Adversarial Nations & Factions (IE Cheliax, Karrnath, etc.)

[EccentricOwl]

In the Eberron RPG setting, the nation of Karrnath is the obvious 'bad guy'. Obsessed with law, order, conquest, and undeath, they may be the rightful heir to the five nations but they're still an easy choice for a villain.

The same goes for the tragic empire of Cheliax in the Pathfinder Chronicles world of Golarion, which turned to diabolic worship in exchange for stability.

There are countless other 'bad guy' and go-to nations in RPG material and fiction in general; Nazis and Prussia often get a bad rap in 19th and 20th century fiction, frequently attaining diabolical or technological edges.

I'm working on a historical fantasy book (sorry, it's for a role-playing game!), and I plan to release it under the CC license. It's set in a fantastical version of our real world in the late 1600s.

In my opinion, it's important to provide some version of these tropes and cliches to help GMs and storytellers put their stories into context... but I'm having difficulty coming up with such an obvious adversary.

In my opinion, making it a European nation is the easy (mayhaps... too easy) solution. I'm curious if any of you GITP guys had any thoughts. I want to have a faction that can be used as an adversary without too much difficulty, but still remains in the realms of historical plausibility. (Factoring things like some light magic and fantasy races.)

[Weltall_BR]

A merchant company, maybe? Imagine a corrupt East India Company that enslaves the natives of the lands they explore while controlling the politicians of their home land through bribing and extorsion. Think The Heart of Darkness, by Joseph Conrad, but a little bit darker. Actually, someone has already done that -- Coppola, with Apocalypse Now.

[Malachi Lemont]

If you need a powerful, corrupt nation in the 17th century, look no farther than the Mughal Empire. The Muslim conquerors oppressed India's local population and destroyed countless Hindu temples, while building extravagant works like the Taj Mahal. And the name of one of their most famous emperors was.........

Akbar the Great!

[Yanagi]

If this is contiguous with your other post, a serious question: to what extent does your 1600s look like the actual 1600s geopolitically? Looking at the world in 1600:

China was in a dynastic slump; the Ottomans and Persians were being (comparatively) enlightened; Russia was having a civil war; the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was still on the upswing. Morocco was doing good from trading with Europe, Mali was doing bad because Morocco just conquered it. India was having a nice run of four generations of imperial religious liberalism, except Aurangzeb came along and got all fundamentalist, but his son dialed it right back. Japan was just firing up it's Edo period isolationism.

Western/ CentralEurope...well, the overseas empires were all horrific. Like Heart of Darkness (aka, what it was like in the actual Belgian Congo), but covering West Africa, South America, Central America, and the Caribbean, plus an assortment of spice islands in African and Asian waters. Slave lives were really cheap because the slave-produced goods were still luxuries, so the death tolls were enormous. I really don't know how to play that down. There was also a lot of ugliness involving the Reformation and Counter-Reformation: like the Inquisition...or the rotating series of purges performed by Henry VIII, Queen Mary, then Elizabeth II....and also military clashes between Protestant and Catholic nations.

I mean, if you're down for a bit of alt-history, the scariest nation on alt-Earth would be the alliance of Spain and England via the fruitful marriage of Philp II and Mary. I mean, undead Ivan the Terrible (d. 1584) or evil wizard Boris Gundonov have some cachet, as does Oda Nobunaga running roughshod across East Asia. But I think "the two largest, slave-having-est empires that also set a lot of folks on fire for praying wrong--and also have big issues with Jews because that's like mandatory when you're this crazy/evil--are going to join together to make imperial racist Voltron " wins hands down.

[Malachi Lemont]

I second the England-Spain alliance thing.

[EccentricOwl]

Mad props and big thanks for the help and feedback. :)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299919 - a thread I'm working on to created variations on real-world religions in the same setting (trying to pursue verisimilitdue.)

First of all, the merchant company? Obvious and awesome choice. The second I read it I was hitting myself in the head. "Duh! Pirates of the Caribbean did it!" The evil mega-corporation is nothing new, but it sees new life as a strange combination of government-run company, publicly-traded firm, and profit-obsessed private army. I'm thinking maybe a company with a particular flair for the theatrical and dramatic; taking cues from playwrights and the like.

Mughal Empire is another good one. Big, hostile, old (to the point that they could be toppled thanks to some timely PC intervention!) and threatening, yet still instillig a sense of grandeur and legitimacy. Sounds like the makings of a pretty sweet story.

