Swift Hunter Dervish: help a NOOB

[tintin_man]

I am currently playing in my first ever roleplaying game and it is D&D 3.5. We have been playing once every few months for about a year and all of our characters are sitting at level 8 about to advance to level 9. I have built a human Urban Ranger 4/Scout 3/Dervish 1. Instead of the animal companion, I went with distracting attack from PH2 as our group had a rogue and my animal companion would be terrible as I'm not going to have a ton of levels in ranger.

I'm mostly wondering how I should advance at this point, especially for level progression and feat selection. All books are available to use since we are all brand new and don't know about all the broken stuff (yet). I'm starting to get there I think...

My dervish is a dual scimitar one. My feats so far are Weapon Focus (scimitar), Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise; the bare minimum to become a Dervish.

My planned level progression is;
9-10: dervish 2-3
11: scout 4
12-13: ranger 5-6
14-20: dervish 4-10

My planned feat progression is;
9: swift hunter
11 (bonus): improved skirmish
12: knowledge devotion
15: greater two weapon fighting
18: is a toss up between a few

However, I'm wondering if this order of progression makes sense. I wanted to get more dances/day as early as possible to make use of this awesome ability, but I also want to get better two-weapon fighting to really take advantage of the full attack actions. The other problem is, the dervish really constantly gets so much better the higher the level. The big advantage to this is I never lose a BAB bonus again and have good save progression. Bad news is I never get evasion which seems like a really good ability. Would scout 6/ranger 4 be better and take a two-handed weapon instead (halberd or guisarme?)

Also, I've heard many good things about the "elusive target" feat and was originally very keen on taking it, but there are so many other good feats to take that I wanted to take first, that I'm not sure if it will be worth by the time I take it. Same goes for "close quarters fighting" which I've heard is almost mandatory for melee classes.

Basically, the feats I am tossing up in the air right now are:
elusive target
deadly defence
close quarters fighting
improved critical (scimitars)
acrobatic strike

My character is also the knowledge base since no one else seems to invest skill points and I like to contribute somehow to the party. I figured all of these points in knowledges along with the "collector of stories" trick would be fantastic for the party AND knowledge devotion. Am I incorrect in this assessment?

I'm also wondering what are some good magic items I should potentially be looking for. Right now I've got +1 mithral breastplate and some gloves of dexterity (+2).

I guess basically what I want to know is, will my character be useful in the long run since I have no idea what to expect from this game since we are all brand new!

Thanks!

[Person_Man]

Welcome! It's a great game, with a lot of crunchy options. Some are better then others. People are going to throw a lot (sometimes conflicting) advice at you. Pick whatever seems best to you, and try it out.

First, what books and or other material (Dragon Magazines, online material, homebrew, etc) is available to you?

Second, what is your build goal? In other words, apart from any specific class combination or Feats, what do you want your character to be able to do?

[Darrin]

My planned level progression is;
9-10: dervish 2-3
11: scout 4
12-13: ranger 5-6
14-20: dervish 4-10


Looks fine, although I might quibble around with taking Ranger 5-6 before Dervish 2-3, because I think Spring Attack is a complete and utter waste of time in a TWF build, but that's just my personal feelings. Get your hands on some Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, Magic Item Compendium), and that'll tide you over on Improved TWF for the time being. Getting 2 more levels of Scout/Ranger ups your Skirmish damage 1d6, but depending on how optimized your group is, this may not be the most pressing issue. Getting dervish dance 2/day may work better for you.



My planned feat progression is;
9: swift hunter
11 (bonus): improved skirmish
12: knowledge devotion


Consider taking Scout 4 next. You can use the Scout's bonus feat to pick up Swift Hunter, and take Improved Skirmish as your 9th level feat.

At 12th level... Hmm. I was going to say consider taking Travel Devotion instead, as this gives you 10 rounds of move + full attack 1/day. However, you make a good case for putting ranks in Knowledge, and TWF needs to take its bonus damage wherever it can find it, so... looks fine.



