So, I made a big DM mistake...

[pwykersotz]

In my game yesterday, I made a large mistake. I assumed I had a handle on what my players could do. They were facing a projected image of the BBEG who used disjunction. The idea behind using it was that in the campaign, they are at a place where replacing their lost gear is easy and to give them an idea about what kind of final fight they should be expecting and what kind of defenses to prepare.

Unfortunately, since this was a hit and run by the BBEG, I didn't fully prepare the spell list. I kind of handwaved it for the time. So Disjunction was used, and it turned out that one of my players had an item that could one-time counterspell it.

I froze.

A simple hit and run that smashed into a defense I was not expecting meant that this was going to turn into an actual fight with no prepared spell list for the boss. In character, the boss would also not have run away. With the hit and run tactic destroyed, she would have torn into the party immediately with full power. I wasn't ready. I had many good options to take to resolve this...I didn't take a good option.

I said *cringe* that the counterspell didn't work. The party was instantly aware that they were being railroaded, which was completely true despite it not being my intention when starting the game. The hit and run succeeded, and they lost half their items.

Now, to put it clearly, they are great players and I usually do very well with not railroading them. I like to make their decisions matter and not give my bad guys plot armor. Or the characters for that matter. If I offered to retcon the situation though and let it be redone from the point where the counterspell happened, they would just smile and say what's done is done and move on. They're still annoyed, but they'll let it pass. The problem is, I feel like I owe them more than that, and this is really bugging me because it was such a bad call.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what to do both IC and OOC other than apologizing to them?

[AntiTrust]

What item did the player use to counter it?

[Equinox]

Redo the boss' character properly, and offer them a mulligan. "Look, guys, I screwed up. The counterspell should have worked" (do not elaborate further. They don't need all the inner workings of your mistake). "So, I'd like to offer you a choice: either we rewind to that moment, or we say screw it, let's just play on. Your call."

[supervillan]

If your players are cool with the retcon, let it go at that.

It wouldn't be a terrible decision by the BBEG to leg it when her hit-and-run tactic meets with an unexpected counter. You weren't expecting it - so your BBEG wasn't either. Assuming the projected image didn't actually cost anything of note, it's a logically consistent response to the failure of the disjunction to terminate the attack, go home and think again.

[Segev]

Alright. First, unless you feel harm would be done by making the offer, DO make the offer.

If for any reason (either feeling harm would be done, or them refusing the offer) the thing is not retconned, come up with why they couldn't counterspell it.

Make it something they can research and a) learn to thwart and b) possibly use, themselves. Come up with rules for how it works (both fluff and crunch, with fluff perhaps being most important if you're okay with players using IC logic to create warped mechanics).


Alternatively...do they have an Artifact on them, by any chance? Anythign that could secretly have been an Artifact, perhaps which messed with their counterspell trick?

Have that Artifact have been disjoined, and the NPC now be, unbeknownst to the PCs, utterly without her spellcasting powers. The party can learn about the Artifact and what its importance was, maybe make a side- or continuation-quest built around restoring it.

The NPC villainess obviously has some tricks that keep her from being utterly defeated by this turn, but she's diminished. Perhaps she's now bluffing her formerly-cowed minions, or maybe she's having to find other ways to do things while relying on magic items that she can still use (i.e. not spell completion or spell trigger things). IF needs be, she got away because of a Contingency she'd already had set up. Perhaps it wasn't quite meant for this instance, but it triggered because losing her spellcasting powers while facing angry adventurers fell into its trigger conditions.


Either can work. Either can disrupt your plot if you don't work carefully with it. The latter can, particularly, unless you've got means for her to achieve her narrative role (or room for somebody else to) without her spellcasting. I admit, I'm kind-of fascinated by the concept of a spellcaster villain who's lost spellcasting capability and has to rely on much diminished resources. And "enemy mine" situation could evolve, if her getting back her powers through MacGuffin questline coincides with some other goal the PCs must pursue "for the greater good."