@Yangi - "If you follow all the little laws, you can break the big ones."

No, I kid. I'm a history guy, but I don't want to bore any readers or players with minutiae or trivia. Suffice to say that it's fairly close - close enough that all the major wars and alliances are real, and in different sections I'm making sure to remind GMs that there's plenty of room for additional wars... the world is and was a warlike place!

Pretty much every overseas empire was terrible, that's an easy and obvious fact. That can kind of hard to stomach, though, especially in an RPG where even the morality has some objectivity. To that end, I had to make some historical concessions; portraying some states as more consistently good than they should be.

The Anglo-Spainish alliance has a lot of potential. I was talking in another form about how overused Spain can be as a villain, what with the rapid-fire conquest of South and Central America... but combining the two? That's a stroke of genius.

[EccentricOwl]

http://i.imgur.com/ytuWfbwl.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/ytuWfbw)

I figured 5 good 'go-to' threats would be enough, but I still crave your feedback!

The Atlantic Company is dedicated to profit; what began as a private endeavor has grown into the largest and most varied business venture centered in Hesperia. The goal of The Company is simple and twofold; establish trade ties to exploit new resources across the world, and manufacture a need for their resources.
The Atlantic Company (which has long since grown past its namesake, operating in every ocean on the planet) tries to keep a positive public image; people of many races are allowed to join and rise through the ranks of 'The Company' so long as they continue to contribute value and profit. As well, people of many races are brutally exploited in mines, plantations, or dangerous explorations that frequently end in death in a far-off jungle or tomb.


Keep your friends close...
-The Atlantic Company is not inherently evil, merely obsessed with profit - and is legitimately interested in exploration. Players can find them as willing investors for exploratory outfits.
-With many trading posts and respective colonies across the globe, the Company can be a useful excuse to have items in stores that match the same form and function as 'back home,' as well as a useful source of rumors and equipment.


...and your enemies closer.
-The Company is unscrupulous to the core. Factions can easily blossom and wither within its massive structure, and said factions are generally secret to the public and investors - the nobleman in one nation might never realize he's financing the assassination of kings and sultans in far-off lands, but the Atlantic Company might still pin the blame on him.
-Theft, warmongering, and profiteering; if there's a way to make money, they'll find it. Whether it's a tariff negotiation with a chamberlain or the razing of an uncooperative village, profit can be its own reward.


The Mughals are, to their friends, the rightful rulers of Indra by right of conquest. They are enlightened, spreading their religion to the pagan masses with a history of leniency and alliance. To their enemies, they are an obsessive empire, about to enter terminal decline due to inept rulership.
The Mughals control the vast majority of Indra, and have for centuries. Traditionally, they supported religious liberalism, learning, stability, and massive construction efforts. While the latter was undoubtedly on the backs of the peasantry, the former kept harmony in the realm... until recently.
A series of quick successions leaves a young and inept Emperor on the throne. The Mughal Emperor has initiated a series of damning decrees; the destruction of local temples, dozens of wars of conquest, and an antagonization towards native Indrans. While their decline seems inevitble in the face of compounding popular pressure, for now, they rule with an iron fist.

Keep your friends close...
+The Mughals are still the sovereign rulers of the realm, and remain interested in the world outside Indra. Explorers or craftsmen of any creed or race may have safe passage under older laws in order to help the inward-looking Mughals search for something to inspire their next project.


...and your enemies closer.
-A war is ongoing with the nativist Maratha movement to the south. Somehow, despite superior numbers, a massive treasury, and many foreign allies, the Mughals are unable to obliterate the upstart independents. They my resort to dark methods to eliminate the resistance; what are a few deaths among millions?


The Kingdom of Miquelon (France and its vassals)
Other nations may suffer rumors of black magic, cults, or unfit kings. The Kingdom of Miquelon needs no such rumors to be feared or loved. Its population is the largest in Hesperia; its armies are constantly on the move and frequently outmatch its counterparts. Only grand coalitions have henceforth kept it in check, but even these fail as it annexes small states on its eastern borders and grows in the New World.
Miquelon does not explicitly attempt aggression, but its policies have made it a rogue state and pariah. Its king tolerates neither heretics nor dissent in his court, and he has retaliated against threats real and imagined. Noblemen and rabble-rousers are brought to his fortress-palace at Versailles, kept virtual (and sometimes literal) prisoners in gilded cages. Cultural imperialism is law; every subject is taught that national unity is one's highest priority.