15: greater two weapon fighting
18: is a toss up between a few


I like to prioratize Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) after Improved TWF, but you'd have to pick up Combat Reflexes from somewhere.



Bad news is I never get evasion which seems like a really good ability.


Well, Evasion is only one Scout level away, if you want to get it from there, but you lose a little BAB and might have to give up Ranger 6. There are other ways to get evasion: Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra (from Magic of Incarnum), or just buy a Ring of Evasion, but dang that thing is expensive (25K GP). I'd say stick with Ranger 6 and save up for the ring.



Would scout 6/ranger 4 be better and take a two-handed weapon instead (halberd or guisarme?)


Greatsword is going to outperform the halberd on average (7 damage instead of 5.5). For your offhand, armor spikes work just fine. Guisarme, however, is a reach weapon, which complicates things for TWF unless your offhand weapon also has reach... this can be done, but probably not with your particular build (kusari-gama is a light one-handed reach weapon, but you'd have to add another hand somewhere... Dragon Tail + Prehensile Tail would work, but you'd have to go Dragonborn of Bahumat and rework your feats to make room for it).



Also, I've heard many good things about the "elusive target" feat and was originally very keen on taking it, but there are so many other good feats to take that I wanted to take first, that I'm not sure if it will be worth by the time I take it.


I'd advise against Elusive Target. It doesn't really offer all that much to a TWF build. It has three options. The first one is only useful if your DM likes to use Power Attack against you a lot, and you have to be lucky enough to pick the right Dodge target before he Power Attacks you. The second option requires you to be flanked and again be lucky enough to pick the right Dodge target... not sure how often you'll ever get to use that one. The third option is "Cause Overreach", which is indeed awesomesauce, but it works best in a trip-oriented build, which you don't really have right now, nor do you really have room for adding Improved Trip until later.



Same goes for "close quarters fighting" which I've heard is almost mandatory for melee classes.


Skip it. The grapple rules are so obtuse, most DMs just don't bother to have enemies grapple, even when it might actually be effective. Anklets of Translocation (1400 GP, Magic Item Compendium) make for a much more effective anti-grapple strategy: teleport out of the grapple with a swift action, then full attack your assailant with sharp pointy stuff until they stop moving.



Basically, the feats I am tossing up in the air right now are:
elusive target
close quarters fighting


Already addressed.



deadly defence


-2 attack penalty for +3.5 damage... that's kinda lousy, even for TWF. Dragonfire Strike might be better: +1d6 fire damage, and no attack penalty. Requires the Dragonblood type... did you mention what your race was? Probably won't work for human, unless you're already a Silverbrow Human.



improved critical (scimitars)


Is the DM being a tightwad with loot? I'd try buying Keen scimitars first, but TWF has an irksome "pay double" penalty that can make this a little harder than it should be.



acrobatic strike


Meh. I think I'd still rather have Double Hit.



My character is also the knowledge base since no one else seems to invest skill points and I like to contribute somehow to the party. I figured all of these points in knowledges along with the "collector of stories" trick would be fantastic for the party AND knowledge devotion. Am I incorrect in this assessment?


Sounds good to me. Stay frosty.



I'm also wondering what are some good magic items I should potentially be looking for.


Um... yeah... still working on that section of the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585#post15034585)...

Something to consider ASAP:

Put a Wand Chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) in each scimitar, get a wand of instant of power (750 GP, Forge of War, Dru/Rgr 1 spell) and a wand of blades of fire (750 GP, Spell Compendium, Rgr/Sor/Wiz 1 spell).

The Sudden Stunning and Caustic/Fiery/Icy/Lightning Surges in DMGII are fantastic bargains: +2000 GP each.

[pilvento]

I likr your build, a lot. regardless of the order, ranger6/scout4 is the standard for the swift hunter since you get the most from BaB and bonus Feats.