[Darkhope]

Segev is right. Your the DM, your flawless. Everything you say is law. Your BBEG came in, Disjoined, and left. The players think it was you railroading them. Fine, let them think that. But like Segev said, when they encounter the BBEG again they will learn why the counterspell didn't work. Maybe the BBEg that had an item on him that let him counterspell as a swift action the PC's counterspell. Maybe an invisible ally came with the BBEG that counterspelled the PC's counterspell. There are plenty of things you can come up with to focus the PC's anger from you to the BBEG.

Not to long ago in my EPIC game my players got in a fight with Manshoon and Fzoul Chembryl. I had both of them fully stat'd out, custom items, summoned monsters, memorized and prepared spells, the works. Manshoon was hovering with a fly spell launching attacks at the party. It was the longest fight I've ever ran. The party wizard squared off with Manshoon and they went toe to toe casting 2-3 spells a round for about 10 rounds. In the end 2 party members were dead, all were injured, but they only had little spells left that could no way kill each other. So manshoon flew away. But a spell he had up during the fight was Greater Globe of Invulnerability. (An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere.) The PC said wait he can't move! without missing a beat I said for some reason he can. Then a round later he planeshifted away in a Dimensional Locked area. Yet again, for some reason he could. Now the PC's respected the fight and enjoyed it thoroughly, they want to fight him again even though they got what they needed from the fight already and don't need to. Just to "finish" him.

Anytime you get caught as a DM doing something that shouldn't be possible always remember, I guarantee you there is an item, ability, class feature, racial ability, feat, skill check, or enhanced ability through wish or miracle that can make it possible in game. Your flawless man, DM that way :)

On a side note, if you feel guilty, when they eventually take out the BBEG and learn why the counterspell didn't work, reward them with some extra treasure, or extra fame. Maybe an order of beautiful virgin women vowed to stay virgins till the BBEG was defeated and give themselves over to the PC's for life as servants! There are other rewards besides treasure!

[nedz]

You should have just had the BBEG cast Disjunction again the next round, ..., well too late now.

I'm not sure how you get out of this other than to concoct some method for the events to lie as they are. I wouldn't re-run since the moment has gone.

[Asteron]

Segev is right. Your the DM, your flawless. Everything you say is law. Your BBEG came in, Disjoined, and left. The players think it was you railroading them. Fine, let them think that. But like Segev said, when they encounter the BBEG again they will learn why the counterspell didn't work. Maybe the BBEg that had an item on him that let him counterspell as a swift action the PC's counterspell. Maybe an invisible ally came with the BBEG that counterspelled the PC's counterspell. There are plenty of things you can come up with to focus the PC's anger from you to the BBEG.

Not to long ago in my EPIC game my players got in a fight with Manshoon and Fzoul Chembryl. I had both of them fully stat'd out, custom items, summoned monsters, memorized and prepared spells, the works. Manshoon was hovering with a fly spell launching attacks at the party. It was the longest fight I've ever ran. The party wizard squared off with Manshoon and they went toe to toe casting 2-3 spells a round for about 10 rounds. In the end 2 party members were dead, all were injured, but they only had little spells left that could no way kill each other. So manshoon flew away. But a spell he had up during the fight was Greater Globe of Invulnerability. (An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere.) The PC said wait he can't move! without missing a beat I said for some reason he can. Then a round later he planeshifted away in a Dimensional Locked area. Yet again, for some reason he could. Now the PC's respected the fight and enjoyed it thoroughly, they want to fight him again even though they got what they needed from the fight already and don't need to. Just to "finish" him.

Anytime you get caught as a DM doing something that shouldn't be possible always remember, I guarantee you there is an item, ability, class feature, racial ability, feat, skill check, or enhanced ability through wish or miracle that can make it possible in game. Your flawless man, DM that way :)

On a side note, if you feel guilty, when they eventually take out the BBEG and learn why the counterspell didn't work, reward them with some extra treasure, or extra fame. Maybe an order of beautiful virgin women vowed to stay virgins till the BBEG was defeated and give themselves over to the PC's for life as servants! There are other rewards besides treasure!