Keep your friends close...
+Miquelon is on the verge of an industrial revolution. Heavy-handed and brutal attempts to introduce new technologies and crops have met with some success; towns that once relied on outdated laws and petty lords are now brought into a modern fold as new farming technologies and legal canon are adopted. This is to say nothing of urban life; Miquelon's great cities are unequivocal hubs of adventure, intrigue, learning, and culture. It is a good time to be on the side of change.


...and your enemies closer.
-There is no state, only the King. The nation borders on fascism; wars are almost constant as states small and large become the target of ever-increasing wars of aggression. In the south, the neighboring Hispania has an old and feeble king. Louis plans to forcibly put a relative on the throne, giving him control of two of the most powerful nations on earth. Power is its own reward, and nobles, companies, friends, and innocents will die in droves if this plan cannot be stopped.



What do you think? I'm planning on having a section of enemies and allies for easy reference, and I figure that these guys might be at the top.



I'm also thinking the Manchu might be an interesting choice; and while highly ahistorical, some variation on the traditional Assassins might be interesting.

[sktarq]

here's a question.
Why are these places so adversarial etc.
Why do the natives choose to live in such a manner.
Very few people ever think of themselves as evil...we are all the heroes of our own life stories and all that. So the NPC's are thinking what when they do the things that lead them to be that "bad guy" and what is the society thinking when they become the "bad guy nation"?
I figure it may help development of such places.
plus there is the old go down the list of things DM's may want to have in games like Necromancy, Diabolism, Frankenstein's Monster, monster/genie/spirit/demon binding, the book Lord's of Madness if you are in DnD 3.5 and figure out how they fit in your world. How could they work into a society. If presented with such opportunities could they become part of a cultural tradition that would cause others to see them as adversarial even if they were not by other standards. (a different religion that has very different feeling on undead for example but within itself makes sense and could be argued as moral)

[Trickquestion]

I have found myself in a similar situation to yours- my latest campaign is homebrewed from scratch, and I've been extensively developing the nations and politics of the world, as my players are fond of interfering with the political establishment wherever they end up.:smallsmile:

When it comes to "bad guy" nations, there are three that are a darker shade of moral gray then the rest of the world.

Dractopia: A nation populated almost entirely by Kobolds, but ruled by a royal family of red dragons. I knew early on I wanted to transform the Kobolds from canon fodder into a super power, so I looked at the things Kobolds are traditionally good at: mining, trap making and dragon worship. The first two struck me as indicative of an industries attitude. So in this world, Dractopia is the most technologically advanced country in the world, with sprawling factories and deep mines. They lack the military capability to invade other nations, but have a great deal of political power due to two factors: No nation can afford not to do business with them, allowing their secret agents and state funded criminal networks to operate with a great deal of leeway, and their nation is extremely well fortified with traps. About a hundred years before the campaign starts, 400 paladins and a couple dozen wizards/clerics set off to try to dethrone the red dragon royal family. The Kobolds had cut them apart with guerilla warfare before they even set sight on the capital.

Lizardfolk Empires: Another canon fodder race I wanted to make politically powerful, the Lizardfolk carved prosperous, competing city states out of harsh jungles, and have adopted a number of cruel policies, including slavery and necromancy, to survive in the disease ridden, monster packed jungle. Their ultimate goal is to expand beyond the harshness of their jungle home, no matter what country they have to crush to achieve this.

Juptoria: A Roman themed totalitarian state that places cultural unity and expansion above all else. This is the nation that the party starts off in, so to give the players as many options as possible during character creation. The country was founded by humans, hobgoblins, and kenkus (which form a sort of rouge-fighter-mage triad) and assimilate any species into their ranks... whether those species want it or not.

[EccentricOwl]

Hm hm hm! You definitely bring up some good questions here.

I think you know the feeling, then. Players just need someone or something that they can rally behind. I don't have a problem with it.

That said, I do agree with your desire to add some more moral grayness, especially in a setting that's supposed to feel semi-historical. I love your ideas about Kobolds especially. :)

Very cool. Especially the part about 'resorting to cruelty to avoid destruction'. Very interesting.