If your Str score is high you can ad weapon rend, but your choices are more than solid, improved crit can be replaced by an enchant, elusive target is an excelent feat, but since its your last feat i recomend you wait till that moment to pick it so you can addapt to the things you will face in the last lvls.

[tintin_man]

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful and certainly something to keep in mind.

The reason for the delay on scout 4 was two-fold; one, my scout has a lot of knowledge skills that I can boost up to a higher level (potentially) for knowledge devotion. Secondly, I want to boost my disable device and search skills as high as possible since I'm the parties trap finder with our rogue out.

I don't think I have the feats for double strike (or whatever it is). The main reason for deadly defense is that I can fight defensively for a -4 penalty but add +7 to my AC (+2 defensive fighting, +1 5 ranks tumble, +4 dervish ability) and 1d6 damage to each scimitar strike I make, which can be a lot by that point! Then, if I really need too, I can stack combat expertise. Is bumping AC by 7 not enough to be worthwhile? Again, don't know what to expect later on; we've mostly fought humanoids or small animal crap.

Good, now I don't feel so bad about not wanting to take elusive target!

I think I'll stick with my build order then!

[gorfnab]

Here is a basic Dervish Build I have had some minor success with.

Human Scout 5/ Ranger 2/ Dervish 10/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge or regular Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (decent as usual), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Improved Buckler Defense (nice AC boost, take a few levels earlier if necessary), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), Flay Foe, or Nemesis (great for Arcane Hunter ACF)

The last level of Dervish can be dumped if necessary (A Thousand Cuts is 1/day anyways) for a level of Whirling Frenzy (UA) Spiritual Totem: Lion (CC) Barbarian (take the Barbarian level at level 8 before entering Dervish). This then means you could take Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy) as your 18th level feat (or at 12 or 15 if you move Swift Hunter and GTWF around).

[tintin_man]

I don't understand why you would bother with a buckler while playing a dervish; it uses up valuable feats for a character that needs them and you can't use the dervish's dance ability while having a shield. Unless I am mistaken, the buckler does count as a shield. Do you just choose to "not" use the buckler then while dancing? As in, you don't get the bonus to your AC but it's still attached to your arm?

While on the subject, would an animated shield stop you from doing dervish dances? It would be pretty handy to have that and much easier to get than a buckler with the feat requirement.

[Darrin]

I don't understand why you would bother with a buckler while playing a dervish; it uses up valuable feats for a character that needs them and you can't use the dervish's dance ability while having a shield. Unless I am mistaken, the buckler does count as a shield. Do you just choose to "not" use the buckler then while dancing? As in, you don't get the bonus to your AC but it's still attached to your arm?


Improved Buckler Defense uses "can" and "may", so presumably you do have the option to take the feat, wear a buckler, and then decide not to use the shield bonus. But other than loading up on cheaper Armor enhancements, I can't see any benefit that would result from doing so.

A Dervish loses their AC bonus if the "carry" a shield. Presumably, that means even if they carry a buckler and decide not to use it, they would still lose their AC bonus.

Dervish Dance doesn't use the word "carry", it says "using a shield", so presumably you could carry a buckler, decide not to use it, and still Dervish Dance. However, you'd lose your AC Bonus and incur an additional -1 attack penalty on top of your TWF penalties.



While on the subject, would an animated shield stop you from doing dervish dances? It would be pretty handy to have that and much easier to get than a buckler with the feat requirement.

From the SRD/DMG:

"an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands"

Since you count as "using" an animated shield, you would lose your AC Bonus and the ability to Dervish Dance.

I would recommend using a Dastana instead, as it doesn't count as shield, but still stacks with your base armor bonus. Dastana can be found in the Arms & Equipment Guide or Oriental Adventures.

There's also the Chahar-Aina (in OA but not A&EG), but it's not clear if this counts as wearing medium armor (or if a mithral version would count as light).