now. Makes things much more interesting. Though I really, really expect V soon.

Oh dear Tarquin, megalomania now? You really should know you're the supporting villain of the piece, look how tooled up Elan was when he met you. You didn't hand him a dramatic defeat or anything! Plus the evil father (especially with all the Star Wars references) is never the Big Bad, though they are normally charismatic, which you are. Guess he's just too Wrong Genre Savvy. Oh well, enjoy your anticlimatic death, you Magnificent B******

[Exeunt]

In fact, it's likely not to have any combat oriented spells. It seems to be set up as a holder of "I'm not likely need this enough to prepare it" utility spells. All three of those spells we know of wouldn't ordinarily be used (remember the making the mummies is something Malak usually frowned on and he hadn't made a new vampire in ages), or backup for spells usually prepared multiple times in case of emergency.

Like restoration?

[Shred-Bot]

I haven't seen anyone asking the *real* question here: Is there any chance that anticlimactic dramatic revelation guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) is going to make it out of this alive?

I certainly hope so! He has way too much pizzazz to end up as Great Cleave Victim #87.

Ideally he'll follow the Order to Kraagor's Gate and show up just as they meet Xykon, shouting "MALACK WAS A VAMPIRE THE WHOLE TIME!"

[Forikroder]

It is time for Vaarsuvius!

Empowered Chain Lightning + Delayed Blast Fireball = clear way to the Rift.

IFCC should release her I think, or the other minutes will be wasted for sure.

maybe there purposely keeping him for the longest time they could (instead of burning one of the shorter times) becuase they wanted the order to take a few losses?

[Amphiox]

I do not even think one even needs to know that TV Tropes exist at all to get the gist of what "Crowning moment of awesome" and "Crouching moron hidden badass" means.

I certainly did not when I first encountered those terms. I was quite familiar with the first one long before I ever looked at the TV Tropes website.

And the same is true for most of the topics on that site. The meanings are obvious in the name, and the name is often very close to, or identical to, the "official" or "common" appellations for those particular narrative conventions.

Indeed, the only familiarity one needs to understand most of those terms is with the... Oxford English Dictionary, or its equivalent.

(In fact, I am pretty sure that "crowning moment of awesome" in particular long predates TV Tropes, and that site merely used the common already well known phrase. What TV Tropes could be credited with was coining new variants of that phrase, such as "crowning music of awesome", and "crowning moment of heartwarming", and "crowning moment of funny", but again, anyone already familiar with the original phrase would have no trouble understand what any of these new phrases meant even if they had never heard of TV Tropes.)

[Crustypeanut]

I may not like V because s/he's an elf.. but man I'm hoping s/he'd show up so we'd see some wizardy explosions.

If there was ever a time it would be to be an Evocation Wizard, now is the time.

[Traab]

Yay for Elan!

And Tarquin, it's not your son's win if you're putting your own people into the party. Doesn't work that way.

He isnt doing that. He is saying there will be adventurers in the very next tavern he enters coincidentally of the perfect level and party makeup to join them. Oddly enough, they will have distressingly similar names to the people who are about to die here. Its making fun of D&D games where when there is a pc killed, a new one shows up and isnt very inventively worked on. As an example, here I am playing Traab the human monk. I die and the next town they meet Trab the human unarmed swordsage or whatever.

As for the comic, hell freaking yeah party! I fully expect a full party rendition of "I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!" To happen here. The Order isnt a bunch of mooks her tarquin, they are a bunch of mid to high level characters and they will carve right through most of your mook riddled army. Once elan and haley get there the slaughter will increase further, and assuming V gets let back into the game. . . well high level wizards have fun when they can unleash wide area destruction. If none of tarquins party gets involved, he is going to lose half his army trying to bring them down.

[luna the cat]

And how do the hell guys feel about the balance of this particular battle? Don't they want chaos to reign? If Elan's pappy wins this doesn't that solidify his hold on the country by eliminating the majority of the only party that wants to remove his hold? Doesn't that go against their self proclaimed desire for nobody to win? Or does that not matter being that he is a B villan? All I'm saying is that it might be possible for them to get involved, or for them to help V turn the tide. Maybe v comes back interestingly close to 'daddy'? or maybe they loan him a spirit or two? I keep thinking that they will suddenly realize that they have kept him for too long and thus allow him more time with his uber spirits.

Well, if they had a view of chaos that was say, similar to that of discordianism, they would welcome an evil tyrannical empire. Something along the lines of, attempts to impose order for their own sake actually INCREASE chaos. Think for instance of revolutionary movements, the dire poverty and desperation that the evil empire brings, and the death and warfare that maintaining the empire and expanding it ensures. Aside from imposing narrative structure, it might be that the Archfiends see a continental empire and all the drama and intrigue it brings as creating more chaos than order.

Not only that, but it doesn't threaten the actual existence of the world (and, now that Malach is gone, might dissolve after it's creation and create even MORE death and chaos than before it was even started). So the archfiends would either not care or welcome it.