I can't accurately express how much I hate this attitude... If you can find a group of players that that works for, then good on you. Personally, I like a little more integrity and humility in my DM's. If you make a mistake, be grown-up enough to admit it. To do otherwise runs the risk of losing your players' trust. I couldn't take a thing such a DM said seriously...

OP,

If your players are good enough to accept such an apology and move on, then do so. It sounds like this may have even opened up a new wrinkle in the campaign. Play that up and they will likely enjoy it...

[Segev]

Just to emphasize, the point of my post was not to say to cover up anything. Definitely talk to the players if you think it won't harm anything. But the way to handle it in-game, if it's not retconned, is to make it something that is not a unique advantage only the NPC can get. Instead, figure out what caused it, and then let the PCs discover and, possibly, use it themselves in the future.

But if the party instead decides to take you up on your offer to retcon it...hey. That works too. It's good that you recognize the mistake and wish to fix it. "Fixing" it just has two possible approaches, as long as you maintain that communication and trust between you and your players.

[gurgleflep]

Would they be up for something like re-doing that bit with a fully prepared spell list? I've actually had days where they made it further than I anticipated and I told them flat-out that in the event of something like that happening, we may "go back in time" to do things with proper preparation.

Edit: Equinox has the right idea - also, ninja'd.

[pilvento]

The DM has to do only one thing, entertain.

You dont need to be original, you dont need to do it all by the book, you only need to focus to make the players have fun, lots and lots of it.

If your players are having fun, you will have fun too.

[dascarletm]

Here is my thoughts on this.

As a player, if I bought some item that acted as an "Oh Sh**" button, once, then when a perfect opportunity to use said item came along and the BBEG just handwove it away I'd be dissapointed. I'd think it'd be more rewarding for the BBEG to be fallible and be countered by something I had.

[John Longarrow]

pwykersotz

Since you didn't fully stat out the BBEG, could one of the following have happened if you had?

1) BBEG just blew their get out of jail once card. They used their avoid any from the deck of many things.

2) Their contingent counter disjunction kicked, and they'll have to redo it. A fairly reasonable personal defense for a BBEG, like having their personal true reincarnation that trips after their remains teleport away when they are killed.

3) BBEG no longer has the services of a specific outer planar being because it did its job and made sure the BBEG's projected Image functioned just fine.

Since you didn't have the BBEG stated out and you just went with it, you can consider this as assigning some of the BBEGs stats/abilities. I know I've had to do that a couple times on the fly when the PCs went past where I'd finished designing...

[Vizzerdrix]

BBEG had a one time artifact of Disjunction. Now make it up to them with cake and a roflstomp through a silly fun dungeon,.

[Krobar]

Let this be a lesson. Always have every bad guy statted out in full before you bring him

I too learned this lesson the hard way.

[thefirecrack3r]

Have the BBEG run away, leaving behind loot of some sort. You reward your players for their quick thinking by countering the spell. They'll be less sore about the bad guy escaping if he left a chunk of his hoard behind. Everyone wins! They got some goodies, and you get out of there without looking like too much of a 'tard. I had a similar situation where the big bad defeated baddy was going to be brought back as a 'corpse creature' but the players lopped off his head and torched his body to celebrate their victory. I was just sitting there going "****..." in the end I had to let it go, It wouldn't have felt right to bring him back as a ghost. Think I'm going to have his son come back later...sometimes you gotta roll with the punches. PC's can do some unexpected ****.

[Firebug]

The BBEG had a greater metamagic rod of twin spell, right? Twin spell is +4 spell levels, and Quicken Spell is also +4. Quicken metamagic rod exists, so why not twin? Custom item for a custom BBEG.

The first disjunction would be countered, but the second wouldn't have. And you can have it as treasure for them when they win.

[The Oni]

In my experience, when players pull something off and the DM just says "no, because no," nobody's happy; not the players, and not the DM.

If you really needed to do this for plot reasons, give them something at least. I like the idea of the villainess being depowered (especially because the official game flavor works alongside it) and I think if you spin it the right way your party may be really impressed.

Is she the Vain Sorceress type? Have her enlist some kind of fiendish aid so she can "fake" casting spells and preserve face. If the party can ID that her powers aren't really her own, maybe they can disrupt whatever kind of bond she's using to keep the demon in check. From there you could either do the noble thing and simply arrest her or banish her - she'd be pretty harmless sans spells and the trappings of leadership. And not being taken seriously would probably be the ultimate punishment for that kind of villain. Alternately if the party's feeling less Cruel Mercy and more Righteous Vengeance, you could let the demon eat her face and Planeshift out.

If she's the more practical type, replace the boss encounter with her (depowered), her elite personal guard, and some manner of arcane superweapon. But you can still have her really lose her cool in front of the party for having wrecked her powers 'n ****. Also the party gets to keep the superweapon (I would suggest a friendly ridable golem. Because why not.)

[Segev]

If you're going to have the PCs have a solid opportunity to confront her in person and deal her a minor defeat, the Twin Greater Metamagic Rod is a good idea. Make sure that she is forced somehow to leave it behind for them to take as loot. You may not even need to tell them that's how she did it; let them put it together as fridge logic, and they'll feel clever for recognizing it.

[Tulya]

A twinned spell is still just one spell being cast. Every printing of the metamagic feat explicitly describes being countered in full by counterspelling, rather than just one half of the twinned effects.

[Segev]

Well, in that case, it must've been a Metamagic Quicken rod. She initially just cast normally, saw that it failed, and Quickened a second casting in that same moment of panic that had you say "it goes off anyway."

[Ailowynn]

Is "she was actually an illusion" an option?

If not, just tell them what you told us, and that you won't do that again.

[Yawgmoth]

Segev is right. Your the DM, your flawless. Everything you say is law. WRONG.
1. You should read this entire thing: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling
2. This is exactly the attitude that gets you left in your basement reading alone because no one will play with you. Adversarial DMing died long ago, and is the sole reason necromancy is illegal in many states.

OP: comp to freezing up worse than an i486 trying to run Crysis, offer them a mulligan or to press on or to offer up suggestions. Communicate with your players. Learn from this mistake. Talk to your players, and listen to what they have to say. So many problems can be fixed utterly and complete just from a bit of active communication.

[pwykersotz]

So, to follow up on this, thank you everyone for your suggestions. It was one of those situations that I knew how to fix for my group, but the positive feedback really helped.

I ended up not offering a redo, too much had happened since that moment. A replay would have changed things in such a way that would have turned our next session into either a boring redo, or else a tedious slog to get back to where they had already gotten to.

I did, however, apologize to them and let them know the exact reasons for what I did. To those of you who suggested I play it off and keep it behind the screen, it might have been an option if I had been smoother in running it, but I didn't say "Your counterspell surges out, but is overwhelmed by the force of the disjunction" or anything even remotely flowery, I just said "No, that won't work". Hiding it wasn't really an option. I pulled it off badly.

And yes, just like I knew they would be, they were cool about it. It was just one of those situations where I felt terrible anyway. I try really hard to not be adversarial and to let them have victories they earn, but this one just got away from me for whatever reason.

I think I will take up Vizzerdrix's idea though, and give them a fun roflstomp dungeon for now. And the next time they use their counterspell, I'll be ready to actually let it do its thing.

[Dark.Revenant]

In the future, you can get the best of both worlds by making **** up as you go.

Let me explain by giving an example of what you could have done in this situation:

DM: With his mighty bellow of power, the air shimmers and warps as the magic around you is simply torn asunder, disjoined from its anchor to reality.
Player: Counterspell!
DM: He screams, throwing even more power into the spell as your item's magics attempt to disrupt the casting. [Roll d20 behind the screen, look at die, and frown.] But for all the power and preparation you have, in the end the disjunction rips through your ward and crushes the magic around you. However, to your satisfaction, as your blackened ring falls to ashes, you notice that it was successful in shielding its master; your equipment was saved.

The player gets some benefit, it works in-RP, and you didn't have to stat a boss mid-fight.