[Porthos]

A nice little bit that had a double joke:

Tarquin saying "Zyklon" is a reference to the constant misspelling/mispronuciation of Xykon's name. So much so that it became a running gag in the comic itself.

But it's also a sign that Tarquin is so dismissive of Xykon that he can't be bothered to remember just what his name was. It fits in perfectly with the "Willing to let the world be destroyed, or conqured, or whatever" attitude displayed earlier. :smallsmile:

And, perhaps on a third level, it is the same as Xykon not being able to remember the names of unimportant people he killed/met along the way. :smallwink:

[Xelbiuj]

I may not like V because s/he's an elf.. but man I'm hoping s/he'd show up so we'd see some wizardy explosions.

If there was ever a time it would be to be an Evocation Wizard, now is the time.

"I can't believe you kept the wizard hidden and in reserve for so long Elan, I'm actually impressed. Laurin, you know what to do." ~T

[Snails]

Love seeing Roy employ good tactics. Belkar messing up ranged attacks is better than killing 4 or 5 mooks a round. I see the big dinos seem to be hanging back -- moving them in will only get their riders dominated.

Reminds a bit of the movie Hero, where the high-level would be righteous assassins fight straight through an entire army, right down the main boulevard of the capital, the enemy soldiers falling like wheat. Quite beautiful, really.

Not sure what V could contribute here. S/he does not usually carry the best spells for this situation. What they REALLY need is a... hey! Haley! Time to try out those wands.

[Bartle]

I do not even think one even needs to know that TV Tropes exist at all to get the gist of what "Crowning moment of awesome" and "Crouching moron hidden badass" means.

I certainly did not when I first encountered those terms. I was quite familiar with the first one long before I ever looked at the TV Tropes website.

And the same is true for most of the topics on that site. The meanings are obvious in the name, and the name is often very close to, or identical to, the "official" or "common" appellations for those particular narrative conventions.

Indeed, the only familiarity one needs to understand most of those terms is with the... Oxford English Dictionary, or its equivalent.I have no idea what "Fridge Logic" or "Epileptic Trees" or "Idiot Ball" mean, yet people still throw them around as if these were TV Tropes forums.

Why not use your own words, leave behind all of the added associations (and opportunity for terms quibbling) of the TT terms, and have no doubt that you're communicating directly and effectively?

[Draz74]

I had a bunch of comments in mind, but most of them have been made numerous times already. (Time for a big entrance for V ... love Durkon's DR-based apathy towards crossbow bolts ... nice to see Roy getting a chance to shine ... I wish Elan had punched Tarquin in the face ... Tarquin thinks Xykon is the B-villain ...)

I will say, this is going to go over very well for Roy at his next afterlife interview. Belkar is the teammate he has the least personal affection for, the one who is least useful in surviving the current conflict, and the one who's prophecied to die within a few days anyway. And yet Roy is putting his most valuable resources towards keeping the little brute alive, because it's his duty as a leader. Awesome.

And as to why Belkar didn't already die from the crossbow bolts and a few natural 20s: evidently very few of the soldiers chose him as their initial target for attacks.

I still wouldn't be surprised, suddenly, if Belkar's death does come out of this scene, rather than him getting a Restoration spell after dusk. (Too similar to #611?) Perhaps Belkar, and only Belkar, ends up going through the Rift?

And for people who are predicting who will destroy Tarquin in the end (Xykon, V ...) -- I'm still calling Sabine. Definitely.

[Ezekiel]

Not sure what V could contribute here. S/he does not usually carry the best spells for this situation.

Most of V's spells are for exactly this kind of situation.

[Snails]

"I can't believe you kept the wizard hidden and in reserve for so long Elan, I'm actually impressed. Laurin, you know what to do." ~T

They are both glass cannons. It is quite plausible for V to vaporize Laurin in a single round, especially if she is not fully buffed up. And vice versa.

[Xelbiuj]

And for people who are predicting who will destroy Tarquin in the end (Xykon, V ...) -- I'm still calling Sabine. Definitely.

A B-lister getting taken out by a B-lister would be great, especially if her actions are against the IFCC's orders. Unlikely that she would be able to though.

[Ninja_13]

I have no idea what "Fridge Logic" or "Epileptic Trees" or "Idiot Ball" mean, yet people still throw them around as if these were TV Tropes forums.

Why not use your own words, leave behind all of the added associations (and opportunity for terms quibbling) of the TT terms, and have no doubt that you're communicating directly and effectively?

A lot of "TV Tropes" terms were actually terms made by people discussing a particular trope both online and IRL precisely so that people could discuss a particular point without using your own words that could cause confusion, long before TV Tropes was even a thing.

If you don't know what these terms mean when you encounter them, use context to understand what it means or look them up, just like you would with an English word you don't know. Don't place blame upon others when you can just as easily put it upon yourself.